Lurcher Flight?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

So Allomantic Iron allows a Metalborn to 'Pull' metals.

So what if a Lurcher (or Mistborn) wore metal boots and pulled on them, would they be lifted up?

Would this be a more effective, though more tricky, form of flight through Allomancy than using Allomantic Steel?

 

 

[That1Cellist he/him]

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So Allomantic Iron allows a Metalborn to 'Pull' metals.

So what if a Lurcher (or Mistborn) wore metal boots and pulled on them, would they be lifted up?

Would this be a more effective, though more tricky, form of flight through Allomancy than using Allomantic Steel?

 

 

I feel like boots would not be any good for balancing. It would have to be a metal plate or something like that. It would be very difficult to stay aboard, and would be difficult to control other than going straight up, but yeah, I suppose this would technically work.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Just now, That1Cellist said:

I feel like boots would not be any good for balancing. It would have to be a metal plate or something like that. It would be very difficult to stay aboard, and would be difficult to control other than going straight up, but yeah, I suppose this would technically work.

Maybe a metal chair?

Also for changing directions there's always tilting, though that's where the 'tricky' part comes in.

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So Allomantic Iron allows a Metalborn to 'Pull' metals.

So what if a Lurcher (or Mistborn) wore metal boots and pulled on them, would they be lifted up?

Would this be a more effective, though more tricky, form of flight through Allomancy than using Allomantic Steel?

 

 

I don't think that would be possible, when Pulling or Pushing, they always 'brace' against themselves, i.e. if you pull on something much heavier than yourself, you get pulled closer not the object.
Hence flight like this would be literally like trying to lift yourself up by your bootstraps.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think that would be possible, when Pulling or Pushing, they always 'brace' against themselves, i.e. if you pull on something much heavier than yourself, you get pulled closer not the object.
Hence flight like this would be literally like trying to lift yourself up by your bootstraps.

I always thought that the math behind the strength of Steelpushes and Ironpulls was 'User weight + Innate Allomantic strength' else how would the Steel Inquisitors and Elend have Steelpushes that were so much stronger than Vin and Kelsier's? It couldn't just be because the Inquisitors were heavier because then Vin would have managed something during her 'pushing match' with one instead of going 'Woah this Inquisitor's Steelpushes are so much stronger than mine!', and I don't recall Vin ever saying anything about their weight being the cause. 

TL;DR your weight isn't the only factor in determining the strength of your pushes and pulls, so your Ironpulls would be a bit stronger than what you weigh. So my idea is somewhat plausible. Not completely, but somewhat.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think that would be possible, when Pulling or Pushing, they always 'brace' against themselves, i.e. if you pull on something much heavier than yourself, you get pulled closer not the object.
Hence flight like this would be literally like trying to lift yourself up by your bootstraps.

Yeah this is basically it. Ironpulling and Steelpushing is like if you had really long arms to pull or push stuff with. Physics applies as if you were trying to do that.

[Treamayne]

BLUF: Likely not possible - Iron and Steel do not make you Magneto - you can't levitate something you are standing on because it moves in relation to yourself (not in parallel) so if you flared Iron, you would only crush your legs pulling it to your chest.

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I always thought that the math behind the strength of Steelpushes and Ironpulls was 'User weight + Innate Allomantic strength' else how would the Steel Inquisitors and Elend have Steelpushes that were so much stronger than Vin and Kelsier's? It couldn't just be because the Inquisitors were heavier because then Vin would have managed something during her 'pushing match' with one instead of going 'Woah this Inquisitor's Steelpushes are so much stronger than mine!', and I don't recall Vin ever saying anything about their weight being the cause. 

TL;DR your weight isn't the only factor in determining the strength of your pushes and pulls, so your Ironpulls would be a bit stronger than what you weigh. So my idea is somewhat plausible. Not completely, but somewhat.

Well, I would consider it a percentage change. If diluted Metallic Arts at the time of TFE are  100% (base=weight); then Lerasium Arts (before dilution) are likely about 150% (push has more oomph) - and 1000yrs ago it would still have come down to each Misting's relative size/weight. But during TFE, only Elend was an undiluted Mistborn - so the difference was more pronounced. I would also posit that a Misting + Hemalurgy is 180-200% (since Vin + bronze spike could pierce Copperclouds; but undiluted Elend likely could not).

From a physics standpoint, even with flared Iron you are only pulling toward your chest (and your chest down toward the metal), so if you pull hard enough (especially without Pewter to reinforce your bones) then your legs are simply n the way of the moving metal. Either your pull or your bones would give way first. WIthout pulling on something above you, I don't see how it could resist gravity to get airborne (you would essentially have to pull with double your body weight to both move your weight and counteract gravity).

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

(since Vin + bronze spike could pierce Copperclouds; but undiluted Elend likely could not).

He could he just never learned how to do it, there's a WOB on it but I don't how to post that stuff.

Elend could do stuff that Vin would usually need Duralumin for. So I'd say that's a pretty big difference.

As for the rest of the physics stuff that I only half understand, from what I'm getting your saying that if a regular Lurcher did what I suggested they'd break their legs if they flared while Pulling. But what if they Burned Iron at a lesser rate and pulled with just enough force to lift themselves off the ground? Without breaking their legs.

[Treamayne]

40 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

He could he just never learned how to do it, there's a WOB on it but I don't how to post that stuff.

You go to Arcanum (or the Coppermind page, which has links to relevant Arcanum posts), find the Word of Brandon then either copy the data, link or both into your post.

My preferred technique is to search the major topic, click on the tag at the bottom of the first post so you are seeing everything for that tag, then use the filter to search within that tag.

E. g. Type "Allomancy" in the search bar, click the #allomancy tag in the first post, then in the "search for text" field of advanced search at the top of the Tag Page, search "Savant" and the post below will be in the results.

Quote

Elend could do stuff that Vin would usually need Duralumin for. So I'd say that's a pretty big difference.

I tried finding what you referenced, but the closest I found was this:

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Quote

As for the rest of the physics stuff that I only half understand, from what I'm getting your saying that if a regular Lurcher did what I suggested they'd break their legs if they flared while Pulling. But what if they Burned Iron at a lesser rate and pulled with just enough force to lift themselves off the ground? Without breaking their legs.

Anything less would not achieve lift (you are pulling against your own body and gravity), anything strong enough to achieve lift is likely to break the Lurcher.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAGF

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I tried finding what you referenced, but the closest I found was this:

I'm talking about Elend being able to control Hemalurgic constructs without Duralumin, though not as many as Vin could with Duralumin.

 

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Anything less would not achieve lift (you are pulling against your own body and gravity), anything strong enough to achieve lift is likely to break the Lurcher.

Hmm... Yeah I guess you have a point, so then you'd need both A-Iron and A-Pewter to do this without breaking your legs, either though being Misborn or through Hemalurgy. 

 

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You go to Arcanum (or the Coppermind page, which has links to relevant Arcanum posts), find the Word of Brandon then either copy the data, link or both into your post.

Thanks, I was pretty confused on how to do that.

[therunner he/him]

16 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I always thought that the math behind the strength of Steelpushes and Ironpulls was 'User weight + Innate Allomantic strength' else how would the Steel Inquisitors and Elend have Steelpushes that were so much stronger than Vin and Kelsier's? It couldn't just be because the Inquisitors were heavier because then Vin would have managed something during her 'pushing match' with one instead of going 'Woah this Inquisitor's Steelpushes are so much stronger than mine!', and I don't recall Vin ever saying anything about their weight being the cause. 

TL;DR your weight isn't the only factor in determining the strength of your pushes and pulls, so your Ironpulls would be a bit stronger than what you weigh. So my idea is somewhat plausible. Not completely, but somewhat.

The strength of the pull/push is like that yes, but you need leverage to make that strength do something, without that it does not help.
The ironpulls/steelpushes leverage against yourself, and if you are effectively attached to the object you are trying to push nothing is gonna happen (except internal stress in the construction).

If what you are proposing was possible, then any Coinshot could go in any direction they desire simply by attaching a coin to their hand, pointing in the direction they want to go, and pushing. The principle of that is same, yet we don't really see that happening despite how useful it would be.
 

Edited September 12, 2022 by therunner
phrasing

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

The strength of the pull/push is like that yes, but you need leverage to make that strength do something, without that it does not help.
The ironpulls/steelpushes leverage against yourself, and if you are effectively attached to the object you are trying to push nothing is gonna happen (except internal stress in the construction).

If what you are proposing was possible, then any Coinshot could go in any direction they desire simply by attaching a coin to their hand, pointing in the direction they want to go, and pushing. We don't really see that happening, but the principle is the same.

Or maybe if a Coinshot did that, either they'd lose their grip in midair and go splat or they'd get their fingers ripped off.

Ugh, physics is hard, I probably should have specified that physics was not a subject that I excelled in.

[therunner he/him]

Just now, JustQuestin2004 said:

Or maybe if a Coinshot did that, either they'd lose their grip in midair and go splat or they'd get their fingers ripped off.

They would probably need to use some sort of glove fastened to their hand quite strongly, but even then I don't think it would allow them to do that.
Technologically it is within scope of what they should be able to build in Era 2, if it was possible.

2 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Ugh, physics is hard, I probably should have specified that physics was not a subject that I excelled in.

No problem, we all have things we are better at, and things we are worse at And on top of that the physics of pulls/pushes is...wonky...at best

It really helps to imagine pulls/pushes less as telekinesis, and more that the user literally pulls/pushes the blue lines they see from objects. Then through Newton 3rd law (every action has equal and opposite reaction) you can see that if you are trying to pull the plate or boots you are standing on, you are pushing down on tehm with equal force (because that is what you are bracing against) and so the total force on the plate will always be zero.

The reason I am assuming the leverage is important is that there are scenes early in Mistborn 1, and also in later books where they do play role, e.g. in the first book there is that pushing training of Vin and Kelsier, where she braces against a tree and it suddenly throws Kelsier back (if I remember correctly).

Of course, in the end it is fictional magic, so if Brandon decides that Ironpulls can do that, they can and no argument will overturn that.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

They would probably need to use some sort of glove fastened to their hand quite strongly, but even then I don't think it would allow them to do that.
Technologically it is within scope of what they should be able to build in Era 2, if it was possible.

It's funny because I was thinking of a Mistborn doing something like this, putting on metal boots and gauntlets, then flaring Iron to Pull on the boots and Flaring Steel to Push on the gauntlets, along with Flaring Pewter to prevent the Mistborn from being hurt by this maneuver, then flying by doing the Superman Pose. That's where the idea for this post came from actually.

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

No problem, we all have things we are better at, and things we are worse at And on top of that the physics of pulls/pushes is...wonky...at best

It really helps to imagine pulls/pushes less as telekinesis, and more that the user literally pulls/pushes the blue lines they see from objects. Then through Newton 3rd law (every action has equal and opposite reaction) you can see that if you are trying to pull the plate or boots you are standing on, you are pushing down on tehm with equal force (because that is what you are bracing against) and so the total force on the plate will always be zero.

The reason I am assuming the leverage is important is that there are scenes early in Mistborn 1, and also in later books where they do play role, e.g. in the first book there is that pushing training of Vin and Kelsier, where she braces against a tree and it suddenly throws Kelsier back (if I remember correctly).

Of course, in the end it is fictional magic, so if Brandon decides that Ironpulls can do that, they can and no argument will overturn that.

Wonky definitely the right word. And yeah I was thinking about this as Telekinesis instead of 'Additional Invisible hands'.

and of course, there's still room for error because Magic be wack yo. 

[Frustration he/him]

22 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I always thought that the math behind the strength of Steelpushes and Ironpulls was 'User weight + Innate Allomantic strength' else how would the Steel Inquisitors and Elend have Steelpushes that were so much stronger than Vin and Kelsier's? It couldn't just be because the Inquisitors were heavier because then Vin would have managed something during her 'pushing match' with one instead of going 'Woah this Inquisitor's Steelpushes are so much stronger than mine!', and I don't recall Vin ever saying anything about their weight being the cause. 

Actually the weight of the individual has no bearing on the strength of their pushes, it only determines which object moves.

Basically what iron/steel do is place a piston between two objects, the length of the arm is the strength, and the weight of the objects decides which one gets pushed.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually the weight of the individual has no bearing on the strength of their pushes, it only determines which object moves.

Basically what iron/steel do is place a piston between two objects, the length of the arm is the strength, and the weight of the objects decides which one gets pushed.

Ok, so just weight decides whether the user or the metal gets Pushed or Pulled and Allomantic Strength determines how powerful the Push/Pull will be.

Is that what your saying?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, JustQuestin2004 said:

Ok, so just weight decides whether the user or the metal gets Pushed or Pulled and Allomantic Strength determines how powerful the Push/Pull will be.

Is that what your saying?

Yes, exactly.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Yes, exactly.

That makes sense.

 

WAIT A MINUTE!

I can't believe I forgot, the Southern Scadrian Airships! They fly by Pushing and Pulling themselves Allomantically! Oh wait they also reduce their weight via Iron Feruchemy, ah nevermind I guess.

[Fullborn IRL]

A full metal suit a lurcher can pull as precisely in any direction he or she wants, but that would require extra control and Ironpulling skill on the lurcher's part.

[+robardin he/him]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:42 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

So Allomantic Iron allows a Metalborn to 'Pull' metals.

So what if a Lurcher (or Mistborn) wore metal boots and pulled on them, would they be lifted up?

Would this be a more effective, though more tricky, form of flight through Allomancy than using Allomantic Steel?

All Steelpushes and Ironpulls are based from the Allomancer’s center of gravity (COG): a Coinshot sees a blue metal line from the target metal to their COG, and creates a straight-line Push. To fly, the anchor must be heavier or less moveable than the Allomancer is (otherwise, it’s the object that gets moved instead).

Ironpulling on steel boots one is wearing would only result in doing a very odd kind of squat or crunch exercise

The default line to the metal object is probably to the object’s COG, but a skilled Allomancer (as Kelsier or Vin were seen to do) can “latch on” to the edges or other points of the object instead. But I don’t think there’s any way for the line to go to the Allomancer except to the COG, like you can’t Push off something from your shoulder or Pull something directly to your hand, you have to Pull to your COG and then CATCH it with your hand.

On 10/12/2022 at 8:16 PM, Fullborn IRL said:

A full metal suit a lurcher can pull as precisely in any direction he or she wants, but that would require extra control and Ironpulling skill on the lurcher's part.

No, a metal suit would only make the Allomancer heavier and need more power to Push or Pull.

For a Lurcher to fly around, it’d have to be somewhere like in a modern city (that Elendel is rapidly becoming in Era 2) with a lot of tall buildings with metal anchors, and lamp posts and sign posts firmly affixed everywhere overhead. They’d Pull up/in front of them to get flying, and Pull on something below/behind them to slow down (and on something above them while landing).

Basically, it’d be equivalent to “slinging around like Spider-Man”, which in fact, is exactly how this WoB puts it:

Quote

Questioner

You know how Wax has control of his Steelpushes? Well, if someone has an Ironpull ability, can get practiced enough to, in the Wax & Wayne era, swing through downtown Elendel Spiderman-like with controlled Ironpulls?

Brandon Sanderson

I've actually thought about that, and I went away from it, just because of Spiderman. I have to be really careful that I just don't go Spiderman-y. But I would say it's an in-world possibility that someone could do that, and it wouldn't be that hard if you've got the buildings. The trick is, most downtowns are not tall enough, and I would say in Elendel even now, there aren't enough skyscrapers that you could really go full-on Spiderman. But if you could, if you were, like, downtown Manhattan, you could do it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

And, I would assume (like Spidey) a Lurcher could “slingshot” themselves high into the air using a higher-than-themself anchor, maybe even two of them (one on either side) for better angle control, and flare an Ironpull that they then release as they go past. The problem would be, unlike a Coinshot, you couldn’t throw down/out a piece of metal and Push against it to slow down on the descent, you’d have to have something higher than you somewhere to Pull on to slow down.

Edited October 14, 2022 by robardin

[+robardin he/him]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:09 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

WAIT A MINUTE!

I can't believe I forgot, the Southern Scadrian Airships! They fly by Pushing and Pulling themselves Allomantically! Oh wait they also reduce their weight via Iron Feruchemy, ah nevermind I guess.

Nah, the airships can’t be flying via Steelpushes, as they are able to cross oceans… Unless Harmony inlaid the seabed of Scadrial with large metal surface seams, LOL. They’re kept aloft via large metal fans, “impellers”, that are powered by Allomancy; lightening the passengers simply means less power is needed to fly:

Quote

[Allik] spun and pressed [the Allomantic grenade, what he called a “primer cube”] against Wax's arm until - as he was still burning steel to keep them afloat - it started buzzing.

The little man turned and snapped the cube into place under the shelf at the front of the ship. The machine shook, and then something started thumping underneath them. A fan? Yes, a very large one, blowing downward, powered by an unseen motor.

…

“…What, you think Wilg flies on clouds and dreams?"

"I thought it flew on Allomancy."

"Allomancy Pushes the impellers," Allik said. "But ettmetal is what supports it."

My guess is the ettmetal-fueled “engine” is generating a constant Steelpush (since the primer cube charged off of Wax) that will last for “a day or two” for a small craft like Wilg, making the fan blade spin at the proper rate for the elevation desired.

And that a Lurcher charging the cube would make the fans spin the other way? Or maybe they can flip the mechanism 180 degrees if a Lurcher is used? So many questions!

Edited October 13, 2022 by robardin