Theory for what happened to the missing shardblades

[+Kolten]

Here is a bit of a crackpot theory for where the missing shardblades are.

We know that the number shardblades in circulation are much lower than they should be, for how many knights radiant there must have been at the time of the recreance. We also see in Oathbringer that some deadeyed spren are cared for from family members, and appear to not be being summoned by a shardbearer at all.  It would seem there needs to be some sort of mechanism for how this comes to be. 

So what if there is an industry in shadesmar where family members of deadeyed spren pool their money and hire a human hit squad to go track down their relative, kill their shardbearer, and then bring them back to the cognitive ream permanently? 

A more realistic take on this is that some immortal person (a herald? maybe the sleepless?) is finding and bonding them to take them out of circulation. 

It would also be funny if there was another Aimian like Axies who has been collecting all the shardblades they can, and just never summons them. Heck maybe it is Axies himself, they are spren after all.

[Rg2045]

I like it, tho the only problem is the lack of value spheres are in the CR. 
I think a question for Brandon to help this theory is what would happen if adolin unbonded maya in the CR

[alder24]

I was asking the same question, as there should be hundreds or thousands of missing Shardblades. I think they may be kept in Shinovar alongside Honorblades, at least some of them. Here, if you want to read it:

Your idea sounds cool, yet the bigest problem with it is regular travel in and out of Shadesmar - as only one perpendicularity is accessible for travel, high in the mountains - it would be hard and time consuming but doable. But how to leave a Deadeye permanently in the Shadesmar? This seams to be a big problem. Bringing bonded blade would not made you break the bond or anything, you leave with bonded blade. Can you even unbond the blade as there is no blade nor gem in CR ? Does bringing unbonded blade and leaving Deadeye behind prevent it from going back with you to Roshar? Seems ok to me. So your theory could work, I think.

But I think both of our theories are dead on arrival, as this WoB suggest that there are no hundreds missing Shardblade, and they are lost because of weather 

Quote

Jofwu

It seems that deadeyes can wander Shadesmar freely, but when summoned as a Shardblade and subsequently dismissed, they end up at the location in Shadesmar corresponding to the location of the Shardbearer. How does this work for deadeyes who are cared for by a loved one, like Captain Ico?

Brandon Sanderson

They would vanish if their Shardblade were summoned.

Adam Horne

But it's been a while since that's happened, so it's not as much of a concern?

Brandon Sanderson

You can assume that there are more deadeyes wandering Shadesmar whose Shardblades have been lost, than there are ones that the Shardblades are kept. Probably about an equal number, I would say, 50/50. Though I would have to really crunch those numbers. I'd say that across 5000 years-ish... not quite, but you know. That a lot of those weapons, even though they are powerful and things like that, are gonna get lost. Ships are gonna get sunk; things get covered over with crem on Roshar; people go up to cross mountain passes to go attack, and they end up freezing and dying. And I think that over the years, there's been a ton of those that have been lost.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

So around 100 of Shardblades are known, 100 are lost in crem and seas - that doen't add up to 300 left at Feverstone Keep, and to even bigger number of 2000 dead Honorsprens, not to mention all other sprens like Cultivationsprens. Most likely is that most of the Shardblades left behind disappear from physical Roshar into Shadesmar and only around 200 of them are still left as blades, 100 of them are known. So no secret assassin guild in Shadesmar, no secret cache of blades in Shinovar.

[+Kolten]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

I was asking the same question, as there should be hundreds or thousands of missing Shardblades. I think they may be kept in Shinovar alongside Honorblades, at least some of them. Here, if you want to read it:

 

I did read your post first, and thought the logic was pretty good! This idea was a bit more tongue in cheek so I figured it could have its own post. It might be cool if the shin had a herald among them, if they are the one gathering the blades the could be bringing them to the herald to bond, seems like a good way to store a secret cache of blades. They seem to have a lot of knowledge of the heralds so that could be one explanation. 

As for the WoB, have another WoB! 

Quote

Questioner

The missing number of Shardblades. I just want to confirm that, when the Blades were abandoned, that all of them stayed in the Physical Realm. My question is, did some just evaporate?

Brandon Sanderson

Ahh, good question. They did not evaporate.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

So while many swords might be abandoned to the elements, there must be some mechanisms for the ones we find family members permanently caring for in shadesmar. This hit squad could also act as a recovery crew, if a particular shard was abandoned. I assume that shardblades have some cognitive realm presence (like how human souls appear as little flames) so it might be easier to get a hint to their location on the other side.

They also appear to have fortune tellers with access to Fortune for hire, so tracking them down would probably be the easiest part

11 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

I like it, tho the only problem is the lack of value spheres are in the CR. 

 With as much economic activity that is going on in the cognitive realm, I am sure there is some way to transfer value around. I mean it could just be credit for passage on spren ships that could then be traded to the caravans for off world goods. 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Does bringing unbonded blade and leaving Deadeye behind prevent it from going back with you to Roshar? Seems ok to me. So your theory could work, I think.

 

11 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

I think a question for Brandon to help this theory is what would happen if adolin unbonded maya in the CR

You both are getting at the same question, but even without a WoB, a shardblade turning into a deadeye when brought into the physical realm makes the most sense to me. Maya could not be summoned as a blade in shadesmar, and Syl was stuck in her human like shape. So far from what we have seen spren can not exist as a blade in the cognitive realm.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Kolten
typos

[Rg2045]

3 hours ago, Kolten said:

I did read your post first, and thought the logic was pretty good! This idea was a bit more tongue in cheek so I figured it could have its own post. It might be cool if the shin had a herald among them, if they are the one gathering the blades the could be bringing them to the herald to bond, seems like a good way to store a secret cache of blades. They seem to have a lot of knowledge of the heralds so that could be one explanation. 

As for the WoB, have another WoB! 

So while many swords might be abandoned to the elements, there must be some mechanisms for the ones we find family members permanently caring for in shadesmar. This hit squad could also act as a recovery crew, if a particular shard was abandoned. I assume that shardblades have some cognitive realm presence (like how human souls appear as little flames) so it might be easier to get a hint to their location on the other side.

They also appear to have fortune tellers with access to Fortune for hire, so tracking them down would probably be the easiest part

 With as much economic activity that is going on in the cognitive realm, I am sure there is some way to transfer value around. I mean it could just be credit for passage on spren ships that could then be traded to the caravans for off world goods. 

 

 

You both are getting at the same question, but even without a WoB, a shardblade turning into a deadeye when brought into the physical realm makes the most sense to me. Maya could not be summoned as a blade in shadesmar, and Syl was stuck in her human like shape. So far from what we have seen spren can not exist as a blade in the cognitive realm.

Well the question really becomes, do they disappear into the the PR? Do they stay in the CR? In between realms? Too many questions that can’t fully be answered especially when you think of the CR overlaying the PR in not two different locations 

[+Kolten]

56 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Well the question really becomes, do they disappear into the the PR? Do they stay in the CR? In between realms? Too many questions that can’t fully be answered especially when you think of the CR overlaying the PR in not two different locations 

Well I mean just because we can't fully answer it without a WoB doesn't mean we can't make a good case for it.

The overlapping CR and PR stuff is already a mindbender with what we have already seen. Brandon has mentioned that something like the thrill will be hard to hide, and that the method they used at the end of oathbringer was flawed because of how easy it is to see in the cognitive realm. That implies that there is a way to glean information from it. 

I would argue a shardblade becoming a deadeye if physically brought into the cognitive realm would be the least surprising result, and a decent enough foundation for further theorizing. I mean that is more or less exactly what happened to Maya and Syl in oathbringer. 

Though of the two, I would guess an immortal bonding a bunch of blades a more likely scenario. Certainly it checks out with the text just fine. 

 

What is weird is how the deadeyes get to go to the cognitive when they are not summoned. Living bonded spren don't seem to be able to do that, so arguably that is something they can do that their living relatives have a harder time doing. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Kolten
added point about maya and syl

[cometaryorbit]

Not every deadeye is necessarily associated with a Shardblade. If Kaladin had died while his oaths were broken in WoR, Syl probably would have been a deadeye without associated Blade. So some of the deadeyes cared for in Shadesmar might be from a similar situation.

If the Skybreakers and/or Stone Shamans collected many of the missing Blades, they might have done something to send them back to the Cognitive. (Though the Skybreakers probably have some usable ones as well... they gave one to Helaran.)

[+Kolten]

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Not every deadeye is necessarily associated with a Shardblade. If Kaladin had died while his oaths were broken in WoR, Syl probably would have been a deadeye without associated Blade. So some of the deadeyes cared for in Shadesmar might be from a similar situation.

Hmm good point. I guess if a radiant breaks bonds before swearing the 2nd oath, becoming a deadeye might make sense. And I guess they would be in the cognitive like other deadeyed spren that are bonded. We don't actually know if a radiant dies in that situation that a blade wouldn't appear. Unless there is something I am unaware of? I am not sure why it would be more probable that one would not.

[cometaryorbit]

23 hours ago, Kolten said:

Hmm good point. I guess if a radiant breaks bonds before swearing the 2nd oath, becoming a deadeye might make sense. And I guess they would be in the cognitive like other deadeyed spren that are bonded. We don't actually know if a radiant dies in that situation that a blade wouldn't appear. Unless there is something I am unaware of? I am not sure why it would be more probable that one would not.

Hmm, I guess that is a possibility. Didn't occur to me. I think it is more likely not though because until 3rd Oath the spren is not sufficiently close to the Physical to become a Blade - the former Radiant's death shouldn't pull the spren closer to the Physical.

[+Kolten]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, I guess that is a possibility. Didn't occur to me. I think it is more likely not though because until 3rd Oath the spren is not sufficiently close to the Physical to become a Blade - the former Radiant's death shouldn't pull the spren closer to the Physical.

I thought that the radiant spren were already in the the physical the whole time, and that is why they can't think so good without the bond? I don't think their ability to be a blade has to do with their nearness to the physical realm.

[cometaryorbit]

11 hours ago, Kolten said:

I thought that the radiant spren were already in the the physical the whole time, and that is why they can't think so good without the bond? I don't think their ability to be a blade has to do with their nearness to the physical realm.

Partially in the Physical, yes, but not really fully there in the way a Shardblade is. A Shardblade has real mass (less than a steel sword that size, but still significant).

[Returned]

12 hours ago, Kolten said:

I thought that the radiant spren were already in the the physical the whole time, and that is why they can't think so good without the bond? I don't think their ability to be a blade has to do with their nearness to the physical realm.

I think that you're right on this. Syl, Pattern, etc. don't have much, if any, representation in the cognitive realm once they've made the transition unless they physically travel there via Oathgate or Elsecalling. But being "in" the physical realm seems like a kind of unclear concept for something that is, primarily, an idea and is native to a realm where physical details are not all that fixed. So there may be an element of "in the physical realm, but not manifested physically" to deal with.

Syl can barely interact with physical objects most of the time, but when she manifests as metal she can interact with physical objects pretty dramatically. Her personality becomes more detailed and her ability to think improves along with the bond, but so too do her abilities to appear as different shapes and colors. Compare this with deadeyes, who are 100% in the cognitive realm until summoned as a blade, at which point they disappear from the cognitive and appear fully in the physical realm. Or Sja-Anat, who fundamentally exists in both places simultaneously.