Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[---]

4 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Enough to gladly accept a Pinch-Hitter, if anyone is available.

It's been fun <3

no

this is not an invitation to leave

forget I said anything

Edited February 15, 2022 by Illwei

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Aman

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Aman you said you wanted to die, so here's a vote.

If people wanna vote me they can do that too, I'm done trying.

I didn't redirect anyone on C1

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

no

this is not an invitation to leave

Illwei gives me more mixed signals than T-Mobile.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[---]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Illwei gives me more mixed signals T-Mobile.

you should be saying AT&T smh

[Elandera she/her]

Hello everyone, just popping in to remind people that if you need to take a break, please do. Step back and breathe for a minute, as this is a game. I understand some elements may be extra frustrating, but we're still only in cycle three. Things can change. The ending is not set. We're not in the Infinity War facing only one outcome of 14 million in which you win.

I will also add that, as a player who often cannot keep up with big threads, I don't consider it the responsibility of other players to temper their post count just because I can't keep up. This is especially the case considering my work schedule means I'm awake while most people (Kas and Aman being the exceptions in this case) are asleep. Understand not everyone is in the same time zone or operates within the same hours. For some players, the only time they can talk is while everyone else is sleeping. This sort of situation is what players outside US time zones often find daily, in every single game. The problem, as has been pointed out, is aggravated by a lack of PMs.

That being said, if you do find yourself in quick back-and-forths with other players, please keep it game-relevant. A little outside chat is fine, but each post should have some relevance to the game so that those waking up to find a few pages to read won't have to slog through a dozen or more posts that don't have any bearing on the game.

Also, please don't feel bad for contributing. That is, after all, what this game is about. Remember all those times where games have had low activity and getting reads or information on anyone was worse than trying to get the Infinity Gauntlet away from Thanos. Too much activity (especially when it's active discussion about the game) is better than nothing, as it gives you something to analyze.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Elandera

[Archer he/him]

Skmurph lay on an iceburg, arm lazily dangled in the water. Small fish flitted by between his claws, but he let them pass. He was after bigger-

“RAWWRUhuh?” He pulled in what he’d thought was a penguin, but it was larger. Clammier. Dead?

No, the Knighthawk Scientist he’d hooked had the faintest of heartbeat. Shame Skmurph’s claws had just punctured his lungs.

He watched with interest as the man’s form began to faintly shimmer. He wished others were able to understand the phenomenon, but the polar bear knew only he could see when souls left a body. It made life as a carnivore difficult.

He called out to it. “SKKruuuugh?” That meant: do you now have more information about the rules [of life] than when you died?

There was no response. He took that as a no.

“Grrruup.” Would someone in your position normally be able to communicate with other people, alive or dead?

“No,” it finally whispered.

“Igsgsgsrump.” Is your name Frank?

The spirit began to fade. “No.”

He solemnly lowered the now limp body back into the water. Human meat tasted terrible when wet.

*

Well that escalated quickly! I have some clarifications to issue:

-The scan on Thaid was fake. I have no items or special knowledge of their alignment. It was a conversation starter to see if e!Thaid would claim to be neutral (that was tainted by the thread calling it out before he got on) and so thread analysis people could repeat the type of analysis done after the Meerkat Gambit (Stick waffled the most (bad), Aman committed to a read (good), and Ashbringer I won’t evaluate because he was on the AG elim team and should know how to respond).

-I don’t actually get email notifications for pings, so I apologize for the ones I’ve missed. Some I’ve been ignoring though, to avoid giving away too much about my role and to give me time to get on desktop and RP. I am an Epic with funeral flavored powers, but I’ve ignored that and made it a polar bear. If someone dies and their alignment is not revealed, I may submit up to three yes or no questions to TJ during the following cycle. I can’t change the questions once they’ve been submitted. This isn’t an action. My recipient has until the end of the cycle to answer yes, no, or nothing. Their responses are given to me during the next rollover. My guess is TJ holds off on sending people the link to the dead doc until after the cycle is over, so I appreciate people checking in the cycle after they’re killed.

There’s an additional ability available to me that does take an action, but I’m not going to discuss it. Not sorry. :P. I have yet to submit any actions. (Questions don't count, based on my understanding of the role.)

-I feel like Aman has been opportunistic in response to my gambit. It feels like they’ve leaning into frustration about the lack of information and using it to push a (bad) infoexe. Killing me isn’t going to help reveal anything, as far as I know.

-I know there’s stuff I’ve missed, but I’m typing this in class and want to get it in before I go back and try and respond to pings and quotes later. I made mental notes as I skimmed through and then... forgot them. I am sorry about that. 

EDIT: Just remembered. I did mean Illwei is a one women wrecking ball. She had referenced the recent game where she crushed it as a villager with the analysis, and I was talking about that. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Archer

[---]

1 minute ago, Archer said:

-I feel like Aman has been opportunistic in response to my gambit. It feels like they’ve leaning into frustration about the lack of information and using it to push a (bad) infoexe. Killing me isn’t going to help reveal anything, as far as I know.

Interesting how you're jumping on. Are there any other votes on Aman right now?

Archer, were you the one who said you could talk to the dead?

I apologize again if my tone is coming off mad or whatnot. I'm not. I'm just tired.

[Stick. she/her]

Spoiler

I JUST TYPED UP A POST AFTER STRUGGLING SO MUCH W QUOTE BIXES ON MOBILE AND WHEN I HIT SUBMIT REPLY EVEYRHTING DISAPPEARED AND JT TOLD ME “this field is required :>” WHAT FIELD OMG

Hi guys 

I’ll try again xD

[Archer he/him]

7 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Interesting how you're jumping on. Are there any other votes on Aman right now?

Archer, were you the one who said you could talk to the dead?

I apologize again if my tone is coming off mad or whatnot. I'm not. I'm just tired.

I think yours is. :P. I'll be honest, I'd hoped to get Thaid to jump, but I'll take the scummy read I got on Aman after all this. 

I'm the one who said that yes. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

So you're telling me your death isn't the best course for the Village after 3 cycles with no flips, Archer? Like, if the roles were reversed and I was the supposed Medium claiming all these things and you were, well, literally any other role in the game that had no intrinsic knowledge of the lack of flip, you wouldn't be gunning for me to?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

… bruh. You guys love talking when I’m not, it seems 

Thaid Archer

Guess who has no time again! But fake alignment scans are a no-no. So is fogging things up. I do note Aman, but maybe for different reasons.

@Tani - when you steal a power, does that stop the Epic from using it themselves? Also, do you know who you’d end up targeting on a scan like Orlok’s?

@Illwei, maybe I missed it but any role update? Same for a few others and@Thaidakar the Ghostblood

Edited February 15, 2022 by Ashbringer
Bold

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

11 minutes ago, Archer said:

-I don’t actually get email notifications for pings, so I apologize for the ones I’ve missed. Some I’ve been ignoring though, to avoid giving away too much about my role and to give me time to get on desktop and RP. I am an Epic with funeral flavored powers, but I’ve ignored that and made it a polar bear. If someone dies and their alignment is not revealed, I may submit up to three yes or no questions to TJ during the following cycle. I can’t change the questions once they’ve been submitted. This isn’t an action. My recipient has until the end of the cycle to answer yes, no, or nothing. Their responses are given to me during the next rollover. My guess is TJ holds off on sending people the link to the dead doc until after the cycle is over, so I appreciate people checking in the cycle after they’re killed.

There’s an additional ability available to me that does take an action, but I’m not going to discuss it. Not sorry. :P. I have yet to submit any actions. (Questions don't count, based on my understanding of the role.)

-I feel like Aman has been opportunistic in response to my gambit. It feels like they’ve leaning into frustration about the lack of information and using it to push a (bad) infoexe. Killing me isn’t going to help reveal anything, as far as I know.

-I know there’s stuff I’ve missed, but I’m typing this in class and want to get it in before I go back and try and respond to pings and quotes later. I made emntal notes as I skimmed through and then... forgot them. I am sorry about that. 

For now, Devotary, Archer.

Presently, there appear to be very few roles in the game that aren't mechanically straightforward. Ignoring, for now, Striker and Devotary, we have your role, Stick (who claims to passively survive a lynch and to do something else), and now Thaidakar. Given the absence of information we face, and the potential that in a game that might change state, why are you seeking to keep information about a non-standard role from the village?

Beyond this, I struggle to see the value in claiming you have an ability without explaining it. Is there any potential that its use might change whether alignments are revealed?

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Archer said:

Aman committed to a read (good), and Ashbringer I won’t evaluate because he was on the AG elim team and should know how to respond).

9 hours ago, Archer said:

Killing me isn’t going to help reveal anything, as far as I know.

Quote

You are the renowned Scientist of the Knighthawk. On the death of an Epic, you can harvest their cell to create a Motivator. You cannot harvest cells of Epics who have died in the previous cycles. You need to give away the Motivator created in the cycle following the death of the Epic. Beyond this cycle, the Motivator’s power decreases exponentially and cannot be used, meaning you cannot stockpile on Motivators. This does not take an action. Motivators are 1-time use items. You cannot give Motivators to the same target in consecutive cycles.

Quote

You are an Epic called Pendulum! Just as used by a hypnotist, you can control the mind of your target to shift their vote onto another player. Your own vote is cancelled as you are too busy with the hypnotism. 

???

[---]

So then. Archer, What were the questions you asked and what were the answers you got back.

[Stick. she/her]

On 14/02/2022 at 10:57 PM, Tani said:

I used Stick's ability D1

 

1 hour ago, Tani said:

I steal Elim powers.

??? Tani This doesnt check out

23 minutes ago, Archer said:

Aman committed to a read (good),

 

24 minutes ago, Archer said:

-I feel like Aman has been opportunistic in response to my gambit.

Also doesnt check out??

Fine with an Archer lynch - dont think it needs my vote rn but I can change later if need be

Had more to say,,,agree with whoever said this is like an endless D1

 

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Archer said:

If someone dies and their alignment is not revealed, I may submit up to three yes or no questions to TJ during the following cycle.

Operative: "if" their alignment is not revealed.

Write-Ups: Hello roles no alignment.

Ability: Ask the dead 3 questions.

Catch: PAFO if they can lie or not.

Purpose: ???

[---]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

Operative: "if" their alignment is not revealed.

Write-Ups: Hello roles no alignment.

Ability: Ask the dead 3 questions.

Catch: PAFO if they can lie or not.

Purpose: ???

Suppose there is someone with a role that reveals alignments or roles? Again, my role PM implies that my alignment will be there upon a flip.

EDIT: @Devotary of Spontaneity if your wincon really needs Epics dead, then you have my invitation to shoot me.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Illwei

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Suppose there is someone with a role that reveals alignments or roles? Again, my role PM implies that my alignment will be there upon a flip.

I may have misunderstood your initial claim of that as saying your role PM had a color, not that your role guarantees an alignment flip. Is that what you're saying?

ED1T: Oh hi Ash xD

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Suppose there is someone with a role that reveals alignments or roles? Again, my role PM implies that my alignment will be there upon a flip.

Answering this might be hedging the GM PM rules a bit too much, but are you saying this because you have an alignment or some other reason?

Maybe ask Elan, idk.

Edit: Oh hi Aman xD

Edited February 15, 2022 by Ashbringer

[Elandera she/her]

15 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Suppose there is someone with a role that reveals alignments or roles? Again, my role PM implies that my alignment will be there upon a flip.

11 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Answering this might be hedging the GM PM rules a bit too much, but are you saying this because you have an alignment or some other reason?

Maybe ask Elan, idk.

This is not skirting (nor breaking) the rules. Every player has an alignment (it would be weird if there was a non-alignment alignment...), and as TJ as pointed out a few times, a claim is a claim is a claim, and it's not using wording from the PM.

[---]

Okay why are you guys implying that you guys don't have alignments in your GMPM......

but no, something else implies I would flip with an alignment.

Also Archer is village. Archer can't die this cycle. Not only does his role not make any sense as an Elim, but it is reinforced by the little things he says. Not elaborating on his role when given the opening, instead just going "yes that's my role." Also the lack of presence. Archer would be much more involved if he was an Elim imo. The lack of flips so far implies to me that the Elims can be more free. They can get away with pushing whoever they really like, and we haven't seen that from Archer when I find that to be something that would be relatively normal for him.

Unironically the only way I see Aman being an Elim right now is if Kas is also one as well.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I'm not really interested in debating it tbh, so I'm just gonna say my piece, go cook a quick dinner, and get ready for bed.

Could Archer be Village and be honest about his role? I really, severely doubt it. On D1 he called his role an "overglorified vanilla" and I find that telling considering the details he's revealing now. I'm sure he'll say something like "Well, I had to keep the important part of my role a secret so the elims wouldn't kill me. Make it look weaker, y'know?" I do know. And I have considered it. And I don't even think I care.

No single role is so important that we lose if they die. Period. Especially not in a game where the Village has no idea who we are supposed to be voting because we're getting zero alignment flips from the exe. Archer's role is completely alone in apparently interacting with this mechanic after 14/21 total role claims (not counting the 2 Regulars, leaving 5 unclaimed), the only proof of his role we can get is from his word alone, and the one thing that has been proven to always appear in write-ups is Roles.

If Archer is Village, he should be voting himself today. Plain and simple. He should be able to understand how completely bonkers his role is for anyone to trust, whether or not he is honest, because it's completely unverifiable.

There are no alignment scanners, no role scanners, and the exe is only giving us half of the information. So if Archer's role provides concrete information on why we aren't getting the other half that's missing - the MOST important half - rather than just word of mouth, then it's straight up the only real shot we have at solving this game.

Once the Village has that role in the write-up, we can actually hone in on what the heck is going on in this game.

Without it, what the heck are we supposed to do? Cannibalize each other and never know who is who?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what the elims want too.

Archer.

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

Okay why are you guys implying that you guys don't have alignments in your GMPM......

but no, something else implies I would flip with an alignment.

Also Archer is village. Archer can't die this cycle. Not only does his role not make any sense as an Elim, but it is reinforced by the little things he says. Not elaborating on his role when given the opening, instead just going "yes that's my role." Also the lack of presence. Archer would be much more involved if he was an Elim imo. The lack of flips so far implies to me that the Elims can be more free. They can get away with pushing whoever they really like, and we haven't seen that from Archer when I find that to be something that would be relatively normal for him.

Unironically the only way I see Aman being an Elim right now is if Kas is also one as well.

Everyone has a color in our GM PM, yes. The problem is when people die, that color isn't being revealed to the public.

How do you know he's not lying? What has he done or can he do in the future that proves his role at all?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Archer he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

… bruh. You guys love talking when I’m not, it seems 

Thaid Archer

Guess who has no time again! But fake alignment scans are a no-no. So is fogging things up. I do note Aman, but maybe for different reasons.

@Tani - when you steal a power, does that stop the Epic from using it themselves? Also, do you know who you’d end up targeting on a scan like Orlok’s?

@Illwei, maybe I missed it but any role update? Same for a few others and@Thaidakar the Ghostblood

Why not, they worked for Meerkat. And it froze the elim team (aka me) in a previous game when Illwei did it because they (I) didn't want to jump on a bad wagon then have to retract. Only problem then was Illwei forgot to retract it, whereas I did in a timely fashion. Not my fault y'all decide to write two pages about it in that time. :P. 

32 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

For now, Devotary, Archer.

Presently, there appear to be very few roles in the game that aren't mechanically straightforward. Ignoring, for now, Striker and Devotary, we have your role, Stick (who claims to passively survive a lynch and to do something else), and now Thaidakar. Given the absence of information we face, and the potential that in a game that might change state, why are you seeking to keep information about a non-standard role from the village?

Beyond this, I struggle to see the value in claiming you have an ability without explaining it. Is there any potential that its use might change whether alignments are revealed?

Again, me giving more details won't help us make better decisions. I'm sure some of the interest is villager driven, but it looks to me like the elims want to know too so. Guess they'll have to kill me and find out if they really wanna know. 

27 minutes ago, Illwei said:

So then. Archer, What were the questions you asked and what were the answers you got back.

They were in my polar bear RP. I thought Mat got chucked in the river, didn't TJ say that to someone? Anyway, they were clarification questions about what Mat knows about my role, and nothing stood out. 

24 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Operative: "if" their alignment is not revealed.

Write-Ups: Hello roles no alignment.

Ability: Ask the dead 3 questions.

Catch: PAFO if they can lie or not.

Purpose: ???

Good question! I don't know! 

5 minutes ago, Illwei said:

 Archer would be much more involved if he was an Elim imo. 

Thanks for the village read. :D. But I am genuinely busy with school, so please don't use that for your reads in this game or the LG. 

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

Of relevance:

Quote

The side of this job no one talks is about is immediately after you vote someone off, you then have to go say heyy, would you mind answering some questions now? If you're village, @Matrim's Dice if you're allowed to selectively provide no response, could you please give no answer to the first question you would otherwise answer no to? And please answer yes to question three if you're capable of lying. 

 

1 hour ago, Archer said:

He called out to it. “SKKruuuugh?” That meant: do you now have more information about the rules [of life] than when you died?

There was no response. He took that as a no.

“Grrruup.” Would someone in your position normally be able to communicate with other people, alive or dead?

“No,” it finally whispered.

“Igsgsgsrump.” Is your name Frank?

The spirit began to fade. “No.”

He solemnly lowered the now limp body back into the water. Human meat tasted terrible when wet.

From this, Archer is claiming that Matrim claims the following:

1a) Matrim know no more about the rules than during life
1b) Matrim is a villager

2) Archer is the only way in which the dead can communicate

3) The dead are unable to lie in their responses to Archer.

How we interpret this depends on both Archer and Matrim's alignments - I am taking it as given that neither Matrim nor Archer would lie as a villager.

Permutation 1 - Archer and Matrim are villagers:

Conclusion: Archer can give us alignment information on dead players, and if they cannot lie, could ask two questions about potential teammates (e.g. is there an eliminator amongst xyz) alongside their alignment.

I do not think this permutation is remotely likely - beyond the already raised points about the village being too dependent on one player, I think that forced-truthful questions to eliminators is too unbalanced.

As such, I think one or both of Archer and Matrim have to be an eliminator.

Permutation 2:

Archer is a villager, Matrim is an eliminator:

In this situation, we have confirmation that the dead can lie. Given the limiting nature of yes/no questions, this is a very significant reduction in the power of Archer's claimed role, which would then produce nothing of real value (and return us again to a position of not being able to confirm alignments in any way, but with Archer's role there for... some reason?)

Permutation 3: Archer is an eliminator, Matrim is a villager + Permutation 4: Archer and Matrim are both eliminators

I don't think we can take it for granted that there was any communication at all, if Archer is evil, although I'm minded to believe there would be - if PMs exist at any point, it is possible that Archer could ask a question where the answer is known by another player, and making a claim that's verifiably false would result in Archer being caught in a lie. I note that Archer has said that speaking to the dead isn't an action (which is interesting, given the power of it), and that this is a useful claim to make in a game with known action scanners.

I'm quite happy to leave my vote on Archer at this juncture, although will see if I can do a re-read of Matrim's posts.

[Ashbringer he/him]

52 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Aman committed to a read (good), and Ashbringer I won’t evaluate because he was on the AG elim team and should know how to respond).

... yeah, wait a minute

False alignment scans being good was not my takeaway from the AG. It worked, yeah, but it's not working here. For one thing, no inverse-proof like Kel's messages. For another thing, I wanted to vote Archer out anyway.

Minor Reads List:

Spoiler

Village-ish: Kas, Orlok, Aman, Araris

Null: Tani, Striker, Dannnex, 

Elim-ish: Illwei, Devotary, TUA, STINK, Stick

Willing to kill: Archer, Thaid, also Devotary

Missing people but whatever I have a class now

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

False alignment scans being good was not my takeaway from the AG. It worked, yeah, but it's not working here. For one thing, no inverse-proof like Kel's messages.

Would agree with this. Meta changes as people anticipate and it no longer becomes an outside possibility. Plus, the set-up was a bit obvious. Blanket goodness should not be takeaway here.