Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

What is the vote count guys? I cannot keep track.

Didn't you see my second-to-last post?

The vote count is:

• (17) Archer: Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis, Amanuensis,

Wanna be the 18th?

ED1T:

Whoops didn't mean to double post sorry <3

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[|TJ| he/him]

Ahem, correction - 

It should be this :P.

Thaidakar the Ghostblood (3): Kasimir, Ashbringer, Archer
StrikerEZ (1): Thaidakar the Ghostblood
Ashbringer (1): Illwei
Tani (1): Araris Valerian
Devotary of Spontaneity (1): Orlok Tsubodai
Archer (1): Amanuensis

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Ahem, correction - 

It should be this :P.

Thaidakar the Ghostblood (3): Kasimir, Ashbringer, Archer
StrikerEZ (1): Thaidakar the Ghostblood
Ashbringer (1): Illwei
Tani (1): Araris Valerian
Devotary of Spontaneity (1): Orlok Tsubodai
Archer (1): Amanuensis

My VC is better...

[Araris Valerian he/him]

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

The scanning item is just weird. @Araris Valerian Is your Soothe a power or a one-shot item? 

Neither/both? I'm pretty sure it came from a Gifter Epic, and regardless of whether I use it this turn, I lose access after the cycle.

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Araris Valerian said:

Neither/both? I'm pretty sure it came from a Gifter Epic, and regardless of whether I use it this turn, I lose access after the cycle.

Is it presented as an item? Because if it isn't, if it's just phrased as an ability, then this is incredibly weird because we've not had any sight of items in this game as far as I know, given Mat's death.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Friendly reminder for said Gifter to claim and verify this brand new factor that's making the game even more impossible to decipherrr

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Is it presented as an item? Because if it isn't, if it's just phrased as an ability, then this is incredibly weird because we've not had any sight of items in this game as far as I know, given Mat's death.

It is presented as a gift, not an item. It's definitely not persistent/passable like items typically are.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

It is presented as a gift, not an item. It's definitely not persistent/passable like items typically are.

Hmm.

Alright, thanks Araris.

In your view, and @Amanuensis's - what does E!Archer gain from faking a scan on Thaid?

Something that's throwing me for a loop is: why Thaid? If there's no flip anyway, what's to stop you from going for bigger game? Why not fake one on Illwei or Ash or Orlok or myself? (Probably not Aman - think you're V read enough, either way.) If your fake scan is going to have payoffs either way because people flip black and alignments are suppressed, why go for Thaid and why not aim for players who don't already have a credibility deficit as acute as Thaid's?

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

guys why did everyone start vote training me? Striker Archer. I know I am village so Archer must be lying. Unless someone changed the sensor thingy he has. I don't know if that is possible though.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Hmm.

Alright, thanks Araris.

In your view, and @Amanuensis's - what does E!Archer gain from faking a scan on Thaid?

Something that's throwing me for a loop is: why Thaid? If there's no flip anyway, what's to stop you from going for bigger game? Why not fake one on Illwei or Ash or Orlok or myself? (Probably not Aman - think you're V read enough, either way.) If your fake scan is going to have payoffs either way because people flip black and alignments are suppressed, why go for Thaid and why not aim for players who don't already have a credibility deficit as acute as Thaid's?

Generally, we kill the person Seeked as an Elim before we kill the Seeker themselves, right? So at the very least it buys him a cycle + distracts us from learning his role claim was always crem.

The fact we don't get alignment flips is another obfuscating factor. Like you said, how could we even verify Thaid's an elim after the fact?

In the event we did eventually find out that Thaid is an elim, it can be argued in E!Archer's favor. Could also be argued for as a bus, but presumably, they'd be banking on the first.

ED1T:

And yeah, tbh legitimately scanning Thaid makes very little sense if Archer is Village. Literally any other player's scan would be more useful imo. It would have to be a Illwei/Meerkat fakeout.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Hmm.

Alright, thanks Araris.

In your view, and @Amanuensis's - what does E!Archer gain from faking a scan on Thaid?

Something that's throwing me for a loop is: why Thaid? If there's no flip anyway, what's to stop you from going for bigger game? Why not fake one on Illwei or Ash or Orlok or myself? (Probably not Aman - think you're V read enough, either way.) If your fake scan is going to have payoffs either way because people flip black and alignments are suppressed, why go for Thaid and why not aim for players who don't already have a credibility deficit as acute as Thaid's?

I do not know why E!Archer would want to fake a scan on me, unless he thinks my village epic powers are threatening him. but if he is a V which I find doubtful than someone is sabotaging him.

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

Generally, we kill the person Seeked as an Elim before we kill the Seeker themselves, right? So at the very least it buys him a cycle + distracts us from learning his role claim was always crem.

The fact we don't get alignment flips is another obfuscating factor. Like you said, how could we even verify Thaid's an elim after the fact?

In the event we did eventually find out that Thaid is an elim, it can be argued in E!Archer's favor. Could also be argued for as a bus, but presumably, they'd be banking on the first.

How can you verify I am an Elim? well, lets see, Archer says that he got a non village read from which I find interesting. unlesss. wait. what if V!archer faked the test and actually does not have that power, what if he wants me gone because he thinks my powers could just be threatening. this is a weird theory, I do a lot of crackpot theories so this may not actually work.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Generally, we kill the person Seeked as an Elim before we kill the Seeker themselves, right? So at the very least it buys him a cycle + distracts us from learning his role claim was always crem.

The fact we don't get alignment flips is another obfuscating factor. Like you said, how could we even verify Thaid's an elim after the fact?

In the event we did eventually find out that Thaid is an elim, it can be argued in E!Archer's favor. Could also be argued for as a bus, but presumably, they'd be banking on the first.

So you're currently thinking Thaid/Archer E/E?

Because again - then why not you? Sure, you're hard to fight in the thread, but E!Archer takes out a Village threat that way and doesn't even have to worry because we can't verify your alignment anyway. (I grant you might be hard, but I maintain for instance that I'm inherently MLable, and Orlok's questions to me shows exactly why - did not have a good C1 and I think at the very least I would be a more preferable target to Thaid!)

Something that popped to mind in terms of why I kept thinking Mat and Araris E/E is unlikely - Araris typically advises against going all out to defend yourself, especially on D1. Stick out too much and you get shot. It's possible Mat just did it, and his about face later on was getting advice to cool it in the doc, but I still think that's weird, especially if they're doc mates. And to anyone else reading this - no, I'm still not sure about Mat so I keep thinking about both V and E Mat.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

So you're currently thinking Thaid/Archer E/E?

Because again - then why not you? Sure, you're hard to fight in the thread, but E!Archer takes out a Village threat that way and doesn't even have to worry because we can't verify your alignment anyway. (I grant you might be hard, but I maintain for instance that I'm inherently MLable, and Orlok's questions to me shows exactly why - did not have a good C1 and I think at the very least I would be a more preferable target to Thaid!)

Something that popped to mind in terms of why I kept thinking Mat and Araris E/E is unlikely - Araris typically advises against going all out to defend yourself, especially on D1. Stick out too much and you get shot. It's possible Mat just did it, and his about face later on was getting advice to cool it in the doc, but I still think that's weird, especially if they're doc mates. And to anyone else reading this - no, I'm still not sure about Mat so I keep thinking about both V and E Mat.

Could be E!Archer and V!Thaid too. The biggest benefit would be him not dying today.

ED1T:

Could also be that he never planned on sticking with the scan story, and he just posted that to distract / confuse us more.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

Could be E!Archer and V!Thaid too. The biggest benefit would be him not dying today. 

true, that makes sense. E!Archer would want more time on the table so he would fake a read on me. this is getting more interesting. the title of this cycle is getting more acurate by each post.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Could be E!Archer and V!Thaid too. The biggest benefit would be him not dying today. 

Feels like he's not under threat though. You're the only one voting for him, and Thaid keeps hopping trains.

As the resident seven year Village boi, it's not my place to speak of Elim doctrine, but I feel you probably need a good gauge of the heat you're attracting, and Archer wasn't attracting significant flak that actually manifested in votes, so why does E!Archer feel compelled to do a fake scan now, and in this manner?

Like - if the biggest benefit was not dying today (on the assumption he was in fact in danger), why not just pick anyone else? Literally anyone else would be a better target and as you correctly point out, standard Seek doctrine is to lynch the target, then the Seeker. If anyone fell back to standard Seek doctrine, the target'd be dead. I'd be dead. And then someone points out the flip deal but it's too late by then, and all E!Archer has to do is to pick a plausible target.

Agreed with you that if V!Archer, he'd have to be pulling an Illwei/Meerkat.

I'm open to being convinced and I agree with you that there's a lot of question marks surrounding Archer's role - it's just that the nature of the fake scan doesn't seem to make sense to me for E!Archer. It's weird timing and weird victimology, made worse by the fact he sharply undercuts himself shortly after posting and implying he was keeping an open mind about Thaid by suddenly saying he scanned Thaid as non-Village.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Does @Archer know that his scan actually hit Thaidakar, or could it have been redirected somewhere? Given my ability and Striker's, there seem to be at least a few things that could have gone wrong here.

[Experience he/him]

1 minute ago, Araris Valerian said:

Does @Archer know that his scan actually hit Thaidakar, or could it have been redirected somewhere? Given my ability and Striker's, there seem to be at least a few things that could have gone wrong here.

This feels like e!Araris giving a way out for e!Archer...

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Just now, Experience said:

This feels like e!Araris giving a way out for e!Archer...

This feels like e!Experience trying to shut down v!Araris's attempt to understand what the sparks is going on here...

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

This team comp assumes that Mat did indeed put the kill in D1 and got OOA'd by the exe.

ED2T:

Further evidence is lack of flips. If we don't get told colors, then what else would give away people's alignments? How about all Epics being Village and all Non-Epic roles being Elim? This assumes that Vexcave is not a role, however, and just how the game works, until the very end, and Archer's claim about alignments flipping eventually was only to give us hope.

I do feel like the elim team would have asked about the OoA if they were going to have e!Mat submit the kill, and would have had someone else do it to be safe if it got PAFO'd. And also that TJ having the exe roleblock kills and refusing to tell the elims about it is cruel.

Exactly one elim Epic would give me an instant lose condition that I'm not a fan of, but I guess in this distribution I'm just evil.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Found some relevant posts. Please give them a look since I think you'll have better judgment atm.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Things I noticed:

• Fake role claim that fell apart under closer scrutiny
• Bargaining to be kept alive longer via proving their role

If it was like that game, then Ash would be asking about my role name because he's planning to say that actually, Devotary's lying, I have the Epic Hunter role, here's it's real name, powers, and win con. This time, dying like that would be funny.

2 hours ago, Tani said:

Done.

Technically it's Devo's kill.

And I can't choose what action I copy.

And I can't steal the faction kill.

Can you only steal Epic powers, not abilites like mine or Mat's?

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

You beat Alv, pretty sure you're the current record holder.

I just want to set the Village record streak and dethrone Striker/Fifth/TJ before I have to face my demons and the trauma of uniformly bad Elim team experiences (minus MR3 with Wyrm.) Sometimes a guy gotta aim high.

Turns out Fifth's at 17-18, TJ at 20, so Striker's probably the one with 21.

Edited to add: Turns out Striker has 12, so I just need to dethrone TJ and then I probably have the record.

And in the game where you would tie him, TJ decides whether to break your streak.

25 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I saw that, but that's not the same as talking to Mat, is it? Or maybe we're crossing wires - I do think he did establish contact, but I also suspect that the thread thing indicates he's not allowed to directly talk to Mat. Because if he were, why post all these instructions in the thread? In the dead/limbo doc would do nicely.

I don't think he directly talked to Mat, I just think it would be very strange if he said this and then switched his action such that Mat never got any questions at all.

29 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I think my biggest hang up with his role is, well, why does it exist at all?

If the answers have to be honest, and that's meant to be our way of finding out which of the dead are Villagers and which are Elims, where is the redundancy? Why is there no one else with this weirdly specific yet critical role? What happens if he got NK'd D1 and the Village lost it's only effective alignment scanner? Why not just have a reveal-dead-alignment role?

If the answers can include lies, what's the point at all? Elims are going to lie when they die just as they'd lie while they're alive.

I just don't get it.

That's where the idea of the role piece that he's revealed to us being passive with the distinct possibility that he could do something else as an action(obscure, revive, etc.) comes in. If there was a requirement for answers to be honest I'd have expected that to be included in the role description.

Thaidakar claimed immunity to Epic powers I believe but I can't imagine that would stop an elim kill so it's not that E!Archer thinks this is the only way to kill v!Thaidakar.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Feels like he's not under threat though. You're the only one voting for him, and Thaid keeps hopping trains.

As the resident seven year Village boi, it's not my place to speak of Elim doctrine, but I feel you probably need a good gauge of the heat you're attracting, and Archer wasn't attracting significant flak that actually manifested in votes, so why does E!Archer feel compelled to do a fake scan now, and in this manner?

Like - if the biggest benefit was not dying today (on the assumption he was in fact in danger), why not just pick anyone else? Literally anyone else would be a better target and as you correctly point out, standard Seek doctrine is to lynch the target, then the Seeker. If anyone fell back to standard Seek doctrine, the target'd be dead. I'd be dead. And then someone points out the flip deal but it's too late by then, and all E!Archer has to do is to pick a plausible target.

Agreed with you that if V!Archer, he'd have to be pulling an Illwei/Meerkat.

I'm open to being convinced and I agree with you that there's a lot of question marks surrounding Archer's role - it's just that the nature of the fake scan doesn't seem to make sense to me for E!Archer. It's weird timing and weird victimology, made worse by the fact he sharply undercuts himself shortly after posting and implying he was keeping an open mind about Thaid by suddenly saying he scanned Thaid as non-Village.

Look at how C1 ended up and C2  I've been the main driving force of every exe so far, for good or for bad, and I've been questioning his role since early C2. I have @'d Archer multiple times with questions about his role since he @'d Mat, even @'d him in the post where I asked him if he was a Reviver or had an ability that could interact with the dead, and he's responded to literally none of them. He's still not told us the results he learned from his Mat action, and I'm not the only person that's been asking for the results.

I don't know Archer at all really, but I do know that he's smart, and I'm sure he's on a team with someone who knows me well enough to know how relentless I am too. He might not have attracted much flak before, but I'm sure his team would have seen my push for him coming. Especially if he failed to deliver.

Frankly, I don't even care about the Thaid scan nonsense. It's not a basis for my reason for wanting him dead. It's just another thing we have to deal with.

My case boils down to this, and nothing more.

We are completely and utterly lost without alignment flips. Archer is the ONLY player that claims to have a role that interacts with players that have no alignments, and NO ONE else can verify whether or not he's honest about anything until we see if his role as fact. If literally any other player was claiming the same thing, I'd vote them for the same reason to. We need to know.

 

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

3 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I do feel like the elim team would have asked about the OoA if they were going to have e!Mat submit the kill, and would have had someone else do it to be safe if it got PAFO'd. And also that TJ having the exe roleblock kills and refusing to tell the elims about it is cruel.

Exactly one elim Epic would give me an instant lose condition that I'm not a fan of, but I guess in this distribution I'm just evil.

If it was like that game, then Ash would be asking about my role name because he's planning to say that actually, Devotary's lying, I have the Epic Hunter role, here's it's real name, powers, and win con. This time, dying like that would be funny.

Can you only steal Epic powers, not abilites like mine or Mat's?

And in the game where you would tie him, TJ decides whether to break your streak.

I don't think he directly talked to Mat, I just think it would be very strange if he said this and then switched his action such that Mat never got any questions at all.

That's where the idea of the role piece that he's revealed to us being passive with the distinct possibility that he could do something else as an action(obscure, revive, etc.) comes in. If there was a requirement for answers to be honest I'd have expected that to be included in the role description.

Thaidakar claimed immunity to Epic powers I believe but I can't imagine that would stop an elim kill so it's not that E!Archer thinks this is the only way to kill v!Thaidakar.

well, er, that is not my power. I happen to have a different power that I have not used yet and do not intend to actually use for a while, don't worry it won't actually affect any of y'all only elims, so if you are a village you are fine.

[danex he/him]

11 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

So far we have 13 role claims (including the dead) and 2 Regular claims out of 21 players. At this point, I think role safety has completely gone out the window, and with no alignment flips we desperately need info. How many of you are Regulars like TUA and I?

I am not a vanilla.

also how the heck are we supposed to solve this game with no alignment info
TJ what was the plan here
its like every single cycle is D1

[Kasimir he/him]

gdi

@Orlok Tsubodai Bro, I think we need your thoughts in the here and now >> 

1 minute ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

And in the game where you would tie him, TJ decides whether to break your streak.

What makes you think I didn't just add this game to my streak without caring?  Maybe it's Striker and Experience who decide whether to break my streak.

2 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Thaidakar claimed immunity to Epic powers I believe but I can't imagine that would stop an elim kill so it's not that E!Archer thinks this is the only way to kill v!Thaidakar.

Yeah, and for the hundredth time - why go to all that effort to kill V!Thaid? Is Thaid a Seeker or something? Because I legit cannot understand why you wouldn't do it to any other MLable player this game in preference to Thaid. Thaid has thread presence but no credibility. Surely you want to get more bang for your buck if you were already doing this.

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, er, that is not my power. I happen to have a different power that I have not used yet and do not intend to actually use for a while, don't worry it won't actually affect any of y'all only elims, so if you are a village you are fine.

Was I prescient :eyes:

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

We are completely and utterly lost without alignment flips. Archer is the ONLY player that claims to have a role that interacts with players that have no alignments, and NO ONE else can verify whether or not he's honest about anything until we see if his role as fact. If literally any other player was claiming the same thing, I'd vote them for the same reason to. We need to know.

Okay, this I do agree with - that it's deeply odd we have exactly one role that interacts with the lack of flips, though I'm more convinced by the point it's either a compensatory alignment scan (in which case, where's the redundancy? And it doesn't make sense) or the dead can lie, in which case I'm wondering what it's meant to do.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Dannnex said:

also how the heck are we supposed to solve this game with no alignment info

Welcome to the insanity

ED1T:

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Okay, this I do agree with - that it's deeply odd we have exactly one role that interacts with the lack of flips, though I'm more convinced by the point it's either a compensatory alignment scan (in which case, where's the redundancy? And it doesn't make sense) or the dead can lie, in which case I'm wondering what it's meant to do.

Honestly, I don't even want to waste any more time thinking about what it's meant to do. All of it is based on what Archer has told us, and he's not been very forthcoming with the information.

I want to just see his role in tomorrow's write-up, know with absolute certainty that the role he claims is true or not, and move on with our lives.

The game cannot be solved until we all have 100% verified proof that alignment flips can be turned on. Until then we're wasting time going down a million rabbit holes trying to figure out what the heck this game is.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1 minute ago, Dannnex said:

its like every single cycle is D1

TJ was so disappointed with how lots of players don't vote D1 that he decided to give y'all lots of practice at it.