We've underestimated Shardplate.

[Frustration he/him]

So I've been doing a skim through of Rhythm of War for a few days, and I've noticed a few details about shradplate I feel would be good to point out.

The first is that living Shardplate requires no stormlight for fuel.

Quote

"Wondering why she'd started breathing again. Running out of Stormlight, she thought, numb. She looked down at her gauntleted palm, which was stained with orange singer blood." -RoW page 756

A long time of breathing, walking, and talking all in Shardplate later

"She stared at it then drew in the Light. That made her feel better, but not all of her fatigue was physical." -RoW page 757.

We know from Words of Radiance that Plate is too heavy to lift, or move in without the strength it gives. Therefore living Shardplate must give the user stregth without stormlight.

 

The second thing is that shardplate can turn invisible, and I don't mean dismissed I mean invisible.

Quote

"Remarkably, as Lirin touched the Plate, he couldn't feel it. It became completly transparent-barely visible, in fact as a faint outline around Kaladin." -RoW page 1150

"Kaladin touched Lirin's forehead with fingers that felt normal, despite being faintly outlined with the gauntlet." -RoW page 1150

"Rlain couldn't feel the Plate, though it was apparently always there-invisible, but ready when needed." -RoW page 1189

So, there are some notes, what do you think?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

We know from Words of Radiance that Plate is too heavy to lift, or move in without the strength it gives. Therefore living Shardplate must give the user stregth without stormlight.

We don't know that Jasnah was out of stormlight. Kaladin had an extended conversation with stormlight still in him, and he was only on the second ideal.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The second thing is that shardplate can turn invisible, and I don't mean dismissed I mean invisible.

It's the same thing as dismissed. It's not solid when invisible.

[AquaRegia he/him]

Perhaps better title for your topic would be "awesome features of LIVING Shardplate", since that's what you are really talking about, not the fabrial versions we've mostly seen.  And I don't think we're all guilty of "underestimating".

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We know from Words of Radiance that Plate is too heavy to lift, or move in without the strength it gives. Therefore living Shardplate must give the user stregth without stormlight.

I think it's also reasonable to assume that, being formed from spren, living Plate doesn't weigh as much as the "dead" fabrial versions.  The scene where Kal briefly lends his Plate to Adin confirms, however, that it also enhances strength:

Quote

[Adin] kicked at the stormform.  The creature went flying, soaring twenty feet and slamming into a wall.  Adin had barely felt any resistance.  - RoW p. 1166

I certainly agree that it should not consume Stormlight, just as a living Blade does not.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

It's the same thing as dismissed. It's not solid when invisible.

I strongly disagree here - the text is very clear.  The Plate is still there, NOT dismissed, faintly visible but not a solid barrier.  The Plate is not noticed or mentioned by anyone in Kaladin's subsequent chapters, from which I infer that it CAN be truly dismissed.  But chapter 110 definitely describes a previously unknown state that living Plate can be in: summoned, worn, but insubstantial.  Presumably, like a living Blade, it can respond to the Radiant's mental commands, converting instantly between spren form, worn-yet-permeable, fully solid, or fully dismissed.  I wonder if, like a living Blade, living Plate can assume different physical forms as imagined by the Radiant.

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I certainly agree that it should not consume Stormlight, just as a living Blade does not.

We don't know that Adin didn't have some spheres on him. And a dead blade doesn't need stormlight to be super sharp and cut stuff. You just need it to form a bond.

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I strongly disagree here - the text is very clear.  The Plate is still there, NOT dismissed, faintly visible but not a solid barrier.  The Plate is not noticed or mentioned by anyone in Kaladin's subsequent chapters, from which I infer that it CAN be truly dismissed.  But chapter 110 definitely describes a previously unknown state that living Plate can be in: summoned, worn, but insubstantial.  Presumably, like a living Blade, it can respond to the Radiant's mental commands, converting instantly between spren form, worn-yet-permeable, fully solid, or fully dismissed.  I wonder if, like a living Blade, living Plate can assume different physical forms as imagined by the Radiant.

My point is that it is functionally the same thing as dismissed. And yes, living Plate can change forms. Jasnah did it while fighting, closing eyeslits and opening vents on her helmet.

[Frustration he/him]

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that Jasnah was out of stormlight. Kaladin had an extended conversation with stormlight still in him, and he was only on the second ideal.

The only conversation I ever recall Kaladin having while holding Stormlight was when he was so full it leaked through his skin. Not when he had so little he had to breathe on his onw. And besides that if plate did drain stormlight it would be gone between it's consumption and Jasnah speaking.

However we know she has none because she notices a difference after she inhales new stormlight.

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

It's the same thing as dismissed. It's not solid when invisible.

What tells you that?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that Adin didn't have some spheres on him. And a dead blade doesn't need stormlight to be super sharp and cut stuff. You just need it to form a bond.

We know from Dawnshard that plate can't take stormlight from spheres it has to touch the gems.

Quote

"Nearby, Cord muttered softly. Rysn glanced over to find the Horneater womanhad the Shardplate boots on, and was trying to force the breastplate to take her spheres. 'I think you need free gemstones, Cord,' Rysn said. 'Not ones encased in glass.'" -Dawnshard page 231

 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The only conversation I ever recall Kaladin having while holding Stormlight was when he was so full it leaked through his skin. Not when he had so little he had to breathe on his onw. And besides that if plate did drain stormlight it would be gone between it's consumption and Jasnah speaking.

However we know she has none because she notices a difference after she inhales new stormlight.

Plate doesn’t drain stormlight, or at least if it does it’s an imperceptible amount.

Kaladin had stormlight in him when bridge 4 was getting their tattoos. It was a very small amount, and he was talking and breathing normally. He also didn’t realize he had stormlight till his tattoo healed away, so if Jasnah was running very low on stormlight, she would still have felt a noticeable difference when she got more.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What tells you that?

Your quotes. Even if the armor transferred a sense of touch, you’d still recognize that your hand stopped a couple inches touching Kaladin.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We know from Dawnshard that plate can't take stormlight from spheres it has to touch the gems.

Hm. That is dead plate, but I see your point. However, that doesn’t mean that living plate doesn’t need stormlight. It could also be able to hold a small amount of stormlight, like when Shallan pushed stormlight into pattern.

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Plate doesn’t drain stormlight, or at least if it does it’s an imperceptible amount.

Kaladin had stormlight in him when bridge 4 was getting their tattoos. It was a very small amount, and he was talking and breathing normally. He also didn’t realize he had stormlight till his tattoo healed away, so if Jasnah was running very low on stormlight, she would still have felt a noticeable difference when she got more.

He had spheres on him, and tatoos are painful, he could easily have drawn tiny amounts of stormlight in.

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Your quotes. Even if the armor transferred a sense of touch, you’d still recognize that your hand stopped a couple inches touching Kaladin.

Plate isn't a couple inches thick, not on the gauntlet. And it takes care to point out the armor, it never said his fingers go through it.

the first quote about Kal talks about not feeling th shardplate, then it turns invisible.

The second quote points out that his hand is outlined with the guantlet but that his fingers feel normal.

The third quote specifically says invisible, it doesn't say dismissed, and italicises "always there".

Additionally dead plate makes the inside of it's helm transparent, and provides some sense of touch to the one inside. Living plate gives sense of touch to both the wearer and anyone they interact with, why couldn't it turn invisible?

Edited March 4, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He had spheres on him, and tatoos are painful, he could easily have drawn tiny amounts of stormlight in.

If that was the case, then why did he think about the fact that stormlight leaks verily slowly when you only have a tiny amount?

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Plate isn't a couple inches thick, not on the gauntlet. And it takes care to point out the armor, it never said his fingers go through it.

the first quote about Kal talks about not feeling th shardplate, then it turns invisible.

The second quote points out that his hand is outlined with the guantlet but that his fingers feel normal.

The third quote specifically says invisible, not dismissed, and italicises always there.

Additionally dead plate makes the inside of it's helm transparent, and provides some sense of touch to the one inside. Living plate gives sense of touch to both the wearer and anyone they interact with, why couldn't it turn invisible?

You’d still notice. At least somebody would have been like “woah, did Kaladin’s hands get bigger?”

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

If that was the case, then why did he think about the fact that stormlight leaks verily slowly when you only have a tiny amount?

You're going to have to get me the quote on that one.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You’d still notice. At least somebody would have been like “woah, did Kaladin’s hands get bigger?”

If you mean by looks that wouldn't happen, if you mean, hey I can feel him without touching him, Lirin can see the outline of the armor, and we don't get another PoV of someone commenting on it except Rlain, who says that the armor, is invisible.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

 

Spoiler

40 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You’d still notice. At least somebody would have been like “woah, did Kaladin’s hands get bigger?”

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

hey I can feel him without touching him, Lirin can see the outline of the armor, and we don't get another PoV of someone commenting on it except Rlain, who says that the armor, is invisible.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

"Remarkably, as Lirin touched the Plate, he couldn't feel it. It became completly transparent-barely visible, in fact as a faint outline around Kaladin." -RoW page 1150

"Kaladin touched Lirin's forehead with fingers that felt normal, despite being faintly outlined with the gauntlet." -RoW page 1150

"Rlain couldn't feel the Plate, though it was apparently always there-invisible, but ready when needed." -RoW page 1189

 

spoilered the quoted responses for size

I'm with Frustration on this one.  It seems to me that that is exactly what Lirin noticed, just internally; his hand touching kaladin before actual skin to skin contact is made, making Kal "bigger" by the plate aura around him.

also idk if it's just me, but I feel like this discussion is shooting itself in the foot not considering that living plate is made up of spren - maybe some of the differences can be analyzed more finely in that context?

I assume the windspren that make up Kal's plate just hang out around him in the CR, slipping from partially to fully in the PR as his need for plate Waxes and Waynes 

[Frustration he/him]

14 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

also idk if it's just me, but I feel like this discussion is shooting itself in the foot not considering that living plate is made up of spren - maybe some of the differences can be analyzed more finely in that context?

Dead plate is made of spren too. Unless I'm completly missing what you mean.

14 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

I assume the windspren that make up Kal's plate just hang out around him in the CR, slipping from partially to fully in the PR as his need for plate Waxes and Waynes 

Windspren spend almost all of their time in the physical realm, though other spren are probably like that.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dead plate is made of spren too. Unless I'm completly missing what you mean.

Windspren spend almost all of their time in the physical realm, though other spren are probably like that.

not missing the point, i just did a poor job putting my thoughts down lol.

more concise - its worth noting that all plate is made up of lesser spren.  As I see it, the fact that living and dead plate are different means something is different in the spren that make them up, whether that be the equivalent thing the recreance did to deadeye blades happening to lesser spren, or something different.  Its just a different avenue for thoughts and questions.  Maybe, knowing more about the relationship between blades and deadeyes than we do living and dead plate, that could be a jumping off point for something

True.  Maybe they just flit around nearby, close enough that they can wink into existence at his need. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Anomander Rake
a clause

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

You're going to have to get me the quote on that one.

Quote

Kaladin sighed, realizing he had a little Stormlight raging in his veins. He hadn't even noticed drawing it in, but he seemed to be getting better and better at holding it. He frequently took in a little these days while walking about. Holding Stormlight was like filling a wineskin--if you filled it to bursting and unstopped it, it would squirt out quickly, the slow to a trickle. Same with Light. (Ch. 2 P. 59 WoR)

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If you mean by looks that wouldn't happen, if you mean, hey I can feel him without touching him, Lirin can see the outline of the armor, and we don't get another PoV of someone commenting on it except Rlain, who says that the armor, is invisible.

Kaladin hugged Lirin. The chestplate is definitely far enough away from Kaladin's chest that it would have been really weird for Lirin to feel as if Kaladin was hugging him without it.

Whatever the case, whether Shardplate can be invisible but still solid or not, it doesn't change the usefulness of the armor dramatically. You can summon it instantly, so surprise attacks are still of the table.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 

Quote

Kaladin sighed, realizing he had a little Stormlight raging in his veins. He hadn't even noticed drawing it in, but he seemed to be getting better and better at holding it. He frequently took in a little these days while walking about. Holding Stormlight was like filling a wineskin--if you filled it to bursting and unstopped it, it would squirt out quickly, the slow to a trickle. Same with Light. (Ch. 2 P. 59 WoR)

 

I still don't see how that rules out him just drawing it in.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin hugged Lirin. The chestplate is definitely far enough away from Kaladin's chest that it would have been really weird for Lirin to feel as if Kaladin was hugging him without it.

Breastplates were only a few millimeters thick.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Whatever the case, whether Shardplate can be invisible but still solid or not, it doesn't change the usefulness of the armor dramatically. You can summon it instantly, so surprise attacks are still of the table.

Or you could just always wear it, rendering you protected, even while asleep.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

I still don't see how that rules out him just drawing it in.

It doesn't. However, he talks with stormlight in him, and it doesn't immediately run out. Jasnah is 2 ideals above him at least.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Breastplates were only a few millimeters thick.

Uh, have you seen shardplate's art? It's thicker than a few millimeters. And it's a different shape than a normal human chest.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Or you could just always wear it, rendering you protected, even while asleep.

Or you could just let the spren keep watch while you sleep and solidify if needed.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

 

  Hide contents

 

... slipping from partially to fully in the PR as his need for plate Waxes and Waynes 

I see what you did there.  ;-)

[Anomander Rake he/him]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Breastplates were only a few millimeters thick.

14 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Uh, have you seen shardplate's art? It's thicker than a few millimeters. And it's a different shape than a normal human chest.

Forgot about the hug.  While the plate gauntlets are def thin so you retain dexterity in your fingers, shardbearers have chests as deep as storming horses, the breastplate is certainly over a centimeter thick in places.

Not sure that it rules anything out though.  Maybe, since we know living plate is pretty adjustable, it scales itself back when not actively defending from things?  Still leaving the outline, but one closer to Kal's actual profile.

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I see what you did there.  ;-)

i might've drawn a few eyes at work while i had a laugh with myself at my desk XD. the opportunity was too good

Edited March 4, 2022 by Anomander Rake
clarity

[Frustration he/him]

36 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It doesn't. However, he talks with stormlight in him, and it doesn't immediately run out. Jasnah is 2 ideals above him at least.

But she spends far more time with what is probably fractions of a chip. She fought for a while without enough stormlight to breathe, walked several hundred yards, and then had a conversation with Hoid. If she had any at the start it is gone by the time she draws more in.

36 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Uh, have you seen shardplate's art? It's thicker than a few millimeters. And it's a different shape than a normal human chest.

24 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

Forgot about the hug.  While the plate gauntlets are def thin so you retain dexterity in your fingers, shardbearers have chests as deep as storming horses, the breastplate is certainly over a centimeter thick in places.

Not sure that it rules anything out though.  Maybe, since we know living plate is pretty adjustable, it scales itself back when not actively defending from things?  Still leaving the outline, but one closer to Kal's actual profile.

Each Shardplate is a different shape, and Rosharans are much bigger than Earth humans. And especialy with Shad as historical consultant Shardplate is not going to be much thicker if at all.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

But she spends far more time with what is probably fractions of a chip. She Fought for a while without enough stormlight to breathe, walked several hundred yards, and then had a conversation with Hoid.

We don't know that it was a fraction of a chip. We just know that it was enough that she started breathing again. And again, she is vastly better at holding Stormlight than Kaladin was in WoR. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that it was a fraction of a chip. We just know that it was enough that she started breathing again. And again, she is vastly better at holding Stormlight than Kaladin was in WoR. 

If it's enough you need to breathe it is less than a chip. Being better at holding stormlight won't stop you from losing some while breathing, being better at holding stormlight means you leak less and are more efficent.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

If it's enough you need to breathe it is less than a chip. Being better at holding stormlight won't stop you from losing some while breathing, being better at holding stormlight means you leak less and are more efficent.

Yes it will, because you leak less when you breath.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Nameless said:

Yes it will, because you leak less when you breath.

I have to doubt that.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

I have to doubt that.

I don't see why you wouldn't leak less when you're breathing when you leak less normally too.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

Magic aside, lets compare medieval plate armor to shardplate.  Medieval plate was usually 2-3mm thick, and would sometimes weigh upwards of 60 lbs, though shardplate is probably more similar to jousting armor, which was far heavier as the wearer didnt really need to move, so we can say ~120 lbs (those poor horses, yikes, on top of their own jousting armor).  Rosharans are big, really big, so we'll be generous and scale up by a third.  The Rosharan equivalent plate armor would weigh around ~160 lbs.  Maybe some particularly and broad shouldered shardbearers had their plate grow larger for them nearing something that would in theory weigh 200 lbs

Coppermind has dead plate at 1400 lbs.  1400!!!  Unless the investiture infusing the armor is adding real, gravity affected mass, I can't see it being anything but the mass of the armor by way of it being much thicker in places.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

Magic aside, lets compare medieval plate armor to shardplate.  Medieval plate was usually 2-3mm thick, and would sometimes weigh upwards of 60 lbs, though shardplate is probably more similar to jousting armor, which was far heavier as the wearer didnt really need to move, so we can say ~120 lbs (those poor horses, yikes, on top of their own jousting armor).  Rosharans are big, really big, so we'll be generous and scale up by a third.  The Rosharan equivalent plate armor would weigh around ~160 lbs.  Maybe some particularly and broad shouldered shardbearers had their plate grow larger for them nearing something that would in theory weigh 200 lbs

Coppermind has dead plate at 1400 lbs.  1400!!!  Unless the investiture infusing the armor is adding real, gravity affected mass, I can't see it being anything but the mass of the armor by way of it being much thicker in places.

Not responding to back either side of the argument or anything. Just commenting specifically on where the extra weight could be coming in. 

 

Medieval Plate armor usually are pieces that are tied together that mostly covers the individual. There are still multiple locations and gaps due to the user needing to be able to move. For shardplate, all those places are fully covered with interlocking or overlapping scales. So no exposed seams. I could see the additional coverage adding weight. 

 

edit: also shardplate is not steel. It cracks and shattered, while steel bends and punctures. So judging the material's weight by something that functions differently from it I think is problematic. 

 

(a random example)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Pathfinder