[Stormlight 5] The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory: The Official Stormfaker's Support Group

[SpiritOfWrath he/him/Your Majesty]

We know what the words the real stormfather needed were. 
Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before destination. 
So either the Stormfather is evil, or someone else is talking to Gavilar.

Plus, the Stormfather lied. We know that going against the intent of a Shard is lethal to the Vessel, why should it be differ for fractions of a Shard? The Stormfather is the biggest fraction of Honors investiture, and I don’t think extensive plotting and lying is not very honorable (Although Syl, imitating an voidspren, and Pattern, lying to the Honorspren, have both lied). We can extrapolate that this change in personality is not bc of Gavilar, because the voice implies that it was plotting before it decided to chose Gavilar.

[alder24]

WaT ch 16:

Quote

What else did Cultivation tell you?

Just that the Spiritual Realm has answers, Dalinar said. That I can get there with my powers. That I should seek the truths of history, and of Honor.

The Stormfather rumbled, sounding annoyed by this.

What? Dalinar asked.

I’ve shown you what you need, he replied. Too much more is dangerous.

Wait, Dalinar thought. There is more? Could I see how the Heralds were chosen? How people came to Roshar? Could I see what caused Honor to die?

The Stormfather rumbled softly, and sounded even angrier.

Cultivation indicated I should seek these answers, Dalinar said.

I did not think she would interfere except in her usual way, the Stormfather said. That of making tiny nudges that require decades to mature. I will have to think on it. Her suggestion is dangerous, Dalinar. Too dangerous. Take care.

With that, the Stormfather turned his attention elsewhere. The shimmering to the air vanished, and the spren’s presence retreated to a faint awareness in the very back of his mind.

The Stormfather hid more visions from Dalinar, he rage-quitted angry at Cultivation for exposing the truth, he even lied to Dalinar in OB ch 28 saying he can't show him more visions. It really looks like Cultivation messed up whatever plans the Stormfather had - or maybe he just didn't want to be caught lying. The Stormfather can lie, can omit stuff from Dalinar, can have ulterior motives and can be just as suspicious as Gavilar's Stormfather. For me this is the final nail in the coffin of the Stormfaker theory. The Stormfather can't be trusted, he was the Stormfaker all along! 

Quote

“Do you have any more visions of Nohadon?” Dalinar asked the Stormfather, hopeful.
I have shown you all that was created for you to see, the Stormfather said. I can show no more.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think there is a difference. The visions seem exact, or "created", as sets of specific moments that relay the important information to the receiver. What Cultivation is suggesting is diving into the space they come from, to the Spiritual Realm, to find extra information. Honor didn't create or organize those other sights, much like Honor didn't organize the visions of Tien that Dalinar gave to Kaladin - he'd be essentially lost in a realm where space and time are matters of perception. Dangerous indeed. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

I think there is a difference. The visions seem exact, or "created", as sets of specific moments that relay the important information to the receiver. What Cultivation is suggesting is diving into the space they come from, to the Spiritual Realm, to find extra information. Honor didn't create or organize those other sights, much like Honor didn't organize the visions of Tien that Dalinar gave to Kaladin - he'd be essentially lost in a realm where space and time are matters of perception. Dangerous indeed. 

I think it's more a half-truth than a lie as well, but it's still a deception, which we also see him try to pull when pretending to Dalinar he doesn't know where the Heralds are, so Honor doesn't force him to honesty or anything.

Edit: Oh wait, didn't read the quote closely enough, the "I can show no more" part might be an outright lie.

Edited yesterday at 12:03 AM by LewsTherinTelescope

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's more a half-truth than a lie as well, but it's still a deception, which we also see him try to pull when pretending to Dalinar he doesn't know where the Heralds are, so Honor doesn't force him to honesty or anything.

Edit: Oh wait, didn't read the quote closely enough, the "I can show no more" part might be an outright lie.

Definitiely a lie of omission, at minimum.

It might be technically true, where it’s Dalinar who has the power to delve into the Spiritual Realm and not the Stormfather, thus both no visions created by Tanavast remain and there are no more that the Stormfather could show on his own. (And Dalinar might not have been capable of it at that point of OB, as a fairly inexperienced 2nd Oath Bondsmith.)

Hard to tell if it’s Fey Logic or Stormfakery or something else. I do wonder if Stormfather/faker is trying to keep Honor away from Dalinar, or if this is simply another layer of secrets.

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Definitiely a lie of omission, at minimum.

It might be technically true, where it’s Dalinar who has the power to delve into the Spiritual Realm and not the Stormfather, thus both no visions created by Tanavast remain and there are no more that the Stormfather could show on his own. (And Dalinar might not have been capable of it at that point of OB, as a fairly inexperienced 2nd Oath Bondsmith.)

Hard to tell if it’s Fey Logic or Stormfakery or something else. I do wonder if Stormfather/faker is trying to keep Honor away from Dalinar, or if this is simply another layer of secrets.

Yeah - I would also say that it may be that the Stormfather is bound by his nature or some agreement, etc that he will not show more to Dalinar.  I think we also have to keep that last part in context of the first part.  "I can show you no more" does not necessarily mean "I literally do not have the capability to show you anything more."  In the context of "I've shown you all that was created for you to see" it could imply "There is something more I have the capability to show you, but Honor commanded me not to so I won't."

At least for me - I don't think the Stormfather is being suspicious or malicious in holding this information back.  I think it's something that without context and more knowledge from Dalinar, could be misleading and cause major problems.  It's Cultivation's nature to manipulate people by withholding (or granting) information to get them to do what she wants.  I think she's intentionally trying to stir up chaos here because her plan to create a tame Odium failed.  Cultivation is way more suspicious to me than the Stormfather.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah - I would also say that it may be that the Stormfather is bound by his nature or some agreement, etc that he will not show more to Dalinar. 

He doesn't seem unable in the latest chapters, just unwilling. He refers to it as "dangerous" and says he'll need to think about it, not just a flat no like he gave before.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Stormfather can't be trusted, he was the Stormfaker all along! 

I happily concede Though I'll say Stormfather can be trusted up to a point, he is less malevolent manipulator and more someone who was failed by men again and again (if e.g. also Sunmaker received the visions).

No suprise he no longer trust men with visions he saw lead them astray repeatedly.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Quote

“Do you have any more visions of Nohadon?” Dalinar asked the Stormfather, hopeful.
I have shown you all that was created for you to see, the Stormfather said. I can show no more.

This can still be true though. Dalinar asks about visions of Nohadon specifically, if there are no other of Nohadon, then what Stormfather said is correct: "I have shown you all that was created (of Nohadon) for you to see", though intentionally misleading.

[Aon Tia she/her]

At this point, I am not against the Stormfaker Theory, although it is weird that in the prologue, he seemed to be steering Gavilar farther away form the actual words and "I need it" was like, this was more close - clearly more odium-y! 

Also I like the irony of how Dalinar was genuinely worried about those visions being from Voidbringers and they turned out to be from Honor and stormfather whereas Gavilar, who never doubted once as to where these visions were coming from, was actually receiving from a voidbringer! Also, if stormfaker theory actually turned out to be true, in retrospect, it would make everyone 's concern like ardents and Kadash's concern over these visions to be so much more reasonable!

However, what if the ultimate points to be taken from all of this, will be that Stormfather is far more manipulative, scheming and untrustworthy than Dalinar thinks. What if, he does have an ulterior motive! 

That according to me, would be much more fun! 

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I think there is a difference. The visions seem exact, or "created", as sets of specific moments that relay the important information to the receiver. What Cultivation is suggesting is diving into the space they come from, to the Spiritual Realm, to find extra information. Honor didn't create or organize those other sights, much like Honor didn't organize the visions of Tien that Dalinar gave to Kaladin - he'd be essentially lost in a realm where space and time are matters of perception. Dangerous indeed. 

"I’ve shown you what you need" - so there is more the Stormfather can show, but he chose not to. Even if the nature of those visions are a bit different, this is something the Stormfather was aware of the entire time, but chose to hide. He knew how to do that, he knew how to show it to Dalinar, he knew how Dalinar could see them, but he decided Dalinar didn't need to see it. And this makes his statement from OB ch 28 a plain lie, because there was more the Stormfather could have shown to Dalinar, there was more for Dalinar to see. 

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

This can still be true though. Dalinar asks about visions of Nohadon specifically, if there are no other of Nohadon, then what Stormfather said is correct: "I have shown you all that was created (of Nohadon) for you to see", though intentionally misleading.

Then he should have said "There are no other visions of Nohadon," instead he said "I've shown you all, I can show no more" - this is way too broad to be applied just for Nohadon. The Stormfather tried to mislead Dalinar and hide the fact that there are more visions. Who knows, maybe there are more visions of Nohadon, but if the Stormfather were to reveal that to Dalinar, then Dalinar could have rightly wondered "if the Stormfather hid one vision from me, how many more did he hide." And the fact that in WaT the Stormfather said "I’ve shown you what you need," not all that was created for you to see, but what you need, means what he said in OB ch 28 was intentionally misleading at best, a blatant lie at worst. 

 

 

This is not the first time the Stormfather was caught red-handed - this happened at least two times in OB. The first time was, when he tried to hide the fact that he can sense Ishar, a chapter later he tried to omit that Dalinar can speak other languages. Both times he revealed the truth only because Dalinar pressed him further and the Stormfather was not happy. OB ch 64:

Quote

“Do you know where they are?”
I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms.
“Do you know where they are?”
Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.
[...]
“When … when were you thinking of informing me of this?”
When you asked. When else would I speak of it? [note - Dalinar had to ask him TWICE!]
“When you thought of it!” Dalinar said. “You know things that are important, Stormfather!”
He just rumbled his reply.

OB ch 65:

Quote

“Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather.
What makes you think I can?
“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.”
The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you.

 

Now I also think that Gavilar might have seen more than Dalinar and it makes sense. Dalinar's visions were focused on Radiants and Radiants alone, there was only one vision related to Heralds - the vision of Aharietiam. So why would Gavilar be certain that he was going to become a Herald? Why did he feel he knew Heralds very well and he thought of them as his colleagues? Maybe because he saw more visions of Heralds, visions of the Oathpact being made, ancient times when Heralds were joining the Oathpact or fighting during Desolations and all of this gave him a false impression that he was meant to be a Herald as well. And that's why the Stormfather said he will try differently next time, that's why he chose to hide those visions from Dalinar in the first place.

[therunner he/him]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Then he should have said "There are no other visions of Nohadon," instead he said "I've shown you all, I can show no more" - this is way too broad to be applied just for Nohadon. The Stormfather tried to mislead Dalinar and hide the fact that there are more visions.

...that is what I said? That Stormfather was intentionally misleading, despite possibly saying truthful statement.

And he did not say "I've shown you all" but "I've shown you all that was created".
If he semi-actively creates visions then that is also true.

My point is not that Stormfather was truthful, but that he was intentionally misleading and lying by omission, and not stating outright lie in this statement.

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 Who knows, maybe there are more visions of Nohadon, but if the Stormfather were to reveal that to Dalinar, then Dalinar could have rightly wondered "if the Stormfather hid one vision from me, how many more did he hide." And the fact that in WaT the Stormfather said "I’ve shown you what you need," not all that was created for you to see, but what you need, means what he said in OB ch 28 was intentionally misleading at best, a blatant lie at worst.

If there are more visions of Nohadon then yes, that loophole is closed and he did lie outright.

But I would note that even in other quotes you raise, Stormfather does not outright lie, he avoids, he misleads but does not outright lie. Specifically,

Quote

“Do you know where they are?”
I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms. [No lie, he does not see all, he just does not answer the question Dalinar is asking. Technically he also does not know where they are at the moment, since they are not in the storm.]
“Do you know where they are?”
Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. [Truth. He only relays what he perceives.]
[...]
“When … when were you thinking of informing me of this?”
When you asked. When else would I speak of it? [He told Dalinar after he asked, not on his own, also true.]
“When you thought of it!” Dalinar said. “You know things that are important, Stormfather!”
He just rumbled his reply.

Quote

“Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather.
What makes you think I can? [No lie, just avoidance.]
“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.”
The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you. [Truth]

So he avoids, he misleads, but from what I can see does not lie outright.

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 Maybe because he saw more visions of Heralds, visions of the Oathpact being made, ancient times when Heralds were joining the Oathpact or fighting during Desolations and all of this gave him a false impression that he was meant to be a Herald as well. And that's why the Stormfather said he will try differently next time, that's why he chose to hide those visions from Dalinar in the first place.

Yep, I think so too.

 

[BinarySecond]

Ok so I'm going to retract everything I ever said about the Stormfaker. 

He's pretending LOADS to Dalinar and lying by omission a ton but he truly did court Gavilar.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

...that is what I said? That Stormfather was intentionally misleading, despite possibly saying truthful statement.
[...]
My point is not that Stormfather was truthful, but that he was intentionally misleading and lying by omission, and not stating outright lie in this statement.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear but I agree with you and I was just expanding upon your statement. If the Stormfather wanted to be honest, he should have said what I proposed. And while he might be telling true statements, he is still lying by omission - which is clearly visible in quotes from ch 64 and  65 when he tried to hide behind true but unhelpful words. He was technically correct in those quotes (which is the best kind of correct), but he was omitting the truth from Dalinar, avoiding answering questions and was intentionally misleading him, and Dalinar caught him in ch 64/65. But being technically correct is the best way of hiding important information. 

 

Edit: 

If the Stormfather is the Stormfaker, then he directly lied to Dalinar in OB ch 38 by telling him that no Herald has died since Aharietiam. 

Quote

IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

Edited 13 hours ago by alder24

[therunner he/him]

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sorry, I didn't make it clear but I agree with you and I was just expanding upon your statement.

Ah sorry then. I am bit on edge lately, which seems to be bleeding into my reading comprehension as well

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He was technically correct in those quotes (which is the best kind of correct), but he was omitting the truth from Dalinar, avoiding answering questions and was intentionally misleading him, and Dalinar caught him in ch 64/65. But being technically correct is the best way of hiding important information.

Indeed, technically correct is best,... and worst.

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If the Stormfather is the Stormfaker, then he directly lied to Dalinar in OB ch 38 by telling him that no Herald has died since Aharietiam. 
 

Quote

IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

Good catch!

This raises question, why didn't he directly lie in the other cases as well? He is the usual confident self in this.
All I can think is that somehow the non-Taln Herald that died did not return to damnation, and that part is the lie, but that is a bit tortured logical leap.

[GudThymes he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Good catch!

This raises question, why didn't he directly lie in the other cases as well? He is the usual confident self in this.
All I can think is that somehow the non-Taln Herald that died did not return to damnation, and that part is the lie, but that is a bit tortured logical leap.

I no longer believe in the original stormfaker theory after the most recent preview chapters. But in the vein of the recent conversation I think that it is plausible that the Stormfather is still telling the truth.

One interpretation is that the Stormfather knows that Braize is not damnation thus he is not lying about the herald dying AND returning to damnation.

Or the herald didn't actually return to Braize but remained on Roshar. There's nothing saying that the Fused have to come immediately when a herald returns, just that they can until the heralds lock themselves away again.

Or, the stormfather is lying outright and has always been able to lie outright (not just be misleading or lying by omission). I think this is the most likely option and it is why I no longer believe in the stormfaker idea.

[Kesamijr]

On a reread, here to say: the Stormfather either DOES explicitly (not by omission but explicitly) lie to Dalinar in Oathbringer. That or, Stormfaker theory, in which I’m still a believer, is correct.

Oathbringer, pg. 408

Quote

“He finally broke,” the Stormfather said. “He has joined the nine who still live. In these millennia none have ever died and returned to damnation.” 

We know from the new prologue that a Herald, almost certainly Chana, does die. So either, the Stormfather is lying here, or, Stormfaker is real and the Stormfather didn’t know about Chana’s death. 
 

EDIT: just realized I’m about 3 hours late

That said though, still feels like Stormfaker being a Herald/Fused is plenty likely this much of an outright lie feels so anti-Honorspren to me.

Edited 9 hours ago by Kesamijr

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

If the Stormfather is the Stormfaker, then he directly lied to Dalinar in OB ch 38 by telling him that no Herald has died since Aharietiam. 

Quote

IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

Not necessarily. As he says right after, the Oathpact has been weakened to near annihilation, and in the prologue the Stormfather (or "Stormfather" if you must) is concerned about something to do with it:

Quote

A Herald… a Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No! They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…

What if it's no longer functional enough to return them to Braize properly, hence "BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID"? More speculatively: Perhaps Chana got sort of caught halfway, but the Everstorm being broken off allowed her to escape back to Roshar, and this is why Taln's arrival coincides so closely with it even though most common theories say they're unrelated?

[Etedbert he/him]

Forgive me for not having the quote, but I remember someone in WOR or OB (maybe the storm father?) commenting on the Desolations, that the Herald’s return and then there is a short delay before the Fused follow. Could it be that Taln in his madness did not return when the other herald (probably Chana) broke and returned, and stayed longer than he could have? 
 

it could explain “Taln never broke” as well as why he returned at such an odd time

 

41 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps Chana got sort of caught halfway, but the Everstorm being broken off allowed her to escape back to Roshar, and this is why Taln's arrival coincides so closely with it even though most common theories say they're unrelated?

Do we know when the Everstorm was broken off of Braize? It could be an interesting twist is a Herald (Chana) who abandoned the Oathpact broke, and rather than allowing a full return, it opened up a way for Odium to break the Everstorm off of Braize to force a return without Taln breaking. (Taln being the primary bearer of the Oathpact at that point. I know the other Heralds are still connected to it, but weakly)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

18 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

Could it be that Taln in his madness did not return when the other herald (probably Chana) broke and returned, and stayed longer than he could have? 

Could be, but what triggered his return then?

10 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

Do we know when the Everstorm was broken off of Braize?

Pretty recently, one of Venli's later flashbacks (a year and a half before RoW, so very close to the summoning of the storm into the Physical Realm) says this:

Spoiler

Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he'd moved the storm across the landscape—unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

 

12 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

It could be an interesting twist is a Herald (Chana) who abandoned the Oathpact broke, and rather than allowing a full return, it opened up a way for Odium to break the Everstorm off of Braize to force a return without Taln breaking.

I don't think so personally, Ulim talks about the plan before the other Herald dies and I don't think they would rely on assuming they could break Taln after four and a half millennia of that not working. It doesn't look like Ulim ever talks about bringing the Fused back until OB, so maybe the Herald breaking allowed that? But Ulim is also a lying slimy bag of crap so that might just be him hiding information, and it's also kind of weird to say they were going to launch a Desolation with only forms of power when Mishram already tried that.

[agrabes]

22 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He doesn't seem unable in the latest chapters, just unwilling. He refers to it as "dangerous" and says he'll need to think about it, not just a flat no like he gave before.

True - I also think that the Stormfather has changed over time based on his bond with Dalinar.  So it might be that based on who/what he was then, he didn't have the freedom to make that choice, but now he does.  But, it could also be that it was always a "don't want to" and not a "can't."