Hesina's Family

[Yumiya]

There has been a theory floating around that most seem to find very convincing (I think I am a outlier) that Shallan's mom was Chana. While I have not completely bought into it, it does beg the question, are there other children by heralds?

Hesina becomes suspicious because two of her children were recruited be Spren (Kaladin by Syl and Tien by a cryptic). Then Sanderson implies that there is more going on with her:
 

Quote

Questioner

Are both of Kaladin's maternal... grandparents darkeyes?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question. I think you're the first one to pull that out of me...

There's one question, or two questions in [the signing line], that I know are driving your brains crazy, that are not as clear-cut in my answers as you might assume they are. One is about Kaladin's mother.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

I think Kaladin and Tien are descended from Vedel, whose whereabouts are unknown. This could be in two ways. One, Hesina is Vedel. Or Hesina is also descended from Vedel. I am actually leaning toward the first. 
A couple of things we know:

• Vedel is described as looking Alethi to modern Rosharans.
  • Hesina also looks Alethi.
• Vedel trained new surgeons during the desolations and is associated with healing and loving.
  • Hesina married a surgeon and helps out as an assistant if hands are short. 
  • Hesina is a very loving person. 
• Vedel was patron of the Edgedancers,  who were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants, whose polestone is Diamond and are like good Samaritans. They are also the most religious of the orders.
  • Hesina is described as being quick witted and eloquent. 
  • The gems stolen by the family were diamond broams.
  • Hesina tends to spend her time in menial labor even after the townsfolk stop paying her.
  • Hesina is very religious, particularly with burning glyph wards.
• Vedel came from a society that did not care about eye color.
  • One of Hesina's parents is darkeyed, which is not unheard of but is not very common in modern times.
• Vedel, having been chosen as  Herald, was much more than a simple country wife
  • Hesina has fallen in social standing since her childhood.

Now, one thing that starts to fall apart a bit is the other talk about Hesina's parents/family. 

We know that Lirin believes that he has met them and it did not go very well. They are not often talked about around the children and that Hesina is still receiving letters from her family. A couple of possibilities here might make it workable.

1. Hesina is simply lying through her teeth about the letters being from family and got some people to pretend to be her parents.
2. Hesina is a child of Vedel (like Ash is Jezerin's daughter) and either another Herald or a contemporary. Lirin did meet them and yeah, it didn't go well because they are insane. 
3. Hesina is referring to the Heralds as family and parent substitutes because all her direct relatives died long ago. 

We have seen Radiantness run in families. Kaladin and Tien. The Kholins (Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin, Elokar-almost, excluding Navani as she is not related by blood). The Davars (Shallan, Helaran). We know it is not hereditary, but caused more because spren look in certain places, generally based on Connection to specific people. So maybe they are just looking at the descendants of the Heralds more than other places.

[Why Kaladin?]

We also have the knowledge that Kaladin is the Son of Tanavast which probably ties into this we know that Tanavast could have lived from this WoB

Quote

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

It would be very interesting if those 2 lines mixed maybe 1 from each side?

 

I do doubt though that Hesina is Vedel I could believe that she is descended from her but she seems too stable herself to be a Herald they all have some kind of visible madness and I doubt any of them would be able to escape it.

 

She was also incredibly talented in medicine far surpassing any currently living surgeon and I think she would not be willing to stand by and let people die when she could save them and do a better job than her husband. 

And lastly we do have a quoted age for her from Kaladin, 41 she could have lied about this but it seems unlikely since her family will eventually find out if she never ages.

[NameIess]

43 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

We also have the knowledge that Kaladin is the Son of Tanavast which probably ties into this we know that Tanavast could have lived from this WoB

Kaladin is not the literal son of Tanavast, as Lirin and Hesina are his biological parents:

Quote

Zeamay

Are Lirin and Hesina Kaladin's biological parents?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 10, 2015)

 

[Yumiya]

53 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

it seems unlikely since her family will eventually find out if she never ages.

Great counter argument to Chana being Shallan's mom as well.

Ok, Theory revised. They are all descended from Heralds. Some particular lines seemed to have gotten attention before others.
Chana - Shallan's mom and kids (Red hair)

Vedel - Hesina and kids (Diamond polestone, association with healing)

Jezerin - Kholin line, maybe all the way back to the Sunmaker (Sapphire pole stone/Kholinar blue, Ahu hanging around the palace etc)

Ishar - Seth's family (Ishar looking like a Shin)

Edited July 26, 2022 by Yumiya

[teknopathetic he/him]

There is a theory that Hesina's family is from Karbrandth, or that at least Khaladin was born there, and therefor Khaladin would be protected under Taravangian's deal with Odium. It would be tragic if Odium wins and Khal survives yet again. It could be that a herald gave birth in Karbrandth though - that would still work. It is the hospital city after all:
---

“Kharbranth,” [Taravangian] said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

(…)

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare.(…)”

----

My plan to defeat Odium is to marry every single person on the planet to the same Karbrathian person. DONE. Defeat that, Odium! Or, you start bringing woman to give birth there and then return them to their homes. If there are pact-bound people all over the planet, the planet becomes much harder to destroy. You could also start expanding the city to hilariously large boundaries. Point is, Odium left a massive opening for malicious compliance on this rule. It is too bad Dalinar will likely never know of this amazing weakness. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Yumiya]

11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Hesina's family is from Karbrandth

Lets say that they are from Karbrandth. Hesina still is described as Alethi. And Karbrandth has people from all over the world.

[teknopathetic he/him]

10 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Lets say that they are from Karbrandth. Hesina still is described as Alethi. And Karbrandth has people from all over the world.

Oh yeah, Karbradth is basically New York or London from what I can tell, so anyone could be "from" Karbrandth. Hesina doesnt seem to have any mental health issues, which makes it less likely that Hesina is a herald. I think the Checkov's Gun with Khal is that her was born in Karbrandth and that fact will cause some issues to Odium later on. 

There could be other Herald kids though. Lift might be one perhaps. Cultivation sure did take a special interest in some random kid. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Yumiya]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Lift might be one perhaps.

I thought Lift was chosen by the Ring because of her association with the Nightwatcher.

Though Cultivations intervention in the Nightwatcher's boon/bane might be related, as she intervened with Dalinar as well. Though Taravangian did not become Radiant. Maybe his willingness to work with Odium excluded him from consideration, or his boon/bane made him unsuitable in a way that Lift's and Dalinar's did not.

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

I thought Lift was chosen by the Ring because of her association with the Nightwatcher.

Though Cultivations intervention in the Nightwatcher's boon/bane might be related, as she intervened with Dalinar as well. Though Taravangian did not become Radiant. Maybe his willingness to work with Odium excluded him from consideration, or his boon/bane made him unsuitable in a way that Lift's and Dalinar's did not.

Well, Lift's timeline works almost as well as Shallan's timeline. We know Lift's mother died x years in the past, so who is to say it wasn't Lift's Herald Mother who died and the Nightwatcher and/or Cultivation took pity on the girl. I mean, how does a little girl even get to the Nightwatcher? It could also explain why Lift is so weird - maybe the daughter of a herald just operates weirdly and Cultivation wanted to experiment with that 

Edited July 26, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Yumiya]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

who is to say it wasn't Lift's Herald Mother who died

See, that is where I get a little confused on the whole a Herald died and it was Shallan's mom theory. 
Jasnah, Tien, Kaladin, and Szeth were already being looked at as candidates at that point. And Shallan herself was bonded enough to manifest Testament as a shard blade. 
Spren don't start creating radiants until they feel a danger. What danger is there in having 2 Heralds on Braize? Wouldn't that strengthen the oathpact? And if this Herald who died broke, Taln would have been brought back too. But Taln does not return until a couple of months before the Battle of the Tower. Timing does not line up for me. 

Now, Lift is described as being identifiably Reshi, despite not being born there. Does not mean that she does not have Herald blood somewhere, but I doubt it would be direct and it is unclear who it would have been. None of the heralds are described quite like the Reshi are. Though, the distinctions might be smaller than we think because Jezerin is Shalash's father, but he is described as Alethi and she as Azish.

[Why Kaladin?]

42 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Though Taravangian did not become Radiant. Maybe his willingness to work with Odium excluded him from consideration, or his boon/bane made him unsuitable in a way that Lift's and Dalinar's did not.

I think Taravangian was excluded due to his lack of trauma. spiritually, he still had fully (though oddly) functioning mind and soul.

18 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

What danger is there in having 2 Heralds on Braize?

I think there is a danger here the whole reason the Oathpact was broken was so that the 1 trustworthy Herald would take all of the pain and would be able to withstand it. If there were 2 Heralds that would defeat the entire purpose of breaking the Oathpact.

[alder24]

I highly doubt that Hesina is Vedel, she is mentaly stable without any kind of insane behaviour. Also as you point out her parents are alive so that most likely exclude them as Heralds. However they might be of Herald's descendants as we don't have much information about their ancestors. I personaly don't like the idea of everyone being suddenly offsprings Heralds as its difficult for CS to have kids, Chana is enough, and adding more is unnecessary. If I remember correctly there was a WoB saing that sprens are attracted to bonds being formed so they will try form more bonds with people around - Bridge 4 is good example as they aren't related yet all are now knights. If I were to find Herald's kids I would be looking into someone with very troublesome and traumatic childhood as having insane thousands year old parent would not be perfect for child growing up.

I'm much more in support of theory of Liss the assassin being Herald Vedel as it fits perfectly to her insanity - for a healer to the killer - and it place another Herald in Kholinar's palace during Gavilar's assassination.

EDIT:

I think Taravangian would be a great Bondsmith material, if only he had more hope in saving all of Roshar. 

Having 2 Heralds on Braize would be catastrophic, as only Taln is able to withstand torture when others broke after less then a year - with herald's current mental state it could last even less.

Lift mysterious past (did't she mention something about her mother, or she did not want to remember her?) and her trauma fits well for a candidate of being child of Herald

Edited July 26, 2022 by alder24

[Zea mays]

In ROW, in her interlude chapter, Hesina reveals that she came from a town in Alethkar called Tomat and reminisces  about her father.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

53 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

I think Taravangian was excluded due to his lack of trauma. spiritually, he still had fully (though oddly) functioning mind and soul.

This WoB disagrees. Mental trauma is not required per day for Radianthood. He was probably excluded because he was quite unwilling to work with others/allow them to help him, so he would not progress with his bond.

Quote

Cody Skomauski

I've struggled with mental illness my whole life. Reading about your characters like Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar, that all have some degree of mental illness, start their path to recovery after forming a Nahel bond is very interesting to me. Is it a requirement for a Knight Radiant to be broken in some way prior to the bond? Where did you get this idea? Or was it just how it turned out?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bunch of different answers to this, a variety of directions I can go. Part of it is, this is how it turned out. As I was developing the characters, I knew very early on, after the 2002 version didn't quite work, I knew what I wanted to do with Kaladin. And Shallan's character has always been a central feature of who she was, even before I came up with her modern version of the character. So there was a theme building there on its own. And when I notice a theme, I ask myself, "Is there a reason I'm looking at doing this? Why is it a theme?" And I realized this is something that was very interesting to me. I have several loved ones who have mental health issues that they deal with. It was something I didn't see done a lot in heroic or epic fantasy, and it felt very natural as a place to go. That the Knight Radiant bond is about making this bond with this spren and striving to become a better person.

It is not required in-world. A lot of people, even in-world, think that it is, because it was so common. My kind of external answer to that, even though they don't know this in-world, is that people who have struggled with these kinds of problems are more open to walking the path that one needs to walk to become a Knight Radiant. The two go hand-in-hand, the kind of self-awareness, and the ability to see yourself, to be reflective, just goes hand-in-hand with working on some of these issues. And at the same time, I felt it just worked really well with the themes of the story, the themes that Dalinar has of redemption. And also, I think that the extreme circumstances that a lot of characters put through stories like the ones I write do lead people to have some difficulties, right? Even PTSD, and things like that. There's just a lot that goes hand-in-hand together with this.

So the answer is, yes, it happened to be that way. But once I noticed it happened to be that way, I asked myself, "Is this a theme I'm doing on purpose, even if I haven't noticed it?" And the answer to that was, "Yes, it is."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/410/#e13843

 

 

 

[Erklitt]

I thought this was an interesting theory, although I agree with

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

I personaly don't like the idea of everyone being suddenly offsprings Heralds as its difficult for CS to have kids, Chana is enough, and adding more is unnecessary.

 

Still, you're right that something interesting is going on with Hesina. But it's not this. I just searched WoBs for Hesina, and found two more relevant ones. I guess the first one also puts an end to the biological interpretation of 'child of Tanavast' (pity - I liked that one).   
 

Quote

AlwaysTheNextOne

Does Kaladin have a mixed heritage. Like maybe Yolish and Rosharan?

Brandon Sanderson

One thing I wanted to be very careful about in writing the Stormlight books is to stray away from people needing some kind of past or heritage to be special—it's okay for this to be for some characters, but it becomes a crutch. So your answer is no, he doesn't have much secret to his heritage. (Though his mother grew up wealthy for a darkeyes, and that's a little odd.)

Footnote: Brandon has mentioned Hesina's comparatively wealthier background several times, including mentioning that one of her parents are not darkeyed.
General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 16, 2020)

 

Quote

Dragon13

Hesina received a letter from her family talking about new fabrials. Is she related perhaps to someone like Navani?

Brandon Sanderson

See, there's too much wiggle room in that. Yes. But. Not probably as closely as your question is implying.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

Since I still have them open, I might as well add this one that @Yumiya has alluded to in the OP:

Quote

lightningrani

Can you tell me anything about Kaladin's maternal grandparents?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that his mother [Hesina]--you're asking a very astute question--gave up more than most people gave up in that city to go be what she became. She's definitely fallen in social standing since her childhood. She took a hit.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Erklitt

[Yumiya]

To start I like all the feedback and cites of WOB I have not heard, thank you for reading and taking the time to track down relevant quotes. 
Next, if something is going on with Hesina and it is not a aspect of heredity, what is it? We have listed most of the known facts in this thread already so I will refrain from doing so again. Hesina seems to have have some connection to the Herald Vedel, for reasons mentioned above. 

 

@LightweaverWannabe mentioned that the real Vedel would not be able to sit aside as people are dying. That begs the question (if she is not Hesina) what has she been doing? Maybe the heralds that have not formed spren bonds are still patronizing those who follow their ideals. Teaching them what they need to know, passing on (water downed) versions of the ideals. Not hereditary, but influence. Maybe even elevating those they chose (like squires), but through mundane channels.

If Hesina, or her family, was getting such treatment, leaving might have cut it off as Hearthstone was outside the Herald's influence. 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Yumiya

[cometaryorbit]

59 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Maybe the heralds that have not formed spren bonds are still patronizing those who follow their ideals. Teaching them what they need to know, passing on (water downed) versions of the ideals.

I think the Heralds are generally too crazy to do anything helpful. The ones we've seen are opposing or following very warped versions of their ideals (Shalash destroying art of herself, Ishar going from Pious to "I'm God", Jezrien going from king to beggar, Nale going from Just to "find legal excuses to kill people I want to kill for unrelated reasons").

So I'd think Vedel would either be very destructive or be a very warped 'for the greater good' interpretation of Loving and/or Healing.

Edited July 27, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Why Kaladin?]

I think the idea of Vedel being something twisted from her original mission is a pattern we have seen repeatedly I could see her seeing herself as a surgeon amputating the bad parts of humanity maybe as an assassin? That is one guess I also found this WoB 

Quote

Questioner

Are these old Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Those are Heralds. That's Ash, who you'll see that the very end of this [Oathbringer]. That's Jezrien who's also near the end. You haven't met her [Vedel] yet. Ishar, you have heard about. And it's identified in this book who he is. But those are artist interpretations of them, in-world. They're like the Sistine Chapel versions of the Heralds. They might not look exactly like that, but that is an in-world interpretation of them by an artist.

Footnote: Question refers to the Oathbringer endpaper art
FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

So we know she is not in any books before Oathbringer unless we can track down an appearance in a short story or RoW we can't really make anything other than vague guesses that fit into patterns. So I leave you with 2 of my guesses

1. An assassin for hire taking only very select contracts.

2. A complete reversal of what her original intent was and fading into obscurity helping no one.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Yumiya said:

To start I like all the feedback and cites of WOB I have not heard, thank you for reading and taking the time to track down relevant quotes. 
Next, if something is going on with Hesina and it is not a aspect of heredity, what is it? We have listed most of the known facts in this thread already so I will refrain from doing so again. Hesina seems to have have some connection to the Herald Vedel, for reasons mentioned above. 

 

@LightweaverWannabe mentioned that the real Vedel would not be able to sit aside as people are dying. That begs the question (if she is not Hesina) what has she been doing? Maybe the heralds that have not formed spren bonds are still patronizing those who follow their ideals. Teaching them what they need to know, passing on (water downed) versions of the ideals. Not hereditary, but influence. Maybe even elevating those they chose (like squires), but through mundane channels.

If Hesina, or her family, was getting such treatment, leaving might have cut it off as Hearthstone was outside the Herald's influence. 

Just because Helsina is married to surgeon doen't mean that she has some connection to Vedel, there is a lot of surgeons and doctors all around Roshar, many that Kaladin met, non of them have nothing in common with Vedel except for profession. Helsina herself is just an assistant and seams to not have enough knowledge to perform tasks of an surgeon alone. The Heralds don't have to do anything special or influential, Jezrien is best examle as he is rotting away in alcohol. Only Nale, Kalak and Ishar seams to be doing something with plan in mind. And none of the Heralds except Nale ever bonded spren and become Radiant. They are done with being Heralds, they abandoned humanity and this war is not their war anymore. 

Helsina has one of her parent as a lighteye (WoB you provided). That explains everything, why her parents don't like Lirin, as she abandon her position in favour of some darkeye, how well educated and religious she is, why she "fallen in social standing since her childhood", why even she named Kaladin with such lighteye fiting name, and insisted on him marrying Laral so at least his children would have chance of becoming lighteyes. Maybe she is related to someone like Amaram or Sadeas which would not be positively received by Kaladin, but I doubt that there is something more to it.

11 hours ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

So we know she is not in any books before Oathbringer unless we can track down an appearance in a short story or RoW we can't really make anything other than vague guesses that fit into patterns.

Brandon also might just try to cover her true identity as Liss for time being, like he did with Taln "a man who claims to be a Herald" as he'd RAFO anything related to her (there isn't many WoBs on her). Or maybe Vedel is hidden somewhere among Kharbrant's hospitals where she drained blood from her patients - was it mentioned somewhere about some important doctor or "leader" of that operation?

Quote

Steeldancer

And then the final question. At the beginning of Words of Radiance, the assassin Liss, is she Chana?

Brandon Sanderson

*Evil laugh* I will RAFO that. Sorry!

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:56 PM, Yumiya said:

See, that is where I get a little confused on the whole a Herald died and it was Shallan's mom theory. 
Jasnah, Tien, Kaladin, and Szeth were already being looked at as candidates at that point. And Shallan herself was bonded enough to manifest Testament as a shard blade. 
Spren don't start creating radiants until they feel a danger. What danger is there in having 2 Heralds on Braize? Wouldn't that strengthen the oathpact? And if this Herald who died broke, Taln would have been brought back too. But Taln does not return until a couple of months before the Battle of the Tower. Timing does not line up for me. 

Now, Lift is described as being identifiably Reshi, despite not being born there. Does not mean that she does not have Herald blood somewhere, but I doubt it would be direct and it is unclear who it would have been. None of the heralds are described quite like the Reshi are. Though, the distinctions might be smaller than we think because Jezerin is Shalash's father, but he is described as Alethi and she as Azish.

 Not really. Having 2 would be a terrible disaster. As according to the storm father in the last few desolations Most of the Heralds  Broke the minute they were found by the fused 

[Yumiya]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

As according to the storm father in the last few desolations Most of the Heralds  Broke the minute they were found by the fused 

But this kinda refutes the idea that a herald died the night of Gavilars death. They would have broken the minute they were returned to Braize. And then Taln would have returned. But Taln did not return until more than 6 years later.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Yumiya said:

But this kinda refutes the idea that a herald died the night of Gavilars death. They would have broken the minute they were returned to Braize. And then Taln would have returned. But Taln did not return until more than 6 years later.

Just the opposite.  Remember they have to be found by the fused. Remember also what the stormfacker said when the herald died "they mustn't know" they are probably the fused. My guess is the fused didn't realize a new Herald died then 6 years later then happened upon her and she broke.  

[Why Kaladin?]

I'm confused why do we think there were 2 Heralds on Braize?

[offer]

2 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

I'm confused why do we think there were 2 Heralds on Braize?

Taln and another Herald that died few years before TWOK, maybe Chana if she is Shallan`s mother.

[bmcclure7]

25 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

I'm confused why do we think there were 2 Heralds on Braize?

Stormlight 5 prologue