Arcanist implications of SP#3

[+Oltux72 he/him]

What we know and can conclude

• Invested entities turning themselves into fabrials is not limited to Roshar
• we have a new system of Initiation. You are put into "office" by general acclamation
• Invested entities feeding on emotions and thoughts is not limited to Roshar
• what the Midnight Mother can do is not limited to Roshar

totally new stuff

• the hions

partially understandable stuff

• the nightmares are more or less what the Midnight Mother does, but what generates them
• the paintings, are they basically the same thing as Aons or are they visual Commands?
• the painters give commands to nightmares, but how do you become a painter

I must say Painter's planet is more interesting, as what Yumi does, let's be honest, is basically a stronger version of what Rock or Cord can do. The hions are really new stuff.

[Frustration he/him]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

what the Midnight Mother can do is not limited to Roshar

Sounds like the Night Aether can still do that as well.

 

Something to ask is how powerful can spirit objects be, and if multiple spirits can be made into one object.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

Duality seems to be a major motif for both planets and magic systems:

• hion lines have two colors (teal & fuchsia), combining them can be used to generate heat and possibly power other things
• primal spirits are bicolor (blue & orange) and many fabrials made of them seem to be paired
• Painter's world is mostly uninhabitable because of the darkness/shroud, while for Yumi's world similar situation is caused by light/heat

Also, there seem to be many parallels between the magic systems and the Order of Lightweavers on Roshar:

• both magic systems we see on the planets are pretty much based on art, which is a Lightweaver thing
• convincing a primal spirit to become a fabrial and transforming a nightmare bear some resemblance to Soulcasting
• primal spirits are attracted to the act of creation, much as creationspren are. The shroud acts very similar to Re-Shephir
• the Essence associated with Lightweavers is blood: the shroud is compared to it ('I watched it rain the blood of a dying god'), hion lines are explicitly compared to blood vessels ('they were the arteries and veins of Kilahito') and the reddish light of sun on Yumi's world makes everything look 'like the result of a bloody massacre'

Edited March 17, 2022 by KandraAllomancer

[Frustration he/him]

I had a thought, could a painter make a nightmare more dangerous if they wanted to?

[Inky]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• what the Midnight Mother can do is not limited to Roshar

I would wait a bit before jumping to this conclusion, the immediate aesthetics of the Nightmares and the Midnight Essence are similar, but in practicality they don't seem to work very similarly at all. It's possible that they (and the Midnight Aether?) tap into some kind of similar framework for a type of entity in the Cosmere, though. 

[HSuperLee he/him]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I had a thought, could a painter make a nightmare more dangerous if they wanted to?

I'm going to say yes. That's probably part of why they need so much mental training, since otherwise they might accidentally reinforce and thus accelerate the nightmare's stabilization.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Yumi was put into office because of an "omen", and we don't know how painter earned his position. I think this goes against your second point, Oltux, but I may be misinterpreting things.

[teknopathetic he/him]

It seems like these two worlds were split apart. One is so bright and the other so dark. We also know the languages are related. So maybe 1500 years ago someone split the entire planet thus making two new ones that were thrown into chaos? Or, at least the dark world was thrown into chaos. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

13 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It seems like these two worlds were split apart. One is so bright and the other so dark. We also know the languages are related. So maybe 1500 years ago someone split the entire planet thus making two new ones that were thrown into chaos? Or, at least the dark world was thrown into chaos. 

Love this idea, but physics. I think it would put extreme strain on both halves, and that would mean only a shard could do it. Maybe that is how virtuosity splintered.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

The binding of nightmares feels very related to some things on Roshar. Painting them seems to make them be fixed into something else - it reminded me of how if you measure a flamespren it can't change anymore. If I draw a nightmare as something benign, and cognitively am fixing it that way - it can't become dangerous anymore. And we've seen with Shallan's drawings how art can put you close to the cognitive realm like when she is drawing the cryptics that are following her.

Conversely, as others have mentioned, what Yumi does seems a good bit like soulcasting. Although everything seems to have two parts when you do it: could the two planets really be one that split in this same way - one giant spirit?

Finally, the Fibonacci sequence kept on coming up - first with the soap, and later Hoid even lampshades something about you might have another name for this series of numbers. That and the Golden ratio show up in nature patterns a lot and are aesthetically pleasing so it fits with Virtuosity and the theming here. Maybe we'll get some nice fractals too.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

13 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Finally, the Fibonacci sequence kept on coming up - first with the soap, and later Hoid even lampshades something about you might have another name for this series of numbers. That and the Golden ratio show up in nature patterns a lot and are aesthetically pleasing so it fits with Virtuosity and the theming here. Maybe we'll get some nice fractals too.

Come to think of it, Virtuosity is probably the part of Adonalsium responsible for designing the continent of Roshar

[iceblade44 he/him]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What we know and can conclude

• Invested entities turning themselves into fabrials is not limited to Roshar
• we have a new system of Initiation. You are put into "office" by general acclamation
• Invested entities feeding on emotions and thoughts is not limited to Roshar
• what the Midnight Mother can do is not limited to Roshar

totally new stuff

• the hions

partially understandable stuff

• the nightmares are more or less what the Midnight Mother does, but what generates them
• the paintings, are they basically the same thing as Aons or are they visual Commands?
• the painters give commands to nightmares, but how do you become a painter

I must say Painter's planet is more interesting, as what Yumi does, let's be honest, is basically a stronger version of what Rock or Cord can do. The hions are really new stuff.

I don't agree on Yumi's magic. Hoid implies that what she can get spirits to create is more to it then what they use on the planet. While its similar to fabrial, only so far of it being the creation of magic items. I feel there is more upperlimit to it then what we see.

[DiePie]

Painters seem to be a job that anyone (with the right skills) can do, thus the comparison to teachers, policemen, etc.

[apepi]

I have a feeling that both of their magic systems could be using using their identity.

Talks of losing oneself, talking something from themselves, feeling tired, and going unconscious.

We also see painter getting cold after using his magic, needing 'warmth'. Generally, the characters that have felt warmth means that they were closer to the spiritual realm, so this could mean that he is farther away from it than normal.

My idea is they could be somewhat similar to Feruchemy, where they use a piece of themselves to fuel their art, instead of Stormlight or etc.

[teknopathetic he/him]

So do we think Nightmares are anything like Shades? We know a shard was splintered near both worlds, and then we see these demonic forces destroying the words nearby. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

SO we think Nightmares are anything like Shades? We know a shard was splintered near both worlds, and then we see these demonic forces destroying the words nearby. 

The big counter examples are Sel and Roshar.

[iceblade44 he/him]

Nightmares are more in the way of Cognitive predators from First of the Sun mixed with the Midnight Essence. 

They could be cognitive shadows like shades but if so they operate very differently 

[Johnny Silverlight]

12 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

So do we think Nightmares are anything like Shades? We know a shard was splintered near both worlds, and then we see these demonic forces destroying the words nearby. 

The main difference is that the Nightmares are clearly being generated by the Shroud, while Shades definitely existed on Threnody before the appearance of the Evil. The people on Threnody knew about the continent where the Shades reside before the Evil appeared, which is why they named that continent Hell. They only fled to Hell because it was the only other known continent on their world, and the Shades were seen as a much lesser threat than the Evil.

[mathiau he/him]

21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

totally new stuff

• the hions

Probably just Virtuosity's light. Or more likely light and anti-light since they create heat when they touch

14 hours ago, apepi said:

My idea is they could be somewhat similar to Feruchemy, where they use a piece of themselves to fuel their art, instead of Stormlight or etc.

Does look end-negative if that's what you mean

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

So do we think Nightmares are anything like Shades? We know a shard was splintered near both worlds, and then we see these demonic forces destroying the words nearby. 

It's likely both are a part of the magic system that got partially broken when its Shard died

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

I had a thought, could a painter make a nightmare more dangerous if they wanted to?

I think they could probably do far more than that, grant them a personality for example

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Probably just Virtuosity's light. Or more likely light and anti-light since they create heat when they touch

But they don't. There is an "element" incorporated in the bowl. Otherwise the whole bar would heat up.

Yes, it is probably made of Investiture. But that is not the whole story, as it does not dissipate as Stormlight would, or fall down under the influence of gravity as a god metal would. Technically we do not know whether it is even solid. The busses using it may carry yet another "element".
What it resembles most is Aons as drawn into the air by an Elantrian or the Investiture pipeline the Ire used.

[mathiau he/him]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But they don't. There is an "element" incorporated in the bowl. Otherwise the whole bar would heat up.

I don't see why

Quote

Yes, it is probably made of Investiture. But that is not the whole story, as it does not dissipate as Stormlight would, or fall down under the influence of gravity as a god metal would. Technically we do not know whether it is even solid. The busses using it may carry yet another "element".

Neither do Breaths

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 18.03.2022 at 5:03 AM, teknopathetic said:

So do we think Nightmares are anything like Shades? We know a shard was splintered near both worlds, and then we see these demonic forces destroying the words nearby. 

On 18.03.2022 at 2:35 PM, iceblade44 said:

Nightmares are more in the way of Cognitive predators from First of the Sun mixed with the Midnight Essence. 

They could be cognitive shadows like shades but if so they operate very differently 

On 18.03.2022 at 5:45 PM, Johnny Silverlight said:

The main difference is that the Nightmares are clearly being generated by the Shroud, while Shades definitely existed on Threnody before the appearance of the Evil. The people on Threnody knew about the continent where the Shades reside before the Evil appeared, which is why they named that continent Hell. They only fled to Hell because it was the only other known continent on their world, and the Shades were seen as a much lesser threat than the Evil.

Im with @teknopathetic Nightmares are very similar to Shades - is heavily implied that they are made from people during "rain of God's blood". They are not the same, but are very similar as they are also Cognitive Shadows created via corruption of innate Investiture. Also, like Shades, Nightmares are Pulled to the human minds (Shades are pulled by certain actions, but they also target human minds when provoked).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 18.3.2022 at 7:41 PM, mathiau said:

I don't see why

It says so right in the text:

Quote

The small room was lit by a small hanging chandelier. If you touch opposite lines of hion to either side of a piece of metal, you can make it heat up. From there, you were just a little sideways skip away from the incandescent bulb.

Metal is special in the Cosmere. I would hazard a guess that they use brass to generate heat. Touching the hion in itself is unlikely to do that. They put them inside a restaurant without much safety restraints.

On 18.3.2022 at 7:41 PM, mathiau said:

Neither do Breaths

Well, no. Breaths, if left more than a few seconds left outside a carrier, will evaporate. We saw that reported about people with a lot of Breaths dieing. Breath is special in its capacity to stay in people and stuff, but not otherwise.

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

It says so right in the text:

Metal is special in the Cosmere. I would hazard a guess that they use brass to generate heat. Touching the hion in itself is unlikely to do that. They put them inside a restaurant without much safety restraints.

If it required brass, Hoid would have said it required brass. It's more likely it work with all metals, most likely because they're good heat conductors.

Also, if it was linked to a specific metal, it'd be Electrum. Brass storing heat and Electrum storing determination was a mixup.

Quote

Well, no. Breaths, if left more than a few seconds left outside a carrier, will evaporate. We saw that reported about people with a lot of Breaths dieing. Breath is special in its capacity to stay in people and stuff, but not otherwise.

Like the Mists then