unsealed breaths?

[HippoPhileus he/him]

Could you somehow unkey breaths? So if you put 50 breaths into an object could they somehow become unkeyed so that any person could pick them up?

 

Edit:

I just realized we've seen something like this in Rhythm of War. Taravodium steals or at least destroys some of Hoid's Breath. Thinking of this reminded me of when we saw Vasher tell a girl the Command to give away part of a Breath (Warbreaker). So since we know it is possible, the only question would be how? What could this Command be?

Edited March 28, 2022 by HippoPhileus

[HSuperLee he/him]

Breaths are naturally very willing to give up their identity, which is how they are transferred from person to person. Thus, I suspect there probably are ways to phrase commands or to hold intents that would allow the Breaths to be recovered by anyone.

[HippoPhileus he/him]

2 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Breaths are naturally very willing to give up their identity, which is how they are transferred from person to person. Thus, I suspect there probably are ways to phrase commands or to hold intents that would allow the Breaths to be recovered by anyone.

That would make sense

[+ShardlessVessel]

10 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

Could you somehow unseal breaths?

I wouldn't call that "unsealing". Breaths aren't sealed in the first place, as you don't need to be specially Invested to use them. I think "unkeyed" would be a more appropriate term in this case.

Pedantry aside, I believe this should be possible. The obvious answer is aluminum Feruchemy; assuming Breaths are keyed by Identity, like metalminds, then by filling an aluminum-mind at the same time that you Awaken an object, it should be possible for another person to draw them out.

That said, I also think it should be possible to do with BioChroma alone. Breath can do more than just Awakening, as we've seen it mess with memories. Brandon has implied that it can do more than that, and I believe unkeying Breaths should be possible with the correct Command, or perhaps by wording a regular Command in a specific way.

[HippoPhileus he/him]

2 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I wouldn't call that "unsealing". Breaths aren't sealed in the first place, as you don't need to be specially Invested to use them. I think "unkeyed" would be a more appropriate term in this case.

Pedantry aside, I believe this should be possible. The obvious answer is aluminum Feruchemy; assuming Breaths are keyed by Identity, like metalminds, then by filling an aluminum-mind at the same time that you Awaken an object, it should be possible for another person to draw them out.

That said, I also think it should be possible to do with BioChroma alone. Breath can do more than just Awakening, as we've seen it mess with memories. Brandon has implied that it can do more than that, and I believe unkeying Breaths should be possible with the correct Command, or perhaps by wording a regular Command in a specific way.

First of all, looking at the definitions of "unsealed" and "unkeyed," I think "unsealed" is the better term:

An unkeyed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone with the relevant Feruchemical ability can access. Anyone in the Cosmere can use Breaths if they are given, not just those born on Nalthis.

An unsealed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone can access. Breaths are sealed, in a way. If you grant all or part of your Breath to an object, only you can draw them back out. Therefore, the Breaths are connected to your Identity. With all this in mind, this seems like the more accurate term.

 

But terminology aside, I just realized we've seen something like this in Rhythm of War. Taravodium steals or at least destroys some of Hoid's Breath. Thinking of this reminded me of when we saw Vasher tell a girl the Command to give away part of a Breath. So since we know it is possible, the only question would be how? I think a Command would be the easiest, but I agree with all of your observations.

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

First of all, looking at the definitions of "unsealed" and "unkeyed," I think "unsealed" is the better term:

An unkeyed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone with the relevant Feruchemical ability can access. Anyone in the Cosmere can use Breaths if they are given, not just those born on Nalthis.

An unsealed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone can access. Breaths are sealed, in a way. If you grant all or part of your Breath to an object, only you can draw them back out. Therefore, the Breaths are connected to your Identity. With all this in mind, this seems like the more accurate term.

Unsealed metalminds don't exist beyond Nicrosil ones. (And even those might have something fishy going on with them.)

[HippoPhileus he/him]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Unsealed metalminds don't exist beyond Nicrosil ones. (And even those might have something fishy going on with them.)

I was going off of what the coppermind said *shrugs*

[+ShardlessVessel]

5 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

First of all, looking at the definitions of "unsealed" and "unkeyed," I think "unsealed" is the better term:

An unkeyed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone with the relevant Feruchemical ability can access. Anyone in the Cosmere can use Breaths if they are given, not just those born on Nalthis.

An unsealed metalmind is a special kind of metalmind that anyone can access. Breaths are sealed, in a way. If you grant all or part of your Breath to an object, only you can draw them back out. Therefore, the Breaths are connected to your Identity. With all this in mind, this seems like the more accurate term.

I disagree, but that's because I see this differently from you, I think.

There are two requirements for using a metalmind: Identity and Investiture. If you are a Feruchemist, you can use any metalminds that are compatible with your own Identity. If you are not a Feruchemist, you cannot use metalminds at all.

An unkeyed metalmind lets anyone that already has the ability to use Feruchemy access it, regardless of Identity. An unsealed metalmind is an unkeyed metalmind that lets anyone use it, regardless of whether they have the correct innate Investiture or not.

Anyone can use Breaths. In this sense, they are already unsealed. However, when they are used for Awakening, Breaths become keyed.

But again, we can see this differently. All terminology is arbitrary, anyway.

14 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

Thinking of this reminded me of when we saw Vasher tell a girl the Command to give away part of a Breath.

I don't think this is quite the same thing. Vasher told the girl a Command so that she could erase her own memories.

 

[HippoPhileus he/him]

2 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

There are two requirements for using a metalmind: Identity and Investiture. If you are a Feruchemist, you can use any metalminds that are compatible with your own Identity. If you are not a Feruchemist, you cannot use metalminds at all.

An unkeyed metalmind lets anyone that already has the ability to use Feruchemy access it, regardless of Identity. An unsealed metalmind is an unkeyed metalmind that lets anyone use it, regardless of whether they have the correct innate Investiture or not.

Anyone can use Breaths. In this sense, they are already unsealed. However, when they are used for Awakening, Breaths become keyed.

When you put it that way, I think I agree with you.

2 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I don't think this is quite the same thing. Vasher told the girl a Command so that she could erase her own memories.

Really? I thought she lost part of a Breath. I assumed she gave it to Vasher. If not, what did she do with that partial Breath?

[NameIess]

Just now, HippoPhileus said:

I was going off of what the coppermind said *shrugs*

Hm. I'd say that both terms are accurate, although 'unkeyed' seems more so to me. 'unkeyed' is an accurate description of the breaths, while 'unsealed' refers to the effect that the investiture being unkeyed. And unlike with medallions, achieving that effect doesn't require any extra finagling compared to unkeying it.

[Stormblessed0421 he/him]

Are Breaths really innately unsealed, though? The only non-Nalthian we've seen use Breaths so far (correct me if I'm wrong) is Hoid, and he's sort of his own category. Could it be that all native Nalthians have the spiritual capacity to use Breaths in their sDNA from birth? The fact that the Shard is Endowment would make it make sense  that native Nalthians have some sort of extra something.

[+ShardlessVessel]

4 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

Really? I thought she lost part of a Breath. I assumed she gave it to Vasher. If not, what did she do with that partial Breath?

Not exactly; here's a quote from my Kindle copy:

Quote

The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly.

It's somewhat ambiguous what happened here. Did the girl lose Breath, or did her Breath simply weaken for a moment before bouncing back to normal?

I still don't think this would be "unkeying" a Breath if the girl had transferred it to Vasher, as that is a basic BioChroma ability ("My Breath to yours, my life become yours"). Unkeying would be if the girl had put some Breaths into a rope and then Vasher took those Breaths from the rope.

[+ShardlessVessel]

7 minutes ago, Stormblessed0421 said:

Are Breaths really innately unsealed, though? The only non-Nalthian we've seen use Breaths so far (correct me if I'm wrong) is Hoid, and he's sort of his own category. Could it be that all native Nalthians have the spiritual capacity to use Breaths in their sDNA from birth? The fact that the Shard is Endowment would make it make sense  that native Nalthians have some sort of extra something.

On the one hand..

Quote

Questioner

Someone who has Breath Investiture, can they give Breath to somebody who doesn't, so like somebody from Scadrial, or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would the Scadrian be able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You have seen people from off-planet who have Breath before.

Moderator

Or, indeed, perfect pitch?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhuh. *laughter* And are making use of it in a variety of ways.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

On the other...

Quote

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

What happens when non-Nalthians come to Nalthis.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They cannot use their own soul to Awaken but could do so with obtained Breath.

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

So anyone could start Awakening once they received Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You would probably have to jump through some hoops to Awaken (talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets), but anyone can benefit from a Breath. Essentially said "it's not that easy!"

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

Not as clear as I thought. I'll go with "yes, anyone can use it" for now.

[Stormblessed0421 he/him]

Oh, ok, I hadn't seen that WoB! Ok, so essentially, anyone can have Breaths and benefit from the effects of simply having them, but it's harder for anyone to use them for Awakening. Got it.