Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[---]

absolutely everything on this page has undone my townreads on Ash and Aman.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Illwei, since when do Reckoners have Epic Allies? Since when do they have over ten?

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

But wheeeeeeeeeeeen!!!

Wait a minute...

Okay, TJ confirmed I can't grant Remove-Alignments-From-Writeup power. Crisis averted.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Amanuensis. I'm back to wanting to die again. Just let me eat popcorn with Mat and Karn in the dead doc and watch the chaos enfold in sanity.

[---]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

both E! and V! Illwei does things like this sometimes, and I'll tunnel on it regardless.

That's objectively the incorrect approach to something that someone does that is NAI. And it's frustrating. Please don't.

4 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Illwei, since when do Reckoners have Epic Allies? Since when do they have over ten?

Since now, obviously :P.

[Ashbringer he/him]

4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

That's objectively the incorrect approach to something that someone does that is NAI. And it's frustrating. Please don't.

I know. I don't mean to. But in pretty much anyone else it would earn my vote. So I tunnel on it. I'm speaking more from past experience (LG69 and LG73) than what I want to do.

But you did claim my Gift as a full role.

Edit:

4 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Amanuensis. I'm back to wanting to die again. Just let me eat popcorn with Mat and Karn in the dead doc and watch the chaos enfold in sanity.

I'm gonna laugh if Archer Revives you 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Ashbringer

[---]

Just now, Ashbringer said:

But you did claim my Gift as a full role.

One day I want someone to run with something for me ;-;

Kas said he would but he has never trusted me enough to live up to that promise.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Quote

Matrim's Dice (5): Experience, Ashbringer, Karnatheon, Archer, _Stick_, JNV, Thaidakar the Ghostblood
Karnatheon (2): Kasimir, Araris Valerian, Tani, Amanuensis
_Stick_ (5): Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Devotary of Spontaneity

???

[Kasimir he/him]

16 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

VC:

Archer (10): Kasimir, Araris Valerian, Ashbringer, Tani, Devotary of Spontaneity, _Stick_, JNV, Amanuensis, Thaidakar the Ghostblood, Orlok Tsubodai
Amanuensis (2): Illwei, Archer

Confirming that you will get alignment flips on death in this game. 

Thanks Mr GM sir, I can stop my SE-existential crisis now

[Amanuensis he/him]

15 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Quote

Matrim's Dice (5): Experience, Ashbringer, Karnatheon, Archer, _Stick_, JNV, Thaidakar the Ghostblood
Karnatheon (2): Kasimir, Araris Valerian, Tani, Amanuensis
_Stick_ (5): Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Devotary of Spontaneity

???

By the way, the proposal here is the E!Soother tried to remove my vote from Mat, but wasn't online during EoD to see me switch to Karn.

ED1T:

It's the only role we know exists that hasn't been claimed by anyone. Can't be Szeth, can't be Mint, can't be Stink.

@Illwei, you a Soother? Is that why you used the gifted redirect and we didn't see a Soothing in yesterday's exe?

ED2T:

@Kasimir Would love for you to call me crazy, whenever you have time.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

???

Too neat for my tastes. Especially because it leaves out some key individuals (namely TUA).

5 minutes ago, Illwei said:

One day I want someone to run with something for me ;-;

Kas said he would but he has never trusted me enough to live up to that promise.

One day. Add it to the reasons I'd have liked PMs this game.

This feels like LG73. Whenever I want to RP, I do that. Whenever I want to analyze, I end up doing chaos and RP. Whenever I want chaos, I end up analyzing 

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, Illwei said:

One day I want someone to run with something for me ;-;

Kas said he would but he has never trusted me enough to live up to that promise.

One day maybe. If we can stop the batchull sus cycles.

Edited to add: @Amanuensis — it feels too neat. Possible but I'm hesitating on plausibility. Painfully feeling the lack of a flip.

Question for you—if we agree V KS and V Gifter are weird together, does V Mat commit us to E Ash?

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

Quote

I don't know why I didn't call this one earlier, but Mat is village. this is basically almost completely off of the post where he said "I want to look back and see how many of the IllweiTakes were right" or whatnot. I really like the nonchalance of how he said that and just. the casualness. Like "Oh illwei is making her reads trackable, let's see how accurate she really is" or something. 
I still want to think that Mat is village, but when you don't voice your paranoia and then people reinforce it it's hard to say no. I'm not going to be voting mat today but I'm not as opposed to a Mat exe with how he's treating the thread. 

The next person who mentions PMs unironically ends up on my kill list

I think it's a good look on Aman that he said he wanted to chill, and then pulls out a wall on Mat. Regardless of conclusion on mat or Mat's alignment, I think it's a good look as he wasn't recieving any sort of pressure in thread for it. 

Noting:

• Illwei "read" Mat as Village for what could have been an E/E interaction (Mat being chummy about how right Illwei would be at the end)
• Illwei half-retracted views on Mat after I "reinforced paranoia she didn't voice"
• Illwei kept her vote on Stick the entire turn
• Illwei is still pushing a V!Mat world now, because of his role

Ash himself pointed out how many people bounced on and off Mat, and how no one did on Stick.

ED1T:

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Question for you—if we agree V KS and V Gifter are weird together, does V Mat commit us to E Ash?

Probably, but I highly doubt it. I'm about as confident in V!Ash as I am in E!Archer. E!Ash only works if on a team with Illwei and Araris, which is much crazier than Mat/Illwei

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

12 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Question for you—if we agree V KS and V Gifter are weird together, does V Mat commit us to E Ash?

Counterpoint: Beagle.

... actually, that's sort of the opposite of Beagle.

Counterpoint: Beagle^-1.

 

Idk. But my ability is pretty much the most traceable one we have unless there really is a redirector or I run into Araris again. Although I have half a mind to Gift Striker. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

On 2/15/2022 at 0:38 AM, Amanuensis said:

Amanuensis	Regular Reckoner
Illwei	Claimed Epic ([Redirector]) Lie
Matrim’s Dice	Non-Epic Knighthawk Scientist
Experience	Claimed Epic (D-coy [Lurcher])
Kasimir	Claimed Epic (Inception [Rioter])
StrikerEZ	Claimed Neutral Epic (Mimic [Action Doubler)
The Unknown Aon	Regular Reckoner
Araris Valerian	Claimed Epic (WiMP [Action Swapper])
Ashbringer	Claimed Epic (Gifter [Free Powers!])
Tani	Claimed Epic (Robin Hood [Ability Steal])
Karnatheon	Epic (Pendulum [Rioter])
Devotary of Spontaneity	Claimed Neutral Non-Epic (Huntress [SK])
Archer	Claimed Epic (Medium)
STINK
_Stick_	Claimed Epic (Passive Survival + One Shot)
Szeth_Pancakes
MintSilverTea	INACTIVE
JNV	Claimed Regular Reckoner
Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Claimed Epic (Unknown)
Orlok Tsubodai	Claimed Epic (Lookout)
Dannnex	Claimed "Not Vanilla"

Verified Role Claims:

1. Experience's Protection Role verified by Stick's NK Survival via Striker Mimicry
2. Kasimir Rioter Role verified by being the first person to reveal his Epic came with a proper name + vote manip tracking
3. StrikerEZ Mimicry Role verified by Devotary and Experience
4. Araris Action-Swap Role verified by Orlok's Lookout Role
5. Ashbringer's Gifter Role verified by Illwei and Araris Both
6. Tani verification granted on sheer ability to easily get verified if honest - will reevaluate with no future proof
7. Orlok verified by successfully identifying Araris and my own actions

Unverified Role Claims:

1. Illwei (precedence of lying about role, currently unknown)
2. Devotary (only verification = kill on Stick -- WHERE IS NK?)
3. Archer (Completely unverifiable role without revival)
4. Stick (Claimed one-use active and passive extra life)
5. Thaidakar (Do I even need to write a note?)
6. Dannnex (Has claimed a role but not any details)

Regular Claims: 

1. TUA Regular verified by me for being the first person to claim Regular, not Vanilla
2. Aman Regular pseudo-verified by Orlok seeing I took no action on N2 (Alignment tied to TUA's, if you want to be paranoid)
3. JNV Regular pseudo-verified (2 is way too few imo, but less verifiable than TUA)

No Claims:

1. STINK
2. Szeth_Pancakes
3. MintSilverTea

---

Assuming a team of 4-5 within unverified/unclaimed

1. Mat
2. Archer
3. Illwei
4. Devo
5. Szeth? Thaid? Mint? STINK? Dannnex? (In that order, ig) Striker (for paranoia)?

ED1T:

Archer. 

ED2T:

@StrikerEZ I'm not quite sure why you're still being obtuse about your win con. We've all basically accepted you're Neutral and have expressed a willingness to help you achieve it. Help us help you?

ED3T:

@Illwei, if the Knighthawk Scientist role doesn't immediately stand out as weird, then why has every other claim in this game been an Epic except for Devotary, who's claiming a Neutral Non-Epic SK?

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

16 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

@StrikerEZ I'm not quite sure why you're still being obtuse about your win con. We've all basically accepted you're Neutral and have expressed a willingness to help you achieve it. Help us help you?

Methinks that Striker isn't exactly going to be happy about completely solving the game. I have a... theory, that it's perhaps Striker who's obfuscating writeup flips, but that doesn't make much sense with his Mimic role unless it's some identity-snatching thing. He also didn't vote for Mat C1 unless Rioting went even weirder than we thought.

Also for the sake of the chart, there is a Soother somewhere (I couldn't have given someone that to use C1) and despite Illwei lying she couldn't have done the Elim kill on C2. Then again, if anyone did the Elim kill C2 it's Devotary or some semi-fortunate roleblockee.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Methinks that Striker isn't exactly going to be happy about completely solving the game. I have a... theory, that it's perhaps Striker who's obfuscating writeup flips, but that doesn't make much sense with his Mimic role unless it's some identity-snatching thing. He also didn't vote for Mat C1 unless Rioting went even weirder than we thought.

Also for the sake of the chart, there is a Soother somewhere (I couldn't have given someone that to use C1) and despite Illwei lying she couldn't have done the Elim kill on C2. Then again, if anyone did the Elim kill C2 it's Devotary or some semi-fortunate roleblockee.

That's definitely a theory I could see working  but does it work as a Neutral?

Like, in V!Archer and N!Striker alignment-stealer world, the moment Striker dies (and sure, takes someone else down with him), Archer's role becomes completely unusable since he can only interact with the most recent person that died without an alignment.

In an E!Archer and N!Striker alignment-stealer world, Archer's role or the role of a teammate would need to have an ability to interact with no-alignment flips. Which doesn't work at all really cause why? What do the elims gain from a role like that?

In an E!Archer and E!Striker alignment-stealer world, my whole theory is proven about his claim. They knew about the flips ahead of time from Striker's role, knew about Village Epics from Mat's role, and we end up with...

A team of Mat, Archer, Striker, Devotary, and maybe Illwei (very likely the Soother, given how she left the thread as soon as I called her out).

ED1T:

@Archer how do you feel about us exeing Striker today over you? It might prove your role.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

That's definitely a theory I could see working  but does it work as a Neutral?

Like, in V!Archer and N!Striker alignment-stealer world, the moment Striker dies (and sure, takes someone else down with him), Archer's role becomes completely unusable since he can only interact with the most recent person that die without an alignment.

In an E!Archer and N!Striker alignment-stealer world, Archer's role or the role of a teammate would need to have an ability to interact with no-alignment flips. Which doesn't work at all really cause why? What do the elims gain from a role like that?

In an E!Archer and E!Striker alignment-stealer world, my whole theory is proven about his claim. They knew about the flips ahead of time, knew about Village Epics from Mat's role, and we end up with...

A team of Mat, Archer, Striker, Devotary, and maybe Illwei.

Well, V!Archer loses the medium power but instead becomes an unrestricted Reviver, assuming V!Archer is telling the truth. Which is powerful enough.

I agree E!Archer and N!Striker doesn't really make sense, unless it's solely as a fake claim... but there's some precedent for semi-useless Elim roles (Elim Alignment Scanners).

E!Archer and E!Striker... honestly if this is the case, I'd expect Archer to flip something completely different. That's something that I just now realize has been bothering me, which is if an Elim Archer is stopping flips, why have him be the one to claim Medium... I guess there are advantages (ie if he flips Soother, something's wrong, and we can start safely murdering unprovable actions. Er, maybe not 'we', Mr. Vanilla ).

Idk. I'm alright with this. I also really can't see a world where a role is passively blocking flips, and Striker's been on point with action submissions.

[Amanuensis he/him]

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Well, V!Archer loses the medium power but instead becomes an unrestricted Reviver, assuming V!Archer is telling the truth. Which is powerful enough.

Revivers are balanced around no flips is the point. Unless I'm missing something, I can't see why the GMs would approve a game where someone could resurrect a known Villager, who's role is known, in a game with as many crazy roles as there are in this one. It would have to only work on the flipless, or that the Villager getting resurrected has a chance of their alignment being Corrupted (hence me saying I don't mess with zombies earlier). Otherwise you get forever protected Mayors.

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I agree E!Archer and N!Striker doesn't really make sense, unless it's solely as a fake claim... but there's some precedent for semi-useless Elim roles (Elim Alignment Scanners).

Precedent or not, look at the kayana abilities in this game. Lookouts for example are incredibly broken unless the Elims have a way to strategize around it (something like Araris' WiMP role). I'm sure the elims have some roles meant to protect them from all the info role claims we have, but that none of the roles they're claiming (or very few) are legit, and thus unverifiable.

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

E!Archer and E!Striker... honestly if this is the case, I'd expect Archer to flip something completely different. That's something that I just now realize has been bothering me, which is if an Elim Archer is stopping flips, why have him be the one to claim Medium... I guess there are advantages (ie if he flips Soother, something's wrong, and we can start safely murdering unprovable actions. Er, maybe not 'we', Mr. Vanilla ).

That's what I've been getting at this whole time  Archer is probably the least important role on the team, hence him making the bold claim in the first place D1, and not a Medium at all. If it backfired and he got exed, it wouldn't harm them too much, but if it worked, he'd be riding Village cred for a very long time.

ED1T:

• Mat / Archer / Striker / Devo / Illwei
• Mat / Archer / Devo / Illwei / ??? (They know about no-flips because of an unclaimed role like Janitor and Striker is unrelated)

4th/5th Member: Either Araris, STINK, or one of the low actives - kill last

I'm pretty sold on this tbh. It fits all the reads I've consolidated throughout the game.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Ashbringer he/him]

18 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Revivers are balanced around no flips is the point. There's no way the GMs would approve a game where someone could resurrect a known Villager, who's role is known, in a game with as many crazy roles as there are in this one. It would have to only work on the flipless, or that the Villager getting resurrected has a chance of their alignment being Corrupted (hence me saying I don't mess with zombies earlier). Otherwise you get forever protected Mayors.

Eh, you can get forever protected Mayors off a standard alignment scan. That's what happened to Penguin. It's just more complicated. And I'm sure there's a way to balance it, I'm just terrified at what that balancing would be. But either way... putting chance into it makes it veeery swingy.

18 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Precedent or not, look at the kayana abilities in this game. Lookouts for example are incredibly broken unless the Elims have a way to strategize around it (something like Araris' WiMP role). I'm sure the elims have some roles meant to protect them from all the info role claims we have, but that none of the roles they're claiming (or very few) are legit, and thus unverifiable.

I'm still not sure what kayana means

This really depends on the Elim kill. This still could be an Arsonist or Conversion game, and Lookouts (or our version of Lookouts) are a decent staple. A powerful staple, but still a staple. And between potentially Striker, Araris, Orlok, potentially Tani and E!Me, and the non-proven, there's a lot of space for an Elim anti-info role.

18 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

That's what I've been getting at this whole time  Archer is probably the least important role on the team, hence him making the bold claim in the first place D1, and not a Medium at all. If it backfired and he got exed, it wouldn't harm them too much, but if it worked, he'd be riding Village cred for a very long time.

Yeah. That strategy just makes it less likely Archer dying will actually reveal alignments. Idk though.

 

I'm pretty sure at least one Elim has claimed a proven role. No Night Kill or a claimed Night Kill thanks to Devotary, so not really much reason to not claim.

 

I'm probably going to sign off for the night. Try not to... I don't even care how many pages it is anymore. See you all at rollover.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Ashbringer

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Yeah. That strategy just makes it less likely Archer dying will actually reveal alignments. Idk though.

The point isn't for his death to reveal alignments again. It's to verify if we can believe anything he's saying by seeing his role. If he's honest about it, he's very unlikely to be an Elim and we can figure out the next exe from that assumption. If he completely fabricated his role, we know a lot more about the elims. It's why it's a win-win. Either way, D4 we hit the ground running.

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Eh, you can get forever protected Mayors off a standard alignment scan. That's what happened to Penguin. It's just more complicated. And I'm sure there's a way to balance it, I'm just terrified at what that balancing would be. But either way... putting chance into it makes it veeery swingy.

While true, alignment scans don't reverse a player death, thus nullifying any ground already gained by the elims

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm probably going to sign off for the night. Try not to... I don't even care how many pages it is anymore. See you all at rollover.

Goodnight Ash! Good talk

Edited February 16, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Quivil she/her]

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

Unironically calling me bad is only a thing Elims have ever done, so thanks for outing yourself like that :P.

D'you mean bad like Elim or bad like bad at analysis and stuff?

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

^ I'll ... urge Tani to ask TJ what happens if you copy a one-use power.

I use it too, but only if I copied it in the cycle they chose to use it in.

 

Update answer: If I get redirected with a simple redirect, it changes who's power I steal.

6 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

TJ PAFO'd it, since answering would've been confirming/denying Mat's roleclaim. I didn't bother asking the same question for Tani's role cuz I can guess the answer  

D1 iirc, TJ PAFO'd a question I asked about Striker's roleclaim.

I adjusted the question to say someone with the role Striker claimed.

TJ answered.

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm still not sure what kayana means

It's from Duladen. It means crazy or insane.

 

@|TJ| Will it be different Mint dies to an action vs. to the inactivity filter? Will it be clear which she dies to?

[|TJ| he/him]

1 minute ago, Tani said:

@|TJ| Will it be different Mint dies to an action vs. to the inactivity filter? Will it be clear which she dies to?

I'll just mention they were killed by the filter. 

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

I HAVE RETURNED for one post I AM A WAFFLE JELLO BIRD SQUID!!!

[STINK he/him]

I've been in bed with a migraine for the last like 20 hours so any tl;dr pls and thank you I can physically not read that much text without getting a worse headache