Ashravan the Returned

[Pagerunner he/him]

I noticed a parallel between Ashravan, the titular Emperor in The Emperor's Soul, and the Returned on Nalthis. (Props to @dragonshadowbob for sparking the thought with this thread.) It looks like Ashravan's soul went Beyond, and Shai's Forgery made a new soul for him, redrawing the Connections that Ashravan had in his life using her soulstamps to make a soul that would replace his mind.

I've suspected something like this happens with the Returned in Warbreaker. They don't have the memories of their past life at first because the soul for that person has gone Beyond, and it's a Divine Breath that takes its place. It will reanimate the body, but it needs to rebuild the Connections that the soul has before it can access the memories.

Just like Shai's work was discovering who Ashravan was close to and why he did what he did, Lightsong discovered his past while he explored his Connection with his past, with his family. The Connections need to be fully rebuilt to repair the memories and have the new, artifical soul replace the old one.

However, these artificial souls don't stick very well to the bodies. They require a constant source of Investiture to be maintained - Ashravan needed to be stamped every day, and the Returned need to consume a breath every week. Without that, the Investiture that makes up the artificial soul will separate from the body, and the person will die again.

So, I think that the original Lightsong, the original Vasher, etc. all went Beyond after their conversations with Endowment. The Returned themselves don't actually return... the Divine Breaths are artificial souls implanted in their bodies to replace them as they go Beyond.

Oh, and that's the same thing that happens to a lesser extent with Lifeless. The new soul isn't trying to replace the old soul, and there's no intelligence, so there's nothing to reject. But it can slowly rebuild Connections naturally, if the Lifeless builds Connections of its own that are natural reflections of the host body. (Like if Arsteel's Lifeless body stuck with his old comrades...)

[Spoolofwhool]

I guess this also explains how the Divine Breaths are considered splinters since they are the source of consciousness which Returned have. Nice thoughts. I think I saw someone else talk about this very thing some time earlier though, but can't remember who.

[Yata he/him]

Actually a Forgery is more likely to a Lifeless than a Returned....of course the mechanic is different (A Forgery is really more refined).

I actually have some problems with the idea of the Divine Breath who emulates the Returned's soul (and they are the same of other similar topic):

- Endowment actually ask the people if they want to Return, if she simply uses the body with a Soul replacement. there is no need of this.

- A lifeless is a "worse soul" and still he has no need of a weekly Breath to keep moving

- A Returned may suppress his/her Divine Breath....if the Divine Breath is actually your soul you can't suppress it.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Yata

[Darkness he/him]

I agree with Yata. The scene with Lightsong Returning is indicative of the process. Finally found it:

The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more  deadly—even—than the Manywar. He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity. To Return.

Sounds like it's the soul Returning to its own body, and Breath just facilitates that process. I'm sure the spirit web is altered somewhat (maybe that causes the memory loss), but I think it's still the same soul. Kind of parallel's Kelsier's return (supposedly through hemalurgy) if so.

[Sitroentje]

But that scene is from his cognitive aspect, isn't it? After he died body, soul and mind split. At that point didn't his soul already go to whereever it is that souls go after death. The mind stays for a while in the cognitive realm and then goed beyond. Only when you Return your mind gets a new 'soul' in the form of a super breath and together go back to the body. 

I like this theory, I think it may be true.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Sitroentje said:

But that scene is from his cognitive aspect, isn't it? After he died body, soul and mind split. At that point didn't his soul already go to whereever it is that souls go after death. The mind stays for a while in the cognitive realm and then goed beyond. Only when you Return your mind gets a new 'soul' in the form of a super breath and together go back to the body. 

I like this theory, I think it may be true.

Actually in the timeframe where you are in the Cognitive Realm the Soul+Mind+Body are still connected (for example in this timeframe you may "heal" the guy. In the end resurrect him). Then you lost the tie to your body and after this soon or later (depending by your level of investiture and weird case) the Beyond pull away your Mind. I think it is the rightful moment where your Soul's Investiture is recycled.

Therefore if Endowment proposes the returning to a deadman while he is still in the cognitive. The proto-Returned has still his mind, soul and dody connected together...after this moment it's probably too late for everything.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Yata

[Argel he/him]

My understanding is that Brandon tries to avoid bringing real-world religion into his Sci-Fi/Fantasy books. So the Great Beyond is likely a one-way trip because he will likely not want to go into any details about it. It's basically a buffer zone to keep real-world religion out of his books. Like questions about an afterlife. Thanks to the CR and the SR, he can still tackle death, etc. but avoid getting into whether there is an actual afterlife or not by relegating that to the Great Beyond.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I think its similar to the scenes from SH&BoM. Kelsier still has his mind and soul but his physical ties had been severed. Where Saze talks to Wax, he says when he goes Beyond his mind/soul will return to the cosmere and the other will go elsewhere. I think with Ashraven, his soul was still there...it was just his mind had already gone, effectively making him brain dead. Perhaps his Connections/Spiritweb had been damaged/severed and that had cause his cognitive self to destabilise

[+hwiles]

16 hours ago, Argel said:

My understanding is that Brandon tries to avoid bringing real-world religion into his Sci-Fi/Fantasy books. So the Great Beyond is likely a one-way trip because he will likely not want to go into any details about it. It's basically a buffer zone to keep real-world religion out of his books. Like questions about an afterlife. Thanks to the CR and the SR, he can still tackle death, etc. but avoid getting into whether there is an actual afterlife or not by relegating that to the Great Beyond.

I think you're mostly right in that we won't be seeing the "Great Beyond" on-screen, however, I believe Sanderson has come out and confirmed that there is an afterlife in the Cosmere, and it's consistent across all of the worlds (we just won't be seeing much of it).  It's important to not derail a story with needless specifics about the validity of religions, but it's also important to not inadvertently validate the nihilism and sense of hopelessness characters can feel after experiencing great losses or defeats.  Truly a delicate balancing act.

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

I think you're mostly right in that we won't be seeing the "Great Beyond" on-screen, however, I believe Sanderson has come out and confirmed that there is an afterlife in the Cosmere

I would need to see an actual quote on that. He may have said  that he personally believes there is an afterlife in the Cosmere but not make it canon. That way e.g. someone that is spiritual-but-not-religious can interpret it in a way that said person is comfortable with. He's not validating or in-validating anything if he leaves it up to the reader's interpretation.

8 hours ago, AnanasSpren said:

I think with Ashraven, his soul was still there

We don't know:

Quote

Argel: Did Shai have to Forge a soul for Ashraven's body because his actual soul had gone to the Great Beyond?
Brandon: Rafo!  

Discussed more in (note that it is the Elantris/TES forum so be mindful of spoilers in that thread):

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Argel

[Pagerunner he/him]

Part of the reason I don't think the original soul returns to the body is because there isn't room for two souls. The definition that Brandon gave of Splinters ascribes sentience to them. Aside from the Divine Breath, the other Splinters we've seen (seons, skaze, spren) don't inhabit physical bodies, but they do have their own minds and thoughts. If the original mind is returned to the body, then where is the mind of the Divine Breath? (To parallel, Ashravan's new soul is like Nightblood; not created directly as a Splinter, but assembled using the existing magic system.)

I also want to clarify the way I'm using the terms 'mind' and 'soul,' since I don't think we have a consensus on their usage. I'm using them interchangeably, to describe the Cognitive aspect of an individual. When they die, this Cognitive aspect is 'torn' away from the body and taken Beyond, unless it has been fundamentally altered to the point where it can stay behind. It encompasses the thoughts and intelligence of an individual.

I have intentionally not used the word 'spirit' so far, since we haven't seen the Spiritual aspect of an individual. We don't know what effect death has on a person's Spiritual aspect, if it's pulled Beyond with the Cognitive aspect or not, or if it remains in the Spiritual Realm (which seems to be outside of time). The Spiritual Realm has to do with pure ideals, so it might have to do with the essence of a person, their true identity. (Or capital-I Identity, if you prefer.) Splinters (like the Divine Breath) have strong Spiritual and Cognitive aspects, but weak Physical aspects. I think that by matching Spiritual aspects, you can combine the Cognitive aspect of a Splinter with the Physical aspect of a deceased individual.

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 3:09 AM, Yata said:

Actually a Forgery is more likely to a Lifeless than a Returned....of course the mechanic is different (A Forgery is really more refined).

I actually have some problems with the idea of the Divine Breath who emulates the Returned's soul (and they are the same of other similar topic):

- Endowment actually ask the people if they want to Return, if she simply uses the body with a Soul replacement. there is no need of this.

- A lifeless is a "worse soul" and still he has no need of a weekly Breath to keep moving

- A Returned may suppress his/her Divine Breath....if the Divine Breath is actually your soul you can't suppress it.

To address your points: Endowment asking the departing Soul could be the Initiation. If they don't want their Physical and Spiritual aspects to be used, then Endowment would honor that request. Sazed wasn't able to put Elend back in his body (Vin, he could have since she was a Sliver, and she chose not to).

The constant Investiture requirement of a Splinter goes to maintaining the Spiritual aspect so that it will match with the Physical aspect. A Lifeless body is a worse soul - it doesn't have a Cognitive aspect, and it is not matching the Spiritual aspect. It's a different phenomenon - a highly refined Awakened object. I'm saying that, even though Returned might appear to be a part of Awakening, they're actually part of a larger phenomenon (which we see in The Emperor's Soul).

True, a Returned can suppress the Divine Breath so that it cannot be sensed with life Sense and it won't change nearby colors. But exactly how does that happen? It's a secret that we'll learn in the sequel. It might not be the same way that Vivenna hid her breaths in the shawl.

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:41 AM, AnanasSpren said:

I think its similar to the scenes from SH&BoM. Kelsier still has his mind and soul but his physical ties had been severed. Where Saze talks to Wax, he says when he goes Beyond his mind/soul will return to the cosmere and the other will go elsewhere. I think with Ashraven, his soul was still there...it was just his mind had already gone, effectively making him brain dead. Perhaps his Connections/Spiritweb had been damaged/severed and that had cause his cognitive self to destabilize

I'll have to re-read up on those BoM scenes, since my terminology might not be accurate. (I laid out above how I'm using the terms, with mind/soul referring to the Cognitive aspect, and spirit referring to the Spiritual aspect.) But the concepts we're getting down to are the same thing - Cognitive had moved beyond, needed to be replaced. Kelsier is basically a spren right now; he has his mind, he has his spirit, but he doesn't have a body. There's been speculation he'll use Hemalurgy to return (or maybe even Return, since that's the theme of the thread), and it could still be through matching up the Spiritual aspects. Except, he'll be working it the other way around - spiking a Physical body to alter its Spiritual aspect.

[Lightning he/him]

Here are some reasons why I believe that the returned are the same souls.

1. When someone dies, their soul does not immediately go beyond.  We have many, many examples.

Spoiler

Vin talks to Sazed and Kelsier after her death before going beyond, Kelsier sticks around for a long time, Wax talks to Sazed who sends him back, the Lord Ruler acts arrogantly before moving on, etc...

2. The returned come back to their bodies quite soon after death.  Lightsong's body was pulled out of the ocean, and then he came back.

3. The returned have memories of being given the opportunity to return, or to pass on.

4. They are called the returned.  ;-)

5. And here is my theory about their memories:

Spoiler

Just as there are commands to make people forget (as was done, mercifully, for that little girl who had been kidnapped), I believe that the returned are given that command so they don't immediately remember their previous lives.

To change subjects:  With respect to Ashravan, I don't think his soul ever left, because I don't think he ever died.  His body was healed before that happened.  However, in the process of healing his wounds, his physical mind was made blank.

It would be like being in a medically-induced coma.  You are not conscious, but you are not dead, and your spirit has not left.  You can be brought out of the coma without needing a new soul.  Similarly, Ashravan could be brought back to consciousness if they had the technology to return his brain to its previous state.  The best they could do was forge it to a state quite similar to its previous state.

[Pagerunner he/him]

@Argel, @hwiles, I found some old stuff on the TWG archive (1, 2), from a 2008 Q&A. Brandon said he didn't want to go into detail about what happened to characters like Vin, Elend, or even Goradel as they went into the afterlife. But, he also said then that he might never lock down what happened to Vin/Elend after they died, and that the door could be open for their return if readers liked to envision it that way. This seems wholly incompatible with Secret History; but not if the original question has to do with how readers view the trilogy, not the implications of that trilogy on the larger, hidden cosmology. However, he does say that something happens to souls after they move Beyond the Three Realms; but not even Sazed knows what it is.

So, I think something that fit well with the context at the time (imagine the future of the characters and their experience in the afterlife as you see fit, dear reader) loses its punch as Brandon fills in the mystery with further books.

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

12 minutes ago, Lightning said:

1. When someone dies, their soul does not immediately go beyond.  We have many, many examples.

All of your examples have one trait in common that allows them to persist after death: they are Invested. This does not necessarily apply to Ashravan (back to the original topci). I see no evidence that he is Invested, and thus he may not stick around all that long after dying. As for the Nalthians who Return, they would likely stick around a little longer due to their Breath giving them a little extra Innate Investiture. I'm not sure how this would apply to Drabs, but I can't find any WoB specifically asking about Drabs Returning. This WoB does suggest a Lifeless could Return though, so I don't see why a Drab couldn't Return.

Unrelated but now I'm curious as to what happens to the Breath(s) that a person had before they died if they choose to Return. It doesn't seem like Returned have access to those Breaths, but we don't have specific information either way.

[Lightning he/him]

6 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

All of your examples have one trait in common that allows them to persist after death: they are Invested. This does not necessarily apply to Ashravan (back to the original topci). I see no evidence that he is Invested, and thus he may not stick around all that long after dying.

Whether or not you are right that investiture is necessary to persist for any amount of time after death, this is irrelevant in Ashravan's case since, as I mentioned, he never actually died.  He had a head wound, which was healed, with unfortunate side affects.

Spoiler

On whether investiture is necessary, it was my impression from Secret History that Leras, and now Sazed, talk to all souls who die before they move on.  On the other hand, it was my impression that to be sapient in the Cosmere you needed some amount of investiture (even Drabs have a little).

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Lightning

[Yata he/him]

@BeskarKomrk @Lightning There is something you made me think.

Maybe there is a features of Sel we are forgetting...:The Ravaging Dor in the Cognitive.

What a poor and quite defenceless Cognitive Projection may do aganist a Storm of Power as the Dor is ? It's possible that on Sel the "safe time" after death is really short or there isn't any of it ? Is a Soul forced almost in an istant in the Beyond or be permanently harmed ?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu he/him]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

@BeskarKomrk @Lightning There is something you made me think.

Maybe there is a features of Sel we are forgetting...:The Ravaging Dor in the Cognitive.

What a poor and quite defenceless Cognitive Projection may do aganist a Storm of Power as the Dor is ? It's possible that on Sel the "safe time" after death is really short or there isn't any of it ? Is a Soul forced almost in an istant in the Beyond or be permanently harmed ?

Can they even go Beyond, or are they instantly ripped apart first?  He's implied that in the past, but not after the idea of the Beyond had really been introduced, so it may only apply to travel via the Pool instead of the Cognitive Aspect heading to the Beyond after death.

jW

[Yata he/him]

52 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Can they even go Beyond, or are they instantly ripped apart first?  He's implied that in the past, but not after the idea of the Beyond had really been introduced, so it may only apply to travel via the Pool instead of the Cognitive Aspect heading to the Beyond after death.

jW

Well the Elantrian have some Advanced Realmatic knowledge and they used to send thing/people in the ravaging Dor...Or they are sadists-masochists or they can still reach the Beyond

[Argel he/him]

The emperor received a crossbow bolt to the head. I suppose a coma is possible, but more likely he died from the wound and his body was healed soon enough afterwards to repair it but not soon enough to prevent the soul from leaving. We know that Nale had mere seconds to resurrect Szeth. I covered this more in the thread I linked to above.

 

On 9/27/2016 at 10:30 AM, Pagerunner said:

I also want to clarify the way I'm using the terms 'mind' and 'soul,' since I don't think we have a consensus on their usage. I'm using them interchangeably, to describe the Cognitive aspect of an individual. When they die, this Cognitive aspect is 'torn' away from the body and taken Beyond, unless it has been fundamentally altered to the point where it can stay behind. It encompasses the thoughts and intelligence of an individual.

Also, in almost all of the discussions I have seen the mind=CR and the soul=SR. Pretty sure Brandon refers to them that way as well. For example:

 

Quote

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to push/pull an invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the investiture

2.) Further, invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that A hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

 

 

 

[Stark he/him]

I'm now curious about the parallels between Wax and the returned. As @Darkness pointed out, Lightsong was given an offer to return by Endowment after he saw how bad things could become.  And the indicated Return condition, or at least the condition theorized by the priests to attract Endowment's attention, was a heroic death.

On 9/22/2016 at 4:33 AM, Darkness said:

I agree with Yata. The scene with Lightsong Returning is indicative of the process. Finally found it:

 

  Hide contents

The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more  deadly—even—than the Manywar. He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity. To Return.

 

Sounds like it's the soul Returning to its own body, and Breath just facilitates that process. I'm sure the spirit web is altered somewhat (maybe that causes the memory loss), but I think it's still the same soul. Kind of parallel's Kelsier's return (supposedly through hemalurgy) if so.

Similarly, Wax came to a near death state in BoM, and met Harmony, who gave him a chance to Return, or pass on.  Yet Wax does not need a constant source of investiture to remain alive, and is clearly not a Returned.  The most immediate thing that comes to mind is that Wax did it himself using the healing stored in the Bands, and he was not fully dead, just mostly dead.

 

So, ignoring the Bands, what is the difference between what Endowment does and what Harmony did?  And yes, I realize the absurdity of ignoring one of the Cosmere's most powerful artifacts to date in this equation...

[Yata he/him]

44 minutes ago, Stark said:

So, ignoring the Bands, what is the difference between what Endowment does and what Harmony did?  And yes, I realize the absurdity of ignoring one of the Cosmere's most powerful artifacts to date in this equation...

Harmony did actual nothing...It was Wax who tapped Health from the Band and "resurect" himself....Maybe the only thing Harmony did, is to be a motivator to Wax and give it the information for his revival (He let Wax listen the Physical Realm and Marasi).

[Stark he/him]

Didn't Harmony offer Wax a right-hand vs left-hand, red pill vs blue pill type of decision?  Take my left hand offer and go on to the great beyond, take my right hand offer and return?  Which sounds very similar to the offer Lightsong was offered.

 

Sorry, I am at work and cannot go hunting for the exact passage right now, but I got the impression both Shards offered the mortal in question a choice, return or don't, and facilitated the decision by giving some details.  The big differences I see is the presence of the Bands, and Wax being only slightly dead, still in the Szeth-rescued-by-Naze-not-fully-departed-yet state, where as Lightsong was fully dead.

 

Or am I way off base and trying to see parallels where there are none?

[Argel he/him]

It seems like in the Cosmere that there's the death in the PR and then the mind hangs out in the CR, usually for a very short period of time, before heading on to the Great Beyond. But beings with investiture (or an insane amount of willpower) can delay that or in Kelsier's case stick around for a very long time (I assume since becoming a sliver he can hang around forever, but I'm not sure we can assume that for pre-sliver Kelsier).

IIRC, the soul is the timeless part. So I would assume it's possible to reconnect the soul (SR) to the body (PR) in such a way as to interfere with the mind (CR) aspect, such as suppressing the memories. 

Huh. So going back to Ashraven, what if his mind (CR) aspect was messed up/lost? Maybe what Shai did was basically Forge Ashraven's mind (CR aspect), allowing his actual soul (SR) to reconnect with his body (PR). That could explain how she got the mannerisms right -- those could be at least partially tied to the SR aspect. And as @Yata pointed out above, the CR is really messed up on Sel, so that could be a bigger factor for Ashraven.

2 minutes ago, Stark said:

Didn't Harmony offer Wax a right-hand vs left-hand, red pill vs blue pill type of decision?  Take my left hand offer and go on to the great beyond, take my right hand offer and return?  Which sounds very similar to the offer Lightsong was offered.

If Harmony was not there, Wax would go on to the Great Beyond, so there's nothing for Harmony to actually do for that choice. So, likely there is nothing he has to do for the other choice, beyond convincing Wax to go back.

[Landis963 he/him]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:28 PM, Argel said:

If Harmony was not there, Wax would go on to the Great Beyond, so there's nothing for Harmony to actually do for that choice. So, likely there is nothing he has to do for the other choice, beyond convincing Wax to go back.

Indeed, I read the situation as Harmony offering to use up Wax's remaining time in the Cognitive Realm instantly (in lieu of taking the Bands of Mourning express back to the Physical), given that their conversation was done and all of Wax's relevant issues were assuaged.  (And there's no way I can snarkily refer to those issues (well, "issue") without a massive spoiler that is quite off-topic, so that's the end of that post)

[Pagerunner he/him]

Nice job on the Reddit WoB, @Argel.

Quote

Q: And because I like to collect RAFO's, Regarding Ashraven... Would it be correct to say that memories are part of the mind/CR aspect? Assuming so, was Shai forging a new CR aspect to in-effect reconnect Asharaven's Soul (SR) with his body (PR)? I was thinking this could explain how she got his mannerisms correct -- i.e. that those are timeless SR aspects, so she didn't really get those right but instead, the SR connection was re-established?

A: Regarding Ashrovan: The problem here is that I don't want to get too deep into these sorts of things, for reasons that I want aspects of the magic to remain subject to discussion for a while yet. Suffice it to say that when we talk about Returned and lifeless in Warbreaker sequels, you'll have more ammunition for understanding what happened in Emperor's Soul.

So, obviously there are similarities between Ashravan and Returned, even if my theory is taking it a step far. But I think it's a good sign that, when asked about Ashravan, Brandon pointed unprovoked towards Warbreaker. And it's nice to know that we've got an implicit star of approval to take things too far, since he wants it to be 'subject to discussion for a while yet.'

Edited October 4, 2016 by Pagerunner