Am I the only one who doesn't hate Moash?

[Kered he/him]

I know there’s a bunch of nuance to this conversation. Good arguments on both sides and what not. But when I read this for the first time: 

Spoiler

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

All nuance went out the window for me and I audibly said “you son of a tw*t” in the middle of a Starbucks and caused a 60 year old women to look at me, scandalized. 
 

The vibe I get from Moash in this book is Brandon intentionally attempting to make a irredeemable character. Someone that is “evil” with no nuance, the opposite of a character like Robonial or Taravangian. I get that the Pursuer fills in the that spot, but Moash packs more of a visceral emotional punch because of how long we’ve known him and for his knowledge of Kaladin’s weaknesses. Either for the purpose of having that spiraling arc of him getting worse and worse or to one day attempt redemption.  
 

But as it stands right now, hating him is satisfying. Imo seriously disliking/hating character is just as important as liking/loving characters like Shallan or Kaladin.

[LuckyJim]

I've never really been able to hate Moash. In Oathbringer I thought he was one of the most interesting characters in the series, a character who's desire for revenge and very justified anger at a system that killed his grandparents lead him down a more morally complicated path than the other protagonists. I also really liked that he seemed to be forming a sort of group with the singers that he taught how to fight before the siege, almost like a parallel to Bridge 4, which was really neat as a sort of solidarity between humans and singers who both found themselves on the bottom of their respective social ladders, and I was really excited to see where that went.

Then Rhythm of War happened...

At this point, I can't even hate Moash, I'm more just disappointed at the fact that his arc went down this direction. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for his character, or even that it was a bad choice for the story Sanderson wanted to tell, but it did make me lose a lot of interest in him as a character. That might change depending on how book 5 goes, but I don't really think Sanderson has any plans for him beyond audience hate sink.

[Marabout]

But LuckyJim…. Between OB and RoW Odium took away Moash’s ability to feel certain emotions.  The only two times you see the Real Moash in RoW is when Renarin does his light thing and when the inhibitor reactivates.

That’s  the real evil of Odium, he pretends like he supports Passion but really enjoys making emotionless slaves with his “Give me your pain” routine.

[Spearguy]

I've never hated Moash I'm more just disappointing by him

[bmcclure7]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:30 PM, Marabout said:

I love Moash!

Did he make bad decisions early on?  Sure.

But none of his actions in RoW are really his.  It’s pretty clear that Odium is actively suppressing his emotions.  And while he may have initially chosen to embrace this state to avoid pain, shame, guilt, and remorse I don’t think he realized how drastically this would alter who he is and what he is capable of doing.  

I see Moash like a drug addict.  When he gets a moment of clarity he is overwhelmed by what he did, overwhelmed by pain, shame, guilt, and remorse.  And he desperately seeks out Odium to get another “hit” to take away the pain.

You should consider Vyre as being Moash on drugs.  Capable of doing terrible things he normally wouldn’t. 

Moash should be pitied, not hated.

You sound like a true servant of odium.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Marabout]

I think that those who choose hatred over understanding are the true followers of Odium.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Marabout

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You sound like a true servant of odium.  

 

39 minutes ago, Marabout said:

I think that those who choose hatred over understanding are the true followers of Odium.

 

So either way, I'm a servant of Odium? Damn what a plot twist.

 

Anyway I myself did feel somewhat conflicted over Moash's actions, buuuut then he went down the 'I feel nothing and will make everyone suffer' route and my pity-well completely dried up. Plus unless he becomes a prisoner in Urithiru then he'll never have proper character development while being Odium's personal attack dog.

Like an inverted Dalinar, he's just the worst right now. That's all I can say.

Edited October 23, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, Marabout said:

I think that those who choose hatred over understanding are the true followers of Odium.

 

 You're not choosing understanding. Your choosing to deflect  Accountability. This is odium's 101. The main thing he urges his followers to do. 

 But speaking of understanding let me correct some of your misunderstandings. 

1.  Being an addict it does not absolve you Of any responsibility for your actions. 

 

2.  Moash is not an addict.  He embraces odium's gift because he wants To be free of accountability, Not because he is chemically enslaved.  These are to very different things. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Treamayne]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:30 PM, Marabout said:

I see Moash like a drug addict.  When he gets a moment of clarity he is overwhelmed by what he did, overwhelmed by pain, shame, guilt, and remorse.  And he desperately seeks out Odium to get another “hit” to take away the pain.

You should consider Vyre as being Moash on drugs.  Capable of doing terrible things he normally wouldn’t. 

I could almost support this stance, if it weren't all smoke. Yes, there are elements of the addict in Moash, but let's look at his greatest "hits":

• Attacks Kaladin to get at Elhokar - WoR Ch 84 - Not under the "influence"
• Kills Elhokar (in front of his child) - OB Ch 84 - Not under the "influence"
• Assassinate Jezrien - OB ch 121 - Not under the "influence"
• Kill Roshone/coerce Kaladin to suicide  - RoW Ch 8 - Under the "influence"
• Kill Teft and Phendorana - RoW Ch 104 - Under the "influence"
  • But notably, once the influence is removed, we get this quote - RoW Ch 111:

Spoiler

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

So, only two of five acts of betrayal were "under the influence" of Odium - and we see when the influence is removed he doesn't regret the acts themselves - just "how they made him feel." So, yes, the elements of an addict are there; but he can't/won't recognize his own culpability and doesn't regret those actions taken before and during the Influence of Odium.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[bmcclure7]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:51 PM, Marabout said:

But LuckyJim…. Between OB and RoW Odium took away Moash’s ability to feel certain emotions.  The only two times you see the Real Moash in RoW is when Renarin does his light thing and when the inhibitor reactivates.

That’s  the real evil of Odium, he pretends like he supports Passion but really enjoys making emotionless slaves with his “Give me your pain” routine.

1.  Not being able to feel guilt or pain for his actions does not  Justify or excuse moashes actions.  Even if he can't Feel the wrong this emotionally He should still have been able to grasp intellectually that "Hey,  Murdering my  Friend in front of my best friend in order to drive him to suicide is wrong. " 

2. I'm not sure guilt or pain counts as a Passions,  There are emotions for sure but not all emotions are passionate. 

[offer]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Anyway I myself did feel somewhat conflicted over Moash's actions, buuuut then he went down the 'I feel nothing and will make everyone suffer' route and my pity-well completely dried up. Plus unless he becomes a prisoner in Urithiru then he'll never have proper character development while being Odium's personal attack dog.

Moash`s actions were exactly for the oposite reason - he wanted to help his freind not suffer anymore. He believed (based on his experiences) that the only way to do so is by killing them so that is what he tried to do.

 

Myself, I didn`t like him at WoR with his plans of revenge but in Oathbringer and Rhytm of War I realy enjoyed reading about him and pittied him. He shows a good complement to Kaldin`s arc - he suffered a lot of traumatic events but unlike Kaladin after Wok he did`nt have a (kind of) supportive enviorment and that caused him to develop in another direction.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It is no wonder that you Love Moash, kind calls to kind. 

Please do not attack people if you don't agree with their views. This forum is supposed to be a place of discussion

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Please do not attack people if you don't agree with their views. This forum is supposed to be a place of discussion

Fixed 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

15 hours ago, offer said:

Moash`s actions were exactly for the oposite reason - he wanted to help his freind not suffer anymore. He believed (based on his experiences) that the only way to do so is by killing them so that is what he tried to do.

Uh, I don't think that makes it better, I think that makes it worse in my opinion.

15 hours ago, offer said:

Myself, I didn`t like him at WoR with his plans of revenge but in Oathbringer and Rhytm of War I realy enjoyed reading about him and pittied him. He shows a good complement to Kaldin`s arc - he suffered a lot of traumatic events but unlike Kaladin after Wok he did`nt have a (kind of) supportive enviorment and that caused him to develop in another direction.

I'd say when I really started losing pity for him was when he started interacting with the Singers.

He seemed to believe in Singer superiority to humans but willfully ignored the fact that the Fused were essentially acting just like the Alethian Nobility that he hated.

I don't quite remember if he was having his emotions sucked out by Odium at that point in time but I did not appreciate the blatant hypocrisy in his own thoughts.

[Moash's Dad]

I love Moash too. 

I am just so proud of him. He gets two thumbs up from papi. Im leaving it all to him.

[IheartKaladin4eva she/her]

Horrible. Horrible. I can never feel anything but burning hatred for Moash, after all that he's done. Horrible. He feels nothing for the horrible things that he's done, even when removed from the influence of Odium. 

On 10/23/2022 at 6:00 AM, Treamayne said:

I could almost support this stance, if it weren't all smoke. Yes, there are elements of the addict in Moash, but let's look at his greatest "hits":

• Attacks Kaladin to get at Elhokar - WoR Ch 84 - Not under the "influence"
• Kills Elhokar (in front of his child) - OB Ch 84 - Not under the "influence"
• Assassinate Jezrien - OB ch 121 - Not under the "influence"
• Kill Roshone/coerce Kaladin to suicide  - Ro"W Ch 8 - Under the "influence"
• Kill Teft and Phendorana - RoW Ch 104 - Under the "influence
  • But notably, once the influence is removed, we get this quote - RoW Ch 111:

  Hide contents

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

So, only two of five acts of betrayal were "under the influence" of Odium - and we see when the influence is removed he doesn't regret the acts themselves - just "how they made him feel." So, yes, the elements of an addict are there; but he can't/won't recognize his own culpability and doesn't regret those actions taken before and during the Influence of Odium.

Very well said. I like you a lot. Very good person. Respect. He wasn't sorry for what he'd done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel. Horrible human being. 

[Odiumiumium he/him]

Yeeaaahhh He's terrible and no one likes him, but I still feel like he just needs a spren buddy. Like, Dalinar murdered thousands and burned an entire city to ashes with the specific intent to make sure no one would ever dare live there for generations. He took like a long time to realize that maybe mass murder and genocide weren't very cool. Moash has been at this whole revenge thing for like a few years at most? He only started taking Odium's Antidepressant (Never Fails!*) recently. Dalinar's been chugging the Thrill for years. 

Ok, just to be clear, I do agree Moash is a...How shall I put this...rather unsavory individual, but he still has some depth (like a kiddie pool depth, but still depth?), and enough that I wouldn't be upset if he got a redemption arc that also involves being thrown off Urithiru without an Honorblade.  Ok enough rambling from me. 

[Sequence she/they]

On 10/10/2022 at 8:36 PM, JessK said:

Am I the only one who doesn't hate Moash?

Yes.

Spoiler

Just kidding! 

Spoiler

I sure hate him but that doesn't mean everyone does.

Spoiler

Moash is a sad dude 

 

 

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

42 minutes ago, Sequence said:

I sure hate him but that doesn't mean everyone does.

  Hide contents

Moash is a sad dude 

It is so interesting to final see someone who hates moash and also recognises depth or tragedy in him. Surprisingly rare in the forums, i feel

[hitkay]

1 minute ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It is so interesting to final see someone who hates moash and also recognises depth or tragedy in him. Surprisingly rare in the forums, i feel

The problem with Moash is that his depth has been systematically removed to make him easier to hate.

At the end of Words of Radiance, it was easy to empathize with Moash: he had the potential to be a good man and a great hero, but his (justified) hatred was driving him to make bad choices. He was a foil to Kaladin, whose arc in that book was about accepting that if he wouldn't use his strength to protect those who needed protecting, then he didn't deserve it. And since Moash's fatal flaw is essentially hatred, it made sense that he'd join the forces of Odium in Oathbringer, albeit doing "good" by becoming a Kaladin-esque figure to the rest of his group. Oathbringer has some great Moash moments, like when he abandons his Shardblade to fight with a spear, or when he salutes Kaladin after killing Elhokar, or when he chooses to pull supply sledges.

But Oathbringer begins stripping away what made Moash work. In a complex narrative, Moash was his own man, a character following his own path rather than falling definitively on either side. The textbook example is when he ignored the rest of the battle in Kholinar and focused only on killing Elhokar, while Kaladin was trying to save his friends on both sides. Moash never felt like part of a system: he stood out from the rest of Bridge Four - Skar, Drehy - because he was somewhat autonomous, visually emphasized by getting his tattoo on his shoulder rather than his forehead. But in Oathbringer, he starts to believe that he's a product of a system, which is awful for his character, because the entire point of Moash is that he's so unrelenting that he can never truly be part of a system. His new outlook is completely at odds with his character. And then he's renamed Vyre, which is also terrible for his character because it undermines his individuality. Was this the point? Probably. But it still doesn't work.

And Rhythm of War killed Moash. It killed Moash in the scene where Renarin showed him what he could have been, and Moash couldn't take it and fled. Moash should have been unaffected. He'd made his decision to betray Bridge Four and he'd do it again, that's why he worked. He's not good, he's not evil, but he refuses to compromise his own agenda for the sake of others (and hey, everybody loves Hoid). He's an individual who isn't blinded by hatred but rationally prioritizes it over honor, which is an invaluable foil for the protagonists in a series focusing on the conflict between the forces of Honor and Odium. Moash is understandable, and only by understanding a character like that can we start to see how important it is that, like Kaladin, we don't follow the path he followed, a path that initially seems to make so much sense. So when Moash is confronted with the ramifications of the choice he made and he breaks, his entire character is undermined, because if he doesn't believe in his decision, then the entire point of his character is gone. He's just a fallen hero, a hate sink. It doesn't need to be Moash who kills Teft, it could just be some random new dickhead called Vyre, because we aren't seeing the logical extension of Moash's ideology as a way of demonstrating its flaws, we're just seeing how far he's fallen.

As of the end of Rhythm of War, Moash is a broken man who willingly allowed himself to be blinded by hatred so that he wouldn't have to see the reality of what he'd become, until it's no longer willing and he's literally blinded. This is not a bad character to have in Stormlight and I'm interested to see how his story continues in SA5. But he's not Moash. He's Vyre. He hasn't changed, he hasn't developed, he's been gutted and stuffed full of straw so the reader can delight in watching him burn. It's cheap, it's easy, and it's a waste.

#moashdidn'tstartthevyre

[KaladinWorldsinger]

38 minutes ago, hitkay said:

The problem with Moash is that his depth has been systematically removed to make him easier to hate.

At the end of Words of Radiance, it was easy to empathize with Moash: he had the potential to be a good man and a great hero, but his (justified) hatred was driving him to make bad choices. He was a foil to Kaladin, whose arc in that book was about accepting that if he wouldn't use his strength to protect those who needed protecting, then he didn't deserve it. And since Moash's fatal flaw is essentially hatred, it made sense that he'd join the forces of Odium in Oathbringer, albeit doing "good" by becoming a Kaladin-esque figure to the rest of his group. Oathbringer has some great Moash moments, like when he abandons his Shardblade to fight with a spear, or when he salutes Kaladin after killing Elhokar, or when he chooses to pull supply sledges.

But Oathbringer begins stripping away what made Moash work. In a complex narrative, Moash was his own man, a character following his own path rather than falling definitively on either side. The textbook example is when he ignored the rest of the battle in Kholinar and focused only on killing Elhokar, while Kaladin was trying to save his friends on both sides. Moash never felt like part of a system: he stood out from the rest of Bridge Four - Skar, Drehy - because he was somewhat autonomous, visually emphasized by getting his tattoo on his shoulder rather than his forehead. But in Oathbringer, he starts to believe that he's a product of a system, which is awful for his character, because the entire point of Moash is that he's so unrelenting that he can never truly be part of a system. His new outlook is completely at odds with his character. And then he's renamed Vyre, which is also terrible for his character because it undermines his individuality. Was this the point? Probably. But it still doesn't work.

And Rhythm of War killed Moash. It killed Moash in the scene where Renarin showed him what he could have been, and Moash couldn't take it and fled. Moash should have been unaffected. He'd made his decision to betray Bridge Four and he'd do it again, that's why he worked. He's not good, he's not evil, but he refuses to compromise his own agenda for the sake of others (and hey, everybody loves Hoid). He's an individual who isn't blinded by hatred but rationally prioritizes it over honor, which is an invaluable foil for the protagonists in a series focusing on the conflict between the forces of Honor and Odium. Moash is understandable, and only by understanding a character like that can we start to see how important it is that, like Kaladin, we don't follow the path he followed, a path that initially seems to make so much sense. So when Moash is confronted with the ramifications of the choice he made and he breaks, his entire character is undermined, because if he doesn't believe in his decision, then the entire point of his character is gone. He's just a fallen hero, a hate sink. It doesn't need to be Moash who kills Teft, it could just be some random new dickhead called Vyre, because we aren't seeing the logical extension of Moash's ideology as a way of demonstrating its flaws, we're just seeing how far he's fallen.

As of the end of Rhythm of War, Moash is a broken man who willingly allowed himself to be blinded by hatred so that he wouldn't have to see the reality of what he'd become, until it's no longer willing and he's literally blinded. This is not a bad character to have in Stormlight and I'm interested to see how his story continues in SA5. But he's not Moash. He's Vyre. He hasn't changed, he hasn't developed, he's been gutted and stuffed full of straw so the reader can delight in watching him burn. It's cheap, it's easy, and it's a waste.

#moashdidn'tstartthevyre

Definitely. Moash could have been a faar more interesting character. By rhythm of war, no longer. Brandon's mistake was connecting moash to the contentious lighteyes/darkeyes situation when ultimately his fall has nothing to do with it.

[hitkay]

12 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Definitely. Moash could have been a faar more interesting character. By rhythm of war, no longer. Brandon's mistake was connecting moash to the contentious lighteyes/darkeyes situation when ultimately his fall has nothing to do with it.

This is an obvious point that I somehow missed, thank you. Oathbringer tries to do several things with Moash and doesn't give any of them as much focus as they need, so I wonder if BrandoSando had no idea what to do with him and was trying things out, then just gave up in Rhythm of War and had him surrender to Odium's will.

At one point it almost looked like Vyre would be Odium's champion, but his characterization is so hollow now that I can't see that working.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:17 PM, Odiumiumium said:

Yeeaaahhh He's terrible and no one likes him, but I still feel like he just needs a spren buddy. Like, Dalinar murdered thousands and burned an entire city to ashes with the specific intent to make sure no one would ever dare live there for generations. He took like a long time to realize that maybe mass murder and genocide weren't very cool. Moash has been at this whole revenge thing for like a few years at most? He only started taking Odium's Antidepressant (Never Fails!*) recently. Dalinar's been chugging the Thrill for years. 

Ok, just to be clear, I do agree Moash is a...How shall I put this...rather unsavory individual, but he still has some depth (like a kiddie pool depth, but still depth?), and enough that I wouldn't be upset if he got a redemption arc that also involves being thrown off Urithiru without an Honorblade.  Ok enough rambling from me. 

 If you get to redemption  Arc then maybe I will come around to liking him but at the moment I hate him. Had I met Dalinar before his redemption arc I would probably hate him too.  However I would like to point out one difference Dalinar was cruel to his enemies. Moash is cruel to his friends.

[Returned]

23 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Definitely. Moash could have been a faar more interesting character. By rhythm of war, no longer. Brandon's mistake was connecting moash to the contentious lighteyes/darkeyes situation when ultimately his fall has nothing to do with it.

That's an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought of before. I've always viewed Moash's connection to eye color as being first the seed of his motivations (I'm a victim oppressed by this social/cultural system), then the lever of his proactive efforts (Elhokar is the worst example of the system, but Graves and Dalinar are better, with my help we can all move beyond this stupid hierarchy), then totally forgotten as he commits to an equally arbitrary hierarchical system (look at how much better the arbitrary rulers of the Singers are than the arbitrary human leaders are/have been, as long as you squint at some parts), and finally annihilates him as he chooses to be completely subsumed by that last system (he is at the top of that hierarchy, sort of, as Vyre, but trades away most of who he is and most of his freedom to evaluate the fairness of social organization to get there).

I feel that Moash's involvement in eye color politicking and scheming was mainly a fig leaf over his actions' motivation as satisfying his immediate emotional urges, and seeing him move beyond eye color without changing much else emphasizes how hollow his commitment to that fig leaf always was. In my reading his fall is due primarily to defining the right thing to do as what felt satisfying for him to do without introspection. Again, the anti-Radiant: fetishizing his own feelings (Passions, perhaps?) no matter the specific rationale or consequences to others is what positions him as a servant of Odium, in contrast to Radiants making firm commitments to ideals and then trying to live up to those commitments regardless of their feelings (transient or deeply held).

No matter the setting or conflicts going on, Moash (as we've seen him) is always going to make the same kinds of choices for the same reasons; on Roshar it was eye color at first, on Scadrial it might have been subservience to Ruin or Trellism. Moash pretends to be ideologically motivated, but that's just a pose behind which he hides that he's primarily self-centered, violent, and destructive.

23 hours ago, hitkay said:

This is an obvious point that I somehow missed, thank you. Oathbringer tries to do several things with Moash and doesn't give any of them as much focus as they need, so I wonder if BrandoSando had no idea what to do with him and was trying things out, then just gave up in Rhythm of War and had him surrender to Odium's will.

At one point it almost looked like Vyre would be Odium's champion, but his characterization is so hollow now that I can't see that working.

We'll see what happens in the next book, but my feeling is that Moash/Vyre is going the same route as Amaram. A big villain, importantly placed in events, but whose story is done now that he's served his narrative purposes and so is removed.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Returned
Grammar

[hitkay]

1 minute ago, Returned said:

We'll see what happens in the next book, but my feeling is that Moash/Vyre is going the same route as Amaram. An big villain, importantly placed in events, but whose story is done now that he's served his narrative purposes and so is removed.

I agree that he doesn't seem to have anything left to do, but was he really all that important in Rhythm of War? And why make him blind if his narrative is complete?

Is it possible that we haven't really seen his true narrative purpose yet? Maybe Oathbringer and Rhythm of War are just BrandoSando struggling to find a use for him but wanting to keep him relevant because he'll be important later.