Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Archer he/him]

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood, if you haven't already, in your GM PM, you should ask TJ to give you an example of how your role works and when and how you need to submit your actions. I've played more than a few games where I messed up because I misunderstood my role, so learn from my mistakes. :D.

The line Thaid asking 'what's an elim?' felt genuine to me. 

Ashbringer, my stance on the discussion of me is that I'm tentatively going to support the people who think I'm village. Just a hunch. :P. 

Kas missed the point of me making distro prompts entirely. 

Since when does STINK do ISOs?

I'll note that Mat brings up his meta a lot regardless of alignment and Aman calling his post possible tunneling when it seemed quite well reasoned to me strikes me as odd. On the other hand, just as I started thinking the Mat train caught on too easily, a number of other votes wandered in. Current theory is e!Illwei is protecting e!Mat by pushing a Stick mix. Stick's post about their voting hesitance felt villagery. 

It feels early to be roleclaiming, Mat, but I think you already know my stance on whether you should do it or not. :P. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Archer

[Amanuensis he/him]

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

1: I've mentioned multiple times how I'm a common face to vote on incorrectly D1- and your first mention of me outside of my name in red is citing one of these times. 2: Why is your second choice the person I'm currently voting on? My vote will likely move to self pres (it will move to self pres) but that's still interesting to me.

1: Yeah, I realized that, hence my wondering if this pattern would have pulled me into early suspicion of you too, had I not been an elim in that game. It does suggest your playstyle impacts others' perception of your slot (anon or not), though doesn't exactly confirm you're not an elim now.

2: While I don't want to say my reasons for considering Dannnex yet, I will say that I haven't ruled out you two being E/E. Nor have I ruled out that he could be E and you could be V.

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

"Oh, he's elim... because he's elim." Like, I'm sorry, that's just not helpful :P. Most people most of the time don't give me the courtesy of telling me why I'm being voted on by them, and as a result I don't know why I'm so often a candidate early on and not later. Guess I just have one of those faces.

Why bother keeping it to yourself? I can't defend myself against accusations that aren't there. This looks like you don't have reasons. (I believe you do, but it still looks like that). I've kept things to myself as a villager before, but I think that if you're asked a direct question about your reasoning for your vote by the person you're voting on, you should answer.

Sorry for any frustration that caused. To answer why, it's because I wanted to see how votes moved over a decent period of time without me giving reasons. If someone voting for you backed off when you got too far ahead, could be E/E. If someone else pushes for another candidate, or pushes against my furthering of the train, could suggest their an ally trying to save you. Also doesn't give elims a reason to vote you, too, if you are V. Plus I didn't want to point out the fact you have a role immediately, since it does play a large role in my wanting you dead

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Very open mind, I see.

I can tell you what I'll flip right now, but you probably wouldn't look twice at it. My role is one that makes little sense for the elims to have, and I don't really want to claim it but I will if that'll help.

I'm very open-minded, I assure you but I also like exuding confidence to bait reactions.

If you did tell us, I would probably look at it thrice, then probably thrice more times  if you're Village, you'd have no reason to lie, so I would seriously consider it. I cannot say for certain if it would effect my read of you, though.

11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Yes. Yes you should. At the very least allow me to understand and reply. It's not helpful to anyone to hold onto it when I could very well explain myself.

Sorry if I'm coming across as annoyed, it's not intentional. I'm just tired of this happening to me, because it happens a lot.  Most of the time ending in my survival, which is why I didn't do anything about the early votes on me, I just figured they wouldn't stick.

I know the feeling, friend, and am sorry for perpetuating the trend. I will say that I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere if I find a good enough reason to believe you're Village, but from my PoV I just don't know yet, and enough posts of yours have stuck out to me that I need to resolve your slot either way (via flip or discussion).

---

10 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny.

10 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Also true. I didn't fact-check myself when I posted that, which is why I never pursued it further.

Since I didn't ask this explicitly but wanted an answer, I will now. Why did Szeth's opening (potential tell) in Tani's game warrant action? Why did Szeth's opening in this game not warrant action? What's different? 

10 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Note that he says, 1) "I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die," and 2) "But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing."

How can these two bolded statements be simultaneously true? Perhaps he's more focused on the "instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another" trend, but the overall reaction seems a lot more defensive when at that point, I don't think many people voiced suspicions of Mat. 

10 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This seems like splitting hairs to me. Obviously when I say "I'm village in these games" I'm referring to the section of games that I am village. Maybe a lot of people hadn't voiced suspicions on me, but at that point I was clearly the runaway train and from my PoV, a lot of people had voiced suspicion of me.

Definitely could be me splitting hairs (I'm pretty nitpicky), but I perceived a contradiction and had to address it. Ultimately what stood out to me was your defensive reaction, which lead to me trying to figure out where it's coming from.

10 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

While not exactly a reason to believe Mat is elim, the amount of times he's brought up his own V!Meta as a defense makes it difficult to trust his meta. Being aware of it means he can make a conscious effort while evil to do what he does when good.

10 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This is a good take, but as I've said before- hard to defend against accusations that aren't anything but 'Mat sus'. I bring up my v meta because that's all I can bring up.

Only one of those quotes was actually me defending myself, though.

In lieu of bringing up v meta, I would recommend initiating a back-and-forth that makes the 'suser' explain their reasoning as much as possible, then attempt to meet them halfway / be willing to shrug it off if they can't be swayed. 

Yeah, the quotes were more to highlight you bringing up self meta a lot, rather than defending yourself.

10 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I think you overestimate how much I think before I post :P.

But I'm finding that I can't actually argue with this section of your post, because you're right. Right about it being hard to trust what I say about my meta, right about how it's over-explainy, and about the differences in how I mentioned my e!meta and v!meta.

I appreciate you mentioning everything you did, because I think it more than anything else makes me aware of my meta and how I appear to people that aren't me. And while I don't super want to change my playstyle for future games because of being sussed D1, I probably will tweak how I voice meta thoughts and my suspicions to be more helpful to the thread. Me spewing whatever the heck I feel like is fun, maybe easy, but also not the most useful.

But this game? I'll go down with the ship if I have to.

That's very likely. But also believe that what people say when they aren't thinking is more alignment indicative than what they say when they are thinking. It's how I decide if a post is coming from a Village mindset or an Eliminator one. 

I'm glad you appreciate it  just like I appreciate this entire quote because it helps me understand your playstyle better. I hadn't realized that spewing whatever the heck you feel was a you thing rather than an alignment thing, and can see the possibility of Village!Epic!You pinging my Elim!Epic Detector for that reason.

But I also fear that will be something I can only feel confident about in retrospect, should you truly flip Village. Would hate to find out later my Elim!Epic Detector wasn't faulty and I let you slip through the cracks

---

9 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Here's a question for everyone, honest question: Would me role claiming be helpful?

I'll go with the consensus.

Personally, if other people who know you better think I'm onto something and keep you in the lead, then I'd say go for it. In the event you're going to flip anyway, better to give us a few hours to consider that information.

We still have a little under 24 hours left in this turn, though, so your life might not even be at risk.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Mat seems suspicious. Illwei does also. I am still keeping my vote on archer for the moment right now.

[Mat he/him]

4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Ok this is very much not a villagery post

But

I'm village

So it is

Why do you think that? What about it isn't villagery?

2 minutes ago, Archer said:

The line Thaid asking 'what's an elim?' felt genuine to me. 

I am leaning towards thinking they're probably just village, yeah.

I think Aman just posted again but I have to go for a few hours. Will respond to it eventually.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

ok I am ready to change my vote.

archer

Matrim

[---]

9 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Mat seems suspicious. Illwei does also. I am still keeping my vote on archer for the moment right now.

I personally thought that the specific post where they ask what an elim Is is an easy thing to be staged and there's no way of that looking genuine

This post however, very nice.

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

Me: leaves for the night

This thread: “83 new replies. Show 6 or go to first.”

Me:

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Me: leaves for the night

This thread: “83 new replies. Show 6 or go to first.”

Me:

lol. same here sort of. I woke up and there were three new pages. I just skipped em all and tried to pretend I knew what was happening.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Welcome to the game

Thaid's confusing me a bit. Aman and Kas are stabilizing. I don't know about Mat. He's aware, yeah, but those posts... idk. Seems desperate despite their being time. I don't know how to read that.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

I confuse myself sometimes ash.

[Ashbringer he/him]

We all do, a bit. 

[Mat he/him]

To the people saying I sound defensive and/or desperate:

Yeah. Last I checked, not wanting to die is NAI

Still unable to respond to Aman properly, still planning on it. If I’m still in the lead tonight (like 10 hours) I’ll role claim.

Edit: @Thaidakar the Ghostblood, why am I suspicious?

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

To the people saying I sound defensive and/or desperate:

Yeah. Last I checked, not wanting to die is NAI

On that note, I've got a general question for anyone regarding Mat.

On 2/10/2022 at 0:10 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

If I had a nickel for every time I was the leading train 2 hours into D1

I'd have like... six nickels. At least. If I had a nickel for every time I've died D1, I'd have one nickel.

On 2/10/2022 at 0:37 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die.

Does anyone know what games Mat was an elim who got votes D1 but didn't get exed?

If so, were they fairly early in the turn, or near the end? In either case, were his reactions similar to how they've been in this game?

Basically I'm wondering if he's less afraid when he knows allies could potentially save him.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

6 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

To the people saying I sound defensive and/or desperate:

Yeah. Last I checked, not wanting to die is NAI

Still unable to respond to Aman properly, still planning on it. If I’m still in the lead tonight (like 10 hours) I’ll role claim.

Edit: @Thaidakar the Ghostblood, why am I suspicious?

well, as other people are saying you sound desperate and your posts don't make sense. not that mine do. also the proof that other people make about you makes a lot of sense. also I am probably going to vote someone else next cycle when more info comes around.

[Mat he/him]

4 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, as other people are saying you sound desperate and your posts don't make sense. not that mine do. also the proof that other people make about you makes a lot of sense. also I am probably going to vote someone else next cycle when more info comes around.

Villagers definitely can be desperate too. What specific things don’t make sense to you? I’m happy to explain myself for anything, I just need to know what to explain. And yeah, if I die you’ll definitely vote someone else next cycle  

(For those wondering why I’m clearly here and not responding to Aman despite saying I’d be gone and would when I came back- I’m in a class, and have more free space than I was anticipating  Limited to mobile for the time being, and want to respond on desktop.)

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just so y’all know, I haven’t even finished page 6 yet. I probably won’t even be able to make a post once I’m caught up until later tonight. Still pretty busy today.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Just so y’all know, I haven’t even finished page 6 yet. I probably won’t even be able to make a post once I’m caught up until later tonight. Still pretty busy today.

Now y'all know how I felt waking up to Page 6 today 

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

I woke up to page seven or eight, can't remember

[Quivil she/her]

@Szeth_Pancakes @Thaidakar the Ghostblood

I'm pretty sure most of my first SE games I sounded desperate, especially when I was about to die to the lynch (or felt like I was) or when about three people were suspicious of me. I think being desperate in your first few SE games is NAI.

You're both still in your first few SE games, AFAIK.

[Mat he/him]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Sorry for any frustration that caused. To answer why, it's because I wanted to see how votes moved over a decent period of time without me giving reasons. If someone voting for you backed off when you got too far ahead, could be E/E. If someone else pushes for another candidate, or pushes against my furthering of the train, could suggest their an ally trying to save you. Also doesn't give elims a reason to vote you, too, if you are V. Plus I didn't want to point out the fact you have a role immediately, since it does play a large role in my wanting you dead

You're good, don't worry about it. And that makes sense, I can respect interaction info-fishing. Did you come to any conclusions? From what I saw, I didn't have a whole lot of people (if any) defending me, but that perspective easily could be skewed.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm very open-minded, I assure you but I also like exuding confidence to bait reactions.

If you did tell us, I would probably look at it thrice, then probably thrice more times  if you're Village, you'd have no reason to lie, so I would seriously consider it. I cannot say for certain if it would effect my read of you, though.

Again, understandable, I get baiting reactions.

I did mean strictly claiming alignment there, not role. But yeah  

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

I know the feeling, friend, and am sorry for perpetuating the trend. I will say that I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere if I find a good enough reason to believe you're Village, but from my PoV I just don't know yet, and enough posts of yours have stuck out to me that I need to resolve your slot either way (via flip or discussion).

I'll do my best  

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Since I didn't ask this explicitly but wanted an answer, I will now. Why did Szeth's opening (potential tell) in Tani's game warrant action? Why did Szeth's opening in this game not warrant action? What's different? 

Szeth's first post in Tani's game is here. Looking back on the game has made me realize I misremembered how it went down- I didn't call Szeth out in Tani's game for this post, I called him out for his first post C2 (which is tonally similar but not the same post). So I think what happened is that when I saw Szeth open the exact same way this game, I remembered that he opened like that in his last game (elim game) but not if he opened that way in other games. So I wasn't sure if it was a Szeth tell or an elim Szeth tell, and I didn't pursue it further. When I was questioned about my reasoning I misremembered Tani's game, but hopefully this clears anything up.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Ultimately what stood out to me was your defensive reaction, which lead to me trying to figure out where it's coming from.

It's coming from all the votes I've accumulated over the various points of the cycle.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

In lieu of bringing up v meta, I would recommend initiating a back-and-forth that makes the 'suser' explain their reasoning as much as possible, then attempt to meet them halfway / be willing to shrug it off if they can't be swayed. 

Noted. I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future. If nothing else, this game has been a good learning one for me

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Yeah, the quotes were more to highlight you bringing up self meta a lot, rather than defending yourself.

The reason I mentioned that is because I thought your reason for bringing up my self meta was about how I used it to defend myself, but I easily could have misread your intentions there.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

That's very likely. But also believe that what people say when they aren't thinking is more alignment indicative than what they say when they are thinking. It's how I decide if a post is coming from a Village mindset or an Eliminator one. 

Ha, fair.

Still looking for an explanation from @Illwei about why that post I made 'isn't villagery' and the specific reasons I'm confusing to @Thaidakar the Ghostblood, thanks

14 minutes ago, Tani said:

I'm pretty sure most of my first SE games I sounded desperate, especially when I was about to die to the lynch (or felt like I was) or when about three people were suspicious of me. I think being desperate in your first few SE games is NAI.

I mean

Last I checked I'm not in my first few SE games  

Edit: I will be closing the tab (promise) because I should be productive now

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Last I checked I'm not in my first few SE games  

they were talking to me and Szeth...

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

the specific reasons I'm confusing to @Thaidakar the Ghostblood, thanks

well, I just decided to vote for you because everyone else was and so I guess I like popular opinion? as I have said before I confuse myself sometimes.

[---]

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Why do you think that? What about it isn't villagery?

You say things like this as if it's supposed to mean anything. Why do you think this is a relevant question when you just MLd me in the long game after deciding that basically everything I said wasn't something that a villager says? 

8 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Dang, I was trying to bait a vote or something from you, but you didn't even respond to me

I'm not wasting my posts this game. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

I'm not wasting my posts this game. 

 I was trying to invite you into a conversation.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

LOL. @Illwei you are not going to waste any posts eh?

[Mat he/him]

27 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

they were talking to me and Szeth...

I'm the one people were saying sounded desperate.

27 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, I just decided to vote for you because everyone else was and so I guess I like popular opinion? as I have said before I confuse myself sometimes.

Yeah, be careful following popular opinion. It's often wrong, especially D1.

18 minutes ago, Illwei said:

You say things like this as if it's supposed to mean anything. Why do you think this is a relevant question when you just MLd me in the long game after deciding that basically everything I said wasn't something that a villager says? 

I mean, sure, but if I maybe made a mistake there you don't have to make the same one here. If you're not answering that, that's fine, I was just wondering if you would.