Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Archer he/him]

18 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

... yeah, wait a minute

False alignment scans being good was not my takeaway from the AG. It worked, yeah, but it's not working here. For one thing, no inverse-proof like Kel's messages. For another thing, I wanted to vote Archer out anyway.

Minor Reads List:

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Village-ish: Kas, Orlok, Aman, Araris

Null: Tani, Striker, Dannnex, 

Elim-ish: Illwei, Devotary, TUA, STINK, Stick

Willing to kill: Archer, Thaid, also Devotary

Missing people but whatever I have a class now

I took away that they're useful ways to smack the thread with a stick to get some bees to come out. Or actually this one was more targeted at a single individual. One bee. But I'm okay with multiple bees. 

43 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm not really interested in debating it tbh, so I'm just gonna say my piece, go cook a quick dinner, and get ready for bed.

Could Archer be Village and be honest about his role? I really, severely doubt it. On D1 he called his role an "overglorified vanilla" and I find that telling considering the details he's revealing now. I'm sure he'll say something like "Well, I had to keep the important part of my role a secret so the elims wouldn't kill me. Make it look weaker, y'know?" I do know. And I have considered it. And I don't even think I care.

No single role is so important that we lose if they die. Period. Especially not in a game where the Village has no idea who we are supposed to be voting because we're getting zero alignment flips from the exe. Archer's role is completely alone in apparently interacting with this mechanic after 14/21 total role claims (not counting the 2 Regulars, leaving 5 unclaimed), the only proof of his role we can get is from his word alone, and the one thing that has been proven to always appear in write-ups is Roles.

If Archer is Village, he should be voting himself today. Plain and simple. He should be able to understand how completely bonkers his role is for anyone to trust, whether or not he is honest, because it's completely unverifiable.

There are no alignment scanners, no role scanners, and the exe is only giving us half of the information. So if Archer's role provides concrete information on why we aren't getting the other half that's missing - the MOST important half - rather than just word of mouth, then it's straight up the only real shot we have at solving this game.

Once the Village has that role in the write-up, we can actually hone in on what the heck is going on in this game.

Without it, what the heck are we supposed to do? Cannibalize each other and never know who is who?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what the elims want too.

Archer.

Everyone has a color in our GM PM, yes. The problem is when people die, that color isn't being revealed to the public.

How do you know he's not lying? What has he done or can he do in the future that proves his role at all?

There's a lot going on here.

-It's a big assumption to think my role is what's keeping the alignments concealed. 

-Exing me for not having a provable role is poor strategy. And I did help prove it C1 by sharing the alignment info. 

-I never claimed to be super important, you just projected that. Regardless of what I can do, as a villager with no reason to believe my death would help things, I have no reason to mix myself. There's not even a case to be made about removing myself as a distraction because of the alignment issues. And there's not someone more villagery on the chopping block right now that I feel less useful than. 

Shifting the target of the exe from the elims to the game itself feels like an evil way of justifying a mix. So I'm comfortable with my vote and will now go write an essay

*

Also, important update. I misrelayed the information I got from Mat. The last response was actually yes, proving he COULD lie. I would have noted that if it'd been the other way around, I just mistyped while making the RP

(thanks, dad :P) 

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Again, me giving more details won't help us make better decisions. I'm sure some of the interest is villager driven, but it looks to me like the elims want to know too so. Guess they'll have to kill me and find out if they really wanna know. 

I'm not sure why this is supposed to make sense.

If you are Village and we kill you, we lose a Villager and the information you're trying to protect comes out. We're worse off than in the situation when you do give those details. Given the thread resolve has been to LAFO you, I can't see how your decision matrix makes sense at all except for generating the worst of the worst outcomes.

[---]

29 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I'm not sure why this is supposed to make sense.

If you are Village and we kill you, we lose a Villager and the information you're trying to protect comes out. We're worse off than in the situation when you do give those details. Given the thread resolve has been to LAFO you, I can't see how your decision matrix makes sense at all except for generating the worst of the worst outcomes.

Does the fact that he's not about to give out his information even if by the logic in the thread it would potentially save him from being voted off not seem more villagery to you?

11 hours ago, Archer said:

-Devo's Arsonist theory makes sense to me, and I'm surprised Ashbringer got to the possibility of an Arsonist Conversion game before they considered Arson Kills. My first game, the last Reckoners game, was arson NK, but i think it was a different GM. 

if this is a marson setup like Straw's QF i am NEVER ever ever forgiving TJ for letting me sign up

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

44 minutes ago, Archer said:

Also, important update. I misrelayed the information I got from Mat. The last response was actually yes, proving he COULD lie. I would have noted that if it'd been the other way around, I just mistyped while making the RP

(thanks, dad :P) 

Forgive me for being so blunt as to suggest you’re not being truthful, but I’m not sure I buy this. You went to the effort of embedding the answers in RP, but didn’t think about how that RP would have to include Matrim saying yes to being Frank?

That feels a hugely convenient change, following the conclusion that their not being able to lie entailed Matrim or yourself being evil.

Beyond that, if you can ask three yes or no questions, that can be ignored or lied in response to, what does the role actually do?

Overall, I think enough of this feels off to me that I think you’re evil - or at the very least not a villager.

Firstly, you made the claim of being a village epic, but it works in a different way to nearly every other claimed village epic. It’s certainly possible for this to be the case, but it’s also possible that you gambled on a claim without expecting so many other village epic claims that were more mechanically vanilla.

(As an extension to this, if Archer flips evil, I think we can conclude that his team at large have roles that are in some way non-standard).

@Kasimir has already highlighted why your reluctance to detail your action doesn’t make sense as a villager. If it’s useful to the village, you’re more likely to survive the lynch to use it.

Your interaction with the dead is the only non-action action so far claimed this game, conveniently making it unverifiable. You’ve changed what you claim the result of your action is, also conveniently.

If you are a villager, I really don’t understand why you aren’t coming completely clear about how your role works, but unfortunately, am pretty convinced that you’re not a villager.

[---]

1 minute ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Firstly, you made the claim of being a village epic, but it works in a different way to nearly every other claimed village epic. It’s certainly possible for this to be the case, but it’s also possible that you gambled on a claim without expecting so many other village epic claims that were more mechanically vanilla.

What do you mean by this? In what way does it work different? Purely by being a non confirming role? who are you comparing him to?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Oh boy.

Well.

I sure missed some stuff.

What's the VC? I just need to be on whatever exe pays out here.

[Ashbringer he/him]

IMO, there’s either someone existing who’s keeping Alignments concealed, or there’s a Janitor. Either way, Archer’s a bit suspect. If I’ve got time tonight I’m going to start an action map. Still want to know what roles the others have.

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

What do you mean by this? In what way does it work different? Purely by being a non confirming role? who are you comparing him to?

Archer claims an ability that doesn’t use an action slot. Aside from maaaybe Stick’s extra life, no one else has claimed that. 

Archer - what do you think is stopping flips?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

or there’s a Janitor

Can someone explain what this means? I don't really know this role.

[---]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

Archer claims an ability that doesn’t use an action slot. Aside from maaaybe Stick’s extra life, no one else has claimed that.

My role has a secondary ability that doesn't use an action slot that I will not be talking more about.

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Can someone explain what this means? I don't really know this role.

He is implying that the Elims have an ability that conceals flips. More accurately would be comparative to a death tailor, as janitor is used for roles.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Illwei

[Ashbringer he/him]

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Can someone explain what this means? I don't really know this role.

Erases a flip of a player who’s dying. However, usually it’s only on an NK and also wipes out roles. 

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

My role has a secondary ability that doesn't use an action slot that I will not be talking more about.

That’s… not exactly making me more confident. But good to know. Would you be willing to prove the first one?

[---]

Just now, Ashbringer said:

That’s… not exactly making me more confident. But good to know. Would you be willing to prove the first one?

Like Archer's, it's not a provable role.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

25 minutes ago, Illwei said:

What do you mean by this? In what way does it work different? Purely by being a non confirming role? who are you comparing him to?

He claims to be able to have an ability that isn’t an action (which I increasingly think is strange in a game with potential regulars), is non-mechanical, and to have a second ability that is an action (potentially single use?).

I’m comparing him to myself, the rioters, and lurcher - all of which are claimed village epics with a single, fairly standard, action.

32 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Does the fact that he's not about to give out his information even if by the logic in the thread it would potentially save him from being voted off not seem more villagery to you?

This was addressed to Kas, but my own thoughts are that it doesn’t. I think it’s more likely that it indicates he’s bluffing about an action to make us think he’s too important to lynch than it is that Archer actually has an action so important that it’s better for him to risk being lynched than to tell us. Beyond this, if the eliminators do have a kill, as the rules suggest, and Archer isn’t an eliminator, they’ve just put a large target on their back, and might not get to use their action regardless.

Edit:

19 minutes ago, Illwei said:

My role has a secondary ability that doesn't use an action slot that I will not be talking more about.

He is implying that the Elims have an ability that conceals flips. More accurately would be comparative to a death tailor, as janitor is used for roles.

Much appreciated, Illwei. Unless Archer is an eliminator so integral to the eliminator team that saving him is worth doing at any cost, I don't see e!Illwei making this claim, and indeed was reading Illwei as village D1. 

I'm going to leave my vote on Archer, as I don't think my case is reliant on his role being odd, but will try to re-evaluate. @Archer, I think if you are a villager you really ought to be clearer about your role - as we're presently on course to both lose your role and a lynch on finding it.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

5 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Banking on this not being a double post by virtue of thread rate.

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood, what are your thoughts on what we should do about Devotary and Striker?

Beyond that, I think an explanation is needed on the above. What about your power means it will only affect eliminators, and if it does, why haven't you used it yet? If you get a different result from using it on villagers to eliminators, it provides us alignment information.

I don't know honestly I think that at least one of them is an elimination.

Also what is the vote count now?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Thaidakar the Ghostblood

[---]

someone call me an Elim for "trying to stifle discussion" or I'm going to go mad

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

17 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I don't know honestly I think that at least one of them is an elimination.

Also what is the vote count now?

Appreciated. Would you mind explaining how your power only affects eliminators, however, and if so why you haven’t been using it?

[Ashbringer he/him]

46 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Like Archer's, it's not a provable role.

I mean the redirects. Thanks to Stick I’m mostly okay with double things, but I’d like to watch actions a bit more.

[---]

5 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Appreciated. Would you mind explaining how your power only affects eliminators, however, and if so why you haven’t been using it?

I thought Tani was the one who claimed that, not Thaidikar.

[Quivil she/her]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

@Tani - when you steal a power, does that stop the Epic from using it themselves? Also, do you know who you’d end up targeting on a scan like Orlok’s?

No, they can still use it, I can just also use it. It's a bit like the Truthless in QF59.

What's Orlok's power again?

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

??? Tani This doesnt check out

I'm sorry! I meant I can steal Epic powers. (why am I so bad at typing what I mean to say) I fixed the original post.

9 minutes ago, Illwei said:

someone call me an Elim for "trying to stifle discussion" or I'm going to go mad

"illwei you're an elim. you're trying to stifle discussion. how dare you."

Is your sanity safe?

 

Ed1t:

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

I thought Tani was the one who claimed that, not Thaidikar.

That was a mistake. I apologize for that.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Tani

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

5 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

well, er, that is not my power. I happen to have a different power that I have not used yet and do not intend to actually use for a while, don't worry it won't actually affect any of y'all only elims, so if you are a village you are fine.

 

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I thought Tani was the one who claimed that, not Thaidikar.

I hadn’t even considered Tani’s claim - my question to Thaidakar is in reference to the post I’ve just re-quoted.

[Ashbringer he/him]

17 minutes ago, Tani said:

No, they can still use it, I can just also use it. It's a bit like the Truthless in QF59.

What's Orlok's power again?

Good to know.

Orlok’s a Target Scanner. However, in your case, you target two people: the person who’s powers you’re taking, and the person who you’re using the taken powers on. Do you know who shows up on a target scan?

Alternatively, if you get redirected, does that change which power you grab or who you use it on?

[Quivil she/her]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Good to know.

Orlok’s a Target Scanner. However, in your case, you target two people: the person who’s powers you’re taking, and the person who you’re using the taken powers on. Do you know who shows up on a target scan?

Yes.

Quote

Alternatively, if you get redirected, does that change which power you grab or who you use it on?

Not sure. I asked TJ a bit about an hour ago. (edited)

Ed1t: Thanks for the question!

Edited February 16, 2022 by Tani

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

2 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Appreciated. Would you mind explaining how your power only affects eliminators, however, and if so why you haven’t been using it?

Well I have not used it because I can only do it once a game, it in affect can kill an elim but if I do it on a village by accident it will simply not work and I won't get a redo. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

13 minutes ago, Tani said:

Yes.

Not sure. I asked TJ a bit about an hour ago. (edited)

Ed1t: Thanks for the question!

... care to share with the class? 

Jk, you don't have to. Actually maybe you shouldn't. Idk. Up to you.

2 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Well I have not used it because I can only do it once a game, it in affect can kill an elim but if I do it on a village by accident it will simply not work and I won't get a redo. 

Do you know what happens if you use it on a Neutral?

Either way, it's a one-shot Alignment scan with the added bonus of killing an Elim it finds for us so we don't waste a cycle exing them. That's... really powerful.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

Do you know what happens if you use it on a Neutral?

Either way, it's a one-shot Alignment scan with the added bonus of killing an Elim it finds for us so we don't waste a cycle exing them. That's... really powerful.

No idea. 

It really is. I don't want to misuse it. I just need to find out who an elimination is first.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Thaidakar the Ghostblood

[Archer he/him]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm not sure why this is supposed to make sense. If you are Village and we kill you, we lose a Villager and the information you're trying to protect comes out. We're worse off than in the situation when you do give those details. Given the thread resolve has been to LAFO you, I can't see how your decision matrix makes sense at all except for generating the worst of the worst outcomes.

Correct, the better way forward is to not kill me. 

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Archer - what do you think is stopping flips?

I think I'm partial to the elims can either NK or conceal the exe alignment, and they've enjoyed trolling us/establishing a baseline to hide a previous elim flip. 

3 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

He claims to be able to have an ability that isn’t an action (which I increasingly think is strange in a game with potential regulars), is non-mechanical, and to have a second ability that is an action (potentially single use?).

I’m comparing him to myself, the rioters, and lurcher - all of which are claimed village epics with a single, fairly standard, action.

This was addressed to Kas, but my own thoughts are that it doesn’t. I think it’s more likely that it indicates he’s bluffing about an action to make us think he’s too important to lynch than it is that Archer actually has an action so important that it’s better for him to risk being lynched than to tell us. Beyond this, if the eliminators do have a kill, as the rules suggest, and Archer isn’t an eliminator, they’ve just put a large target on their back, and might not get to use their action regardless.

I'm going to leave my vote on Archer, as I don't think my case is reliant on his role being odd, but will try to re-evaluate. @Archer, I think if you are a villager you really ought to be clearer about your role - as we're presently on course to both lose your role and a lynch on finding it.

I assumed the weirdness about it being an action was related to the flexible nature of the question period. I'm submitting these between rollovers, which is fairly unique. But not that unique. Mat had a complicated ability too, and Illwei apparently. 

PAFO :P. 

 

2 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I don't know honestly I think that at least one of them is an elimination.

this still makes me laugh

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Well I have not used it because I can only do it once a game, it in affect can kill an elim but if I do it on a village by accident it will simply not work and I won't get a redo. 

looks like a free alignment scan to me