Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Archer he/him]

Looks like y'all had fun without me, huh.  Not quoting because it's too early in the morning for that stuff. Sorry.

-Kas, Dannex, who I see added another n, very fun, has gone the inactive elim route before, but they're probably not the most catchable elim right now if they are evil, so. 

-I believe Devo is a neutral. Personally I wonder if TJ chose neutrals based on who is running the LG, but more importantly, it makes little sense to claim a kill ability if that's the team's only NK. Also I suspect Devo wouldn't have stood out enough to be noticed C1 if they were evil, unless e!Mat is involved. 

-I'll flag though that Devo's role sounds a little too villagery. The possibility of Illwei being a one woman wrecking ball aside, they can safely assume we'll mix at some point, so if they're being straight with us, they basically just need to play as a villager and solve the game as normal. Confused why they're bothering to scan rather than just shoot suspects, given all the Epic claims. Also wonder whether that implies Elims have a Regular who would avoid being targeted. 

-Devo's Arsonist theory makes sense to me, and I'm surprised Ashbringer got to the possibility of an Arsonist Conversion game before they considered Arson Kills. My first game, the last Reckoners game, was arson NK, but i think it was a different GM. 

-Other possibility is the elims may either NK or conceal the alignments of those who die each cycle. Or do both but they lacked the actions for it and wanted to demoralize or hide an elim death. My role implies alignment flips are possible, so if it's not a setting we need to activate, I think we just need to keep our cool. Although it is fun watching Kas reevaluate his life choices. :P. (Personally, I appreciate TJ deadpan trolling bro, turnabout is fair play.)

-Genuinely have no thoughts on Karn. I didn't feel their vote on me was well thought out, but I wasn't going to kill them for it. Didn't know they were married. Claims be wildin. *screams*

-Speaking of bad votes on me, Thaiiiiiiid? What're you dooooooooing???? Consider yourself my default vote if I don't get around to a proper read through today. If you're a Jester or something, congrats, you're succeeding. 

-Tani coped Stick's powers and Armageddon didn't happen. What's up with that? Let me know if you decide to target me. 

-If anyone's bored/reeling from lack of alignment flips, we've probably got enough claims to try doing theoretical distro guesses. Bonus points if you assume PM items are the only way we're getting those. 

-Kas, I just assumed items existed and went to the Regulars, by the way. Seemed fair. 

-Next person who claims neutral is evil. 

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

It's fair if the game isn't what you signed up for and you want an out. I wouldn't blame you.

But I think you're a more valuable asset to the Village than you give yourself credit for, regardless of your role.

Certainly more than me, at least.

I've been lost since D2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll put it this way - I run a lot of AARs after each game I play and look at the mistakes I made, and where I can do better, and then develop strategies to deal with them. If there's one thing I'm very aware of, it's my weaknesses as a player. Knowing this, and knowing that one of the biggest correctives I have to those weaknesses is now apparently missing is not making me a happy player at all.

Anyway, the bottom line is, as you're still in my strongest currently-existing Village reads tier, I'd prefer you not to die just so we can work out what the hell is wrong with this damned game. I've been lost since C2 as well, and getting a flip off Mat was my big hope, but apparently that's just not going to happen now. 

6 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I guess I have more faith in you than I do in myself, and vice versa

Can't deny that seems to be the case.

Interested in whether you consider Devo's claim plausible, because I still think that with the current number of Epics, it's a weird wincon to have and sort of asymmetrical. And I'm definitely wondering at the number of alleged redirects (or re-direct adjacent) powers.

I'm still currently going back to the lack of a NK because with so many redirects flying around C2, you'd expect the kill to bounce too as long as it hit someone in that nexus of connections. So why is there no NK?

TJ's exasperation and insistence this is a standard SE game IMO makes me lean towards the fact there is an Elim team and it's not quite a conversion game. And even in LG73, which could be won through other means than outnumbering, the Elim team didn't forgo a NK. Refusing to NK is a major shift in standard kill doctrine and I can't see what's motivating it.

Options:

• Roleblock - unlikely; Elims have no reason to roleblock themselves, and a Village roleblocker would've claimed by now because if you roleblocked someone and there's no NK, that's a guaranteed Elim lynch.
   
• Actions economy - What could they be doing that's more important than NKing given their wincon? I feel like burning actions to keep alignments concealed from us doesn't make sense because surely there's an entire team's worth of action slots, and it seems unacceptably passive for them to keep obscuring flips without actually taking us out.
   
• No NK/Conversion - The first isn't possible given the ruleset when we signed up. The latter IMO doesn't really gel with TJ insisting this is a standard SE game, just fancier.
   
• Unusual kill doctrine - I could maybe see a Thaid team having an unusual kill doctrine, but key word: team. Who else would be down for it? I can't see E!Araris refusing to kill. 
   
• Simplest answer - Someone didn't put the order in (sort of a Cham incident from AG8 but worse), Mat was using the NK and the lynch came first on OoA, or Devo's kill is actually the NK and Devo is lying. Not sure how to assess this as I'm now genuinely confused on Mat.

I'm not thinking of anything else right now, which I suppose is a major failure of imagination.

Anyway, probably bumping up my Village read of Illwei for that redirect. I'm assuming she did the Bard trick, and that's not something a Elim redirect would do to me - they'd probably do a Rioting-related redirect rather than what I suspect she did.

1 minute ago, Archer said:

I think we just need to keep our cool. Although it is fun watching Kas reevaluate his life choices. :P. (Personally, I appreciate TJ deadpan trolling bro, turnabout is fair play.)

>:(

How are you keeping your cool.

2 minutes ago, Archer said:

-If anyone's bored/reeling from lack of alignment flips, we've probably got enough claims to try doing theoretical distro guesses. Bonus points if you assume PM items are the only way we're getting those. 

Yeah, Aman's started with that list, but I'm already confused by the amount of bouncing that's apparently happening from redirects. It's - odd, I suppose. Along with our two regulars.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

More thoughts may follow, but slightly/very put off by lack of confirmation of alignment. I'm going to try to motivate myself to press on, but in much the same way Kas has described, lack of data points really makes my analysis less effective. 

I think we ought to consider further why TJ isn't giving us flips, and as such is essentially removing the village's ability to analyse - what impediment does the eliminator team face to create an even playing field? The lack of a night kill is one option - a game where they have to win through the lynch, but without the village knowing alignment feels possible to balance, but equally just unsatisfactory to play.

In term of information, I followed @Araris Valerian last night, to test their claim and check that it wasn't a cover for some tie with Kas. I was redirected to Aman, who targeted no one.

I'm yet to read the end of D1 and most of D2 (unashamedly just poorly motivated), but I'm increasingly inclined to vote for Devotary. We have a known night kill, and plenty of claimed village epics. I'm normally a real advocate for compromise with neutrals, but I think Devotary is incentivised to do real damage to the village - the completion of their win condition isn't something we need to allow if it has a material impact on our own.

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I think we ought to consider further why TJ isn't giving us flips, and as such is essentially removing the village's ability to analyse - what impediment does the eliminator team face to create an even playing field? The lack of a night kill is one option - a game where they have to win through the lynch, but without the village knowing alignment feels possible to balance, but equally just unsatisfactory to play.

Sign-up ruleset indicates they do get a NK though.

Quote

• Reckoner Allies: You are the uninformed majority. You win when Corrupted Epics are eliminated.
• Corrupted Epics: You are the informed minority. You have a doc to scheme in and access to one faction kill per cycle. You win when you achieve parity with Reckoner Allies.

h/t @Amanuensis earlier in this thread.

But I agree we have to work out what the balance is, if it's not a lack of a NK.

6 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I think Devotary is incentivised to do real damage to the village

Because she has to kill X Epics, and with at least one Elim and one Village in that number?

6 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

More thoughts may follow, but slightly/very put off by lack of confirmation of alignment. I'm going to try to motivate myself to press on, but in much the same way Kas has described, lack of data points really makes my analysis less effective. 

Thank you.

It feels so good to know I'm not the only person who has had it with the lack of flips.

7 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I'm yet to read the end of D1 and most of D2 (unashamedly just poorly motivated)

Sorry, I understand how it feels now, thanks to AG8 C1-2, and also, just this current situation.

[Archer he/him]

10 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

 How are you keeping your cool.

The secret is not having time to worry.

8 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

In term of information, I followed @Araris Valerian last night, to test their claim and check that it wasn't a cover for some tie with Kas. I was redirected to Aman, who targeted no one.

I'm yet to read the end of D1 and most of D2 (unashamedly just poorly motivated), but I'm increasingly inclined to vote for Devotary. We have a known night kill, and plenty of claimed village epics. I'm normally a real advocate for compromise with neutrals, but I think Devotary is incentivised to do real damage to the village - the completion of their win condition isn't something we need to allow if it has a material impact on our own.

Interesting approach. I can understand wanting to kill them if you suspect they're lying, but I didn't mind the possibility of a few extra kills going around, if only because people having their lies about their roles revealed is probably going to be our most reliable alignment flip. Speaking of which. 

*

 

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood you had a good run. But I scanned you yesterday with my Villager Alignment Scanner item and you tested negative. So are you a neutral or are you an elim? Thaid

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

ED1T:

@Kasimir oh right, question. Personally I would consider that Conversion games are exotic. Has TJ clarified that it's a possibility, then?

ED2T:

Also does no one else find it weird that there are so few Regulars??? Even if every person that hasn't claimed is a Regular, that's still a 14:7 ratio.

TJ has been PAFOing all questions about whether this is a conversion game but he also insists this is a standard SE game. 

And yes, agreed on regular numbers, which is why I was considering asking either Tani or Devo to scan TUA. 

The known power-sets are just weird too. I can't put my finger on why but all the redirects and target/role scanning just seems odd. 

Devo's Arson hypothesis is possible as well and I should add it to the options list but that feels like it sways things even further away from Village because then you also lack NK info on top of the game ending suddenly and that's just kayana. Where's the balance? 

@Archer — Huh. What did Mat say, and who did you scan C1?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kasimir
Formatting

[Quivil she/her]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Sort of like Tyrian - if you see a lot of Thugs/Lurchers, start worrying about E!Coinshot.

Does Araris count as a lurcher? Does Stick count as a thug?

Quote

If it reveals more about them, I'm down for it. If it doesn't, what's the point? Archer called the lack of flips before it played out. That gives him fairly high Epic credence in my book. I'm actually surprised @Tani hasn't tried stealing Archer's powers as that might be useful in terms of giving us info.

Are you volunteering to be experimented on?

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Amanuensis.

I'm kind of compelled to let myself die to see if only people with roles flip without alignment. I'd be happy to let Devotary kill me to achieve the same effect, since I'd prefer a more productive exe, but the small number of Regulars is concerning and I really don't understand why myself and TUA exist if more than half the players have roles.

Otherwise, I'd want to kill Archer today. Their role has never really made sense to me due to the number of claimed limitations. I waited this long to kill him to see if we'd ever get an alignment flip, but alas, my suspicions on that front were correct.

If you want to die, can I experiment on you? Can I Devo you?

I just verbed a name...

Quote

@Tani when you stole Stick's ability D1, did you find out what the ability is? Or do you not know until you use it?

I don't get to know anything except what I can figure out from it's effects.

1 hour ago, Archer said:

-Tani coped Stick's powers and Armageddon didn't happen. What's up with that? Let me know if you decide to target me. 

Are you volunteering to be experimented on?

Quote

-Next person who claims neutral is evil. 

*claims newt*

Edited February 15, 2022 by Tani

[Amanuensis he/him]

11 hours ago, Archer said:

-I'll flag though that Devo's role sounds a little too villagery. The possibility of Illwei being a one woman wrecking ball aside, they can safely assume we'll mix at some point, so if they're being straight with us, they basically just need to play as a villager and solve the game as normal. Confused why they're bothering to scan rather than just shoot suspects, given all the Epic claims. Also wonder whether that implies Elims have a Regular who would avoid being targeted. 

I'm confused by the mention of Illwei in this bullet point. Did you mean Devo? Why did you mix them up?

11 hours ago, Archer said:

-Next person who claims neutral is evil. 

10 hours ago, Archer said:

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood you had a good run. But I scanned you yesterday with my Villager Alignment Scanner item and you tested negative. So are you a neutral or are you an elim? Thaid

Hello tunnel, my old frienddd. I've come to talk with you againnn.

Considering we've been told that players cannot submit more than one action ("under most circumstances") and the fact you haven't mentioned your results from talking with Mat, I take it you didn't. So why bother making a show of @ing him in thread?

10 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Interested in whether you consider Devo's claim plausible, because I still think that with the current number of Epics, it's a weird wincon to have and sort of asymmetrical. And I'm definitely wondering at the number of alleged redirects (or re-direct adjacent) powers.

Honestly, not wholly. But I also have lost any motivation to push her because of two posts she's made that give me big 'I'm angry' vibes, and frankly don't want to be a part of it anymore.

The reason I put my vote on Karn at the end of the D2 chaos was to see if two kills would happen. The fact that a second didn't leads me to believe that it's the same kill and it was her last-ditch effort to stay alive. The alternative is the elims are deliberately neglecting their kill to make us waste time, but that would imply a team with a high risk appetite + D2 EoD presence to witness Devotary's role claim.

TBH I'm kinda done wondering if it's a conversion game at this point. Also not entertaining anything like an arsonist. The game rules clearly state "informed minority" and "one faction kill per cycle" which can still work for a conversion game, but that just points back to Devo. C1 she converts someone. C2 she converts someone else and the first convert submits the kill to verify her claim. But again, the 'I'm angry' vibes = me not wanting to push her anymore if she's honest, and I respect Devo enough to assume she wouldn't do that as an elim just to buy time.

So where's that leave me? Standard game, starting team of Corrupted Epics.

I'm more confident in E!Karn than E!Mat, though both could still work. I have trouble reconciling his info vote on Archer with him being an Epic. Archer claimed a role from the start that offered information and warned us that we'd be denied information from flips. Only an elim would want to deny the village long-term information, though it's possible he just didn't think about the repercussions. I say more confident because there's still a chance he was Village, which I'm willing to believe, but I could see him being E/E with Archer too and using that vote for distancing, as he would be aware of Archer's plan from the get-go.

I really want to hear about @StrikerEZ's win con. If we are going to work with him, we need all his cards on the table. The reason I want to know is because it might help us infer whether or not Devo's being honest about hers.

ED1T:

9 hours ago, Tani said:

If you want to die, can I experiment on you? Can I Devo you?

I just verbed a name...

Honestly, I'd rather you shoot Thaid. Don't think a Thaid exe is a productive use of our time given he's apparently been "Seeked." Whether or not Archer is busing or wasting the Village's time more or honest, it has to be resolved.

ED2T:

Oh, and if there's an elim targeted Janitor esque role that hides alignments, it's 100% STINK. But that's assuming the elims don't have a role that generally hides alignments until their own death. Maybe a team of Karn/Archer/STINK/???. Still want to V lean STINK for his unsolicited Mat ISO, but if there's a Janitor, it's absolutely him based on EoD activity.

ED3T:

Okay so, E!Archer world. He probably doesn't have the generally-hiding-alignments role (Vexcave) if that's what's going on. The fact he referred to himself as an over-glorified vanilla is probably honest. He likely made the reveal so that in the event he was killed, we'd still be lost and the elims lose almost nothing, versus the actual alignment hider outing themself. Still think he needs to die today regardless.

ED4T:

@Archer Benefit of the doubt. I take it you did not start with the one-use-scan item, but received it D2? Meaning someone would have gifted it to you with their D1 action like Araris is suggesting from the one-use-Soother gift?

If so, whoever is gifting items should claim to verify Archer/Araris' honesty.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Stick. she/her]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

The secret is not having time to worry.

Interesting approach. I can understand wanting to kill them if you suspect they're lying, but I didn't mind the possibility of a few extra kills going around, if only because people having their lies about their roles revealed is probably going to be our most reliable alignment flip. Speaking of which. 

*

 

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood you had a good run. But I scanned you yesterday with my Villager Alignment Scanner item and you tested negative. So are you a neutral or are you an elim? Thaid

Interesting - this is why you think PMs are an item thing? Will wait for Thaid's say on this. Also what did Mat say to you if anything at all? You keep dodging this question.

55 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

But again, the 'I'm angry' vibes = me not wanting to push her anymore if she's honest, and I respect Devo enough to assume she wouldn't do that as an elim just to buy time.

Logically e!Devo makes sense, but I kind of got the same vibe...Devo's been evil so many times and I don't remember them getting frustrated like this ever so sigh idk Devo

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Honestly, not wholly. But I also have lost any motivation to push her because of two posts she's made that give me big 'I'm angry' vibes, and frankly don't want to be a part of it anymore.

Fair point, especially with what @_Stick_ mentioned, given the clashes I've had with E!Devo in the past.

1 hour ago, Tani said:

Does Araris count as a lurcher? Does Stick count as a thug?

Do you think Araris can stop a kill? Do you think Stick's power-set counts as a Thug? Do you think two players count as a lot?

1 hour ago, Tani said:

Are you volunteering to be experimented on?

If you inherited Stick's powers, does it mean you'll survive if Devo kills you right now? Do you think it's worth test-driving?

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Still want to V lean STINK for his unsolicited Mat ISO, but if there's a Janitor, it's absolutely him based on EoD activity.

How does that work out? Number of others on at EoD too.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Honestly, I'd rather you shoot Thaid. Don't think a Thaid exe is a productive use of our time given he's apparently been "Seeked." Whether or not Archer is busing or wasting the Village's time more or honest, it has to be resolved.

I'm beginning to understand how Orlok felt, talking to Stick...

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

So where's that leave me? Standard game, starting team of Corrupted Epics.

That's my current state of thought, given TJ's frustration and clarification that there are Corrupted Epics and we have to kill them all to win. Either a Vexcave role upholding a general alignment-obscuring mechanic or a local alignment-concealer seems to be the best bet right now.

Edited to add: @Amanuensis - TJ clarified he considers non-standard games to be something like FFA so he does not intend to rule out conversion games on the basis of his clarification.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

You know what? New theory based on an old theory. @Kasimir

Other than Vexcave, there are no other Corrupted Epics. The rest are either "Minions" as Devotary put it D1 or more likely, non-Epic roles like Mat's - which means yes, we were right about Mat D1.

An elim-team with no other Epic but Vexcave would naturally deduce there are Village Epics (especially because of Mat's role), leading to Archer's claim. They would likewise claim Epics themselves to disguise their own roles flavor pointing to their alignment.

In this scenario, Karn is Village and some people came out of the woodwork to vote for him because Devotary is Vexcave. My natural response to the 'I'm angry' vibes comes from me assuming Devotary wouldn't deliberately weaponize emotion to save herself. But it's possible that she was upset for the same reason I was in AG8 - getting caught for things beyond their control, or more specifically for her, getting PoE exed on D2 - and that it wasn't an intentional thing she wrote into her posts. Just a natural reaction.

The reason I'm considering this is because what's the point of a Village Knighthawk Scientist if there's a ton of Epics, very few Regulars, and a single action per cycle??? The items degrade if not used immediately so any Epic that got an item would need to neglect their own role to actually use it, which seems completely bonkers given the huge amount of info roles we've since learned about.

So what's this mean for the team? Mat, Devo, Archer, Araris, maybe Thaid bus for cred.

Why Araris? I have a lot of trouble understanding why he'd risk getting NK'd himself to effectively protect me. There were a dozen better options to use his role on given my insane amount of activity.

We also know a Soother has been active, and since no one has claimed it yet, they are more likely an elim. So the whole "I got a Soothing item" could easily be proven by the elim Soother.

It also reinforces Archer's alignment-scan-item claim in turn.

Am I heckin crazy? Kas, bro. Please tell me I'm crazy.

ED1T:

This team comp assumes that Mat did indeed put the kill in D1 and got OOA'd by the exe.

ED2T:

Further evidence is lack of flips. If we don't get told colors, then what else would give away people's alignments? How about all Epics being Village and all Non-Epic roles being Elim? This assumes that Vexcave is not a role, however, and just how the game works, until the very end, and Archer's claim about alignments flipping eventually was only to give us hope.

ED3T:

+ Araris mistakenly claiming non-Epic when he should have lied and said Epic from the start.

ED4T:

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

How does that work out? Number of others on at EoD too.

Everyone else at D2 EoD claimed a role and have nearly all verified it. At this point I don't even think it's a Janitor target role anyway. Too much risk given all the chaos. More likely it's a passive thing from a Vexcave role or that it's just never going to change. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Why Araris? I have a lot of trouble understanding why he'd risk getting NK'd himself to effectively protect me. There were a dozen better options to use his role on given my insane amount of activity.

The one thing I can't reconcile with E!Araris is no kill. We know they have a faction kill - we're committed to it. Araris has an aggressive kill doctrine, and likes to put in the kills himself. Even knowing this, I find it hard to believe that Araris would countenance a no kill doctrine for his team unless there's something we're missing. Devo was also Evil in LG73, where they could win if Village defenses (side mechanic) were overrun and even then, her team still kept basic kill doctrine.

It's true that the redirect surrounding Araris makes sense if we assume Araris has been putting in the kills because an action tracker would obviously scan Araris, knowing that he likes to put in the kills where he can, I guess. But the kill doctrine point sticks out to me.

11 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

In this scenario, Karn is Village and some people came out of the woodwork to vote for him because Devotary is Vexcave. My natural response to the 'I'm angry' vibes comes from me assuming Devotary wouldn't deliberately weaponize emotion to save herself. But it's possible that she was upset for the same reason I was in AG8 - getting caught for things beyond their control, or more specifically, getting PoE exed on D2 - and that it wasn't an intentional thing she wrote into her posts. Just a natural reaction.

I had a clash with E!Devo in LG68 where she got caught by a - I think the GMs sending me a bad votescan result, and the version of the rules she looked at didn't have that ability so it appeared to come out of nowhere. I'm going to look it up as a comparison case because I do remember it got a bit heated at one point.

11 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

It also reinforces Archer's alignment-scan-item claim in turn.

There's one possibility I can see but I've been reluctant to mention it for Orlok reasons and I don't know if it's correct, but it would not involve E!Archer.

11 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Am I heckin crazy? Kas, bro. Please tell me I'm crazy.

I...don't know. Minimally, I think it's a line of thought worth exploring at the very least. I've been thinking about whether Devo is lying about being a neutral - I don't necessarily buy what Archer said about it being a bad choice - after all, the same line of reasoning could be used to preclude Elan claiming Coinshot to me when she was Spiked Coinshot. The trade-off you make for surviving is kill restriction. Especially as, if you hypothesise, she's an Elim power role.

But the Epic scan is what draws me short, because - okay, it's not too risky given the current landscape and the fact we have a craptonne of Epics. But that seems at least slightly risky and possible to get wrong. I guess I could see some of the more risk-friendly players in this game doing that.

But then why is Archer making the Thaid push now, and like this?

Edited to add: Also, where does Motivator degradation from from?

Quote

You are the renowned Scientist of the Knighthawk. On the death of an Epic, you can harvest their cell to create a Motivator. You cannot harvest cells of Epics who have died in the previous cycles. You need to give away the Motivator created in the cycle following the death of the Epic. Beyond this cycle, the Motivator’s power decreases exponentially and cannot be used, meaning you cannot stockpile on Motivators. This does not take an action. Motivators are 1-time use items. You cannot give Motivators to the same target in consecutive cycles.

I'm specifically reading this as saying that you must give the Motivator away and cannot stockpile them, rather than that you have to use them in the cycle received. @|TJ| Must Motivators be used immediately once you get them? Is there a time limit on them?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

The one thing I can't reconcile with E!Araris is no kill.

This assumes that Mat put in the D1 kill because his role was useless until an Epic was dead, while Araris used his WiMP role D1 (meaning he couldn't submit the kill).

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

This assumes that Mat put in the D1 kill because his role was useless until an Epic was dead, while Araris used his WiMP role D1 (meaning he couldn't submit the kill).

Why would Araris use WiMP over putting in a kill?

And if there's a standard Elim team, what are they doing if not putting in the kill?

Edited to add: Ah, D1, my bad. But then C2?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Why would Araris use WiMP over putting in a kill?

And if there's a standard Elim team, what are they doing if not putting in the kill?

Because they assumed it would be guaranteed to go through, even if Mat died to the exe? That's not a standard mechanic for any SE game in my memory, and the possibility of it being an OoA error was only brought up C2, yeah?

Also that as you said, Araris is known for putting the kills in himself, which makes him a ripe target for Roleblocks, Lookouts, etc.

And again, because Devo is on the team, her kill on Stick last night would be the elim kill.

[Stick. she/her]

What do you guys mean by Vexcave? 

23 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I'm beginning to understand how Orlok felt, talking to Stick...

What? Not sure I follow...  

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

Because they assumed it would be guaranteed to go through, even if Mat died to the exe? That's not a standard mechanic for any SE game in my memory, and the possibility of it being an OoA error was only brought up C2, yeah?

Also that as you said, Araris is known for putting the kills in himself, which makes him a ripe target for Roleblocks, Lookouts, etc.

And again, because Devo is on the team, her kill on Stick last night would be the elim kill.

TJ was PAFOing all OoA questions so I can buy they made that assumption. And fair - but I assume this means they expected there would be roleblocks and action scanners. I do recall Araris mentioning he has been caught before because of that tendency so that is fair I guess.

I'm going to re-read that LG clash with Devo first.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

TJ was PAFOing all OoA questions so I can buy they made that assumption. And fair - but I assume this means they expected there would be roleblocks and action scanners. I do recall Araris mentioning he has been caught before because of that tendency so that is fair I guess.

I'm going to re-read that LG clash with Devo first.

I'll reread the game where I caught E!Devo too to see.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, _Stick_ said:

What do you guys mean by Vexcave? 

Another player who doesn't read write-ups!  The D1 write-up had a fog creating Epic called Vexcave as the opposition and I was tired and frustrated enough to suggest a crack theory that the fog is a reference to the fact that there's an Epic role which - whether passively or actively - suppresses alignments from detection. I don't think I mean Vexcave is literally in the game (though she could very well be!) But I at least think that there might be a role anchoring this flip-suppression mechanic.

Aman's talk of a Janitor role also makes sense to me - it's just whether the flip-suppressor is local (i.e. you have to keep targeting people who will die) or global (which we can break down further into active or passive.)

Just now, _Stick_ said:

What? Not sure I follow...  

If Aman hasn't figured out what I'm driving at, this would be a red flag the size of Greenland.

[|TJ| he/him]

Okay clarification, y'all. Vexcave takes serious offence. She's incredibly proud of her super-sight ability and if anyone even dare mistake her ability to something as lowly as fogging, she's going to kill them with just her eyes. It's Temperate who creates the fog in the write-up :P. 

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, |TJ| said:

Okay clarification, y'all. Vexcave takes serious offence. She's incredibly proud of her super-sight ability and if anyone even dare mistake her ability to something as lowly as fogging, she's going to kill them with just her eyes. It's Temperate who creates the fog in the write-up :P. 

That's fine, we kill bad Epics  

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

[Amanuensis he/him]

10 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm going to re-read that LG clash with Devo first.

Found some relevant posts. Please give them a look since I think you'll have better judgment atm.

Spoiler

 

Things I noticed:

• Fake role claim that fell apart under closer scrutiny
• Bargaining to be kept alive longer via proving their role

Things I'm not sure I can notice due to current emotional state:

• Devotary's tone

Bonus thing I noticed for irony's sake:

• I suspected Devotary to be a Conversion role (which she was) and I insisted on exeing her to save us future headaches.

 

ED1T:

Honestly hate bringing past games up / player meta up as a reason to vote someone, so that's big part of why I really don't want to make a decision based on this info + upset Devo more. But alls fair in love and war, yeah?

Devo, I hope you don't perceive my "wanting to kill you since D1" as a personal thing. I'm just trying to be the best Villager I can, ya'know 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Araris Valerian he/him]

@Amanuensis, I targeted you in hopes of pulling a conversion onto myself, actually. Or at least of confirming that you hadn’t been deliberately converted.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

@Amanuensis, I targeted you in hopes of pulling a conversion onto myself, actually. Or at least of confirming that you hadn’t been deliberately converted.

I... could honestly buy that kekw. Still want to know where the heck that Soother item came from.

ED1T:

InB4 someone did try to convert me and Araris did get converted >>

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

@Amanuensis, I targeted you in hopes of pulling a conversion onto myself, actually. Or at least of confirming that you hadn’t been deliberately converted.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

6 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

InB4 someone did try to convert me and Araris did get converted >>

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻