Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Experience said:

Not sure why me wanting PM's seems weird, but eh. 

Something seems off about Aman, but I'll wait to go through all their posts and see if my feelings are founded or just guy in an hour or so when I'm not on mobile. 

I don't think it's weird, for the record

Eager to hear your findings  

[STINK he/him]

53 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Cool. I'll wait for you to do yours first then. Curious if you'll notice the same things I did.

Ok but like legit how do I put quotes and stuff for an ISO in spoilers I cannot find anything online on how to do this????????

I can make the spoiler box through this post editor but then thats just a spoiler box I can type in and the post preview never seems to agree with my spoiler tags im trying to put around quotes so I imagine that means they're not working or the post preview is broken and I don't bloody know which one is which or if I'm just wrong about both or everything

[Experience he/him]

Spoiler

2 minutes ago, STINK said:

Ok but like legit how do I put quotes and stuff for an ISO in spoilers I cannot find anything online on how to do this????????

I can make the spoiler box through this post editor but then thats just a spoiler box I can type in and the post preview never seems to agree with my spoiler tags im trying to put around quotes so I imagine that means they're not working or the post preview is broken and I don't bloody know which one is which or if I'm just wrong about both or everything

 

If you press the eye, and then make sure your cursor is inside the spoiler box, then if you quote it, it should put it into the spoiler box like this. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Experience

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, STINK said:

Ok but like legit how do I put quotes and stuff for an ISO in spoilers I cannot find anything online on how to do this????????

I can make the spoiler box through this post editor but then thats just a spoiler box I can type in and the post preview never seems to agree with my spoiler tags im trying to put around quotes so I imagine that means they're not working or the post preview is broken and I don't bloody know which one is which or if I'm just wrong about both or everything

I just tested in my GM PM as well. You can do

[spoiler][quote]Test[/quote][/spoiler]

 

[Mat he/him]

I’ll catch up

Gimme two hours xD

I’d forgotten I almost was MLd D1 of the AG. That earns me another nickel  

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I’ll catch up

Gimme two hours xD

I’d forgotten I almost was MLd D1 of the AG. That earns me another nickel  

Good morning. I'll try to get my post up before you do so you can respond

[Quivil she/her]

7 hours ago, Karnatheon said:

Also @Tani is this you claiming you're an Epic too or was that you establishing an RP character I'm kind of confused.

Establishing RP character in a way that it might get seen as a claim, as a joke. I apologize for the inconvenience.

[STINK he/him]

 

Hello yes in this spoiler I will be attempting an ISO but now I am just kinda annoyed at life for wasting so much time on a spoiler box so no guarantees on whether it'll be the best one you've ever seen or just average  

Also halfway through this I started trimming some quotes when they said stuff that like doesn't matter like voting on TJ or w/e for readability and writeability

Spoiler

17 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Quick Gut Takes:

Vil- Stick, TJ, Ash

Null (as opposed to no opinion)- Thaidakar, Araris (+)

Don't have anyone that feels elimmy right now. Kas and Exp both feel normal to me but I don't think that's necessarily the same thing as village. (Well, in Kas' case, maybe it does :P)

I know this is a thing some people have been doing (right?) but like I just don't see the point of posting something like this so early? Just posting like hey I think these 3 people are villagers and just dropping it there without even really throwing anything actionable while looking like you are. I'm one for gut-reads and all but theres no way you're gutting 7 people this quickly hombre.

17 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Ash gets points for his vote imo, and Kas had a reason he explained. Araris gonna Araris. This though, I don't like. Though what's new there?

It amazes me how from game to game I can get instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another, and not change my playstyle at all. I don't think I've consciously changed my playstyle... ever xD Unless you count me trying to not tunnel. But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing.

Araris gonna Araris hmmmm I've heard that said about me and like half the time it's not in a good way if ya get me. As for getting mass-read from game to game, I cannot personally say if any of that is true or not but clearly you're on to something if somewhat active discussion is being peddled bout you on D1 already, playstyle must be something out there. 

17 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I don't see how you can confirm there being no vanillas unless you have access to the player list, or something. You can assume that, but not confirm.

I do know of a way to first-hand confirm things in blackout games It involves a nefarious PM from TJ describing what you have the capability to do within the game, as a hint. 

16 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

The elims specifically being Corrupted Epics, instead of just Epics, and the villagers being Reckoner Allies, instead of just Reckoners, does imply village Epics to me. 

Tracks, and it's not like they just said this out of nowhere what with people talking 'bout Epics and someone already claiming one (seriously what is up with that?)

14 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Are there neutral roles? The only reason I’m even bothering asking this is because of the ‘factions’ section in the known rules being somewhat definite.

And seconded. Watching LG82 was my favorite GM for sure  Archer said it was mechanically solvable but clearly the elims could survive attacks too, smh

~

I see no reason not to vote Dannnex

Decent post I guess, got the poke vote in and more discussion about possible roles or factions or win cons or whatever people feel like should happen on D1. 

13 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Ah come on, surely you know that e!me doesn’t think things like that through and also doesn’t care too much about wordings like that

Tbh I think v!me would be more likely to reword something because it looks elimmy than e!me but that’s a weird piece of self meta from someone who’s bad at self meta, take that with a grain of salt if you take it at all xD

Post reads weird? Struggling to articulate why exactly but definitely reads off to me, though I don't think that's necessarily on an alignment basis just that this post has like 4 layers of self meta intertwined with it or something like that which probably does have reads for anyone that knows Matrim but I don't so it's just an off-kilter one for me. 

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

It’s never useless to ask, even if I might not have an answer.

I think it’s the kind of posts he’s making- A lot of the time, when I’m elim, I avoid posting completely random takes and do less fluff. There is gut involved, but I think e!Exp might be more reserved.

This one also reads weird after the last post where it's like more self-meta for when they're elim and it's stuff they're kinda doing so far in D1? But something that has pros and cons being posted from either viewpoint of good or bad so idk D1 shenanigans + Don't know em + Wouldn't make this as an elim or village

Maybe they are a neutral huh

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Yeahhhh I have a history of disliking people reading me based on their own playstyle so this is a fair callout

But I don’t like when I’m elim read for acting like a different person’s elim meta, and this is the other way around, so it’s alright. Right?

I'm just using this quote to show that I really don't wanna talk anymore about people's playstyles or metas or whatever you wanna call it on D1 alright like cmon

9 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Also Striker is village thank you have a nice day

This quote above has like a whole lot more to that post but it's all response to other quotes and so I ain't gonna track that cause I can't see the original quotes within this quote box that I'm writing in so didn't look like much with a bunch of one sentence statements or whatever. But then this ends with like another random quick take no explanation when like even I can tell by now that you got explanations going on in that head o' yours. Has to be a deliberate choice or something to just skip to the conclusion with none of the argument for all of these takes which now that I think of it Illwei is doing too? Is this a weird trend I'm missing out on now? 

Conclusions I don't even really make in the spoiler box but you can see the thinking happening probably:

• Would bet on Matrim being a neutral or just has tells I can't put to being either elim or village
• Too many takes on which player has which alignment without reasoning, at like 8 or something like that. Kinda suspicious if you ask me. Slight bias towards elim/neutral
• Illwei is doing the same thing too so not a fan of that sorry

Turns out ISO'ing someone thats just quoting a lotta people isn't that fun really, wcyd. Was nice to fill up time in the day tho, can't wait for when we finally get PMs please someone do whatever you have to do for that I spent like 20 minutes trying to figure out that spoiler thing without being able to ask anyone before I just rage-ate lunch.

[Mat he/him]

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

8., 9.: Why?

Entering the thread with a single somewhat strange read makes you noticeable. Exp did that with no concern, and elims normally take care not to draw too much attention.

I've liked Striker's vote pattern and his level of engagement.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Teaching Assistant, duh. I should have got that one

Mat has stood out to me a few times, yeah. I'm trying to figure out if the reason I didn't understand why people sused Coral Swan on our last game's D1 is only because I had Elim TMI (Mat was Coral, right?). As of right now, he's my preferred exe, though I'd also be cool with Dannnex for lesser reasons.

1: I've mentioned multiple times how I'm a common face to vote on incorrectly D1- and your first mention of me outside of my name in red is citing one of these times. 2: Why is your second choice the person I'm currently voting on? My vote will likely move to self pres (it will move to self pres) but that's still interesting to me.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Because I believe he's an Epic-- and not the village kind of Epic.

If you want my specific reasons, I'm keeping it between Blink and me for now.

"Oh, he's elim... because he's elim." Like, I'm sorry, that's just not helpful :P. Most people most of the time don't give me the courtesy of telling me why I'm being voted on by them, and as a result I don't know why I'm so often a candidate early on and not later. Guess I just have one of those faces.

Why bother keeping it to yourself? I can't defend myself against accusations that aren't there. This looks like you don't have reasons. (I believe you do, but it still looks like that). I've kept things to myself as a villager before, but I think that if you're asked a direct question about your reasoning for your vote by the person you're voting on, you should answer.

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm okay with joining you on Experience for the moment as I'm just not fond of where Experience is ending up in my groupings. Karn, Experience. 

Don't make me self pres on one of my only village reads :| I swear this always happens to me

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Ah okie, thank you. Will keep this in mind when Mat flips.

Very open mind, I see.

I can tell you what I'll flip right now, but you probably wouldn't look twice at it. My role is one that makes little sense for the elims to have, and I don't really want to claim it but I will if that'll help.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Currently debating if I should just share why I'm confidently reading Mat as an E!Epic. Was trying to avoid anyone sheeping me (muddies the info pool) + wanted to see how votes moved or accumulated after putting him in the lead with no explanation, but not a lot has come from it due to timezones and I'm kinda impatient. Also concerned I'm tunneling and just don't know enough about Mat to make a proper judgment, so getting thoughts on my reasoning from players more familiar with him would probably help. Wouldn't mind the validation either.

The net info gain from not sharing it earlier probably isn't as significant as I initially believed, and I'd also hate to be wrong and for V!Mat to see me trying to kill him with no given explanation.

Since ya'll are here: Kas, Stink. Thoughts on Mat?

Yes. Yes you should. At the very least allow me to understand and reply. It's not helpful to anyone to hold onto it when I could very well explain myself.

Sorry if I'm coming across as annoyed, it's not intentional. I'm just tired of this happening to me, because it happens a lot.  Most of the time ending in my survival, which is why I didn't do anything about the early votes on me, I just figured they wouldn't stick.

I see here that you're aware of all of these things, which is nice to see. I'm post-by-post replying to the thread (selecting the posts I reply to, I mean) in a notepad and then going to c/p and post it- point being that I haven't read anything beyond this at the time of typing this.

1 hour ago, STINK said:

I know this is a thing some people have been doing (right?) but like I just don't see the point of posting something like this so early? Just posting like hey I think these 3 people are villagers and just dropping it there without even really throwing anything actionable while looking like you are. I'm one for gut-reads and all but theres no way you're gutting 7 people this quickly hombre.

I mean, that's four, not seven. GM is the GM and Kas and Exp don't count as reads.

1 hour ago, STINK said:

• Would bet on Matrim being a neutral or just has tells I can't put to being either elim or village

I would love to be a neutral again. Ironically the last time I was a neutral, you were the one telling everybody that I was.

1 hour ago, STINK said:

• Too many takes on which player has which alignment without reasoning, at like 8 or something like that. Kinda suspicious if you ask me. Slight bias towards elim/neutral

This is something I do. I think I picked it up from Illwei, actually :P. imo if I'm pinged by someone village or otherwise it's more helpful to post something than not, but I see how it could be hard to read. I'll try to put reasons with my takes, though, I'm being super hypocritical :P. I explained a lot of them in this post, I think.

I think in general I'm a lot more nonchalance as village. But again I see how it's easier to read someone who's articulate, and I'll work on that.

I like that post, though. Good mindset.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

So what has happened while I slept like the dead.

and @_Stick_ I kind of have to play the newbie card because that is what I am... I have read the rules but I actual need to play to fully understand them so that is what I am doing.

[Mat he/him]

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

So what has happened while I slept like the dead.

and @_Stick_ I kind of have to play the newbie card because that is what I am... I have read the rules but I actual need to play to fully understand them so that is what I am doing.

'Newbie card' refers to acting more confused than you actually are to gain village cred.

I want to make a reads list with actual explanations but I'll hold off until Aman posts.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

'Newbie card' refers to acting more confused than you actually are to gain village cred.

I want to make a reads list with actual explanations but I'll hold off until Aman posts.

OH.

As I said I still need to learn a lot of things.

[Amanuensis he/him]

12 hours ago, STINK said:

Hello yes in this spoiler I will be attempting an ISO but now I am just kinda annoyed at life for wasting so much time on a spoiler box so no guarantees on whether it'll be the best one you've ever seen or just average  

Also halfway through this I started trimming some quotes when they said stuff that like doesn't matter like voting on TJ or w/e for readability and writeability

  Reveal hidden contents

I know this is a thing some people have been doing (right?) but like I just don't see the point of posting something like this so early? Just posting like hey I think these 3 people are villagers and just dropping it there without even really throwing anything actionable while looking like you are. I'm one for gut-reads and all but theres no way you're gutting 7 people this quickly hombre.

Araris gonna Araris hmmmm I've heard that said about me and like half the time it's not in a good way if ya get me. As for getting mass-read from game to game, I cannot personally say if any of that is true or not but clearly you're on to something if somewhat active discussion is being peddled bout you on D1 already, playstyle must be something out there. 

I do know of a way to first-hand confirm things in blackout games It involves a nefarious PM from TJ describing what you have the capability to do within the game, as a hint. 

Tracks, and it's not like they just said this out of nowhere what with people talking 'bout Epics and someone already claiming one (seriously what is up with that?)

Decent post I guess, got the poke vote in and more discussion about possible roles or factions or win cons or whatever people feel like should happen on D1. 

Post reads weird? Struggling to articulate why exactly but definitely reads off to me, though I don't think that's necessarily on an alignment basis just that this post has like 4 layers of self meta intertwined with it or something like that which probably does have reads for anyone that knows Matrim but I don't so it's just an off-kilter one for me. 

This one also reads weird after the last post where it's like more self-meta for when they're elim and it's stuff they're kinda doing so far in D1? But something that has pros and cons being posted from either viewpoint of good or bad so idk D1 shenanigans + Don't know em + Wouldn't make this as an elim or village

Maybe they are a neutral huh

I'm just using this quote to show that I really don't wanna talk anymore about people's playstyles or metas or whatever you wanna call it on D1 alright like cmon

This quote above has like a whole lot more to that post but it's all response to other quotes and so I ain't gonna track that cause I can't see the original quotes within this quote box that I'm writing in so didn't look like much with a bunch of one sentence statements or whatever. But then this ends with like another random quick take no explanation when like even I can tell by now that you got explanations going on in that head o' yours. Has to be a deliberate choice or something to just skip to the conclusion with none of the argument for all of these takes which now that I think of it Illwei is doing too? Is this a weird trend I'm missing out on now? 

Conclusions I don't even really make in the spoiler box but you can see the thinking happening probably:

• Would bet on Matrim being a neutral or just has tells I can't put to being either elim or village
• Too many takes on which player has which alignment without reasoning, at like 8 or something like that. Kinda suspicious if you ask me. Slight bias towards elim/neutral
• Illwei is doing the same thing too so not a fan of that sorry

Turns out ISO'ing someone thats just quoting a lotta people isn't that fun really, wcyd. Was nice to fill up time in the day tho, can't wait for when we finally get PMs please someone do whatever you have to do for that I spent like 20 minutes trying to figure out that spoiler thing without being able to ask anyone before I just rage-ate lunch.

Nice. You noticed the things that I hoped you (tbh anyone) would.

Observation #1: Matrim is not a Regular.

Spoiler

 

On 2/10/2022 at 11:08 AM, Matrim's Dice said:

So I'm the only one who asked a singular question that didn't get PAFO'd? Clearly I'm doing it wrong.

First clue. Received a GM PM that prompted a question.

On 2/10/2022 at 0:53 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

I don't see how you can confirm there being no vanillas unless you have access to the player list, or something. You can assume that, but not confirm.

Second clue. Misses the fact that a Regular Villager would know Regulars exist.

While having a role =/= elim, it's something I noticed almost immediately, and somewhat informs my vote (given a preference for exeing a slot with a role to better understand the game's distro).

 

Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny.

Spoiler

 

On 2/10/2022 at 11:15 AM, Matrim's Dice said:

Kind of want to call this a Szeth elim tell but he's also had a streak going the past few games so it's more likely just a Szeth tell

On 2/10/2022 at 11:28 AM, Kasimir said:

A. Szeth has been on an Elim streak the past few games (? - wasn't he Village in Elan's MR55?), therefore this isn't so much an Elim tell as a Szeth tell that gets coded Elim because Szeth just so happens to be Elim

and

B. Szeth has been on an Elim streak the past few games (?? - same question, actually not just MR55, he was definitely Village in LG82 which you GMed, my good sir!) - so this is likely just a normal Szeth tell because he's not likely to be Elim this time.

One construal, as you can appreciate, is slightly more alarming than the other one

On 2/10/2022 at 11:36 AM, Matrim's Dice said:

I meant more like option A, of these. I said he's on an elim streak off of remembering the AG and Tani's game, and those games alone, though they were the most recent two. Part of the reason I noticed it is because I initially voted Szeth in Tani's game for doing something very similar, but I also acknowledged that something he probably just does since my sample section was two games. I don't remember how Gorilla opened either, so. One game.

Not the strongest argument, but that's why it wasn't an argument or a vote, just a random thought I posted. I wasn't planning on acting on it.

Which of the two is more alarming? xD I can't tell

I didn't mind the initial comment much tbh. But his response to Kas' feels over-explainy (something elims often do subconsciously due to a need to obscure their alignment). It also does little good making his initial read look better.

I wouldn't necessarily call two games a streak. The fact that he doesn't remember how Szeth opened in the anon game effectively reduces his sample size to one, which only weakens his original point (Szeth tell would need to be observed in multiple games to be confirmable).

Him not looking at "Gorilla's" opening + not bringing up V!Szeth games to confirm/deny if the supposed tell is plausible gives me the impression he's not super interested in solving an unknown slot, even while thinking he's noticed a reoccurring tell.

That, coupled with the fact that he apparently voted Szeth in Tani's game for doing something similar yet didn't plan on acting on it now, leaves me wondering what's different in this game? Why not pursue it further?

 

Observation #3: Matrim is aware they're a frequent D1 exe candidate and wants us all to know it.

Spoiler

 

On 2/10/2022 at 0:10 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

If I had a nickel for every time I was the leading train 2 hours into D1

I'd have like... six nickels. At least. If I had a nickel for every time I've died D1, I'd have one nickel.

This is probably the only reason I'm harboring doubts about voting him out today, which may very well be the point. I understand the frustration from either alignment, having dealt with a similar problem myself (though usually it's not D1 exes, but D3+). Unfortunate when you're Village because you might get misexed. Unfortunate when you're an Eliminator because you might get exed early for something you don't understand or is beyond your control. I feel his pain, which is why the least I can do is give my explanations now and invite a response + more discussion.

 

Observation #4: Matrim doesn't like Striker's vote on him for poor logic, but doesn't appear to suspect Striker for it + later reads Striker as Village.

Spoiler

 

On 2/10/2022 at 0:37 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die. The one where I did was wrong, though. But that logic is incorrect to begin with, there's too many variables and I don't think that's how probability works :P.

Ash gets points for his vote imo, and Kas had a reason he explained. Araris gonna Araris. This though, I don't like. Though what's new there?

It amazes me how from game to game I can get instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another, and not change my playstyle at all. I don't think I've consciously changed my playstyle... ever xD Unless you count me trying to not tunnel. But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing.

22 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Also Striker is village thank you have a nice day

Again, the first post gives me over-explainy vibes, and once again, the logic falls apart upon further scrutiny.

Note that he says, 1) "I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die," and 2) "But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing."

How can these two bolded statements be simultaneously true? Perhaps he's more focused on the "instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another" trend, but the overall reaction seems a lot more defensive when at that point, I don't think many people voiced suspicions of Mat. 

My initial thought is pressure opened up cracks in his forced (elim) takes, hence the forming of these logical oddities.

 

Observation #5: Mat is hyperaware of his own Villager and Eliminator meta.

Spoiler

 

On 2/10/2022 at 3:55 PM, Archer said:

I have a very specific theory that you didn't want to say 'TJ is evil because he's in the elim doc' because then we'd think you're in the elim doc too, so you said that instead.

On 2/10/2022 at 4:37 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

Ah come on, surely you know that e!me doesn’t think things like that through and also doesn’t care too much about wordings like that

Tbh I think v!me would be more likely to reword something because it looks elimmy than e!me but that’s a weird piece of self meta from someone who’s bad at self meta, take that with a grain of salt if you take it at all xD

On 2/10/2022 at 6:12 PM, Illwei said:

@mat is it useless to ask why you think exp is solidly village? Even if it's a gut read are there any specific posts there that you looked at and made you feel that way?

On 2/10/2022 at 6:22 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

It’s never useless to ask, even if I might not have an answer.

I think it’s the kind of posts he’s making- A lot of the time, when I’m elim, I avoid posting completely random takes and do less fluff. There is gut involved, but I think e!Exp might be more reserved.

On 2/10/2022 at 6:37 PM, Experience said:

Glad to know that I'm acting like v!Mat

On 2/10/2022 at 6:43 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

Yeahhhh I have a history of disliking people reading me based on their own playstyle so this is a fair callout

But I don’t like when I’m elim read for acting like a different person’s elim meta, and this is the other way around, so it’s alright. Right?

While not exactly a reason to believe Mat is elim, the amount of times he's brought up his own V!Meta as a defense makes it difficult to trust his meta. Being aware of it means he can make a conscious effort while evil to do what he does when good.

That aside, what I have a real problem with is his response to Archer.

1. Uses firm language when talking about e!Mat (surely) as a defense from Archer's theory.
2. Uses uncertain language when talking about v!Mat (I think) to explain that he'd more likely reword things deliberately.
3. Talks down his self-meta while also frequently bringing up self-meta.

Once again, over-explainy. Why bother saying he's more likely to deliberately reword things as a Villager? If he did, why not outright confirm it? If he didn't, why does this info help? Why not just say "Nah, I was just making a casual joke," and leave it at that?

It all just feels defensive to me, and not in the Villager kind of way. Even small comments like this:

22 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Yeah, context is important. It's harder for me to see that because I'm clouded by my TMI, but hey, at least I'm self aware

Give me, well, me vibes when I'm an elim, as evidenced by my last game. I probably mentioned knowing my alignment more than anyone, and I feel these kinds of statements are born from subconscious overcompensation.

 

 

This post is already longer than I'd like and I haven't read Mat's new post yet, so I'll cut this here and tackle the new stuff in the next one.

 

ED1T: 

Oh yeah, so basically I want people who know Mat to give their opinions on these observations. @Kasimir I acknowledge I could be tunneling and others know him better.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Mat he/him]

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #1: Matrim is not a Regular.

True

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny.

Also true. I didn't fact-check myself when I posted that, which is why I never pursued it further.

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #3: Matrim is aware they're a frequent D1 exe candidate and wants us all to know it.

Also true  

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #4: Matrim doesn't like Striker's vote on him for poor logic, but doesn't appear to suspect Striker for it + later reads Striker as Village.

I did initially suspect Striker for it (See the 'This though, I don't like'). I later read Striker village for a few different reasons- mainly his vote pattern. He unvoted me, which, sure, bias, but that shows that he's thinking about my slot more than just slapping a vote and not really revisiting me. And sort of the same thing as my v!Exp read; his vote pattern is erratic enough that I don't think an elim would bother drawing attention in that way. That's why my naked v read of Striker came directly after his naked vote change.

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Note that he says, 1) "I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die," and 2) "But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing."

How can these two bolded statements be simultaneously true? Perhaps he's more focused on the "instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another" trend, but the overall reaction seems a lot more defensive when at that point, I don't think many people voiced suspicions of Mat. 

This seems like splitting hairs to me. Obviously when I say "I'm village in these games" I'm referring to the section of games that I am village. Maybe a lot of people hadn't voiced suspicions on me, but at that point I was clearly the runaway train and from my PoV, a lot of people had voiced suspicion of me.

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #5: Mat is hyperaware of his own Villager and Eliminator meta.

...Hyperaware, yes, but also very unconfident in my own awareness.

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

While not exactly a reason to believe Mat is elim, the amount of times he's brought up his own V!Meta as a defense makes it difficult to trust his meta. Being aware of it means he can make a conscious effort while evil to do what he does when good.

This is a good take, but as I've said before- hard to defend against accusations that aren't anything but 'Mat sus'. I bring up my v meta because that's all I can bring up.

Only one of those quotes was actually me defending myself, though.

20 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Once again, over-explainy. Why bother saying he's more likely to deliberately reword things as a Villager? If he did, why not outright confirm it? If he didn't, why does this info help? Why not just say "Nah, I was just making a casual joke," and leave it at that?

I think you overestimate how much I think before I post :P.

But I'm finding that I can't actually argue with this section of your post, because you're right. Right about it being hard to trust what I say about my meta, right about how it's over-explainy, and about the differences in how I mentioned my e!meta and v!meta.

I appreciate you mentioning everything you did, because I think it more than anything else makes me aware of my meta and how I appear to people that aren't me. And while I don't super want to change my playstyle for future games because of being sussed D1, I probably will tweak how I voice meta thoughts and my suspicions to be more helpful to the thread. Me spewing whatever the heck I feel like is fun, maybe easy, but also not the most useful.

But this game? I'll go down with the ship if I have to.

Anyone have a VC?

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

hmm. this is getting interesting. Mat you seem a bit suspicious but my gut says Archer. 

hmmm

Tani

[Quivil she/her]

Stick

[Experience he/him]

Okay, let's see where feelings about aman are coming from.

Spoiler

10 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Sadly, Blink is shy, so he and I will be chilling out and observing from the periphery. I'm trying to convince him that you're nice people and won't try to hurt him because of his... you know. Condition. But for some reason, the boy has a history of being hunted and kidnapped, so it may take some time for him to gather the courage to introduce himself. In the meantime, I'll mostly be watching rather than talking while I keep him company. I'll gladly respond to direct questions though.

Here's my vote and a vote count.

• (3) Matrim: Ashbringer, Araris, Amanuensis, 
• (2) Illwei: Striker, Archer, 
• (2) Archer: Thaidakar, Karnatheon, 
• (1) Dannnex: Matrim, 
• (1) Ashbringer: Devotary, 
• (1) Tani: Stick, 
• (1) Araris: Experience, 
• (1) Stick: Illwei,
• (1) Karnatheon: Kasimir, 

Votes mat, no reasoning.

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

TA mode?

I believe Archer is a Village Epic, though I don't necessarily believe what he's revealed about his role. Probably won't think more about it until we have more info from the exe (or a lack of info, which is info in a way). I also believe The Unknown Aon is a Regular Villager, but that's it for my reads on people involved with the discussion. Other things have caught my attention more.

Very curious about this if you ever figure out why.

Hi Ash!

NGL, when I made that vote count, I was tempted to @ Archer myself to ask if he'd join us  

Honestly slight village feel for this cause if they were a village epic they would know that there are village epics.

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Teaching Assistant, duh. I should have got that one

Mat has stood out to me a few times, yeah. I'm trying to figure out if the reason I didn't understand why people sused Coral Swan on our last game's D1 is only because I had Elim TMI (Mat was Coral, right?). As of right now, he's my preferred exe, though I'd also be cool with Dannnex for lesser reasons.

Fair enough.

Still doesn't give reason for mat vote.

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Oh, don't worry about pushing me  I'm going to be relaxed no matter what y'all do, the main thing I'm focusing on is how I play and reply to peeps. Shorter, more concise posts, less involvement and no leading. Perfectly happy to receive questions, though I may not answer them fully.

Because I believe he's an Epic-- and not the village kind of Epic.

If you want my specific reasons, I'm keeping it between Blink and me for now.

Still refuses to give reasons.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Since it's a popular enough topic, I might as well say a lil more about why I straight up am village reading Archer. Even knowing that he has a history of being a bold, gambit happy elim, I'd be extremely surprised if that were the case here.

An elim claiming to be a village Epic without knowing whether or not village Epics really exist is insanely risky. Maybe not in the short term, but after enough flips without seeing another one, it'd undoubtedly come back to bite him.

Based on tone and direction alone, Archer's approach reads like a Villager with minimal information sharing what little he does know with hopes of gathering more info. I'd probably do the same thing in his shoes.

Gives reasoning for why archer might be village, which is same reasoning why village cred above.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

If anyone can make a PM with Illwei and me in it, that'd be grand.

Or me. that would be grander.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Dang, I was trying to bait a vote or something from you, but you didn't even respond to me

Idk.

5 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

This may not be what Illwei was getting at, but I too was confused by your Mat stance. Just to clarify, you're mind-melding / agreeing with Mat, but not reading him as Village due to paranoia, right?

Follow-up question if Yes: do you believe E!Mat would be able to say things V!Stick thinks?

At this point, I'm leaning aman as village, because he's going out there and challenging what people are saying.

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Ah okie, thank you. Will keep this in mind when Mat flips.

When. Was already pointed out, but hmm.

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Depends on your definition of fun, methinks.

Idk.

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Currently debating if I should just share why I'm confidently reading Mat as an E!Epic. Was trying to avoid anyone sheeping me (muddies the info pool) + wanted to see how votes moved or accumulated after putting him in the lead with no explanation, but not a lot has come from it due to timezones and I'm kinda impatient. Also concerned I'm tunneling and just don't know enough about Mat to make a proper judgment, so getting thoughts on my reasoning from players more familiar with him would probably help. Wouldn't mind the validation either.

The net info gain from not sharing it earlier probably isn't as significant as I initially believed, and I'd also hate to be wrong and for V!Mat to see me trying to kill him with no given explanation.

Since ya'll are here: Kas, Stink. Thoughts on Mat?

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Cool. I'll wait for you to do yours first then. Curious if you'll notice the same things I did.

Thank you. I'll properly respond to this when I'm ready to bring up my reasons.

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

I don't think it's weird, for the record

Eager to hear your findings  

Here they are xD.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

I just tested in my GM PM as well. You can do

[spoiler][quote]Test[/quote][/spoiler]

 

NAI.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Good morning. I'll try to get my post up before you do so you can respond

Says he'll give reasoning before rollover.

35 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Nice. You noticed the things that I hoped you (tbh anyone) would.

Observation #1: Matrim is not a Regular.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

First clue. Received a GM PM that prompted a question.

Second clue. Misses the fact that a Regular Villager would know Regulars exist.

While having a role =/= elim, it's something I noticed almost immediately, and somewhat informs my vote (given a preference for exeing a slot with a role to better understand the game's distro).

 

Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I didn't mind the initial comment much tbh. But his response to Kas' feels over-explainy (something elims often do subconsciously due to a need to obscure their alignment). It also does little good making his initial read look better.

I wouldn't necessarily call two games a streak. The fact that he doesn't remember how Szeth opened in the anon game effectively reduces his sample size to one, which only weakens his original point (Szeth tell would need to be observed in multiple games to be confirmable).

Him not looking at "Gorilla's" opening + not bringing up V!Szeth games to confirm/deny if the supposed tell is plausible gives me the impression he's not super interested in solving an unknown slot, even while thinking he's noticed a reoccurring tell.

That, coupled with the fact that he apparently voted Szeth in Tani's game for doing something similar yet didn't plan on acting on it now, leaves me wondering what's different in this game? Why not pursue it further?

 

Observation #3: Matrim is aware they're a frequent D1 exe candidate and wants us all to know it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This is probably the only reason I'm harboring doubts about voting him out today, which may very well be the point. I understand the frustration from either alignment, having dealt with a similar problem myself (though usually it's not D1 exes, but D3+). Unfortunate when you're Village because you might get misexed. Unfortunate when you're an Eliminator because you might get exed early for something you don't understand or is beyond your control. I feel his pain, which is why the least I can do is give my explanations now and invite a response + more discussion.

 

Observation #4: Matrim doesn't like Striker's vote on him for poor logic, but doesn't appear to suspect Striker for it + later reads Striker as Village.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Again, the first post gives me over-explainy vibes, and once again, the logic falls apart upon further scrutiny.

Note that he says, 1) "I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die," and 2) "But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing."

How can these two bolded statements be simultaneously true? Perhaps he's more focused on the "instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another" trend, but the overall reaction seems a lot more defensive when at that point, I don't think many people voiced suspicions of Mat. 

My initial thought is pressure opened up cracks in his forced (elim) takes, hence the forming of these logical oddities.

 

Observation #5: Mat is hyperaware of his own Villager and Eliminator meta.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

While not exactly a reason to believe Mat is elim, the amount of times he's brought up his own V!Meta as a defense makes it difficult to trust his meta. Being aware of it means he can make a conscious effort while evil to do what he does when good.

That aside, what I have a real problem with is his response to Archer.

1. Uses firm language when talking about e!Mat (surely) as a defense from Archer's theory.
2. Uses uncertain language when talking about v!Mat (I think) to explain that he'd more likely reword things deliberately.
3. Talks down his self-meta while also frequently bringing up self-meta.

Once again, over-explainy. Why bother saying he's more likely to deliberately reword things as a Villager? If he did, why not outright confirm it? If he didn't, why does this info help? Why not just say "Nah, I was just making a casual joke," and leave it at that?

It all just feels defensive to me, and not in the Villager kind of way. Even small comments like this:

Give me, well, me vibes when I'm an elim, as evidenced by my last game. I probably mentioned knowing my alignment more than anyone, and I feel these kinds of statements are born from subconscious overcompensation.

 

 

This post is already longer than I'd like and I haven't read Mat's new post yet, so I'll cut this here and tackle the new stuff in the next one.

 

ED1T: 

Oh yeah, so basically I want people who know Mat better to give their opinions on these observations. @Kasimir I acknowledge I could be tunneling and other people know him better.

Wants the opinions of players who have played with mat more, and normally this would seem bad to me but aman is voting mat so...

Well. My gut feeling for aman after going through their posts are idk with a bit of a village lean. They did end up giving their reasoning for mat, and stuff about archer. 

I don't know if I'll have time to go through mat's posts or not, and I don't know if I really want to lol. But as of now, I'm not going to vote on mat, because I'm currently not thinking he's elim (though really just gut). Even if it means I end up getting lynched, and I just need to hope that mat has a better role than me. 

[|TJ| he/him]

24 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

hmm. this is getting interesting. Mat you seem a bit suspicious but my gut says Archer. 

hmmm

Tani

you were voting on archer. do you intend to unvote from Archer and vote for Tani? It isn't clear. 

29 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Anyone have a VC?

This one considers Thaidakar's vote still on Archer - 

Matrim's Dice (3): Araris Valerian, Ashbringer, Amanuensis
Illwei (2): StrikerEZ, Archer
Experience (2): Kasimir, _Stick_
Archer (2): Karnatheon, Thaidakar the Ghostblood
_Stick_ (2): Illwei, Tani
Araris Valerian (1): Experience
Ashbringer (1): Devotary of Spontaneity
Dannex (1): Matrim's Dice

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, |TJ| said:

you were voting on archer. do you intend to unvote from Archer and vote for Tani? It isn't clear. 

This one considers Thaidakar's vote still on Archer - 

Matrim's Dice (3): Araris Valerian, Ashbringer, Amanuensis
Illwei (2): StrikerEZ, Archer
Experience (2): Kasimir, _Stick_
Archer (2): Karnatheon, Thaidakar the Ghostblood
_Stick_ (2): Illwei, Tani
Araris Valerian (1): Experience
Ashbringer (1): Devotary of Spontaneity
Dannex (1): Matrim's Dice

huh? doesn't green mean support them? I want to vote archer still

[|TJ| he/him]

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

huh? doesn't green mean support them? I want to vote archer still

Uh no, green votes are just retracting your earlier vote, so if you want to retract your vote without voting on someone else, you just state their name in green.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, |TJ| said:

Uh no, green votes are just retracting your earlier vote, so if you want to retract your vote without voting on someone else, you just state their name in green.

OH! yeah sorry about the confusion

[Mat he/him]

Here's a question for everyone, honest question: Would me role claiming be helpful?

I'll go with the consensus.

I see that VC, and- I know this looks weird considering the reads I've posted, I know- go Stick (Dannnex) as the candidate I like best. That isn't to say I read Stick as elim. I don't read Stick as strictly elim. I don't know what I read Stick, after considering Illwei's take on them, which makes a lot of sense to me. But I read Exp and Illwei as village (Exp for previously stated reasons, and Illwei because of her solving style- reads legitimate to me in its progression. And because we're mindmelding on some things.) And I actively dislike the reasons people are voting Archer. It reminds me of when people would vote Gears for claiming elim.

6 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

huh? doesn't green mean support them? I want to vote archer still

Ok but seriously did you read the rules post or not xD

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matrim's Dice
Retraction

[Stick. she/her]

Gotta admit I’m not sure what to make of the suddenly forming train or Mat’s flip-flopping/non-committal tone, but this sure is getting interesting  We’re tied currently and ties result in RNGesus deciding who bites the dust. The way the votes went in the C1 tie in the AG worked rather well in terms of giving us enough info to uncover nearly the entire elim team so…   

20 minutes ago, Experience said:

Okay, let's see where feelings about aman are coming from.

  Reveal hidden contents

Votes mat, no reasoning.

Honestly slight village feel for this cause if they were a village epic they would know that there are village epics.

Still doesn't give reason for mat vote.

Still refuses to give reasons.

Gives reasoning for why archer might be village, which is same reasoning why village cred above.

Or me. that would be grander.

Idk.

At this point, I'm leaning aman as village, because he's going out there and challenging what people are saying.

When. Was already pointed out, but hmm.

Idk.

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

Here they are xD.

NAI.

Says he'll give reasoning before rollover.

Wants the opinions of players who have played with mat more, and normally this would seem bad to me but aman is voting mat so...

Well. My gut feeling for aman after going through their posts are idk with a bit of a village lean. They did end up giving their reasoning for mat, and stuff about archer. 

I don't know if I'll have time to go through mat's posts or not, and I don't know if I really want to lol. But as of now, I'm not going to vote on mat, because I'm currently not thinking he's elim (though really just gut). Even if it means I end up getting lynched, and I just need to hope that mat has a better role than me. 

Will note that this post (and exp’s post prior to this one) makes me think that exp/aman are not e/e

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

31 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Here's a question for everyone, honest question: Would me role claiming be helpful?

I'll go with the consensus.

I see that VC, and- I know this looks weird considering the reads I've posted, I know- go Stick (Dannnex) as the candidate I like best. That isn't to say I read Stick as elim. I don't read Stick as strictly elim. I don't know what I read Stick, after considering Illwei's take on them, which makes a lot of sense to me. But I read Exp and Illwei as village (Exp for previously stated reasons, and Illwei because of her solving style- reads legitimate to me in its progression. And because we're mindmelding on some things.) And I actively dislike the reasons people are voting Archer. It reminds me of when people would vote Gears for claiming elim.

Ok but seriously did you read the rules post or not xD

YES I DID. I just have terrible memory

[---]

36 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Here's a question for everyone, honest question: Would me role claiming be helpful?

I'll go with the consensus.

I see that VC, and- I know this looks weird considering the reads I've posted, I know- go Stick (Dannnex) as the candidate I like best. That isn't to say I read Stick as elim. I don't read Stick as strictly elim. I don't know what I read Stick, after considering Illwei's take on them, which makes a lot of sense to me. But I read Exp and Illwei as village (Exp for previously stated reasons, and Illwei because of her solving style- reads legitimate to me in its progression. And because we're mindmelding on some things.) And I actively dislike the reasons people are voting Archer. It reminds me of when people would vote Gears for claiming elim.

Ok but seriously did you read the rules post or not xD

Ok this is very much not a villagery post