I am halfway through ROW and am so frustrated I feel I can’t continue if I don’t rant a bit

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

However Lirin forced Kaladin to conform to his ideal, to his life goals, to his wishes, ignoring what Kaladin wanted and what makes him happy. He failed to accept the fact that Kaladin is different, and that Kaladin should be different to be happy. It took 4 books for Lirin to realize that Kaladin can be someone else and have his own ideals and life goals, and Lirin still can love him for who Kal is.

Kaladin chose to become a surgeon, that wasn't forced on him.

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin chose to become a surgeon, that wasn't forced on him.

Kaladin also chose to fight and protect, and Lirin tried to do everything to force him out of this way. That's what I meant.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Do you try to justify Lirin stealing? 

I don't think Lirin is selfish or is putting townspeople above his family. It's the opposite in my opinion. Everything Lirin did, even stealing, was with his sons best interest in mind. However Lirin forced Kaladin to conform to his ideal, to his life goals, to his wishes, ignoring what Kaladin wanted and what makes him happy. He failed to accept the fact that Kaladin is different, and that Kaladin should be different to be happy. It took 4 books for Lirin to realize that Kaladin can be someone else and have his own ideals and life goals, and Lirin still can love him for who Kal is.

I think Lirin was more disappointed in Kal joining the army than he was frightened that Tien was drafted. Then he was disappointed and shattered in RoW that Kal decided to kill and fight. That was frustrating to read but it was necessary in my opinion. Having that kind of conflict is much more valuable for both characters and their development, and much more engaging. But despite that, Lirin still IS a good father (one of the best in Cosmere), he just needed time to realize that Kaladin is grown up now, can chose his own path, and that Lirin still loves him for being his son, no matter what Kal choses. And that was a great journey.

 1. I'm not justifying him stealing it,  I'm responding to claim that he created the circumstances that led to him steal it,  I merely demonstrated that that was not true. 

2. I'm not necessarily saying that Lirin Is a perfect father. He has his flaws certainly, Perhaps he takes his instinct to pass on his ideals a little too far. But I don't think this instinct is necessarily wrong Or makes him a bad father.

 Keep in mind also that Kaliden never technically rejected his ideals. He had questions and he was unsure but he never took these doubts to his father.  He never went up to his father  And said " I really don't want to be a surgeon", or "I've decided to be a soldier".

3. You're engaging in mind reading, I think it more likely that He was frightened that both his sons We're likely going to be killed, Or broken for life because of their experiences in the war.

 Yes I'm sure he was also disappointed, That his genius surgeon son would probably never get to live up to his full potential now. But I don't think that was his primary emotion. 

 

[bmcclure7]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:14 AM, alder24 said:

Kaladin also chose to fight and protect, and Lirin tried to do everything to force him out of this way. That's what I meant.

 That wasn't until after  His son was older when they both had been  tramatized by war.  He never Did anything like that when he was growing up. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by bmcclure7

[utopian]

First of thank you for all your replies. Sanderson is not hugely popular where I live so I don't get to talk about his work a lot. So those convo are really a pleasure to have. That being said let's go into it. 

Part 1. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Addressing your accusations of him putting the village over his son.

1. Are you referring to the time where he stood between the townspeople and his family armed with nothing but words?  Probably his most heroic moment.  I don't see why you have a problem with this

1. I don't have a problem with him standing up. My problem lies with the aftermath of those event. Yes he convinced them down but they were willing to attack or at least rob him. Yet he never considered that maybe those people were not safe for him and his family ? That risking his safety (and his familiy's) for them was not worth it ? The way i read he made those calculation (safety of family Vs leading those misguided people) and chose the townspeople. My "problem" with these actions is that i cannot understand why he would risk that for people like them. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

2. At that time the people of the town and Roshon are only abusing him not his children. So it's his decision about whether or not you want to stay or leave. Kalidin  And  His brother don't factor into it because they're not at risk at that point.

2. How do you know that they are not at risk ? it goes back to the first point. How do you come to the conclusion that people willing to rob you in the night for said brightlord are not a "risk" for your family ? So yes his son do in fact factor into his decision to leave or not. So either he considered that and chose to stay anyway (hence risking his family for the townspeople ) or he did not consider them a threat and he is just a fool. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

3.  He can't see the future, He can't change the cast system, Cant make his eyes bright,  He needed or felt like he needed to steal Because it's bright Lord died,  I don't see why you think this is his fault.

On 23/01/2023 at 6:12 PM, Frustration said:

He didn't need to steal, his family was pretty well taken care of, they had a constant supply of food, and permanent shelter

3. The whole stealing bit those 2 replies seem related so i will answer them as one. What I am saying is that the fact that he is not charging for his work is the reason he needs to steal in the first place. Yes they give him just enough to live but obviously not enough to have savings (I don't think it's not reasonable to expect a parent to save for their kid's future). In other words his willingness to live off charity without any back up plan puts him in the predicament of needing to steal the money

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

3.There also is no such thing as being    Selfless to a fault.

he could have saved for over the years by just charging enough to save (not making bank). But he didn't because of his rigid principles. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

4. I fail to see how changing jobs would have changed anything for Kalidin.

On 23/01/2023 at 6:12 PM, Frustration said:

Sure he can practice just about anywhere, but how many places both lack a surgeon, and are able to support one? Especially since he refuses payment, very few places would actually work out.

4. Same here. So on the fact that he chose to not move out after it all went down. This just genuinely baffles me. This place costs him everything but not only he does not seek justice about it. He keeps serving the same people (Roshone included) that created so much pain in his life why ?? 

Part 2 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

1. He wants his son to conform to his ideals,  I fail to see how this is putting himself before Kalidin, weak and selfish fathers Have no expectations for their children have no standards they push them towards. That's the easy path the path of no resistance the path of Selfishness

1. I agree part of parenting is forcing ideals on your children since they are too young to choose their own. But an other part of parenting is allowing your child to choose for them-self what works for them and actually empowering them to do just that. And at this second part Lirin fails tremendously as we see in OB and ROW. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

2.  I fail to see how giving up his principles would have changed anything.  If you're referring to killing Roshon,  Let me remind you that Lyrn cannot see the future.  At that point the bright Lord had only persecuted Him and his wife.  He had no reason to believe that Roshon was about to change things.   When he does start targeting his sons it comes out of complete shock to him

2. As I've said earlier letting go of his no charge principle would have mitigated a lot of his problems ( because he would have actual savings). But he chose not to do that hence refusing to bend in his personal code even for his family (putting them in danger). He could have just left, he says as much almost verbatim to Kal. That they could and probably should leave in light of their recent troubles. But again he puts his principles and attachements to the town above the safety of his family. 

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

3.There also is no such thing as being    Selfless to a fault. 

3 There is such a thing look it up. But I agree that it was a confusing argument. The idea is that I don't believe that a principle is always good or always bad it depends on circumstance. For example imagine someone extending a hand to Sauron as his is about to die hence preventing the "good guys" to win. Even if it would technically be a nice thing in this context it is absolutely stupid to do so. Now back to Lirin, he applies his principle (in this case general selflessness) regardless of circumstances and in my opinion it's not virtuous but rather stupid. And my general opinion is that this rigid way of applying principles is the reason he put his family in danger when he did not need to. Hence the selfishness.

On 24/01/2023 at 0:31 AM, bmcclure7 said:

For starters when he refused to give up the sphears,  He could have saved himself years of persecution. All he had to do was Give up the one chance his son had for a better of future.

I think that i adressed that at length  but he could have simply charged for his work and have savings. 

Part 3 

And to top it all off he dares treat Kaladin the way he does in spite of with all the responsibility he bears in his family's misery. As if he was right all along, that his way of doing thing is the absolute best. And saying vicious unfair things to make that point. Naah it does not sit right with me. His way of doing things is at the source of too much pain for him to act so righteous. 

And this is way i do not like (low key hate) Lirin as a person. But love him as well written character of fiction.   

[alder24]

@utopian you have a good point about Lirin's family just leaving the town. That would resolve all of their problems and let them start again. Firstly they had money, so they could afford it. Secondly, like Lirin used to say, a surgeon is always needed. Thirdly, Helsina's parents would for sure welcome them in their home and town, even if there is hostility between them and Lirin. Moreover, what they didn't know, Roshone  was not only low rank Dahn, but also he was banished there for punishment, so he had no connections to influence other Lighteyes to disallow Lirin to settle in their town. So it would be very easy for Lirin and his family to just move out, and settle somewhere else, as a surgeon he might even get a house and work for free, or if not, he could quickly regain money lost to relocating with charging for services for some short time. Nobody would get hurt, Tien would be alive, Kal would still be able to go and study.

[Oratus albinus]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 

  Addressing your accusations of him putting the village over his son.

1. Are you referring to the time where he stood between the townspeople and his family armed with nothing but words?  Probably his most heroic moment.  I don't see why you have a problem with this

2. At that time the people of the town and Roshon are only abusing him not his children. So it's his decision about whether or not you want to stay or leave. Kalidin  And  His brother don't factor into it because they're not at risk at that point.

 

3.  He can't see the future, He can't change the cast system, Cant make his eyes bright,  He needed or felt like he needed to steal Because it's bright Lord died,  I don't see why you think this is his fault.

 

4. I fail to see how changing jobs would have changed anything for Kalidin.

 

Part 2

 

Addressing your accusations of him putting himself over his son.

 1. He wants his son to conform to his ideals,  I fail to see how this is putting himself before Kalidin, weak and selfish fathers Have no expectations for their children have no standards they push them towards. That's the easy path the path of no resistance the path of Selfishness.

 

True on selflessness is strive to teach your children the ideals you've learned from life. This is the parents job, I don't see how this reflection is selfishness, If anything it makes him one of the better fathers.

Tell me do you also consider a dalinar to be selfish because he makes his sons follow the code? That's also an ideal that he has that his sons don't

2.  I fail to see how giving up his principles would have changed anything.  If you're referring to killing Roshon,  Let me remind you that Lyrn cannot see the future.  At that point the bright Lord had only persecuted Him and his wife.  He had no reason to believe that Roshon was about to change things.   When he does start targeting his sons it comes out of complete shock to him. 

 

It's true killing him may have saved both his sons. But Lirin did not know that.

 3.There also is no such thing as being    Selfless to a fault. 

 

And even if there was the very fact that you consider this to be a trate of lirin  Disproves your whole point about him being selfish and putting his family  Behind himself.

Which one is it? Is he selfish or selfish make up your mind. 

 

Part 3. Lirin putting his family over himself

1.  For starters when he refused to give up the sphears,  He could have saved himself years of persecution. All he had to do was Give up the one chance his son had for a better of future. 

 

 

 

Lirin is a self-absorbed narcissist. As someone who's had the singular pleasure of growing up with a narcissistic parent,  I can tell you that you learn to see the signs a mile away. Lirin demonstrates all the signs and behaviors to an uncanny degree. People excuse him because of the persona he presents to as this virtuous pacifist, or that his relationship with Kaladin is a result of his other son dying. The problem with the latter is easy enough to dismiss when you see in flashbacks that he had been like that well before his youngest died. His narcissism doesn't become as glaring until ROW though.

As for his supposed virtue, it's a well constructed mask. He may respect life, but has very little for the people who are actually living them, if any at all. His lessons to Kaladin to remain detached from emotions when dealing with patients is an example of painting the bullseye around the arrow. The reality is that this behavior comes natural to him because he has no empathy for other people. Not for his patients that he may or may not know, not for his son and not for his wife. He's so domineering with Kaladin because he doesn't see Kaladin as a separate person with his own plans for life and his own agency. Like most narcissists and all psychopaths, he looks at his children as merely extensions of himself, and as such he cannot suffer them having any independence. It's not only important that Kaladin becomes a surgeon like him, he also has to look at the world the same way he does and hold the same opinions.

His whole disgusting and self-absorbed tantrum in his rooms after Kaladin kills the regal is REALLY where the his mask fell for me. It wasn't only his refusal to look beyond his own narrow and rigid worldview to see the situation for what it was. His "how dare you," & "my son has turned into a monster," is just Lirin being Lirin. It's all about HIM, it's all about how it makes him look, it's how his son won't do exactly as he commands. THAT'S the monster he's referring to; not a killer but a son that refuses to play the role that he's been created for him by Lirin.

Kaladin is similar in his respect for life, but he's the polar opposite as him when it comes to his view of what those lives are. Lirin's is purely academic. When someone dies in his presence his regret isn't that they died, but that he couldn't save them. Kaladin on the other hand might kill an enemy in battle, but his interest in keeping people alive isn't academic, he doesn't look at life as some binary score keeping device. Lirin thinks about saving the life, Kaladin thinks about saving the person. These are two VERY different things with very different implications. 

His contrived sanctimonious series is shown for the act they it is with the theft of the spears. Kaladin kills because he has to, Lirin stole the spheres in order to maintain his standards of living, and to be and to pay for Kaladin to go to school, again in order for Kaladin to go down the path Lirin laid out for him. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, and I imagine anyone who's grown up with or married a narcissist would either. He's not really a good man, he's not a good husband and he's certainly not a good parent. 

[Tglassy]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:53 AM, Oratus albinus said:

 

 

Lirin is a self-absorbed narcissist. As someone who's had the singular pleasure of growing up with a narcissistic parent,  I can tell you that you learn to see the signs a mile away. Lirin demonstrates all the signs and behaviors to an uncanny degree. People excuse him because of the persona he presents to as this virtuous pacifist, or that his relationship with Kaladin is a result of his other son dying. The problem with the latter is easy enough to dismiss when you see in flashbacks that he had been like that well before his youngest died. His narcissism doesn't become as glaring until ROW though.

As for his supposed virtue, it's a well constructed mask. He may respect life, but has very little for the people who are actually living them, if any at all. His lessons to Kaladin to remain detached from emotions when dealing with patients is an example of painting the bullseye around the arrow. The reality is that this behavior comes natural to him because he has no empathy for other people. Not for his patients that he may or may not know, not for his son and not for his wife. He's so domineering with Kaladin because he doesn't see Kaladin as a separate person with his own plans for life and his own agency. Like most narcissists and all psychopaths, he looks at his children as merely extensions of himself, and as such he cannot suffer them having any independence. It's not only important that Kaladin becomes a surgeon like him, he also has to look at the world the same way he does and hold the same opinions.

His whole disgusting and self-absorbed tantrum in his rooms after Kaladin kills the regal is REALLY where the his mask fell for me. It wasn't only his refusal to look beyond his own narrow and rigid worldview to see the situation for what it was. His "how dare you," & "my son has turned into a monster," is just Lirin being Lirin. It's all about HIM, it's all about how it makes him look, it's how his son won't do exactly as he commands. THAT'S the monster he's referring to; not a killer but a son that refuses to play the role that he's been created for him by Lirin.

Kaladin is similar in his respect for life, but he's the polar opposite as him when it comes to his view of what those lives are. Lirin's is purely academic. When someone dies in his presence his regret isn't that they died, but that he couldn't save them. Kaladin on the other hand might kill an enemy in battle, but his interest in keeping people alive isn't academic, he doesn't look at life as some binary score keeping device. Lirin thinks about saving the life, Kaladin thinks about saving the person. These are two VERY different things with very different implications. 

His contrived sanctimonious series is shown for the act they it is with the theft of the spears. Kaladin kills because he has to, Lirin stole the spheres in order to maintain his standards of living, and to be and to pay for Kaladin to go to school, again in order for Kaladin to go down the path Lirin laid out for him. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, and I imagine anyone who's grown up with or married a narcissist would either. He's not really a good man, he's not a good husband and he's certainly not a good parent. 

 

Pretty much everything here is wrong. The words "Narcissist, "Sociopath" and "Psychopath" are buzzwords to mean anyone you don't like.  I'm not discounting you're own experience.  Maybe you did live with a Narcissist, or someone who was overly self absorbed.  But you're projecting. 

Lirin loves his children.  He loves the people he cares for.  He loves his wife.  He loves them all.  He loves too much.  He cares too much.  That's his problem.  Why doesn't he just take the spheres and leave?  True Narcissim is a psychological disorder where one cannot be wrong, cannot have flaws, and cannot be challenged or have their flaws pointed out lest they lose their worldview of themselves.  It is a state of supreme feelings of inferiority overcompensated by a mask of supreme confidence in one's self.  Criticize them, and you risk exposing the truth they feel in their heart: that they are not worth anything.  And that thought causes so much pain that they lash out. 

If Lirin were a Narcissist, he would not have stayed in a town where people did not accept him and constantly validate his character and capability.  He had the money to leave.  He stole the spheres, after all.  He could have gone anywhere.  Started a new life.  Found another town, or even moved to a large city and become more important. 

He could have charge for his work.  The people would have respected him more if he had.  People respect what they have to pay for.  But he didn't. All his work was freely given.  He was a doctor who did not charge his patients.  He literally lived off of donations and his wife working.  Your charge that he stole the spheres so he could "Continue to live the lifestyle he wanted" was baseless, because he didn't use them to live any kind of lifestyle.  

Not only that but he told Kal not to come back after going to Karbronth (spelling? I'm an audiobook listener).  He told him not to come back.  How is he going to profit off his son if his son never comes back?  What lifestyle is he keeping up?  The kind where his wife has to go to work because he believes healthcare is a human right that nobody should have to pay for?  I find it very hard to believe that that's a Narcissistic viewpoint.  

As for his reaction to Kal killing that man, I explained it in my last post.  Lirin was broken.  He was broken when Tien died, he was broken when Kal supposedly died, he was broken when he found out his son had become a killer.  Lirin used to fight.  But fighting pushed Rashone to basically kill his two children.  So he broke.  He blamed himself.  And he stopped fighting.  But he sees Kal fighting.  And in his mind, Fighting causes your family to die. And who is Kal's family?  Lirin.  His wife.  His new baby son.  

And thing is, he was right.  If Venly hadn't saved them, their whole family would have been executed.  Kal killing that one soldier would have had his whole family die.  THAT'S why Lirin went off on him.  Because in his mind, Kal was murdering his own family.  Just like Lirin believes he did.  '

If he was a true Narcissist, he wouldn't have been able to handle his wife talking to him in any confrontational manner about his own flaws.  He would have lashed out and become violent to her.  He wouldn't have been able to come to terms with his son, or understand that maybe his son was right to resist.

Clinical Narcissism isn't just a person who is self centered. Lots of people are self centered and don't take other people into account.  Narcissism is a mental disorder that you cannot simply let go of.  It is like an OCD person when you prevent them from doing their rituals.  They get violent, anxious, they stop listening and go into a meltdown.  You can't confront a Narcissist and have them make any kind of change, because the very act of confronting them causes them so much pain they can't deal with it.  And that isn't Lirin at all.  Lirin is just a dominant soul who takes crap from nobody and does what he wants when he wants, and that caused him to lose everything he had, so he let fear cloud his judgement. 

And regarding him being coldly detached, I'm going to assume you don't work in the medical field.  My sister is a nurse.  And you HAVE to be detached.  If you aren't, you collapse.  These people have a front row seat to the most heart wrenching parts of people's lives day in and day out.  Those who aren't in those fields may deal with major sickness, injury or death once every few years or even decades.  These people deal with it DAILY.  The heart ache that comes with it is real.  When a 10 year old girl comes in the ER and she's crashing and you do everything you can to save her, but can't, and then have to go tell her parents? That happens every day.  Watching a father of four succumb to illness and his wife is by his side knowing they have no way to continue paying to live, let alone the doctor bills?  That happens every day.  If you are not able to detach yourself from the situation you burn yourself out, emotionally.  You become numb inside.  Lirin isn't being Narcissistic by being detached as a surgeon. He's doing what he has to do in order to do his job.  Lirin feels very much, he just has the emotional maturity to control when he does.

Which is why Kaladin would have made a bad Surgeon.  He can't detach.  He can't control it.  He has to care.  If he became a Surgeon, he'd be wrung out in a few years, unable to escape the depression.  Every success would feel great, but one failure out of 10 successes would kill him.