Why didn't Ruin make the Keepers into Inquisitors?

[+robardin he/him]

After all these years, I figured someone would have brought this up or asked Brandon this question, but a casual search in the archives didn't turn anything up...

...but if Feruchemists were so rare at the end of the The Final Empire, thanks to Rashek's breeding (out) programs, and Allomancers comparatively far more common, why did Ruin kill all the Keepers in his Inquisitor Raid on the Synod of Terris to make spikes for Inquisitors he'd already made, instead of making Inquisitors out of the Keepers with Allomancers he could capture? Especially as the mists of Preservation began Snapping more Allomancers into existence!

Each Keeper could only be harvested for one Feruchemical power, and in some cases (like Marsh) a single Inquisitor was endowed with multiple spikes for Feruchemy. Seems obvious that it would be a lot more economical to give a full Feruchemist spikes for Allomancy.

I mean, a guy like Marsh started out as a Seeker Misting anyway - not a full Mistborn - so instead of giving him spikes for most of the FE era Allomantic powers PLUS quite a few spikes for Feruchemy (he exhibits F-steel, F-gold, F-atium, F-pewter), he could have given the same Allomantic / Inquisitor spikes to four Keepers and gotten the same result, but four times over.

Yes, he'd lose the doubled-up A-bronze for enhanced Seeking that came from giving a spike for that to Marsh, but other than that, way more OP of a minion and more of them, right?

I get that he already had a whole host of Inquisitors at his command, but making Inquisikeepers in addition to that first set (instead of personally augmenting them) would have been terrifying. Even if they hadn't had time to learn about Compounding yet.

I like to think that somewhere in Ruin, the Vessel of Ati who had originally been a "kind and generous man" was, in some small Marsh-like way, holding back his full intelligence while reveling in Ruining things. Making Marsh his primary pawn had to be more of a "twist the knife in Kelsier's Crew and the leaders of the human resistance" act than a strategic one.

Edited October 25, 2022 by robardin

[Spearguy]

My best guess is that keepers would be harder to control, for one thing ruin would have less time to completely dominate them, they also could have fended him off by tapping determination, also to Ruin having his inquisitors have more spikes is a good thing, it means it would be harder for them to resist.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

After all these years, I figured someone would have brought this up or asked Brandon this question, but a casual search in the archives didn't turn anything up...

<snip>

I get that he already had a whole host of Inquisitors at his command, but making Inquisikeepers in addition to that first set (instead of personally augmenting them) would have been terrifying. Even if they hadn't had time to learn about Compounding yet.

I like to think that somewhere in Ruin, the Vessel of Ati who had originally been a "kind and generous man" was, in some small Marsh-like way, holding back his full intelligence while reveling in Ruining things. Making Marsh his primary pawn had to be more of a "twist the knife in Kelsier's Crew and the leaders of the human resistance" act than a strategic one.

Keep in mind that the scouring of Terris wasn't Ruin controlled Inquisitors - it happens during WoA before Ruin is freed (when, at best, he can only nudge). So, it seems to me that a bunch of Inquisitors seeing TLR dead wanted more power (and possibly to make themselves into a new TLR) and started slaughtering Feruchemists to gain abilities TLR had denied them. Ruin likely just continued to follow that line after being freed. 

[Returned]

That's a great question that I hadn't thought of before!

We can only guess at the reasons, I think. But I'll submit a few possibilities that occurred to me:

• More Hemalurgy is better for Ruin than less. More spikes = more ability to control the spiked being. To the extent that Ruin cared about optimizing his Inquisitors for anything he may well have preferred optimizing for spikes rather than power.
• Ruin didn't really need more or more powerful Inquisitor servants. The Inquisitors definitely would have won had Vin not drawn on the mists, and once she had no amount of power would have been enough to overwhelm her as she Ascended. Other than that time they always won handily.
• Destruction is Ruin's thing and efficiency isn't. Even if preserving the maximum possible amount of power would have mattered to events (which it didn't, really, as above), Ruin is both fundamentally opposed to that and actively works towards the opposite. Hemalurgy itself is about degrading powers as they're stolen, after all. Ruining a full Feruchemist's power set to get a slightly weaker single power seems like something he'd be up for.
• Compounding is a big deal, and using it with certain traits could potentially have disrupted Ruin's control or plans. Sazed already knew about it, at least in theory, and so it's not unreasonable to think that other Keepers might have as well. I could see Ruin thinking "why deal with that, in exchange for nothing?".
• Ruin was on the verge of destroying the entire planet and everyone and everything on it, and was certain he would succeed. How much point could there be in running up the score before that?

[+robardin he/him]

5 hours ago, Returned said:

That's a great question that I hadn't thought of before!

We can only guess at the reasons, I think. But I'll submit a few possibilities that occurred to me:

• More Hemalurgy is better for Ruin than less. More spikes = more ability to control the spiked being. To the extent that Ruin cared about optimizing his Inquisitors for anything he may well have preferred optimizing for spikes rather than power.
• Ruin didn't really need more or more powerful Inquisitor servants. The Inquisitors definitely would have won had Vin not drawn on the mists, and once she had no amount of power would have been enough to overwhelm her as she Ascended. Other than that time they always won handily.
• Destruction is Ruin's thing and efficiency isn't. Even if preserving the maximum possible amount of power would have mattered to events (which it didn't, really, as above), Ruin is both fundamentally opposed to that and actively works towards the opposite. Hemalurgy itself is about degrading powers as they're stolen, after all. Ruining a full Feruchemist's power set to get a slightly weaker single power seems like something he'd be up for.
• Compounding is a big deal, and using it with certain traits could potentially have disrupted Ruin's control or plans. Sazed already knew about it, at least in theory, and so it's not unreasonable to think that other Keepers might have as well. I could see Ruin thinking "why deal with that, in exchange for nothing?".
• Ruin was on the verge of destroying the entire planet and everyone and everything on it, and was certain he would succeed. How much point could there be in running up the score before that?

More spikes = more control is the most plausible... As for"why run up the score", well, why make all those koloss? That was certainly overkill. But fun.

Inquisitors would have been the perfect off-world minions, though, and Ruin did indicate he already was forming plans for after Scadrial was destroyed as promised. Like the Ire, and possibly other planets, we'll never know now.

And those plans must have included leveraging Compounding, else why give Marsh spikes for both A- and F-atium? Not to mention A-duralumin, which required killing a Mistborn to harvest, as duralumin gnats would have been basically impossible to find.

[Returned]

As I said, they're just guesses based on a few things we've seen. I don't claim to have any real insight into Ruin's mind. But in the spirit of discussion of your provocative question:

6 hours ago, robardin said:

As for"why run up the score", well, why make all those koloss? That was certainly overkill. But fun.

Inquisitors would have been the perfect off-world minions, though, and Ruin did indicate he already was forming plans for after Scadrial was destroyed as promised.

And those plans must have included leveraging Compounding, else why give Marsh spikes for both A- and F-atium? Not to mention A-duralumin, which required killing a Mistborn to harvest, as duralumin gnats would have been basically impossible to find.

The koloss may actually have had a point. They provided a distraction for Vin and Elend, giving them errands to do while Ruin tried to determine where the atium was. And he certainly believed that the atium at least might have been stored in a heavily fortified area which would be defended by soldiers, in which case a large army gathered and brought by Vin and Elend would have been very handy. Who's to say how many is enough? But he could also just have been looking for a good time as events played out, and Koloss do seem like his idea of fun.

I'm not sure Ruin was going to bother taking Inquisitors off-world, or cared to take any minions away from Scadrial at all. The epigraph in chapter 47 of Hero of Ages indicates that he wanted to just destroy all of Scadrial instantly: "but he [Ruin] was still too weak to destroy the world in the blink of an eye as he yearned to do. This weakness was caused by part of Ruin's power—his very body—having been taken and hidden from him." It doesn't matter how good the Inquisitors would be off-world if Ruin wasn't going to take them. But I imagine a Shard could keep a few people around through such an event if he felt like it, so that line isn't really a much of a counterpoint.

We've also got a description in another epigraph (to chapter 64 of Hero of Ages) that states that Ruin believed he'd have tons of minions anywhere he went anyways: "One must realize that, in Ruin's mind, all men were his minions, particularly those whom he could manipulate directly. He didn't send an Inquisitor because they were busy doing other tasks. Instead, he sent someone who—in his mind—was exactly the same thing as an Inquisitor.". Ruin's got as many minions as there are people, anywhere he goes. Why bother to pack your shampoo if you know there is going to be a bottle of it waiting for you at your destination?

As for the "why bother to give Marsh an F-atium spike", I found an (unsourced) WoB on the boards which I couldn't authenticate stating that he didn't-- Marsh got it from one of the other Inquisitors after Vin killed it. I saw that you had a thread touching on similar topics not long after that one so I doubt it's news to you. But even so the larger question still remains: why would Ruin grant such a spike to anyone?

I don't think that Ruin would have had any trouble finding a Misting of any variety, including a duralumin gnat. Deific awareness and all that. But more concretely he knew that Vin was Mistborn and her sister a Seeker; similarly, the mists knew whom to snap.

I'm not saying that Ruin's plan was awesome and flawless, and he did end up losing in large part through his own arrogant miscalculations. But it doesn't seem so wild to me that Ruin chose not to use the Keepers for his Inquisitors, even if we discount his general lust for ruination (which was almost certainly the Shard itself being expressed, not the thoughtful application of a Vessel, and perhaps irresistible to what was left of Ati at that point). That part of his schemes never failed, and that he could have had stronger Inquisitors than he did seems kind of unimportant.

[+robardin he/him]

In addition to the "more spikes = more control of the Inquisitor" thing, it could also just be that Ruin's purpose - consciously or unconsciously, and bottled up for so long in the Well of Ascension - drove him to maximize spike production over efficiency of power gained.

I mean, that's kind of the whole "theme" of hemalurgy as an expression of Ruin, right? Efficiency is lost - the strength of a Metalborn power is lesser to the spike's recipient than it was for the donor, with further decay while out of a body/not encased in blood - while power is gained (to the recipicent - net power is lost).

In that sense, having an Inquisitor with all the (useful) powers with 22 spikes in him (Marsh), each spike representing a Ruined donor, could be more valued, more beautiful to Ruin than some kind of Swiss Masterpiece Edition Inquisitor with minimal spikes for maximum power, like if he'd somehow managed to get Rashek to make himself into an Inquisitor.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by robardin

[Returned]

That's probably the most reliable reason, even if it's not always totally satisfying on a given issue. It's hard to know what Ruin thinks, but we definitely know what it is.

[Treamayne]

13 hours ago, Returned said:

As for the "why bother to give Marsh an F-atium spike", I found an (unsourced) WoB on the boards which I couldn't authenticate stating that he didn't-- Marsh got it from one of the other Inquisitors after Vin killed it. I saw that you had a thread touching on similar topics not long after that one so I doubt it's news to you. But even so the larger question still remains: why would Ruin grant such a spike to anyone?

Source

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

 

Quote

Questioner 1

How did Marsh survive for so three hundred years and *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

Compounding atium. He got a little pouch that one of the kandra gets sent out with if you watch, and then Marsh shows up and he has the pouch.

Questioner 2

<When is that>?

Brandon Sanderson

Go look for the little pouch of atium.

Quote

Questioner

Did Harmony give Ironeyes full Mistborn powers, or anything other than what he has with his spikes...

Brandon Sanderson

Just what he has with the spikes, I believe. No-- okay let's say this: Harmony did not do anything... That doesn't mean that Marsh hasn't done things himself.

 

 

 

 

 

Another thought - He may not have wanted a Feruchemist-as-Inquisitor if some of the spiritual abiities (such as F-Aluminum) would have made it possible to throw off his control (or even just the "not-actively-controlling" stasis). Why risk it (assuning it was possible) when the slaughter was nearly complete before he was free and continuing what was started is more fun anyway. 

Also, it makes me wonder if, after he was free, the remaining Feruchemists were sacrificed via control.

Don't trust anyone pierced by metal! Even the smallest bit can taint a man.

Was Sazed the last surviving Feruchemist because he stopped wearing his earrings and other jewelry? Does it have to be a Hemalurgic charge in the spike? Could the other Keepers' Feruchemically charged "spikes" have let him assert some level of control (similar to Penrod)? If yes, then there's no need to make them Inquisitors, he already has control (or at least influence) there. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/25/2022 at 11:43 AM, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that the scouring of Terris wasn't Ruin controlled Inquisitors - it happens during WoA before Ruin is freed (when, at best, he can only nudge). So, it seems to me that a bunch of Inquisitors seeing TLR dead wanted more power (and possibly to make themselves into a new TLR) and started slaughtering Feruchemists to gain abilities TLR had denied them. Ruin likely just continued to follow that line after being freed. 

This might be it.

Ruin was probably already exerting some influence on the Inquisitors - apparently koloss and Inquisitors were extra violent because of Ruin - but it was probably more a matter of increased violent tendencies in general than specific instructions. Making Marsh attack Sazed was probably a stretch; it's likely that while imprisoned Ruin couldn't have controlled all the Inquisitors like that.

Were there any Keepers other than Sazed still alive when Vin freed Ruin?

 

On 10/25/2022 at 11:50 AM, Returned said:

 

• More Hemalurgy is better for Ruin than less. More spikes = more ability to control the spiked being.

Yeah. Just giving a Feruchemist a couple of combat Allomancy powers wouldn't allow full control. Apparently it takes four spikes to fully control a human (from Era 2). I'm not sure if messing with f-aluminum / duralumin would change the control threshold. Those weren't generally known in Era 1, but there's about two years from the end of TFE (when Vin found out about aluminum, and likely told Sazed) to the end of WoA. Sazed presumably reported to the Keeper Synod so they likely knew of aluminum by this point.

Although I'm not sure I agree the Inquisitors didn't need more powers. Ruin maybe didn't need it, really, because he was using Vin as an agent to look for the atium cache and so didn't really want to have her killed too early - but he did lose Inquisitors. The battle at the beginning of HoA wasn't the first time Vin and Elend had killed an Inquisitor to steal a koloss army.

Vin needed the mists in that final fight because it was 13 against 1, and they were all feruchemically upgraded Inquisitors. But if you know their weakness they are beatable. Kelsier killed one, and I think early HoA era Vin is overall more dangerous than Kelsier (though less precise with some specific iron/steel things).

Edited October 26, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Were there any Keepers other than Sazed still alive when Vin freed Ruin?

Well, that's the debate. . . 

. . .  but to my mind there almost had to be. We know that at the end of TFE, the Synod sent keepers to all dominances to start spreading the knowledge they had kept safe for a millenium. We know Tindwyl berates Sazed for not doing this duty mid-way through WoA and not long after we know the inquisitors have killed the Synod in Terris. There is no reason to think they would have rrecalled those keepers sent on education expeditions between the end of TFE and the inquisitor attack. 

There almost had to be some keepers "out and about" after the scouring of Terris. . . at least until Ruin was freed. Which is why I theorized above about the feruchemical storages being "metal piercing a man" that might have allowed Ruin to find the others but miss Sazed because he stopped wearing his storage minds (going so far as having the rings surgically removed after WoA). 

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Sazed presumably reported to the Keeper Synod so they likely knew of aluminum by this point.

It's possible they already knew. Sazed alludes at the end of TFE that the keepers knew of storages they didn't use much because (without compounding) they either weren't very useful, or they didn't know how to use them. 

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, yeah, there probably should have been at least a couple travelers left. Sazed seems to think he and Tindwyl were the only ones not caught in the Inquisitor attack (thus leaving him as the only one left in HoA) but that might be influenced by his grief.

I kind of doubt the Keepers knew any metals other than the known ten had Feruchemical properties, because Sazed had all the knowledge (not just religions) stored, and surely he would have suggested any metals he knew were Feruchemically viable when Vin is desperately experimenting with aluminum alloys.

Although, that's also strange bc the ancient Terris probably knew more metals than the nine (non-atium) ones. But I guess the Keepers weren't founded until the 3rd century so they wouldn't necessarily have known. Feruchemy was probably common enough in ancient Terris that the loss of all Feruchemists completely devastated their culture and knowledge base (how else could their religion have been lost)?

Edited October 26, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

Possible. . .

On 10/26/2022 at 5:00 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Sazed had all the knowledge (not just religions) stored, and surely he would have suggested any metals he knew were Feruchemically viable when Vin is desperately experimenting with aluminum alloys.

But remember that Sazed wasn't there when Vin was experimenting with aluminum alloys, he was with Marsh and didn't return until after she discovered Duralumin. Also, while I know absence of evidence is not, itself, evidence - we get no indications that he is surprised at either Aluminum or Duralumin as Allomantic metals (no "Hey, wonder if I can use this as a metalmind") which, to me at least, means it is possible the keepers knew they could be a Feruchemical storage (even if they didn't know/understand how to use them). After all, don't they say the Terris are still experimenting with the Spiritual metals in Era 2 - but then they've had their keepers killed off twice by then. . .

Edited February 22 by Treamayne
SPAG

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Possible. . .

But remember that Sazed wasn't there when Vin was experimenting with aluminum alloys, he was with Marsh and didn't return until after she discovered Durlumin. Also, while I know absence of evidence is not, itself, evidence - we get no indications that he is surprised at either Aluminum or Duralumin as Allomantic metals

True, but I was more thinking during all the time between TFE and WoA. But I guess he was away from Luthadel for most of that.

As for surprise, at the end of TFE he's dealing with bigger mysteries (what was the deal with TLR?) and between books there's a year. So we never see him learn about aluminum to see whether he's surprised.

And once aluminum is known to be Allomantic duralumin isn't surprising. Vin had to find the right formula, but the existence of an Allomantically valid alloy would be expected.

-

I do think this issue (what metals the Keepers knew) is why the "warmth is Cognitive" thing couldn't be retconned. Because if the Keepers knew electrum Sazed would have suggested that it was the Allomantic alloy of gold and the "Vin has no atium" part of book 2 wouldn't work.

Edited October 27, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[+robardin he/him]

On 10/26/2022 at 5:00 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, yeah, there probably should have been at least a couple travelers left. Sazed seems to think he and Tindwyl were the only ones not caught in the Inquisitor attack (thus leaving him as the only one left in HoA) but that might be influenced by his grief.

I kind of doubt the Keepers knew any metals other than the known ten had Feruchemical properties, because Sazed had all the knowledge (not just religions) stored, and surely he would have suggested any metals he knew were Feruchemically viable when Vin is desperately experimenting with aluminum alloys.

Although, that's also strange bc the ancient Terris probably knew more metals than the nine (non-atium) ones. But I guess the Keepers weren't founded until the 3rd century so they wouldn't necessarily have known. Feruchemy was probably common enough in ancient Terris that the loss of all Feruchemists completely devastated their culture and knowledge base (how else could their religion have been lost)?

The further you get from the "basic" metals, the harder the metal was to obtain or refine in TFE and I suppose the same was true of pre-TLR Scadrial (where the Terris were a pastoral mountain-dwelling folk, not industrially oriented like the Khlenni appear to have been).

So you have iron/steel, copper/bronze, zinc/brass, tin/pewter, gold/electrum as the likely metals the original Feruchemists would have known about.

On 10/27/2022 at 10:31 AM, cometaryorbit said:

... if the Keepers knew electrum Sazed would have suggested that it was the Allomantic alloy of gold and the "Vin has no atium" part of book 2 wouldn't work.

Well, it would take some time to realize that A-electrum would cause shadows to confuse an atium burner.

In fact, as of TWoA, in theory it should require both someone to burn electrum (a Mistborn, as it being one of TLR's "secret metals" they wouldn't know of any electrum Mistings), AND someone else burning atium at the same time (another Mistborn, as far as they knew). Otherwise how would they know?

Sure, Vin burning electrum would see her own "future action shadows", and with practice that should be pretty useful in a fight, but to think "hey, maybe this would confuse someone else burning a different metal" would not necessarily be obvious - certainly not without testing it, and that would be hard to do.

I think they only realized its potential use as a "defense against A-atium" because TLR specifically mentioned it on the engraving at the Steel Ministry cache in Urteau. Elend even mentally "thanked the Lord Ruler" (not as a general saying, but Rashek specifically) in HoA Ch. 5, while using it as "poor man's atium".

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by robardin

[bmcclure7]

On 10/25/2022 at 11:43 PM, Returned said:

As I said, they're just guesses based on a few things we've seen. I don't claim to have any real insight into Ruin's mind. But in the spirit of discussion of your provocative question:

The koloss may actually have had a point. They provided a distraction for Vin and Elend, giving them errands to do while Ruin tried to determine where the atium was. And he certainly believed that the atium at least might have been stored in a heavily fortified area which would be defended by soldiers, in which case a large army gathered and brought by Vin and Elend would have been very handy. Who's to say how many is enough? But he could also just have been looking for a good time as events played out, and Koloss do seem like his idea of fun.

I'm not sure Ruin was going to bother taking Inquisitors off-world, or cared to take any minions away from Scadrial at all. The epigraph in chapter 47 of Hero of Ages indicates that he wanted to just destroy all of Scadrial instantly: "but he [Ruin] was still too weak to destroy the world in the blink of an eye as he yearned to do. This weakness was caused by part of Ruin's power—his very body—having been taken and hidden from him." It doesn't matter how good the Inquisitors would be off-world if Ruin wasn't going to take them. But I imagine a Shard could keep a few people around through such an event if he felt like it, so that line isn't really a much of a counterpoint.

We've also got a description in another epigraph (to chapter 64 of Hero of Ages) that states that Ruin believed he'd have tons of minions anywhere he went anyways: "One must realize that, in Ruin's mind, all men were his minions, particularly those whom he could manipulate directly. He didn't send an Inquisitor because they were busy doing other tasks. Instead, he sent someone who—in his mind—was exactly the same thing as an Inquisitor.". Ruin's got as many minions as there are people, anywhere he goes. Why bother to pack your shampoo if you know there is going to be a bottle of it waiting for you at your destination?

As for the "why bother to give Marsh an F-atium spike", I found an (unsourced) WoB on the boards which I couldn't authenticate stating that he didn't-- Marsh got it from one of the other Inquisitors after Vin killed it. I saw that you had a thread touching on similar topics not long after that one so I doubt it's news to you. But even so the larger question still remains: why would Ruin grant such a spike to anyone?

I don't think that Ruin would have had any trouble finding a Misting of any variety, including a duralumin gnat. Deific awareness and all that. But more concretely he knew that Vin was Mistborn and her sister a Seeker; similarly, the mists knew whom to snap.

I'm not saying that Ruin's plan was awesome and flawless, and he did end up losing in large part through his own arrogant miscalculations. But it doesn't seem so wild to me that Ruin chose not to use the Keepers for his Inquisitors, even if we discount his general lust for ruination (which was almost certainly the Shard itself being expressed, not the thoughtful application of a Vessel, and perhaps irresistible to what was left of Ati at that point). That part of his schemes never failed, and that he could have had stronger Inquisitors than he did seems kind of unimportant.

Let's not forget identity and connection.  It someone could store those they might be immune to control.  At least while they were storing. 

[HSuperLee he/him]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:23 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Let's not forget identity and connection.  It someone could store those they might be immune to control.  At least while they were storing. 

I'd argue its actually the reverse for identity. Storing identity probably makes you a lot easier to control as, while its not the exact same thing as determination, identity is going to include a lot of the things you care about in order to have something to resist control for. Connection might make it easier to avoid being controlled, but in general I worry about the effects of dampening connection. I know feruchemical powers have some inbuilt safeguards to keep the feruchemist safe from the effects of lowering their attributes too much, but connection is really important to the functions of the soul as far as we can tell.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I'd argue its actually the reverse for identity. Storing identity probably makes you a lot easier to control as, while its not the exact same thing as determination, identity is going to include a lot of the things you care about in order to have something to resist control for. Connection might make it easier to avoid being controlled, but in general I worry about the effects of dampening connection. I know feruchemical powers have some inbuilt safeguards to keep the feruchemist safe from the effects of lowering their attributes too much, but connection is really important to the functions of the soul as far as we can tell.

You maybe right about identity. Still if you had some stored you could tap it. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:21 PM, robardin said:

Well, it would take some time to realize that A-electrum would cause shadows to confuse an atium burner.

In fact, as of TWoA, in theory it should require both someone to burn electrum (a Mistborn, as it being one of TLR's "secret metals" they wouldn't know of any electrum Mistings), AND someone else burning atium at the same time (another Mistborn, as far as they knew). Otherwise how would they know?

Sure, Vin burning electrum would see her own "future action shadows", and with practice that should be pretty useful in a fight, but to think "hey, maybe this would confuse someone else burning a different metal" would not necessarily be obvious - certainly not without testing it, and that would be hard to do.

I think they only realized its potential use as a "defense against A-atium" because TLR specifically mentioned it on the engraving at the Steel Ministry cache in Urteau. Elend even mentally "thanked the Lord Ruler" (not as a general saying, but Rashek specifically) in HoA Ch. 5, while using it as "poor man's atium".

 

 

Possible, but Vin did figure out how to use Zane's own future-knowledge against him. I don't think it would necessarily be obvious to just anyone, but I think Vin would have known. What she did with Zane seems a much harder deduction.

Knowing that atium shadows interfere with one another, then seeing how similar electrum shadows are... I think it's not that much of a leap. Especially when you're looking for new metals specifically to find an advantage because you're out of atium, which is what Vin was doing when she discovered duralumin.

I think they got the formula itself from TLR's storage cavern plate.

Edited November 9, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Minor nitpick to the earlier posters, Ruin was most definitely already exerting control by WoA..it's the whole reason Marsh is acting so weird and takes Sazed to the Conventical to find the plaque and spark the whole plan with the well for Vin. Marsh didn't have other goals there, he was lying haha. 

True, we don't know to what extent he was able to control them, but likely also the reason they all left the building and butchered the staff. He was already making his move. We know he was sending out pulses this entire time in secret history, and it wasn't just to nudge vin or a few crazy people. Imprisoned or not, inquisitors were literally walking Ruin conduits. At least like, toggle an objective on and send them in that direction, not quite yet full avatars of his will, besides Marsh.