Mid-Range Game 57: Helvegen

[Mat he/him]

32 minutes ago, JNV said:

Look Matrim was the one who initiated the Amanuensis vote in PMs soliciting TJ making the first move like that is not a great move as evil

Again, TJ’s Aman vote last cycle was completely unprompted by me. I had asked his stance on Aman earlier in the cycle but based on the answer I assumed an Aman vote wasn’t really the plan.

36 minutes ago, JNV said:

also going on to me earlier seemed kinda weird cause if Matrim is evil then they had the votes for you cause at least one of TJ The Unknown Novel is good and Orloks been gone they could have just left it at that and even if we consolidated there wouldnt be anything we could do

Precisely 

37 minutes ago, JNV said:

Matrim moved first Matrim was like 'oh I want Amanuensis dead' and TJ followed I said moving was bad as elim but following is viable  cause if the original target dies then oh well try again and if the new target dies then oh the good persons reads arent trustworthy just follow my lead sorta thing following the villagers vote seems strategic it hits all my buttons ok it hits every single one does this make sense to you or am I crazy

Tbh I have a problem following this (commas are underrated ), is this a response to the question of why you wrote a whole paragraph about why TJ’s actions don’t come from an elim and then still voted him anyway? Could you try to clarify this a bit?

[JNV]

3 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Tbh I have a problem following this (commas are underrated ), is this a response to the question of why you wrote a whole paragraph about why TJ’s actions don’t come from an elim and then still voted him anyway? Could you try to clarify this a bit?

Ok time to relearn the entirety of middle school grammar and use commas

4 hours ago, JNV said:

Matrim moved first Matrim was like 'oh I want Amanuensis dead' and TJ followed I said moving was bad as elim but following is viable  cause if the original target dies then oh well try again and if the new target dies then oh the good persons reads arent trustworthy just follow my lead sorta thing following the villagers vote seems strategic it hits all my buttons ok it hits every single one does this make sense to you or am I crazy

Matrim moved first. Matrim wanted Amanuensis dead, and TJ followed. I said moving was bad as elim, but following is viable. This is because if the original target (xinoehp) dies, then the two can just try again, and if the new target (Amanuensis) dies then the villager's reads are suspect and the elim can take command of the pair. The elim following the villager's vote seems strategic. It hits all of my buttons. Does this make sense to you, or am I crazy?

Trimmmed summary suggesting a transfer is bad for elims but following someone elses transfer would be a good strat

Matrim pelase vote TJ it makes so much sense and if Im wrong and youre evil it shouldnt matter so just give me this shalow victory please let me die on this hill bury me under the oak tree bring wilting geraniums for my grave in the heart of winter thanks much

[JNV]

Just now, Experience said:

So are you saying TJ or Mat looks bad? I'm confused lol

Ok you just gave me a heart attack wrong game Experience wrong game shoo shoo you scared me I thought I posted in the wrong thread for a moment there go away buddy youre not in this game 

[Experience he/him]

Just now, JNV said:

Ok you just gave me a heart attack wrong game Experience wrong game shoo shoo you scared me I thought I posted in the wrong thread for a moment there go away buddy youre not in this game 

Sorrrrry!!!

*disappears*

[Mat he/him]

6 minutes ago, JNV said:

Matrim moved first. Matrim wanted Amanuensis dead, and TJ followed.

I didn’t move first, though, at the end of last turn, TJ did. I assume we’re referring to different movements but I don’t know what else you’d be talking about.

6 minutes ago, JNV said:

The elim following the villager's vote seems strategic. It hits all of my buttons. Does this make sense to you, or am I crazy?

Yes, that makes sense. But again, TJ voted first, not me, and I didn’t follow so much as move where I felt the best now that it was an option. I guess you could be talking about 

hold up in the middle of the post but ima say this first and edit in the rest later-

@Experience you are not in this game :P.

Edit: ninja’d smh

Anyway

I guess you could be talking about TJ following my suspicion despite literally casting the first vote but I thought it was pretty clear that his reason for Aman was less about Aman and more about me- which sort of fits in your theory but if so then why add in the part about me being evil? To me this makes far less sense then TJ just having a moment of honest progression

Edited April 3, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Amanuensis he/him]

But Matrim also defended Bort C3, tried to save Bort from the yeet in favor of me/xino getting voted out (two villagers > elim), and has been v vocal about suspecting me, so it's not that odd for v!TJ to come in like "Yo I don't trust Mat or Aman and they both probably aren't V so might as well see if Mat is right about Aman and if he isn't then vote Mat out tomorrow."

It's just... ugh. TJ would need to be playing an exceptional elim game right now to pit V!Mat and I against each other like this. I can maybe accept that TJ is faking his indecision in a 3!elim!team world because he would know the game doesn't end tomorrow and he'd need to get someone else voted. But then I don't get why he didn't vote out Bort C3 for bus cred. To avoid the question of why he doesn't get NK'd?

The problem is if we are wrong about TJ and there are 2 elims, we just lose. Tbh at this point I care more about knowing what the heck is going on than winning, but I would still like a village win if possible, so I want to vote right today.

Gah now I know how Mailliw felt in QF59. I'm down to self vote honestly

ED1T:

@Matrim's Dice @JNV if you both are elims and this is some kind of theater to drive me insane then kudos, I applaud you

ED2T:

@Orlok Tsubodai aren't you supposed to be some kind of analsysis driven voice of reason. Haaalp

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[JNV]

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I guess you could be talking about TJ following my suspicion despite literally casting the first vote but I thought it was pretty clear that his reason for Aman was less about Aman and more about me- which sort of fits in your theory but if so then why add in the part about me being evil? To me this makes far less sense then TJ just having a moment of honest progression

Yeah thats what I meant and you said ti was weird how they didnt talk to you about it right right right but ok I guess you wont bite what a shame

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

The problem is if we are wrong about TJ and there are 2 elims, we just lose. Tbh at this point I care more about knowing what the heck is going on than winning, but I would still like a village win if possible, so I want to vote right today.

Ill be very honest its probably hopeless if TJ is evil cause Matrims not moving and Im probably not going to be on tomorrow cause life and school so.. 

Gosh I really suspect TJ but Ill vote Matrim and @|TJ| if there is any way you arent evil (and even if you are) please please vote Matrim

And TJ if you are evil and I was right all along I reserve the right to make incomprehensible noises of barely concealed outrage in the dead doc / aftermath cause I just dont know I really dont but I trust Amanuensis

And amanuensis if youve been secretly evil this whole time congrats good job respect 

[Amanuensis he/him]

I wish I was evil at this point  I'm not used to surviving until Lylo/Lylo-1 and nothing makes sense to me rn unless Orlok is a solo elim or on a team with TUN and we're all just villagers picking each other apart because the actual elims have been inactive

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Mat he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

The problem is if we are wrong about TJ and there are 2 elims, we just lose. Tbh at this point I care more about knowing what the heck is going on than winning, but I would still like a village win if possible, so I want to vote right today.

Elims do win at outnumber, not parity, so there's always a chance, technically. A 2-2 next cycle would have a 50% chance of continuing, but if the elims hit a Veteran today it could be 3-2 as well.

5 minutes ago, JNV said:

Yeah thats what I meant and you said ti was weird how they didnt talk to you about it right right right but ok I guess you wont bite what a shame

My whole other point though was that e!TJ has no reason to not just go for xino right there, it's infinitely easier. I was already the main person going after xino so he didn't need to vote Aman to set me up as a fall guy if that's what he wanted to do.

3 minutes ago, JNV said:

I trust Amanuensis

Why. Genuinely curious.

What I've seen this cycle is Aman and JNV both going after TJ to try to convince me to follow them (Aman in PMs, JNV in the thread) and once it became clear I'm sticking to my guns here both of them swapped over to going after me and trying to get TJ to follow them. That's... not how honest progression works :P.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Mat by the time JNV started going after TJ, I was already voting you

We do not make sense as an E/E pair.  We would not have such different beliefs about who the elim is.

I really feel like you are just an elim throwing whatever you can at the wall right now to see what sticks and what villagers you can convince

And what do you mean this game will end when elims outnumber villagers? Why the heck is it not parity?? @Kasimiris that true???

If that's actually true then indecision over. Matrim. We can still figure this out tomorrow in a 2!elim!world. Nothing else makes sense given the information I have right now barring an Orlok/TUN team.

Although I have no idea how overparity works in a game with thugs and no vote manipulation. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Mat he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

We do not make sense as an E/E pair.  We would not have such different beliefs about who the elim is.

You both first voted TJ and second voted me, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here since you seem to have exactly the same beliefs about who the elim is.

[Amanuensis he/him]

@|TJ| am I crazy bro or what

It's like Mat isn't even reading the same game

I have been on e!Mat over e!TJ since before JNV even posted. JNV has been supporting you and suspecting TJ while I have been doing the exact opposite.

Unlike you, TJ still has you in his PoE, as well as TUN. That shows villager open mindedness to me.

Meanwhile you just keep saying me/JNV and I know that's incorrect so being close minded at this juncture has to just be elim agenda.

I'm done engaging on this. I'm currently in the lead and that's fine. We are at an impasse and town can still win tomorrow with or without me, but I'm assuming that means it’ll come down to RNG so I guess let's hope that RNG favors the village.

And yes I'm not a Veteran. It was a bluff.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

16 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

And what do you mean this game will end when elims outnumber villagers? Why the heck is it not parity?? @Kasimiris that true???

It's true - I basically took the standard win con, I'm afraid. Further comments on that after the game.

16 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

[Color=red]Matrim[/color].

Bro, your vote is not showing, can you relog this for my benefit please?

Edited to add: Okay, nevermind @Amanuensis I see it now, you're good.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

I did fix the vote with an edit. RIP mobile posting. I should get out of bed

[Kasimir he/him]

For a reason I can't talk about, regular GMing services will be suspended for the next two hours.

I'm not going to be reachable on 17S for any rule clarifications, though I think you guys shouldn't require anything that urgent in that period. If there is something that absolutely requires my immediate attention, please DM me on Discord. Thank you.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

8 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Mat I literally cannot trust a single thing you say when you keep voting me

Really don't like this. 

13 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Allow me to refer you to my first post today

@The Unknown Novel

I do not believe in the solo!elim!TUN reality anymore, no. Thaid's death suggests a deeper understanding of the game state than I think you would have being completely alone. I have not ruled out that you could be on a team with Matrim or TJ, however, and I am infinitely more confident in one of them being an elim after yesterday. I do feel you voting me right now does make you look partnered with one of them since both have now tried to get me voted out, though.

If you are Village, can you tell me why you suspect me other than for voting you yesterday? We are very close to lylo now and cannot afford another mistake after Xino, so if you're not an elim, then us voting together is critical.

Can you also tell me what about JNV you suspect? They're my best bet for a Villager right now besides Orlok, who is currently inactive, although I acknowledge that I don't know how e!JNV operates and that they could be pocketing me (main reason for me town reading them is their pure tone + helping me catch up in the game). Was there something you saw that raised alarm bells for you?

Personally, I suspect Mat a whole lot more for the reasons I've posted above, and the fact he's trying to get people to vote JNV means that JNV is likely Village too. Can you tell me what about Mat and TJ have "slight v credences"? Mat did help vote Araris D1, that is true, but he also defended Bort when Orlok initially pushed him on C3 + tried to get people to stop voting Bort to vote me/Xino on C3 instead. As for TJ, he's not voted a known elim once, and was happy to vote you, Xino, or myself yesterday; in the event you are Village, that's 3 different Villagers TJ wanted dead. Neither of them have "v credences" in my eyes, so if you're seeing something I'm not, I would appreciate your perspective greatly.

I am willing to believe you are Village, TUN, because I do suspect one of, if not both of, Mat and TJ are elims. If you can help me figure out which one is for certain (in a 3 elim world) and vote them out today, then we win. If we are in a 4 elim world, then voting correctly is even more important, else we lose.

@Orlok Tsubodai we could also use your help too. There were too few votes yesterday and we cannot afford any more non-voters in a 2!elims!remaining world.

@|TJ| If you are not elims with Mat, then I ask you reconsider voting alongside him. At this point I am convinced Mat is either a solo elim or paired with you or TUN. I do not believe he genuinely thinks JNV is an elim if I'm Village. Just yesterday he was village reading JNV; this feels like a switch intended to appease me / get me to stop pushing Mat's yeet.

ED1T:

@The Unknown Novel for what it's worth, I have been consistently trying to get you involved in the game. If I was an elim, I would have stopped reminding you to post and let you die to the filter in order to make reaching parity easier. Please consider this if you are Village, as well as the "I might be a veteran" claim I did yesterday.

ED2T:

@JNV at this point I am more convinced that Mat is an elim than TJ. Can you run me through why you think TJ is more likely an elim than Mat? It's important that we vote together and vote correctly, so we need to figure this out.

The biggest problem I have with you is you're consistently mild elim tone to me, but every now and again you say very villagery things, and other times you say super elimmy things.

11 hours ago, |TJ| said:

;-; I am so confused. 

This doesn't make sense with xino flipping village? Why would 2 elims hammer to save a villager? And you'd be considering yourself as village, so why would two elims hammer on a villager to protect over another villager?

How have you gone from this -

to this? 

Aman, bro, it feels like you're wanting to win players over to your side and when you're trying to convince one player you suspect someone else, and when you want to convince the said suspect, you suspect some other player.

No strong reasons to prefer you over TUN actually. Mainly, I didn't feel comfortable CC-ing in this stage of the game + TUN mentioned they were still catching up, so wanted to give them a chance to post some matter of substance. If you're asking why I voted along my suspect, it's because your death would have given me a very clear idea of his alignment. The reverse is also true i.e. his death would give a good idea of your alignment, but given how the response was to Mat elimination was in C3, I just realized it was futile. 

sigh, there was no one else, there was just me >> and now I'm confused again. why do I feel like e!you is trying to turn me and v!mat against each other -.-

+1 to this. @JNV, you go on to explain it wouldn't make sense for me to be an elim and then go ahead and vote for me anyway?

Contradictory, Aman :/

You've slyly omitted Mat from my list, I see :P. Besides, do you have problem with my PoE? If I were to ask you to give a 4-member PoE last cycle, which 4 names would you have given me? 

I'm reaaaally don't wanna include JNV in the PoE, because that's just gonna give me headache. It's still between Aman, TUN and outside chance of Mat for me. If it's a three-member team, I predict the last member to be a Veteran, which fits well with Aman. TUN an outside chance for this because Kas likes to teach the village a lesson in distribution each game he manages, and if this game's lesson is 'don't be afraid to CC inactives', e!Veteran!TUN matches that. :P. 

Today, JNV isn't my target, but I believe that JNV is e/e with Aman, and JNV didn't check the doc before posting, so they went after you, but then noticed Aman in thread or Aman mentioned something in the doc that made JNV switch their guns to TJ so the elims could be voting together and maybe not have Aman be guaranteed dead.

5 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Again, TJ’s Aman vote last cycle was completely unprompted by me. I had asked his stance on Aman earlier in the cycle but based on the answer I assumed an Aman vote wasn’t really the plan.

Precisely 

Tbh I have a problem following this (commas are underrated ), is this a response to the question of why you wrote a whole paragraph about why TJ’s actions don’t come from an elim and then still voted him anyway? Could you try to clarify this a bit?

Periods too. Commas help more, but periods are a life saver.

51 minutes ago, JNV said:

Yeah thats what I meant and you said ti was weird how they didnt talk to you about it right right right but ok I guess you wont bite what a shame

Ill be very honest its probably hopeless if TJ is evil cause Matrims not moving and Im probably not going to be on tomorrow cause life and school so.. 

Gosh I really suspect TJ but Ill vote Matrim and @|TJ| if there is any way you arent evil (and even if you are) please please vote Matrim

And TJ if you are evil and I was right all along I reserve the right to make incomprehensible noises of barely concealed outrage in the dead doc / aftermath cause I just dont know I really dont but I trust Amanuensis

And amanuensis if youve been secretly evil this whole time congrats good job respect 

The "(and even if you are)" feels very weird and oddly performative. 

44 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Elims do win at outnumber, not parity, so there's always a chance, technically. A 2-2 next cycle would have a 50% chance of continuing, but if the elims hit a Veteran today it could be 3-2 as well.

My whole other point though was that e!TJ has no reason to not just go for xino right there, it's infinitely easier. I was already the main person going after xino so he didn't need to vote Aman to set me up as a fall guy if that's what he wanted to do.

Why. Genuinely curious.

What I've seen this cycle is Aman and JNV both going after TJ to try to convince me to follow them (Aman in PMs, JNV in the thread) and once it became clear I'm sticking to my guns here both of them swapped over to going after me and trying to get TJ to follow them. That's... not how honest progression works :P.

TJ is pretty firmly village in my mind as well. 

That’s close to what I've seen, but Aman hasn't really gone for TJ, I think JNV just missed their cue and went after TJ, only to realize Aman was too firmly set in voting you, so decided to switch.

Conclusion:

TJ good.

If Aman somehow good, Mat bad.

If Aman bad, JNV bad.

If Orlok bad, anger.

[Amanuensis he/him]

In the off chance that literally everyone who has posted today is village, I'm willing to vote Orlok instead. I still think he could have bussed Bort and nothing he's done since then has led me to believe otherwise.

[Mat he/him]

27 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Unlike you, TJ still has you in his PoE, as well as TUN. That shows villager open mindedness to me.

Meanwhile you just keep saying me/JNV and I know that's incorrect so being close minded at this juncture has to just be elim agenda

You're right, sorry I didn't make this more clear when I worked it out in my head- I guess I never really posted it into the thread so here:

[Aman, JNV, TJ, Orlok, TUN]

I'm taking out Orlok due to D1 and Bort. If I took out TJ due to reasons I already articulated many times it would leave me with you, JNV, and TUN, and you don't work with TUN but I think you work with JNV- whether your opinions this cycle are the same or different than JNV doesn't matter, elim teammates can do both and you are both voting on the same train- I'd be committed to e!JNV which is why I switched to JNV earlier. But no one followed me and I'd rather vote you over TJ (or me, now :P)

If I didn't take out TJ, he basically only works with TUN because neither you nor JNV have incentive to vote him earlier in the cycle if you're teamed with him. There's no reason for you or JNV to distance and risk me jumping on it.

So I'm essentially down to

• Aman/JNV
• JNV/TUN
• TJ/TUN

As the viable 2p teams left. I dislike the thought of voting someone with the low content level of TUN this close to lylo, and I tried to vote JNV but that didn't go anywhere. From my PoV I've seen you and JNV vote similarly and back each other up, so that's what makes the most sense to me right now.

I hope that makes my thought process more clear for why I appear to be set on only one option. I think if JNV became an option again this turn I would still go there but as it is, I'm voting you.

...Ninja'd by TUN, I really don't like how his post mirrors my thoughts exactly I feel like that shouldn't be happening >>

[Amanuensis he/him]

If it really is TUN/Orlok I reserve the right to say I told you so when the game is over xD

[Mat he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

In the off chance that literally everyone who has posted today is village, I'm willing to vote Orlok instead. I still think he could have bussed Bort and nothing he's done since then has led me to believe otherwise.

What is your goal with this? Surely you don't think that Orlok has any chance of being exed today.

Ok, here. Your posts in the last hour and random voting have read more like frustrated village than anything else, how would you feel about voting JNV today? TUN? I'm unlikely to vote TUN but his last post has increased my paranoia of one of the teams with him in it significantly.

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

If it really is TUN/Orlok I reserve the right to say I told you so when the game is over xD

If you're village you already have that right until the end of time :P.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I've been paranoid of Orlok since C3 and even told Stick before Bort flipped that his case on Bort looked pre-planned, which led me to believe Orlok's intention with it was to pull a QF59. He's been active enough to submit kills but not active enough to respond to any of the questions I've asked him, which naturally makes me think he is dodging me on purpose. I would not be surprised if he's hoping for villager paranoia to get me removed from the game. Plus, Orlok works on a team with you Mat, who no one else but JNV is willing to vote over me (you all can't be elims), plus Orlok works on a team with TUN (who I've also had in my poe for ages), plus Orlok works as a solo elim. What is my goal? The same goal it's always been; to vote out the elims. And right now I don't know what else to believe. If you, TJ, JNV, and I are all Village, then it just has to be Orlok/TUN. And I really doubt JNV or TJ are elims, so no, I'm not going to vote there today. I would rather get voted out myself than compromise on voting players I believe are Village.

<Orlok, TUN, Mat> is my poe today and that's final. If y'all want to vote out JNV because you think they're partnered with me, then I will neither participate, nor will I stop you. Maybe they have pocketed me but they seem to be the only person listening to me and when everyone else is against me then I don't even care if it's a pocket.

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

If y'all want to vote out JNV because you think they're partnered with me, then I will neither participate, nor will I stop you.

If I vote out JNV, if isn't because I think they're partnered with you, it's because they work with the most people as a partner. I want to make that clear. If the only reason I was considering JNV was because I think they're your partner, I wouldn't be considering it, I'd just be set on you.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Gah.

I'm sorry, but I'm serious that I would rather get voted out myself than compromise on voting out someone that I read as Village. I can accept losing and I can accept being wrong about JNV if you are right, but I will never vote a player I believe is Village just to save myself. It's selfish to do that and I would rather die being right and lose than live being right but caving on my convictions and still lose. 

Knowing that the elim win con is overparity, I don't really care about fighting to live anymore. I just hope that the Village can pull out the win despite the odds tomorrow, and will have to trust that removing the Aman paranoia from the equation will be enough to get people on the right track again.

I firmly believe in the last elim / last two elims being in my poe. I know confirmed good isn't confirmed right, but seriously take my beliefs into account when I'm dead.

In a solo elim world, TJ could technically still be the elim; he might be claiming to be indecisive in order to get either Mat or me voted tomorrow after V/V thunderdoming all day. He could even be on a team with Orlok since he notified him for help in deciding which side of ours to take.

Just please do not vote JNV tomorrow >:( he is tonally as obv!Town as Xino was D1 imo and I have to trust my gut on him.

[Mat he/him]

Now I just want to vote TUN

[Amanuensis he/him]

IMO TUN saying I have micro villager moments and micro elim moments is kind of how I feel about him, which is the ironic part xD like a few things he said gave me the impression he's seriously considered me being Village, but the fact he's pushing JNV/me is what I expect an elim to want right now, so I don't know how I can trust he's got the village's intentions in mind

Which is kind of why I am voting Orlok right now. I'm back to feeling like everyone talking is more Village than the person not talking, and he is in my PoE anyway so why not?

The problem is I'm not sold on you being village after tunneling me for so long, so every proposal you make inherently makes me want to do the opposite xD

I kinda wish Araris didn't get voted D1 and the fang went through tbh, I feel like everything has been utter chaos since xD