Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

LG74's given me enough reason to be more afraid of a half-hearted mass claim than a full one. So I'd be alright. Prefer not to, but eh.

I prefer not to either, but I think the lack of a flip is really ticking me off. My thought behind the mass claim suggestion really boils down to the fact we've not been observing a NK (unless we think Devo did use the NK C2) - but the game can't be that broken, or it'd never have gotten El and Elan's approval. So there must be something we're not seeing, and I highly suspect that for that, it'd help to know how the roles interface with each other. There has to be an underlying logic. For instance, it'd be weird if Archer's is the only one that interacts with the lack of alignment flips. (Also, that seems to imply that if we did find a way to switch flips on, Archer's powers go away? How does that work?)

Sort of like Tyrian - if you see a lot of Thugs/Lurchers, start worrying about E!Coinshot.

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Oh and because I spent a couple hours down the no elim starting team / no elim nk rabbit hole yesterday only to find out it was a waste of time:

Yeah. He also said it's a standard game and to stop getting exotic so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

In Devo's defense, she's done similar things as Vyre, specifically not going for one wincon that needed her to kill the other Neutral (Battar / Mat) in my LG. 

It's not a point against Devo. I'm making the same point as I did about Striker back when we thought the bounce and imperviousness was real. Basically, why would a GM put a role into the game if all the role had to do to win was probably put in three kills back to back, or vote on someone? Look at how target-rich in Epics the environment is. Granted, hitting an Elim Epic is harder (and if Devo is telling the truth, implies there are Elim Epics - which we already knew, but it's good to doublecheck since we're apparently all experiencing an SE-existential crisis right now.) 

On the other hand, Striker kept claiming he had a mysterious wincon but was also invulnerable to NKs. Which, if true, again seemed strange because if he could only die to the lynch, then his role becomes one that is extremely dependent on the Village for survival and victory - and that's just odd, because why are you a neutral then?

To put it another way, the difficulty level for Devo's wincon seems so low right now I'm a little suspicious of whether it's correct. But then, it does make a bit more sense with obscured alignments.

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Honestly... I'm not sure if Devo's scan only reveals Epic vs not Epic or more about them, but maybe scan Archer unless we decide to stab him. Having our resident Neutral Killing know about Archer's full capabilities is just fine by me.

If it reveals more about them, I'm down for it. If it doesn't, what's the point? Archer called the lack of flips before it played out. That gives him fairly high Epic credence in my book. I'm actually surprised @Tani hasn't tried stealing Archer's powers as that might be useful in terms of giving us info.

[Ashbringer he/him]

19 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

If it reveals more about them, I'm down for it. If it doesn't, what's the point? Archer called the lack of flips before it played out. That gives him fairly high Epic credence in my book. I'm actually surprised @Tani hasn't tried stealing Archer's powers as that might be useful in terms of giving us info.

I'm not giving too much credit to Devotary telling us how strong her scan is. But if it is more powerful, and Devotary wants to find Elim Epics, Archer's a good place to look

Tani's a good call too, but Tani also makes me nervous.

24 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It's not a point against Devo. I'm making the same point as I did about Striker back when we thought the bounce and imperviousness was real. Basically, why would a GM put a role into the game if all the role had to do to win was probably put in three kills back to back, or vote on someone? Look at how target-rich in Epics the environment is. Granted, hitting an Elim Epic is harder (and if Devo is telling the truth, implies there are Elim Epics - which we already knew, but it's good to doublecheck since we're apparently all experiencing an SE-existential crisis right now.) 

On the other hand, Striker kept claiming he had a mysterious wincon but was also invulnerable to NKs. Which, if true, again seemed strange because if he could only die to the lynch, then his role becomes one that is extremely dependent on the Village for survival and victory - and that's just odd, because why are you a neutral then?

To put it another way, the difficulty level for Devo's wincon seems so low right now I'm a little suspicious of whether it's correct. But then, it does make a bit more sense with obscured alignments.

TBH one of the things I was worried about was Striker being a Veteran kill-everyone-who-touches-you role. Claiming that it autoredirected to a member of your own team... that breaks so much. 

But that makes sense. Don't trust Devotary. But I still think of all the SKs we could get, Devotary's one that will negotiate, or at least play along until greener pastures come.

[---]

6 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: When you're done trying to be cute, did you by any chance redirect Mat to himself C1?

Trying? as if.

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

@Illwei - You play quite a bit offsite. How do you guys handle flipless?

Yeah...That's honestly something i was looking at today. Mostly has to do with creating teams that work together-Worldbuilding. I think mat is village personally, so I'm not going to look more into that one, but i suppose if I were to be thorough I'd look at things to see how things would make sense as him being an Elim and supposedly who'd be on his team purely off of reactions to his flip/reactions to the wagon. Then do the same with Karn.

Even when someone is village looking into how things played out and who you think the Elims would be on them if they are. Pretty much standard stuff that you'd see people doing regardless, but this time it's pretty much the only way to solve the game. I figure the PoE will need to be structured differently so that it can allow for E/lo to play out in...idk. A way that works.

So yeah. Pretty much associatives/Worldbuilding. Tried to spell it out more for the newer players so someone lmk if I'm not making sense.

The lack of a NK is somewhat concerning.

You don't have to explore every possibility because that's exhausting, but. You kinda do. but not really.

there being neutrals/people claiming neutral really muddies things though, as you can't confirm that. I'm unironically just ignoring all alignment claims pretty much.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

@Illwei So you're claiming a redirection role yeah? Epic or Non-Epic?

Yes, Epic.

Anyways....where did archer even go?

[Amanuensis he/him]

Blink didn't understand why he was still here. He'd slept twice in that dark, unfeeling void only to awaken in the same place he laid his weary head, surrounded by ice and snow and these strange, murderous 'Epics.' It just didn't make sense, and though his imaginary friend assured him there was a good reason, he didn't explain enough. He never explained enough.

'Just watch and listen,' Mr. Aman had told him on the first day. 'Observe them and this world, then tell me what you learn.'

Blink had been observing the best he could without giving himself away. He'd learned so much and so little at once, and it all just left him lost, scared, and confused. But that wasn't exactly new.

Take, for starters, that the others could see and hear Mr. Aman too. The enigmatic, spectacled, gray-haired man with a pair of white eyes and golden pupils that shone like the blazing sun in the blue sky above. He interacted with them frequently, acting both as a voice of reason and a source of levity in this cold, unforgiving wasteland. He'd even become real, as proven by the white cloak he offered the boy, which shaped itself to fit Blink's meager stature and contained the warmth of Summer. Mr. Aman had never been able to give him gifts before.

It was clear this wasn't the same Earth that Blink had been born in. The one he was from didn't have a blue sky anymore, nor a golden sun. Their sun had grown twice its size and turned a deep, bloody shade of red, like an infected blister. The sky itself had been stained black with volcanic ash, thanks to the simultaneous eruption of Yellowstone and its active brethren around the globe. And the people that gained powers in the wake of the devastation - the people like Blink - were known by an entirely different name. Reborn. There was no such thing as Reckoners either, though they were clearly the good guys. Not too unlike the heroes from his world that fought so desperately to preserve the fragmented remnants of human civilization.

I just want to go home, Blink sniffled to himself. I'm too young for this. Too weak for this. Too cowardly for this.

Why can't I ever find my way home?

---

ED1T:

Amanuensis.

I'm kind of compelled to let myself die to see if only people with roles flip without alignment. I'd be happy to let Devotary kill me to achieve the same effect, since I'd prefer a more productive exe, but the small number of Regulars is concerning and I really don't understand why myself and TUA exist if more than half the players have roles.

Otherwise, I'd want to kill Archer today. Their role has never really made sense to me due to the number of claimed limitations. I waited this long to kill him to see if we'd ever get an alignment flip, but alas, my suspicions on that front were correct.

ED2T:

Also who's gonna own up to giving me (Araris) a one-time-use Soother role? I'm not even sure I believe Araris, so confirmation from a third party would be stellar.

ED3T:

Amanuensis	Regular Reckoner
Illwei	Claimed Epic ([Redirector])
Matrim’s Dice	Non-Epic Knighthawk Scientist
Experience	Claimed Epic (D-coy [Lurcher])
Kasimir	Claimed Epic (Inception [Rioter])
StrikerEZ	Claimed Neutral Epic (Mimic [Action Doubler)
The Unknown Aon	Regular Reckoner
Araris Valerian	Claimed Epic (WiMP [Action Swapper])
Ashbringer	Claimed Epic ([Fun])
Tani	Claimed Epic (Robin Hood [Ability Steal])
Karnatheon	Epic (Pendulum [Rioter])
Devotary of Spontaneity	Claimed Neutral Non-Epic (Huntress [SK])
Archer	Claimed Epic (Medium)
STINK
_Stick_	Claimed Epic (Passive Survival + ???)
Szeth_Pancakes
MintSilverTea
JNV
Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Claimed Epic (Unknown)
Orlok Tsubodai	Claimed Epic (Lookout)
Dannnex

ED4T:

@Tani when you stole Stick's ability D1, did you find out what the ability is? Or do you not know until you use it?

ED5T:

@_Stick_ why are you the only one with multiple facets to your role? Other than Devo, I suppose, but that's a whole different issue to address that I really don't feel like doing atm.

ED6T:

@StrikerEZ now might be a good time to make your win con more clear.

ED7T:

On 2/14/2022 at 10:40 AM, |TJ| said:

Karnatheon (6): Experience, Kasimir, StrikerEZ, Ashbringer, Tani, Devotary of Spontaneity, Amanuensis
Devotary of Spontaneity (5): Araris Valerian, Karnatheon, Archer, _Stick_, JNV
StrikerEZ (2): STINK, Thaidakar the Ghostblood

1 vote lost on Karn
No vote lost or gained on Devo
@Kasimir's riot failed, so his vote shouldn't have canceled

Wut???

ED8T:

22 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Maybe I should take this as a sign to engage dgaf mode because it's clear I'm not going to get what I need to do my own small part as a player ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I highly recommend engaging dgaf mode. We can still try to figure this puzzle out, but no ML guilt!

ED9T:

17 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

1 vote lost on Karn
No vote lost or gained on Devo
@Kasimir's riot failed

Wut???

Karn definitely redirected a vote from himself onto Devo, which means a Soother had to remove a vote from Devo, right? Never mind I'm dumb, that checks out, I think?

ED10T:

@Devotary of Spontaneity if your win con is to kill 1 Village Epic and 1 Elim Epic and the exe counts for it, did you get told Karn's alignment so you know what half of your win con you still need to do?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[---]

Anyways, I have recently been reminded that I am an actual god.

time to look at mat and karn associatives.

Ashbringer

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Anyways, I have recently been reminded that I am an actual god.

time to look at mat and karn associatives.

Ashbringer

Epics and their god-complexes smh.

Did I miss who you redirected C1?

[---]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Epics and their god-complexes smh.

Did I miss who you redirected C1?

Just played a game where my PoE was purely wolves from D2 to D4, when I died. Nothing can bring me down.

did you miss? probably.

[Ashbringer he/him]

14 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Anyways, I have recently been reminded that I am an actual god.

time to look at mat and karn associatives.

Ashbringer

Hello!

I’d ask why, but that’s been less effective so far, and I’m going to sleep so I won’t see anyway.

Plus I’ve got a hunch why. All will be explained in time.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Just played a game where my PoE was purely wolves from D2 to D4, when I died. Nothing can bring me down.

did you miss? probably.

Good work! Hope you can do the same in this game.

Though it'd be helpful if you answered the question you know I asked  Who did you redirect C1?

[---]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Good work! Hope you can do the same in this game.

it's consistent

I'm consistent

and also realizing you did indeed come back from your shopping trip

Edited February 15, 2022 by Illwei

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

it's consistent

I'm consistent

and also realizing you did indeed come back from your shopping trip

Indeed

But why no answer?

[---]

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Indeed

But why no answer?

you tell me

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

you tell me

Alright, thanks for wasting my time <3

 

[---]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Alright, thanks for wasting my time <3

Wait, apologies if there's negative emotion here.

[Stick. she/her]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

ED5T:

@_Stick_ why are you the only one with multiple facets to your role? 

I don't know xD I suppose we can't assume that out of all the claims we've got, some people didn't hide some aspects of their role? Realistically speaking, I never intended to reveal the fact that I would survive one attack until i actually did. Other shenanigans with Exp's role and Striker's role kinda messed things up but.

Also the more I think about this flips issue the more I keep coming back to the implication of PMs and 'events'. I feel like we (or maybe neutrals?) have to trigger something, idk, just spitballing 

edit: some intel from archer would probably clear things up @Archer also never responded to my question last cycle like what was the purpose of saying stuff to Mat from here i thought you got a doc to speak with the dead?

Edited February 15, 2022 by _Stick_

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I don't know xD I suppose we can't assume that out of all the claims we've got, some people didn't hide some aspects of their role? Realistically speaking, I never intended to reveal the fact that I would survive one attack until i actually did. Other shenanigans with Exp's role and Striker's role kinda messed things up but.

Also the more I think about this flips issue the more I keep coming back to the implication of PMs and 'events'. I feel like we (or maybe neutrals?) have to trigger something, idk, just spitballing 

Just confirming, since it appears to be the implication; you are not a Neutral yourself, yes?

Are there any Village Epics willing to claim multiple facets to their roles?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Stick. she/her]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

Just confirming, since it appears to be the implication; you are not a Neutral yourself, yes?

Nope, not a neutral

Feel like TJ wouldnt have PAFO'd my random neutrals-related queries if I was xD

[---]

More convinced Aman is village after this. I'm much more tolerable when the person having to tolerate me is an Elim.

Experience is Village
Araris is Village
Archer is Village
Aman is Village

 

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Araris is Village
Archer is Village

Since I've no opinion of Araris yet and I have doubts for V!Archer currently, why these reads?

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

@Kasimir's riot failed, so his vote shouldn't have canceled

Yeah - it looks like we have a Soothe somewhere, or else we'd see multiple interactions that (theoretically) cancelled out. But I'm reluctant to postulate multiple interactions when we don't have to. I wonder if this connects to the Gifted Soothe though.

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

Trying? as if.

We both know what you were really trying to do, so why try to be cute about it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm kind of compelled to let myself die to see if only people with roles flip without alignment. I'd be happy to let Devotary kill me to achieve the same effect, since I'd prefer a more productive exe, but the small number of Regulars is concerning and I really don't understand why myself and TUA exist if more than half the players have roles.

Would prefer if my stronger Village reads don't die, please. Thanks.

@Devotary of Spontaneity If you really need to kill a Village Epic and aren't sure if you hit your quota later on, I volunteer because I'm kind of done with being useless this game lol.

I did not know it was possible to find a format I hate more than conversion games, but I've found one!  

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

Yeah...That's honestly something i was looking at today. Mostly has to do with creating teams that work together-Worldbuilding. I think mat is village personally, so I'm not going to look more into that one, but i suppose if I were to be thorough I'd look at things to see how things would make sense as him being an Elim and supposedly who'd be on his team purely off of reactions to his flip/reactions to the wagon. Then do the same with Karn.

Even when someone is village looking into how things played out and who you think the Elims would be on them if they are. Pretty much standard stuff that you'd see people doing regardless, but this time it's pretty much the only way to solve the game. I figure the PoE will need to be structured differently so that it can allow for E/lo to play out in...idk. A way that works.

So yeah. Pretty much associatives/Worldbuilding. Tried to spell it out more for the newer players so someone lmk if I'm not making sense.

The lack of a NK is somewhat concerning.

You don't have to explore every possibility because that's exhausting, but. You kinda do. but not really.

there being neutrals/people claiming neutral really muddies things though, as you can't confirm that. I'm unironically just ignoring all alignment claims pretty much.

Got it, thanks. I think what's kind of bothering me is - how do you then test or confirm your chain of reasoning? Because obviously if you build your read and stipulate, e.g. you think Mat is Village and work from there, then there comes a point where you have to wonder if there is a premise or an alignment-assignment somewhere that is wrong. But if this is flipless, how do you know you're wrong? How do you test yourself to know if it's correct or you're just tunnelling or whatever?

43 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Are there any Village Epics willing to claim multiple facets to their roles?

I'm willing to, but I'm a one trick boi, alas

I did get a bit confused because my role name seems to be so different from the other Epics that I wondered if something was wrong, but TJ told me it was just filler [Edited to add: Meant flavour] and asked me if getting a similar name was that important to me. At least he didn't swear at me this time!

45 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

edit: some intel from archer would probably clear things up @Archer also never responded to my question last cycle like what was the purpose of saying stuff to Mat from here i thought you got a doc to speak with the dead?

Believe he said last cycle he gets three Y/N questions. Current assumption is he sends them via TJ so there's no doc.

Edited to add 2:

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

I highly recommend engaging dgaf mode. We can still try to figure this puzzle out, but no ML guilt!

Can't experience ML guilt if you don't know whether you MLed!

Spoiler

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Would prefer if my stronger Village reads don't die, please. Thanks.

...

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

@Devotary of Spontaneity If you really need to kill a Village Epic and aren't sure if you hit your quota later on, I volunteer because I'm kind of done with being useless this game lol.

 

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

...

 

?

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

?

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

If you really need to kill a Village Epic and aren't sure if you hit your quota later on, I volunteer because I'm kind of done with being useless this game lol.

How do you think I feel?  At least you got a fancy Riot

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

How do you think I feel?  At least you got a fancy Riot

Fancy Riot doesn't mean drek if you can't aim it right - solving the game via analysis is more valuable; doubly so since we're not getting flips. With the current lack of an NK (again, under the assumption that Devo's kill is separate from the NK), this feels especially true.

As you said, the AG was won by the Village showing up to do analysis, not roles.

I recognise I'm radiating a lot of negativity in the thread right now but I really can't stop being endlessly frustrated at the fact there's no flip because I'm prone to having weird reasoning chains if I don't get any checks at all (see: that long raw analysis essay I pushed out on D2 of the AG before going to sleep and giving up) and the knowledge that this game will refuse to give me any sort of way of correcting bad reasoning is deeply off-putting.

So if Devo needs a wincon kill, and would prefer to kill someone who consents to it, I'm down for it. Especially if we think Karn is E.

[Amanuensis he/him]

10 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Fancy Riot doesn't mean drek if you can't aim it right - solving the game via analysis is more valuable; doubly so since we're not getting flips. With the current lack of an NK (again, under the assumption that Devo's kill is separate from the NK), this feels especially true.

As you said, the AG was won by the Village showing up to do analysis, not roles.

I recognise I'm radiating a lot of negativity in the thread right now but I really can't stop being endlessly frustrated at the fact there's no flip because I'm prone to having weird reasoning chains if I don't get any checks at all (see: that long raw analysis essay I pushed out on D2 of the AG before going to sleep and giving up) and the knowledge that this game will refuse to give me any sort of way of correcting bad reasoning is deeply off-putting.

So if Devo needs a wincon kill, and would prefer to kill someone who consents to it, I'm down for it. Especially if we think Karn is E.

I guess I have more faith in you than I do in myself, and vice versa

It's fair if the game isn't what you signed up for and you want an out. I wouldn't blame you.

But I think you're a more valuable asset to the Village than you give yourself credit for, regardless of your role.

Certainly more than me, at least.

I've been lost since D2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ED1T:

@Kasimir oh right, question. Personally I would consider that Conversion games are exotic. Has TJ clarified that it's a possibility, then?

ED2T:

Also does no one else find it weird that there are so few Regulars??? Even if every person that hasn't claimed is a Regular, that's still a 14:7 ratio.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis