Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Mat he/him]

35 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I understand. You just seem a little suspicious like the rest of us. All of us are a little suspicious so we are not giving you extra suspicion. or at least I am not.

You still haven’t answered my question  

‘None’ is a valid answer

I v read you Illwei don’t worry :P.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

You still haven’t answered my question

‘None’ is a valid answer

I v read you Illwei don’t worry :P.

*groan* 

the question was who I trust right now?

well... no-one really. Though I think some people are more trustworthy than others.

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

*groan* 

the question was who I trust right now?

well... no-one really. Though I think some people are more trustworthy than others.

Alright, thanks.  Do you mind saying who those people are?

Sorry if I’m being too persistent- just trying to get a better read of you.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

Alright, thanks.  Do you mind saying who those people are?

Sorry if I’m being too persistent- just trying to get a better read of you.

um. I think TJ is kind of trustworthy but I am not to sure, Aman seems like an interesting person to think about and has some helpful opinions but I dont know if I trust them fully. well then I think Tani is trustworthy if only slightly. You never can be sure in SE.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

um. I think TJ is kind of trustworthy but I am not to sure,

Can you elaborate on this one?

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

Can you elaborate on this one?

well, I think TJ just seems trustworthy, it is more a gut feeling than a real thought.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, I think TJ just seems trustworthy, it is more a gut feeling than a real thought.

I’m fairly sure that TJ is the least trustworthy person in this whole endeavor. But to make sure, you are aware that TJ is the GM, and not a player, correct?

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

I’m fairly sure that TJ is the least trustworthy person in this whole endeavor. But to make sure, you are aware that TJ is the GM, and not a player, correct?

I do know that just not what that means. is a gm pretty much a person who can help both sides? also I know a gm is the creator of the game.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I do know that just not what that means. is a gm pretty much a person who can help both sides? also I know a gm is the creator of the game.

The GM has no alignment, no role, cannot vote, and will relentlessly troll you when given the opportunity. So being “suspicious” of him doesn’t really make sense.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Araris Valerian

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Araris Valerian said:

The GM has no alignment, no role, cannot vote, and will relentlessly troll you when given the opportunity. So being “suspicious” of him doesn’t really make sense.

oh. *rethinks life choices*

[Mat he/him]

Yeah, sorry if we confused you by relentlessly trolling TJ ourselves  He’s not a player, he’s just running the game.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

Yeah, sorry if we confused you by relentlessly trolling TJ ourselves  He’s not a player, he’s just running the game.

oh well.

[Experience he/him]

Gah. @Araris Valerian, you're making me want to remove my vote and move it, but there's two problems with that. One, I don't really have any idea who else to vote on, unless I vote on someone who has barely talked (which i'm not gonna do, because that's not going to help us in the slightest). Two, you're you. I'm... I'm going to keep my vote on you for now, as it's not anywhere near leading to your death. 

But actually, that's dumb reasoning hmm. Cause I should be using my vote where it matters, so... hmm. I'm gonna keep my vote where it is currently, and look at your posts and see where I come out. Also probably going to look at ash's posts as well. 

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1 minute ago, Experience said:

look at your posts and see where I come out.

This shouldn’t take long, since ignoring my exchange with Thaidakar, I only have a few (vote on Mat, dislike of Mat’s read on TJ, explanation to Kas, vote switch to you).

So far I’m against voting on Illwei, agree with Aman’s take on Archer, still need some thoughts about Stick.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

When does the next cycle start?

[Araris Valerian he/him]

38 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

When does the next cycle start?

Same time this one ends, which comes out to noon tomorrow, EST.

[Kasimir he/him]

H'okay. I've woken up just as everyone else is going to sleep, it seems. But this isn't bad because I feel dead inside and would like more sleep anyway. Before that, let me get updated and try to make one last push - for well, reasons I'm going to articulate in a bit. (Down there.)

7 hours ago, Experience said:

Not sure why me wanting PM's seems weird, but eh. 

I like PMs myself as a general attitude and as a place to work thoughts out; requesting it publicly just put me in mind of Ellie as being a showy way of saying you want to plug into the game/info networks or suggestive that you have things you want to say that you can't say in thread. Which is an odd perspective because it's usually the other way around: unless people have been secretly roleclaiming to you which is a strange proposition without PMs in the first place, anything you would say in a PM, you should be willing to say in the thread, even if in a more polished form.

5 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Entering the thread with a single somewhat strange read makes you noticeable. Exp did that with no concern, and elims normally take care not to draw too much attention.

Kas: I'm struggling to identify what the single strange read is. I currently think that's the post where Exp points to suspicion on Illwei, and suspicion on Illwei usually isn't strange.

I've liked Striker's vote pattern and his level of engagement.

Kas: I feel that it's something I don't have particular confidence on. Striker's mentioned before (see: AG8 dead doc) that he doesn't like voting without giving reasons, so I do wonder if he's trying to bait some kind of response. But I believe he's also mentioned that he's OOG busy. Feels like E!Striker would have put in a bit more effort to blend though, so I guess cautious agreement. Striker's shown he's willing to adapt to how he knows people will perceive him so I will never go all out on that.

No comment on his vote pattern as I see you clarify that later on.

1: I've mentioned multiple times how I'm a common face to vote on incorrectly D1- and your first mention of me outside of my name in red is citing one of these times. 2: Why is your second choice the person I'm currently voting on? My vote will likely move to self pres (it will move to self pres) but that's still interesting to me.

Kas: Could you articulate why? (Actually, why Danex in the first place?)

"Oh, he's elim... because he's elim." Like, I'm sorry, that's just not helpful :P. Most people most of the time don't give me the courtesy of telling me why I'm being voted on by them, and as a result I don't know why I'm so often a candidate early on and not later. Guess I just have one of those faces.

Why bother keeping it to yourself? I can't defend myself against accusations that aren't there. This looks like you don't have reasons. (I believe you do, but it still looks like that). I've kept things to myself as a villager before, but I think that if you're asked a direct question about your reasoning for your vote by the person you're voting on, you should answer.

Don't make me self pres on one of my only village reads :| I swear this always happens to me

Kas: I actually like one of Exp's later posts, so no, you're not in danger of it. I do have to retract outside this dialogue though. Making a mental note to do exactly that.

Very open mind, I see.

I can tell you what I'll flip right now, but you probably wouldn't look twice at it. My role is one that makes little sense for the elims to have, and I don't really want to claim it but I will if that'll help.

Kas: TBH, knowing TJ... Anyway, just gonna up and say you should claim if the train isn't moving, though preferably not early, since if the train stays put, it's info that would be known anyway.

Yes. Yes you should. At the very least allow me to understand and reply. It's not helpful to anyone to hold onto it when I could very well explain myself.

Sorry if I'm coming across as annoyed, it's not intentional. I'm just tired of this happening to me, because it happens a lot.  Most of the time ending in my survival, which is why I didn't do anything about the early votes on me, I just figured they wouldn't stick.

I see here that you're aware of all of these things, which is nice to see. I'm post-by-post replying to the thread (selecting the posts I reply to, I mean) in a notepad and then going to c/p and post it- point being that I haven't read anything beyond this at the time of typing this.

I mean, that's four, not seven. GM is the GM and Kas and Exp don't count as reads.

I would love to be a neutral again. Ironically the last time I was a neutral, you were the one telling everybody that I was.

This is something I do. I think I picked it up from Illwei, actually :P. imo if I'm pinged by someone village or otherwise it's more helpful to post something than not, but I see how it could be hard to read. I'll try to put reasons with my takes, though, I'm being super hypocritical :P. I explained a lot of them in this post, I think.

I think in general I'm a lot more nonchalance as village. But again I see how it's easier to read someone who's articulate, and I'll work on that.

I like that post, though. Good mindset.

Okay. The numbering method is a pain. I'm going to try editing yellow highlighted text into Mat's quote. Anything with a yellow highlight is from me. Let's see if that works better.

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Nice. You noticed the things that I hoped you (tbh anyone) would.

Observation #1: Matrim is not a Regular.

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First clue. Received a GM PM that prompted a question.

Second clue. Misses the fact that a Regular Villager would know Regulars exist.

While having a role =/= elim, it's something I noticed almost immediately, and somewhat informs my vote (given a preference for exeing a slot with a role to better understand the game's distro).

 

Kas: Yep. Did not want to call attention to it when I saw it initially. Not sure I'd agree with preferring to lynch people with roles, but that's probably something I can be talked around on - I'm well aware of games in which that hesitancy would've ended badly for Village.

Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny.

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I didn't mind the initial comment much tbh. But his response to Kas' feels over-explainy (something elims often do subconsciously due to a need to obscure their alignment). It also does little good making his initial read look better.

I wouldn't necessarily call two games a streak. The fact that he doesn't remember how Szeth opened in the anon game effectively reduces his sample size to one, which only weakens his original point (Szeth tell would need to be observed in multiple games to be confirmable).

Him not looking at "Gorilla's" opening + not bringing up V!Szeth games to confirm/deny if the supposed tell is plausible gives me the impression he's not super interested in solving an unknown slot, even while thinking he's noticed a reoccurring tell.

That, coupled with the fact that he apparently voted Szeth in Tani's game for doing something similar yet didn't plan on acting on it now, leaves me wondering what's different in this game? Why not pursue it further?

 

Kas: My initial read on Mat's response to my question was a sort of "I had thought this was a tell and I don't want to ML Szeth because I don't think it works as a tell." But seeing as Szeth by definition could not have been MLed for it in two games referenced, I'm more confused now on re-reading. I'll need to check for Mat's response, as I would agree with this take. I did a quick recheck of MR55 in which Szeth was V and didn't see that show up - Szeth also played a pretty good game there and was ultimately killed.

The 'what changed'? constrastive question is what I find most convincing, ultimately - if an Elim tell successfully caught you an Elim previously, why wouldn't you push the same point again, or at least pressure Szeth for it? It's a supposed tell leading to a ML that should get you to pull off, I think, or to commit to more caution, not the other way around.

Anyway, just as a matter of record - a quick check shows Szeth did the poke poke opening in QF58, and did a fun CR opening and then some distro thoughts for the recently concluded AG. I don't remember most of Szeth's playhistory but what's actually a bit interesting is Szeth also did a poke in QF54, which was his first Elim game, and a game I GMed, if a bit further back  

Where I'm torn is that I think/could see being bearish about that particular tell on the basis that Szeth claimed to be busy in QF58, and one could plausibly think it's less a tell and more Szeth being busy, but that's not the line Mat took here. QF54 is a bit further back in the past so I could see one discarding it as a datapoint.

Observation #3: Matrim is aware they're a frequent D1 exe candidate and wants us all to know it.

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This is probably the only reason I'm harboring doubts about voting him out today, which may very well be the point. I understand the frustration from either alignment, having dealt with a similar problem myself (though usually it's not D1 exes, but D3+). Unfortunate when you're Village because you might get misexed. Unfortunate when you're an Eliminator because you might get exed early for something you don't understand or is beyond your control. I feel his pain, which is why the least I can do is give my explanations now and invite a response + more discussion.

 

Kas: That didn't especially stand out to me, but my read of what you're saying is that it's NAI. I could see this coming up partly because of the mixed crowd, but at least over the past year since my reintroduction to SE, I've seen players - including myself, and also including Mat - make off-the-cuff references to past games or trends. Mat and I referencing how we always enter a mutual paranoia brawl ("shuffle squats") is one of them. So are people who get into ties with Illwei.

I'm aware Mat gets put on the D1 table quite a bit, Illwei also has a fairly short life expectancy. This is a bit of a digression, but around the time of LG74 - probably LG73? Maybe in a MR around that time? - Quinn, Illwei, and Mat, and a few other players were talking about how they disliked that the talkative players (and Mat is very talkative!) usually end up on the chopping block. I don't have enough time to hunt for those posts since that's a pretty big search grid, but here is a reference to E!Araris in LG74 talking about this trend (also with E!Illwei on the chopping block D1.)

FWIW, Araris mentioned in the Spiked doc that game that this is a meta point he'd defend regardless of the implications of his team. Respect for that.

Slight digression but I agree and am sympathetic to the frustration. My getting Night killed by C4 (in fact, C2 as a regular at the time of LG15b) trend used to really upset me in the past, and Meta telling Hael, Maili, and myself to do the SE Spartans thing was cold comfort back then. So I'm aware and I do remember.

Observation #4: Matrim doesn't like Striker's vote on him for poor logic, but doesn't appear to suspect Striker for it + later reads Striker as Village.

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Again, the first post gives me over-explainy vibes, and once again, the logic falls apart upon further scrutiny.

Note that he says, 1) "I mean, some of those times were right. I just didn't die," and 2) "But it's weird because from my perspective, I'm village in all these games, and don't see a difference in how I'm playing."

How can these two bolded statements be simultaneously true? Perhaps he's more focused on the "instantly mass-village read in one, mass-elim read in another" trend, but the overall reaction seems a lot more defensive when at that point, I don't think many people voiced suspicions of Mat. 

My initial thought is pressure opened up cracks in his forced (elim) takes, hence the forming of these logical oddities.

 

Kas: Not picking up the over-explainy vibes, but am aware my ability to base analysis off posts is always shaky/inconsistent. Will be looking for Mat's response to this later on/further thoughts from anyone. Am wary of overfixating on logic issues since my getting Creccio MLed in LG15b and overfixating on strategic disagreements since Orlok's ML in LG12.

I do feel E!Mat has a tendency to be more defensive than V!Mat, and that especially stood out to me in LG68, but that was Mat's first Elim game and he's got a lot more experience on him by now since that game was 2020. I also remember occasionally speccing a game where E!Mat successfully suppressed that tendency, and I think it was LG77. @Araris Valerian, since you play every game, do you recall if something of that sort went down?

V!Mat has been a bit more chill: off the top of my head, there's Swan's play in AG8, and there's LG79 where he nearly got MLed D1, but actually stuck to his formal voice anon playstyle despite pressure from Illwei (sorry Illwei!) on the basis that he seemed emotionally detached. There's also LG73 where he became the D2 CW because no one wanted to get Confirmed Good Archer killed and then...reasons.

Observation #5: Mat is hyperaware of his own Villager and Eliminator meta.

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While not exactly a reason to believe Mat is elim, the amount of times he's brought up his own V!Meta as a defense makes it difficult to trust his meta. Being aware of it means he can make a conscious effort while evil to do what he does when good.

That aside, what I have a real problem with is his response to Archer.

1. Uses firm language when talking about e!Mat (surely) as a defense from Archer's theory.
2. Uses uncertain language when talking about v!Mat (I think) to explain that he'd more likely reword things deliberately.
3. Talks down his self-meta while also frequently bringing up self-meta.

Once again, over-explainy. Why bother saying he's more likely to deliberately reword things as a Villager? If he did, why not outright confirm it? If he didn't, why does this info help? Why not just say "Nah, I was just making a casual joke," and leave it at that?

It all just feels defensive to me, and not in the Villager kind of way. Even small comments like this:

Give me, well, me vibes when I'm an elim, as evidenced by my last game. I probably mentioned knowing my alignment more than anyone, and I feel these kinds of statements are born from subconscious overcompensation.

 

Kas: Yes and no. I personally regard it to be a development in this SE generation - I'm aware that explicit meta arguments come up more often than they did in our heydays. As I'm aware you've played sporadically with some people from this gen, including in LG71, I'm going to state that my reference period is from when I came back for AG7 through the end of last year, so let's just make it AG7-AG8.

This became a central bone of contention between Quinn and Illwei in LG74, for instance. (The LG74 link to Araris I provided will also cover this clash since that's in the proximate region. Wouldn't recommend it as D1 was at least twelve pages ) You could argue this also formed part of the reason Archer and I clashed in LG79 - over oddities in my playstyle that came from my adapting to events in my SE playhistory.

But the key point you're making anyway is tonal - I don't disagree with your point on the E!/V!Mat language asymmetry and both the conscious bringing up and distancing from personal meta, I'm just not sure I read it the same way and/or would put that significance on it. This with the caveat that I can't read tone to that degree. Maybe I should start expanding my SE skillset because I'm a one trick pony right now.

I'm divided about the meta appeal. I think it tracks for this gen, but also agree it's a bit of an involved answer for a brief jab from Archer that didn't need that. Ultimately, given the background I've just laid out, this particular point isn't one that I'm going to put too much more stock on compared to the others.

This post is already longer than I'd like and I haven't read Mat's new post yet, so I'll cut this here and tackle the new stuff in the next one.

ED1T: 

Oh yeah, so basically I want people who know Mat to give their opinions on these observations. @Kasimir I acknowledge I could be tunneling and others know him better.

Kas: You called, I came  

Alright, there's no interleaving for this one, so this is going to be a bit of a mess :|

4 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

True

Also true. I didn't fact-check myself when I posted that, which is why I never pursued it further.

Kas: Why not, I guess? If you think however fleetingly that it's an Elim tell, why not fact check or pursue?

I mean, in a way, it's hypocritical of me to ask, because the direct contrast case here is basically why Araris's explicit chillness with votes gave me a negative gut, because immediately MR52 and LG78 flashed to mind where he was Evil and did the same thing. Except that since I was rechecking everything, I went to take a look and it's not in LG78 so I too have to question my memory. But it showed up in MR52, and I was strongly considering placing my final vote on him. Now I'm undecided because I have posts from him to catch up on. So companions in guilt I guess.

Also true  

I did initially suspect Striker for it (See the 'This though, I don't like'). I later read Striker village for a few different reasons- mainly his vote pattern. He unvoted me, which, sure, bias, but that shows that he's thinking about my slot more than just slapping a vote and not really revisiting me. And sort of the same thing as my v!Exp read; his vote pattern is erratic enough that I don't think an elim would bother drawing attention in that way. That's why my naked v read of Striker came directly after his naked vote change.

Kas: Tentatively agree with erratic vote pattern - it's a deviation from Striker's expressed play preferences so I don't feel strongly about it as I feel it could be influenced by his lack of bandwidth. Striker's also shown a willingness to change up his meta, and given the extent to which he attracts early sus, I am not the most strongly convinced on this read. @StrikerEZ - I'm curious if you'd attempt to tie the current trains. Y/N?

But does Exp have erratic vote patterns though?

This seems like splitting hairs to me. Obviously when I say "I'm village in these games" I'm referring to the section of games that I am village. Maybe a lot of people hadn't voiced suspicions on me, but at that point I was clearly the runaway train and from my PoV, a lot of people had voiced suspicion of me.

...Hyperaware, yes, but also very unconfident in my own awareness.

Kas: I approve of epistemic humility.

This is a good take, but as I've said before- hard to defend against accusations that aren't anything but 'Mat sus'. I bring up my v meta because that's all I can bring up.

Kas: I guess my question is: why feel a need to defend against that accusation? Archer wasn't really voting you and Archer has weird takes. One-liners that aren't votes don't necessarily need to be defended against and I lean a tad more E on people who do. Says the guy who will go on to pick a fight with Archer because I'm answering everything out of sequence...

Only one of those quotes was actually me defending myself, though.

I think you overestimate how much I think before I post :P.

But I'm finding that I can't actually argue with this section of your post, because you're right. Right about it being hard to trust what I say about my meta, right about how it's over-explainy, and about the differences in how I mentioned my e!meta and v!meta.

I appreciate you mentioning everything you did, because I think it more than anything else makes me aware of my meta and how I appear to people that aren't me. And while I don't super want to change my playstyle for future games because of being sussed D1, I probably will tweak how I voice meta thoughts and my suspicions to be more helpful to the thread. Me spewing whatever the heck I feel like is fun, maybe easy, but also not the most useful.

Kas: You do you, Shuffle Squat bro. My only counterpoint would be to change because you feel it's better for you, not because you feel compelled to, or else. This goes back to Meta and I talking about Jain in...urgh, I want to say LG12, but I know it was an earlier spec doc conversation in the period between MR3 and the AG. Anyway the point is, sometimes we do compel players to change and neither of us were convinced that it's a good thing per se. If you do want to, do it for you.

But this game? I'll go down with the ship if I have to.

Anyone have a VC?

Even more yellow!

4 hours ago, Experience said:

Okay, let's see where feelings about aman are coming from.

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Votes mat, no reasoning.

Honestly slight village feel for this cause if they were a village epic they would know that there are village epics.

Still doesn't give reason for mat vote.

Still refuses to give reasons.

Gives reasoning for why archer might be village, which is same reasoning why village cred above.

Or me. that would be grander.

Idk.

At this point, I'm leaning aman as village, because he's going out there and challenging what people are saying.

When. Was already pointed out, but hmm.

Idk.

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

Still not giving reasoning for mat.

Here they are xD.

NAI.

Says he'll give reasoning before rollover.

Wants the opinions of players who have played with mat more, and normally this would seem bad to me but aman is voting mat so...

Well. My gut feeling for aman after going through their posts are idk with a bit of a village lean. They did end up giving their reasoning for mat, and stuff about archer. 

I don't know if I'll have time to go through mat's posts or not, and I don't know if I really want to lol. But as of now, I'm not going to vote on mat, because I'm currently not thinking he's elim (though really just gut). Even if it means I end up getting lynched, and I just need to hope that mat has a better role than me. 

I... Experience. It's not the rational Village play since from your own perspective you're a confirmed Villager and Mat isn't but... Ugh, it's not rational but this is absolutely how I get about certain players I have very good reads on while Village (hi Wyrm) and it just, I just really can't keep seeing Experience as Evil in light of that :|

3 hours ago, Archer said:

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood, if you haven't already, in your GM PM, you should ask TJ to give you an example of how your role works and when and how you need to submit your actions. I've played more than a few games where I messed up because I misunderstood my role, so learn from my mistakes. :D.

The line Thaid asking 'what's an elim?' felt genuine to me. 

Ashbringer, my stance on the discussion of me is that I'm tentatively going to support the people who think I'm village. Just a hunch. :P. 

Kas missed the point of me making distro prompts entirely. 

Kas: I'm well aware of what you aim to achieve by it. I disagree that it's a good move here, though I've been convinced you're V, so that's one benefit that came out of it. Disagreement on Village strategy does not equate to 'missing the point' - it's perfectly possible to get what you thought to achieve and still disagree with it as a move, as both Illwei and I clearly do. A significant amount of my hesitation - as is clear from my posts - was really whether it's E!Archer or just Village strategic disagreement. I've now been convinced it's the latter and am going to move on.

Since when does STINK do ISOs?

Kas: Welcome to ancient!STINK.

I'll note that Mat brings up his meta a lot regardless of alignment and Aman calling his post possible tunneling when it seemed quite well reasoned to me strikes me as odd. On the other hand, just as I started thinking the Mat train caught on too easily, a number of other votes wandered in. Current theory is e!Illwei is protecting e!Mat by pushing a Stick mix. Stick's post about their voting hesitance felt villagery. 

Kas: Can't really disagree with that take.

It feels early to be roleclaiming, Mat, but I think you already know my stance on whether you should do it or not. :P. 

Kas: Sigh.

More yellow comments!

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

1: Yeah, I realized that, hence my wondering if this pattern would have pulled me into early suspicion of you too, had I not been an elim in that game. It does suggest your playstyle impacts others' perception of your slot (anon or not), though doesn't exactly confirm you're not an elim now.

2: While I don't want to say my reasons for considering Dannnex yet, I will say that I haven't ruled out you two being E/E. Nor have I ruled out that he could be E and you could be V.

Sorry for any frustration that caused. To answer why, it's because I wanted to see how votes moved over a decent period of time without me giving reasons. If someone voting for you backed off when you got too far ahead, could be E/E. If someone else pushes for another candidate, or pushes against my furthering of the train, could suggest their an ally trying to save you. Also doesn't give elims a reason to vote you, too, if you are V. Plus I didn't want to point out the fact you have a role immediately, since it does play a large role in my wanting you dead

Kas: Okay, that is fairly reasonable.

I'm very open-minded, I assure you but I also like exuding confidence to bait reactions.

Kas: Sigh, you and Illwei and Archer...

If you did tell us, I would probably look at it thrice, then probably thrice more times  if you're Village, you'd have no reason to lie, so I would seriously consider it. I cannot say for certain if it would effect my read of you, though.

I know the feeling, friend, and am sorry for perpetuating the trend. I will say that I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere if I find a good enough reason to believe you're Village, but from my PoV I just don't know yet, and enough posts of yours have stuck out to me that I need to resolve your slot either way (via flip or discussion).

---

Since I didn't ask this explicitly but wanted an answer, I will now. Why did Szeth's opening (potential tell) in Tani's game warrant action? Why did Szeth's opening in this game not warrant action? What's different? 

Definitely could be me splitting hairs (I'm pretty nitpicky), but I perceived a contradiction and had to address it. Ultimately what stood out to me was your defensive reaction, which lead to me trying to figure out where it's coming from.

In lieu of bringing up v meta, I would recommend initiating a back-and-forth that makes the 'suser' explain their reasoning as much as possible, then attempt to meet them halfway / be willing to shrug it off if they can't be swayed. 

Kas: Hmm. Would be interesting to see if this catches on with this gen  

Yeah, the quotes were more to highlight you bringing up self meta a lot, rather than defending yourself.

That's very likely. But also believe that what people say when they aren't thinking is more alignment indicative than what they say when they are thinking. It's how I decide if a post is coming from a Village mindset or an Eliminator one. 

I'm glad you appreciate it  just like I appreciate this entire quote because it helps me understand your playstyle better. I hadn't realized that spewing whatever the heck you feel was a you thing rather than an alignment thing, and can see the possibility of Village!Epic!You pinging my Elim!Epic Detector for that reason.

But I also fear that will be something I can only feel confident about in retrospect, should you truly flip Village. Would hate to find out later my Elim!Epic Detector wasn't faulty and I let you slip through the cracks

---

Personally, if other people who know you better think I'm onto something and keep you in the lead, then I'd say go for it. In the event you're going to flip anyway, better to give us a few hours to consider that information.

We still have a little under 24 hours left in this turn, though, so your life might not even be at risk.

Less yellow this time.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Welcome to the game

Thaid's confusing me a bit. Aman and Kas are stabilizing. I don't know about Mat. He's aware, yeah, but those posts... idk. Seems desperate despite their being time. I don't know how to read that.

Don't strongly feel desperation should skew one way or another but I think I noted my ambivalence about E!Mat and the extent to which he gets defensive or desperate. Did you play LG77? You must've right? Kandra game? Did that happen?

Anyway, will absolutely acknowledge that playstyle stuff aside, desperation could go either way - possible for Villager too. So I guess it's back to the context. I'm just really answering everything piecemeal and will probably have to make an evaluation at some point. 

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

On that note, I've got a general question for anyone regarding Mat.

Does anyone know what games Mat was an elim who got votes D1 but didn't get exed?

If so, were they fairly early in the turn, or near the end? In either case, were his reactions similar to how they've been in this game?

Basically I'm wondering if he's less afraid when he knows allies could potentially save him.

Off the top of my head, I have no idea. The games I can recall involving E!Mat were...lessee, MR53, but he got converted C3 so that's not really relevant here, and I believe he absolutely roleclaimed when the lynch was creeping closer to him. I don't recall him coming close to getting the votes on him D1 in QF51 - @Archer GMed that and should know; I'm not going near that mess with Quinn and Illwei spamming the thread.

Don't recall him being up for the lynch D1 in LG68. Attracted sus but no votes. No further comment since I've largely played with V!Mat than E!Mat. I...don't even recall GMing E!Mat, come to think of it.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Now y'all know how I felt waking up to Page 6 today 

How did you think I felt GMing LG74 and dealing with them making a 12 page D1 thread :|

And then there was TJ's QF50 which had the longest C1 ever and many returning players were silently weeping to the IM :|

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

You're good, don't worry about it. And that makes sense, I can respect interaction info-fishing. Did you come to any conclusions? From what I saw, I didn't have a whole lot of people (if any) defending me, but that perspective easily could be skewed.

Again, understandable, I get baiting reactions.

Kas: Yeah. I definitely do.

I did mean strictly claiming alignment there, not role. But yeah  

Kas: Why would strictly claiming alignment come up though? Like - are you trying to hint you're neutral? Because looking back at what Aman was saying and you were responding to...why would an alignment claim make a difference? Because if you're Village, you're basically claiming Village, which is no different from how you've been operatively approaching this game anyway, I'm not going to open the claim Elim can of worms (thanks Illwei, thanks kel ), which means the only viable move is you suggesting you're neutral.

I'll do my best  

Szeth's first post in Tani's game is here. Looking back on the game has made me realize I misremembered how it went down- I didn't call Szeth out in Tani's game for this post, I called him out for his first post C2 (which is tonally similar but not the same post). So I think what happened is that when I saw Szeth open the exact same way this game, I remembered that he opened like that in his last game (elim game) but not if he opened that way in other games. So I wasn't sure if it was a Szeth tell or an elim Szeth tell, and I didn't pursue it further. When I was questioned about my reasoning I misremembered Tani's game, but hopefully this clears anything up.

Kas: I'm still a bit ??? about why you wouldn't check if unsure because I absolutely misremembered Araris but was fairly convinced that E!Araris did that, and hence adding him to my final vote candidate pool. But IDK. Again, can't really hold that against you if I was too tired to go back and check in detail myself /shrug

It's coming from all the votes I've accumulated over the various points of the cycle.

Kas: I get that, I'm just starting to lean towards the perspective that this is - it's just a codeswitch from Swan's D1, and the more I look at that, the more I feel that it's just two different modes of play. Perhaps I'm overreading because I now know Swan was Village, and D1 Meerkat absolutely did not know that or have that perspective. But I also feel that you were more - urgh, for lack of a better word, Village. You were actively trying to resolve those confusions, and proactively looking at the bigger Village picture and just look at this Swan post:

I feel like that's something I'm not seeing now and I don't know if I'm just tired/have been coaxed to join a tunnel. Because I feel like my main read of you right now is reactive, and that's a hair close to defensive because you're not looking for resolution, you're looking to defend from the angles of attack, if that makes sense.

Noted. I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future. If nothing else, this game has been a good learning one for me

Kas: Gonna be honest that - eh, well, I'll say it a bit below so you'll see it then.

The reason I mentioned that is because I thought your reason for bringing up my self meta was about how I used it to defend myself, but I easily could have misread your intentions there.

Ha, fair.

Still looking for an explanation from @Illwei about why that post I made 'isn't villagery' and the specific reasons I'm confusing to @Thaidakar the Ghostblood, thanks

Kas: See, that's where I feel like - if you do change, and you do want to change, don't lose Swan's willingness to look for resolution, and to be proactively helpful even under pressure. Because I feel like this here is the letter of what Aman was saying but not the spirit. Because I go back to D1 and I really liked your play there. It was very much about Team Village rather than you, and I can respect that.

I mean

Last I checked I'm not in my first few SE games  

Kas: To Araris, you all are  

Edit: I will be closing the tab (promise) because I should be productive now

Kas: I feel this :|

I am the King in Yellow!

44 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

From what I remember, I don't turn to pocketing first unless there's PMs, and I usually like to try newer players. You I'd PM because you'd probably find it weird if I didn't, and sure pocketing you would be very helpful but I'd probably hesitate to actively try to do it because I'd be nervous that you'd catch on.

:thonk:

I don't think this is AI at all, tbh. Playstyles aren't a set thing.

This, but also, that'd be a bit of a throwback closer to the LG15 era STINK than current STINK. But I think SE meta is generally (right now) against finding playstyle shifts suspicious, or lynching people for it. I consider that a good change.

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

Again, another game where I'm kinda baffled at how people are finding me suspicious. 

Has there been a game where you are not baffled at people finding you suspicious?

46 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I've been absolutely open with everything I'm thinking to a degree I'm not usually. I'm not inactive despite saying I thought I would be. I'm reading up on all the pages and not peacing out with "too many pages I'll be back." I've been looking for villagers and have identified why I think each of them are villagery and I even slightly pushed an Elim read and fully explained what about them was suspicious. I haven't openwolfed, I haven't spammed thread with useless banter, I haven't antagonized anyone or got in a big fight. 

It just astonishes me that there are people still find me suspicious after all that.

I take the point. I'm still concerned that I'm light V-reading you at this juncture, but whatever. I don't have the time/bandwidth to sort out why I'm still worried about you properly, and as we spoke about in AG8, it's possible I just have a higher degree of paranoia where you're concerned.

I'm not going to deny this post probably swayed me a bit more than it should because rationally, you're right, and the paranoid part of my brain also says that it frustrates me when people do paranoid on me out of some kayana expectation I can actually play Elim well. Which isn't what's going down here in your case but I do feel the struggle with paranoia because others have expectations of us, so yeah. Guess I'm just going to stick with my light V read of you for now :/

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

*groan* 

the question was who I trust right now?

well... no-one really. Though I think some people are more trustworthy than others.

This is a good attitude to have in SE. Absolute trust is dangerous and gets your top trust putting five knives in your back and then killing you and betraying you and your team  (I know this is a suspiciously specific statement and it happened to me.) Trusts should usually be relative, and - like suspicions - you should be willing to revise them in response to incoming evidence.

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, I think TJ just seems trustworthy, it is more a gut feeling than a real thought.

Okay, you know what, soddit. By this point, Thaid is way too committed to being lost if he were an Elim, and I can't see the Elim team in this game going back and learning from Mark, or leaving him this actively lost. He's just that lost, can the GM/IM please, for the love of god, give him a tutorial in his GM PM or get a spectator to do it because this is starting to border on player cruelty. I've said it a few times, Archer's said it once. Village reading Thaid, soddit. ( @|TJ|, @Elandera, chebal....)

1 hour ago, Araris Valerian said:

This shouldn’t take long, since ignoring my exchange with Thaidakar, I only have a few (vote on Mat, dislike of Mat’s read on TJ, explanation to Kas, vote switch to you).

So far I’m against voting on Illwei, agree with Aman’s take on Archer, still need some thoughts about Stick.

And Araris is determined to test my resolve to squint at him :/ Bah. Agreed on Archer and Illwei, though should note the blatant Devo erasure here as Devo advanced that take, even if later than Aman  

Alright guys.

Best effort basis. I now need to ask a favour of y'all. If you see me post on the thread more than twice tomorrow (well, later today from my perspective), please yell at me. I'm getting dragged into trying to work this cycle out a bit more than I can currently afford to be, and I am required by the lecturer to pre-submit my exam by the day after tomorrow and then present my results/findings/completed exam on Monday, so this is unideal.

Gonna resay this primarily for Aman's and Stick's benefit as it's been a while since we played together and I think current playerbase is largely aware of my views: am happy to blue my exam/work situation in detail on request, but I personally dislike using blue text as the default without it being asked because I regard it as contributing to creating a norm where non-blue text becomes automatically suspect and I don't think that's a healthy communal norm.

Obviously if I'm done with the exam faster than I expect to be, I will comment on having been done in the thread, in which case I do not need to be yelled at  

I've also gotten ninjaed maybe fifty times while writing this for which I have no one but myself to blame.

Don't really want the multi-quote life anymore, though I'm sort of sticking with it because I think it's a good way to force myself to catch up or comment on some points of interest.

Sigh. Going to lean with Mat, which amusingly makes my swap with Araris one of net zero. I'll be honest, the one thing that swung me was the last few exchanges. I just feel like Swan was more - active in trying to resolve conflict and solve, for lack of a better framing. Which is laughable since I only have that clarity now and D1 Meerkat sure went back and forth about Swan :/

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Hey @Kasimir I am getting better. sort of. but now I know what gms are and I think I fully understand this. I think.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Okay Kas you quoted me somewhere in there where is it

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

Don't strongly feel desperation should skew one way or another but I think I noted my ambivalence about E!Mat and the extent to which he gets defensive or desperate. Did you play LG77? You must've right? Kandra game? Did that happen?

Anyway, will absolutely acknowledge that playstyle stuff aside, desperation could go either way - possible for Villager too. So I guess it's back to the context. I'm just really answering everything piecemeal and will probably have to make an evaluation at some point. 

Yes, I did play LG77. However, I was both far less active than I wanted to and a fellow Elim of Mat's, so my memory on that count is a bit skewed. I just know I tend to get desperate as an Elim unless I'm consciously letting myself die, which, well, happens more than usual. But probably not fair to put that on Mat, even if we do seem similar at times. 

It's probably been long enough that I can look to see if I can move somewhere, but I certainly got the ball rolling, eh?

[MintSilverTea]

Can I say, very confused atm. How the heck do I figure out who to vote??? CONFUSED

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

4 minutes ago, MintSilverTea said:

Can I say, very confused atm. How the heck do I figure out who to vote??? CONFUSED

I don't know, just vote Mat he seems the most suspicious.

[Experience he/him]

Araris. Ashbringer.

4 minutes ago, MintSilverTea said:

Can I say, very confused atm. How the heck do I figure out who to vote??? CONFUSED

You vote on people you think are suspicious. It's harder at the beginning of the game, because we have next to no information, so just do your best and vote on people that you think might be bad.

[Mat he/him]

35 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

It's probably been long enough that I can look to see if I can move somewhere, but I certainly got the ball rolling, eh?

*Sighs*

(Below is response to Kas, I'm chill, if my tone seems upset/annoyed just know that I'm chill )

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: Could you articulate why? (Actually, why Danex in the first place?)

Why'd I vote Dannnex? It was like an hour into C1. What more reason does an early C1 vote need :P.

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: Why not, I guess? If you think however fleetingly that it's an Elim tell, why not fact check or pursue?

I don't see why I need to lol

I saw Szeth's post, remembered he did that last elim game, and posted a sentence about it. That's it. I revisited it later when it became an issue but I didn't need to when I first thought of it. Like, the answer to your question is 'because I didn't' :P.

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: I guess my question is: why feel a need to defend against that accusation? Archer wasn't really voting you and Archer has weird takes. One-liners that aren't votes don't necessarily need to be defended against and I lean a tad more E on people who do. Says the guy who will go on to pick a fight with Archer because I'm answering everything out of sequence...

I don't have answer for this. I don't want to die? It's my playstyle and personality? What do you expect me to say xD

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: You do you, Shuffle Squat bro. My only counterpoint would be to change because you feel it's better for you, not because you feel compelled to, or else. This goes back to Meta and I talking about Jain in...urgh, I want to say LG12, but I know it was an earlier spec doc conversation in the period between MR3 and the AG. Anyway the point is, sometimes we do compel players to change and neither of us were convinced that it's a good thing per se. If you do want to, do it for you.

In this case I do think it's a positive change for me and will hopefully make me a better player. Thanks

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: Why would strictly claiming alignment come up though? Like - are you trying to hint you're neutral? Because looking back at what Aman was saying and you were responding to...why would an alignment claim make a difference? Because if you're Village, you're basically claiming Village, which is no different from how you've been operatively approaching this game anyway, I'm not going to open the claim Elim can of worms (thanks Illwei, thanks kel ), which means the only viable move is you suggesting you're neutral.

Because I was making a joke :P. I'm not a neutral, it was just me being all "I could say I'm village, would that help :lol:"

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I feel like that's something I'm not seeing now and I don't know if I'm just tired/have been coaxed to join a tunnel. Because I feel like my main read of you right now is reactive, and that's a hair close to defensive because you're not looking for resolution, you're looking to defend from the angles of attack, if that makes sense.

What's the difference? That I'm not trying to solve, just trying to defend myself? You say this more, so more on this later. But. I don't like that accusation :(.

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Kas: See, that's where I feel like - if you do change, and you do want to change, don't lose Swan's willingness to look for resolution, and to be proactively helpful even under pressure. Because I feel like this here is the letter of what Aman was saying but not the spirit. Because I go back to D1 and I really liked your play there. It was very much about Team Village rather than you, and I can respect that.

Yeah, I get that. Ok.

More further down-

50 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Sigh. Going to lean with Mat, which amusingly makes my swap with Araris one of net zero. I'll be honest, the one thing that swung me was the last few exchanges. I just feel like Swan was more - active in trying to resolve conflict and solve, for lack of a better framing. Which is laughable since I only have that clarity now and D1 Meerkat sure went back and forth about Swan :/

Ok. Trying to articulate myself, here goes...

Your main problem is that in a very recent village game I was more active in trying to solve while also defending myself, as opposed to just the latter here. Which is true- I don't dispute that- and while I do agree that I probably should be doing a better job at that, I don't think this is a very fair accusation for this other reason (which is actually multiple points, but it boils down to-)

The two game situations you present are vastly different. In the AG, I was not the runaway train, I was one of multiple options being discussed. The majority of this thread has been entirely focused on my alignment, whereas the AG had multiple candidates actually being discussed. I could focus on those other options while simultaneously defending myself, but doing the same in this game would require a lot more from me than it did there. Which isn't an excuse not to, but it is something.

Another factor here is the kind of posts I'm responding to. Nothing against you or Aman at all, but it's significantly easier responding to the kind of pressure I was receiving in the AG than it is to respond to massive multiquote after massive multiquote  It's entirely eaten up the time I'm spending on the game, and I don't really think it's fair for me to leave you hanging. I've mentioned multiple times that I wanted to make a reads list (still do) but I have not had the time to sit down and do that because every time I open the thread, there's something else for me to respond to.

There's other things I could say, like the fact that D1 of the AG I still had basically no idea who anyone was which changed how I viewed the accusations on me and the solving I was trying to do, or that because it was an anonymous game I couldn't use meta to defend myself.

That actually is a key thing, I think. Huh. I've spent a lot of time, as has been noted, on comparing my meta, but in the AG where I couldn't do that, I actually got some good solving in. Noted.

Hopefully that all makes sense :/

6 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I don't know, just vote Mat he seems the most suspicious.

This is extremely triggering to me because you yourself admitted that you're only voting me because other people are

Don't say I seem the most suspicious when you haven't given any of your own reasons :P.

(Again, not upset, just... I don't even know xD)

5 minutes ago, Experience said:

Araris. Ashbringer.

Trusts voting on trusts. Lovely.

Reads list will come before the end of the turn, I want to leave y'all with something. But I'm not going to do that now because I think my head will work better if I step away for a little bit  

Role claiming in fourish hours.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This is extremely triggering to me because you yourself admitted that you're only voting me because other people are

Don't say I seem the most suspicious when you haven't given any of your own reasons :P.

(Again, not upset, just... I don't even know xD)

sorry. (I don't even know, myself.)

[Ashbringer he/him]

10 minutes ago, MintSilverTea said:

Can I say, very confused atm. How the heck do I figure out who to vote??? CONFUSED

Welcome! Sorry, we went a little crazy. I do that sometimes. I'm just trying to direct it to nicer places.

Generally just vote how you want to. Can do that a few ways. If you don't have much time, just look at the leaders and pick one or the other, or wait for it to calm down to two-three. Otherwise, scroll through until something sticks out as strange, add a vote and an @ and ask them what they meant. Or just roll a die or something. We've got essentially no information, so the only wrong way to play is one that everyone else decides is wrong.

I'd avoid voting how other people are voting / wanting you to vote, though. Working off other analysis is fine, but can lead to some implicit shortcomings (case in point: the analysis this cycle is aimed at, what, three people?). 

 

Hi Experience! I take it you think I'm suspicious.

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

*Sighs*

More so proud of myself for voting first for possibly the first time in my life, I forget. Then people vote after me, then people vote with me, then there's lots to talk about.