New to the Cosmere! A bit of confusion..

[Sterbb he/him]

Hello readers of the cosmere!

I am currently going through my final stages of the cosmere read-through as of this date. I've started with Elantris, made my way through Mistborn Era 1, Warbreaker, Mistborn Era 2, The short stories of Arcanum Unbounded (Except for the SA ones), Mistborn SH and now finally starting my journey through SA Way of Kings! (Technically 3/4th through this book by now) My readings were in long patches of time, with breaks in-between, so unfortunately, memory dwindled from book to book. And these questions (Which is what I can remember as of now, have been irking me, and fearing the wiki for spoilers, I hoped maybe I can get some help here.) I tried to make this as cohesive as possible without rambling too much, so I apologize if its messy still

With that being said, I've started to paint a broad picture of the cosmere as I've read these titles. While they are not integral to the plots of the aforementioned book, they are fun to understand, which makes certain revelations stronger and enjoyable. However, it does get a bit overwhelming keeping track of it all, especially for a first-time read, without re-reads to piece in the missing pieces. Of course, I know a re-read eventually will assist, however as that action will be a time sink, and I won't be doing that at the moment, I was hoping YOU, the cosmere enthusiasts, who know the answers, can shed some light to some of my questions which I might have misunderstood or missed from the stories I have read. Again, I've read it all except for SA and it's short stories.

• I understand that the basic principle of the magic system which governs the cosmere is the Realmatic Theory, which falls under Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual realm. Which was briefly touched on in TES. However, how does that actually work when it comes to the magic systems used by people of different planets? In Mistborn how are the metallic arts applied through these three realms? I suppose the spiritual realm is the type of Allomancy/Feruchemy you use, which is imprinted into your soul as Khriss stated, if I recall correctly. However, how does the "How an object views itself" apply here. I suppose the perception, would be more of a fitting term. And is there always three arts to magic of a planet? Mistborn's planet has Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Is the number three related to the Realmatic Theory as well?
• Khriss also states Hemalurgy can steal investure. Which is the powers given from a shard. However, Hemalurgy is a byproduct of a shard's investure, so how would it work in other planets, away from its origin? My point here is that Hoid attempted to obtain Elantris' magic, but obviously didn't work. My assumption was that you cannot steal investure of different planets, if that is not your origin. (Though he did steal a bead of lerasium from the Well, so maybe I'm wrong about it not working)
•  BoM talks about storing identity, connection, investure and so forth (Which is confusing as all to me.) So would that be similar to hemalurgy, but without the "bloody" build-up.
• There's also something that bugs me which is how the IRE needed to drink a liquid which kept them connected to their investure, if I understood that correctly. So how do Worldhoppers avoid having to do so. We know that worldhoppers are not different beings, as some of them are people we've followed from other stories, which were normal folk. So why do they not deal with far away "sickness?" from their investure.
• And the idea of a cognitive shadow confuses me. It's what Kelsier is, or was I suppose, as he is now whole again, somehow. And the IRE feared him, or that he's a shadow, which also ties to the Thernody planet. Is the shadow, or Kelsier just the spirit?
• My last question is, do the shards actively create the magic system of a planet, or does it just 'happen' by collision of shard to planet through a reaction.

And this is just the tip I suppose, I guess I'll have to keep reading to uncover why the shattering occurred, who Adonalsium was, why was he broken by those "16?" people. Do shards retain their personalities, or do the shards overtake them, though Sazed still remains as he was, however that could be because of the shard Harmony keeping him balanced, and that by itself prompts the question, are shards like metals, can they be alloyed to make new shards. So many secrets, I wish Hoid would explain it to me in a song!

I'm sorry if I dumped too much here! But thank you if you've made it this far!

-Sterbb

 

 

[Dunkum he/him]

A lot gin on here, so I'll take ti one piece at a time

1 hour ago, Sterbb said:

I understand that the basic principle of the magic system which governs the cosmere is the Realmatic Theory, which falls under Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual realm. Which was briefly touched on in TES. However, how does that actually work when it comes to the magic systems used by people of different planets? In Mistborn how are the metallic arts applied through these three realms? I suppose the spiritual realm is the type of Allomancy/Feruchemy you use, which is imprinted into your soul as Khriss stated, if I recall correctly. However, how does the "How an object views itself" apply here. I suppose the perception, would be more of a fitting term. And is there always three arts to magic of a planet? Mistborn's planet has Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Is the number three related to the Realmatic Theory as well?

The Spiritual Realm is the Realm that the energy (technically the term here is investiture) comes from for Allomancy.  when you burn a metal, you create a link to Preservation's investiture in the Spiritual Realm which flows into you in a specific form based on which metal you burnt (technically Atium works differently because ti is a god-metal, but this is true for the rest). likewise Hemalurgy interacts with it as well because that is where an individual's spiritweb (essentially soul) is located, and Hemalurgy tears off pieces of that.  this basic principle is going to hold true for most magic systems - the Spiritual Realm is the source of the power, and the location of certain aspects of a person, such as their identity and connections etc. 

the Cognitive Realm is a bit weirder.  Some magic systems have cognitive interactions that aren't specifically interactions with the Cognitive Realm.  Healing, for instance - magical healing in the Cosmere generally heals you by making your physical body match your cognitive (and spiritual) version of yourself. so if you lost a limb and got used to it to the point that you see yourself as being 1-armed, then if you were to be Healed, you might not regenerate the arm, even if the healing power were capable of it, vs if you cognitively saw it as being an issue, then you could heal it, given enough power. likewise in Mistborn, a Tin Ferruchemist can store senses, but if someone spent time learning about the brain and how it processes sensory input then they might have a different view of what are senses than the traditional 5 senses, and would theoretically be able to store to a tinmind that way (e.g. sense of balance or sense of pain as separate senses).  that's a cognitive thing, but doesn't really ave anything to do with the cognitive realm.

On the other hand you will see (probably have seen) in Stormlight magic systems that do directly interact with the Cognitive Realm in very obvious ways.  also, due to some weirdness there, the magic systems on Sel (Elantris, the Emperors Soul) get their power from the Cognitive Realm.

as to whether there are always 3 arts to a planet - he short answer is No.

 

1 hour ago, Sterbb said:

Khriss also states Hemalurgy can steal investure. Which is the powers given from a shard. However, Hemalurgy is a byproduct of a shard's investure, so how would it work in other planets, away from its origin? My point here is that Hoid attempted to obtain Elantris' magic, but obviously didn't work. My assumption was that you cannot steal investure of different planets, if that is not your origin. (Though he did steal a bead of lerasium from the Well, so maybe I'm wrong about it not working)

Hemalurgy can, in theory, steal just about anything, but several of the other magic systems have additional restraints on them tat make it a bit more complicated. e.g. Awakening requires Breath, and is automatically granted if you acquire Breath, so not any point in using Hemlurgy there. Selish Magic systems, like the Aon Dor require a Connection to a specific location on Sel, and even if you get that, getting that magic to work at a distance takes additional effort. but for a simple example you could steal Snd Mastery from a Snd Master in the White Sand books, as long as you had the right metal and knew what you were doing.

it is possible to get access to other magic systems, but if you weren't born on that world, sometimes it takes extra work is all.  Lerasium granting Allomancy is on of the easiest.  Spren granting Surges is another relatively straightforward one, though taking the Spren offworld is a challenge

 

1 hour ago, Sterbb said:

BoM talks about storing identity, connection, investure and so forth (Which is confusing as all to me.) So would that be similar to hemalurgy, but without the "bloody" build-up.

the main difference is that a ferruchemical charge is lost when you use it. so you can tap a nicrosilmind nd gain, for instance, Gold Ferruchemy, but once the nicrosilmind runs out you lose it.  with the proper Hemalurgic spike, you would have that power until the spike is removed - and could gain it back by re-inserting the spike.

 

1 hour ago, Sterbb said:

There's also something that bugs me which is how the IRE needed to drink a liquid which kept them connected to their investure, if I understood that correctly. So how do Worldhoppers avoid having to do so. We know that worldhoppers are not different beings, as some of them are people we've followed from other stories, which were normal folk. So why do they not deal with far away "sickness?" from their investure.

the Ire are originally from Sel and their magic fades if they go to far from their home.  not even just homeworld - we see Elantrian magic is weaker the further they get from Elantris.  Offworld, without some shenanigans to handle this, it would be negligible.  point being, this is a problem specific to the Ire and other Selish worldhoppers, not to everyone.

 

1 hour ago, Sterbb said:

And the idea of a cognitive shadow confuses me. It's what Kelsier is, or was I suppose, as he is now whole again, somehow. And the IRE feared him, or that he's a shadow, which also ties to the Thernody planet. Is the shadow, or Kelsier just the spirit?

This goes back to Realmic stuff.  A cognitive shadow, by default, is just the cognitive aspect, unbound from the physical. I don't know if we have a whole lot of info on why Kelsier is different from a Shade, but Threnody has some weird stuff going on.

 

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

My last question is, do the shards actively create the magic system of a planet, or does it just 'happen' by collision of shard to planet through a reaction.

they just happen, but the shards are able to exert some influence on them afterwards, eg. when Preservation changed how snapping worked in order to send a message

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

Hello readers of the cosmere!

I'm sorry if I dumped too much here! But thank you if you've made it this far!

-Sterbb

Welcome to the Forums. . . if you haven't found it already, you may want to start here.

That said, I'll do my best:

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

While they are not integral to the plots of the aforementioned book, they are fun to understand, which makes certain revelations stronger and enjoyable. However, it does get a bit overwhelming keeping track of it all, especially for a first-time read, without re-reads to piece in the missing pieces.

You may want to consider just letting the first read through relax and enjoy this story for itself; plenty of time to delve into the background later - and you'll only ever have a FIrst read of Way of Kings.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

I understand that the basic principle of the magic system which governs the Cosmere is the Realmatic Theory, which falls under Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual realm. Which was briefly touched on in TES. However, how does that actually work when it comes to the magic systems used by people of different planets?

Not quite on the bold part - Yes to Realmatic Theory concerning the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical Realms; but the portion of Realmatic Theory that governs the magic systems is Investiture.

Quote

In Mistborn how are the metallic arts applied through these three realms? I suppose the spiritual realm is the type of Allomancy/Feruchemy you use, which is imprinted into your soul as Khriss stated, if I recall correctly. However, how does the "How an object views itself" apply here. I suppose the perception, would be more of a fitting term. And is there always three arts to magic of a planet? Mistborn's planet has Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Is the number three related to the Realmatic Theory as well?

• Each metal's allomantic, feruchemical, and/or hemalurgical ability differs in how it interacts with the realms. For example when an allomancer burns iron/steel, they are seeing their connection to the metal around them (the blue lines) which is a form of Spiritual Realm sight, but they only affect that metal in the physical realm when the push or pull. If you look at the Allomantic and Feruchemical tables, you will see some that some abilities are obviously tied to specific realms.
• Kind of correct, an individual's Spirit Web includes their Spiritual DNA (sDNA) and on that strand is encoded what (if any) Allomantic or Feruchemical abilities a person has (snapping would allow those abilities to be expressed in the Physical Realm)
• Object identity doesn't interact very much with the Metallic Arts, but you should have seen how much it can interact with the Selish arts in Emeror's Soul.
• No The three Metallic Arts were a Ruin and Preservation thing - other worlds may have 0 to 5+ arts (also depending on how you define an "art")
• Some worlds have numbers that are more important in that area; you should have seen which number was important on Scadrial during Hero of Ages.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

Khriss also states Hemalurgy can steal investiture. Which is the powers given from a shard. However, Hemalurgy is a byproduct of a shard's investiture, so how would it work in other planets, away from its origin? My point here is that Hoid attempted to obtain Elantris' magic, but obviously didn't work. My assumption was that you cannot steal investiture of different planets, if that is not your origin. (Though he did steal a bead of lerasium from the Well, so maybe I'm wrong about it not working)

Remember above, about sDNA? That is one of the things Hemalurgy can steal; and is in fact how you saw it used in Era 1 (a Spike was  used to steal a single Allomantic or Ferchemical Power from the person killed, then that power was added to the Inquisitor gaining the spike (sort of "stapled" a piece of the victim's could to their own to gain that ability). What it really sounds like the issue here is that you don't have a functional definition of Investiture. It's not synonymous with magic or spiritual realm or any of that; it is simply a third state of 'being.' In our world we have Matter and Energy, which can be converted into each other. The Cosmere adds Investiture to that list and both matter and energy can convert to/from investiture - Word of Brandon (WoB):

 

Spoiler

 

Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

 

RAFO on the last parts

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

BoM talks about storing identity, connection, investure and so forth (Which is confusing as all to me.) So would that be similar to hemalurgy, but without the "bloody" build-up.

There is much we don't yet know about all of this, but there is a lot of speculation; as well as hope that Lost Metal will answer many questions.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

There's also something that bugs me which is how the IRE needed to drink a liquid which kept them connected to their investure, if I understood that correctly. So how do Worldhoppers avoid having to do so. We know that worldhoppers are not different beings, as some of them are people we've followed from other stories, which were normal folk. So why do they not deal with far away "sickness?" from their investure.

We don't know much about this either, but it is mostly assumed that what you saw in M:SH was a specific Elantrian thing due to the way they are affected by the Shaod. Worldhoppers you have already seen in books you say you finished, and in the Way of Kings may or may not have other or similar requirements - but the requirement will be due to their nature, not due to worldhopping in general.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

And the idea of a cognitive shadow confuses me. It's what Kelsier is, or was I suppose, as he is now whole again, somehow. And the IRE feared him, or that he's a shadow, which also ties to the Thernody planet. Is the shadow, or Kelsier just the spirit?

Have you  read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell? Those shades are what the Ire feared. . . They just happened to:

Spoiler

Initially think Kelsier was one of those shades; then when their Fabrial failed to detect him he was able to convince them he was an Avatar of Ruin so he could rip off their connection juice.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

My last question is, do the shards actively create the magic system of a planet, or does it just 'happen' by collision of shard to planet through a reaction.

Depends on the Shard and the Planet. For example - the Metallic Arts were created by Ruin and Preservation (since they created the planet), but we don't know if Breath and awakening were created or just influenced by the Shard on Nalthis.

2 hours ago, Sterbb said:

I guess I'll have to keep reading to uncover why the shattering occurred, who Adonalsium was, why was he broken by those "16?" people. Do shards retain their personalities, or do the shards overtake them, though Sazed still remains as he was, however that could be because of the shard Harmony keeping him balanced, and that by itself prompts the question, are shards like metals, can they be alloyed to make new shards.

Much of that is stuff we know won't be answers until near the end of the Cosmere. (e.g. All the Adonalsium stuff will be in Dragonsteel - which is planned to be the second to last series (right before Mistborn Era 4). Over centuries, the Vessel's mind begins to change to fit the Shard's intent more perfectly.  WoB on Shardic minds:

 

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

 

 

[Sterbb he/him]

Oh wow! Thank you both so much for these incredible insights. I feel like I have a better understanding of these questions now, albeit still a bit complicated, but figuring it out is part of the fun.

I really appreciate it!

 

Quote

Welcome to the Forums. . . if you haven't found it already, you may want to start here.

And yes, I will take a look at this, thanks for sharing it .

 

Happy reading to both of you.

[Serack he/him]

A lot to unpack there and I didn't read the other replies.

Relmantic theory (physical realm, Cognative realm, and Spiritual realm) is really important for understanding the magic systems of the Cosmere, but they are just one aspect of the relevant "theory" necessary to model and explain things.  Other important concepts, some you mentioned but I will describe anyways, are:

• Investiture:  A fancy word for magic in the Cosmere.  Some flavors of the term are
  • Investiture can kind of be thought of as a modifier to physics.  It's an extra term in E=MC^2 and is the handwaving that allows magic to work beyond the physics of the real world.  In Mistborn the mists and the fluid in the Well of Ascension are actually investiture condensed into a gaseous and fluid form.  Atium and lerasium are a solid form of the same.  Stormlight, and some other things in The Stormlight Archive are manifestations of this too.  
  • An "invested" being or person is one... blessed by cosmere magic (usually associated with a particular shard) so that they can manipulate investiture according to the rules of that particular form of magic
• Intent:  Most cosmere magic requires the will of a being to shape it, and this is called Intent.  Occasionally, if enough investiture is sitting around idle it can shape a will on its own.  When magic gets handwavy, it's intent that allows it to work.  
• Identity:  How objects see them selves effecting them in the cognative realm is an aspect of this.  An example of this being relevant in cosmere magic is healing and shape shifting.  Some invested beings "heal" by using investiture to revert to how they see themselves.  Older injuries are typically harder to heal because they become part of the individual's identity.  
• Connection:  This seems to have ties to the "Spiritual Realm" when it comes to connections between people.  Also, some magic systems (particularly in the world Elantris is set on) require "Connection" to a region to work, and as a byproduct of that, they have less influence if the practitioner moves away from the region.  
• Fortune:  We know less about this, but it gets dropped a bit.  It may be related to seeing into the future.  

For a lot of cosmere magic, these things can be considered in terms of how they limit a particular magic system.  Hemalurgy requires intent for a spike to tear off a portion of a being's soul to be able to invest the spike with it and then drive it into the spirit web of another person.  Breath is kind of special in that once someone with Intent endows theirs onto someone else, there really are no other limitations like "Connection" or "Identity." 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Serack