Weight of Spheres

[Immortal Platypus]

Would a sphere with stormlight in it weigh more than a sphere that doesn't? If so, do the different lights (Voidlight, Warlight, Stormlight, Towerlight, Lifelight, Cultivation+Odium's light) have different weights? And do the lights have mass? If they do, do they have different masses?

 

Thanks ya'll

[AltonicKeys he/him]

From what I've seen, Lights have no real weight, they're basically spiritual ghost juice. They would weigh as much as lowercase light would.

[offer]

1 hour ago, ImportantQuestions said:

Would a sphere with stormlight in it weigh more than a sphere that doesn't? If so, do the different lights (Voidlight, Warlight, Stormlight, Towerlight, Lifelight, Cultivation+Odium's light) have different weights? And do the lights have mass? If they do, do they have different masses?

 

Thanks ya'll

Investiture is a third side of the matter-energy duality, which means that investiture, matter and energy can turn into one another are in some sense are the same thing.

This means that investiture should have mass, but as far as I remember we never saw anyone in the books noticing it so probably it is very small amount of mass that cannot be sensed without very advanced measuring devvices.

 

In conclusion: Probably technically yes, but not noticable amount.

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

I actually think they might have a mass.

To my understanding, Investiture is akin to matter and energy in the Cosmere; the same principle that applies to E=mc^2 also applies to Investiture. This could be wrong, but that's what I've heard. (This is me coming back after writing a little more: I think this way of thinking is somewhat flawed, but it has seeds of the truth.)

We know that Investiture, in it's own way, changes states of matter. We see it as a "gas" in the form of Breath, the Lights, and Mist (though the Mist might be an invested weather pattern, like the Highstorms, rather than pure investiture). We see it as a liquid in the perpendicularities, and as a solid in God Metals. It just changes on other factors besides temperature.

God Metals obviously have mass. They're made of metal. (I'm not sure where this stands on the Matter=Energy=Investiture thing.) So, if we know that God Metals have mass, why wouldn't gaseous investiture have mass as well?

Now, the Lights don't exactly act fully like a gas. In a way, they act like...well, light. But more tangible, fluid light than what we experience in our day to day lives. If they are more like light than a gas, then I think it's fair to assume that it doesn't have a mass. 

But if you buy into the states of matter thing, then I think it's fair to assume that the Lights have mass. As no one in the books notes that infused spheres seem to weigh more than dun ones, the mass of the Light would be so small as to be undetectable. This could mean that gaseous investiture is just a lot less dense, or something else we don't get yet. Even so, I think it's a valid theory.

As for the differences in mass between the different lights, I'm not sure...I suppose it's possible, but we don't know enough about how Shardic Investitures differ from one another in order to come to that conclusion.

Edit: Ninja'd by offer.

Edited November 1, 2022 by The Bookwyrm

[Frustration he/him]

Jasnah notes that stormlight has mass in Oathbringer.

[voidlight]

When an object has a lot of energy it weighs more, so the same should be true of investure.

[ConfusedCow]

3 hours ago, voidlight said:

When an object has a lot of energy it weighs more, so the same should be true of investure.

And light with smaller wavelengths (ex. violet/ultraviolet light) has greater energy.  So a void light  sphere set to release the same amount of light as a storm light sphere for the same length of time has more energy and thus mass.  

[Treamayne]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:41 PM, The Bookwyrm said:

God Metals obviously have mass. They're made of metal. (I'm not sure where this stands on the Matter=Energy=Investiture thing.) So, if we know that God Metals have mass, why wouldn't gaseous investiture have mass as well?

Now, the Lights don't exactly act fully like a gas. In a way, they act like...well, light. But more tangible, fluid light than what we experience in our day to day lives. If they are more like light than a gas, then I think it's fair to assume that it doesn't have a mass. 

But if you buy into the states of matter thing, then I think it's fair to assume that the Lights have mass. As no one in the books notes that infused spheres seem to weigh more than dun ones, the mass of the Light would be so small as to be undetectable. This could mean that gaseous investiture is just a lot less dense

I think this touches on something. Don't forget that IRL we also have energy states - photons (light), electricity (free-flowing unbound electrons), and plasma (ionized gas):

Sel Spoilers:

Spoiler

We also know that the Dor acts as a plasma

So, it's possible that "contained" Stormlight is in an energy state similar to the visible spectrum of light - drawn out it converts to a gaseous state while not contained - then returns to an energy state while in the surgebinder's body (Kal speaks of feeling energy coursing through his blood and muscles). Leaking investiture from a sphere is emitted as light while leaking investiture from a person is emitted as a gas. At no time does it seem to change from Investiture to Matter or Energy; but investiture seems to have states that mimic the states of both matter and energy.

Wikipedia:

Spoiler

However, because of the large difference in mass between electrons and ions, their temperatures may be different, sometimes significantly so.

Since electrons and ions both have mass, Investiture in those states would also have mass. Photons are considered massless, but that assertion is being challenged by the scientific community. Since we have this WoB (Taldain), it would appear that Investiture does have a confirmed photonic state that is potentially massless:

Spoiler

swieczq

Would someone with enough knowledge be able to use Autonomy’s Investiture if Taldain’s star was seen from his world?

Brandon Sanderson

So I’m on a world and I see Taldain’s star, what you're asking if someone could use the Investiture? Oh, OK I see. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That’s good! You stumped me. I haven’t gotten that question before. I would say yes, if the light particles are reaching you. I mean technically you could use the light from one of those stars to power a solar sail so…

So, I guess the question somebody would have to ask Brandon/Peter during a Q&A or AMA is:

Is Light trapped in a gem in a Photonic or Plasma State, since either could be emitting visible light as the investiture leaks from the gem?

If the former - then light in a gem is potentially massless until it converts to a gaseous state; if the latter, then light in a gem would almost certainly have an imperceptible, but measurable, mass.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[Frustration he/him]

Stormlight in gems cannot have mass as otherwise it would break the gem.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight in gems cannot have mass as otherwise it would break the gem.

Shouldn't that be "appreciable mass?"

After all, we already have confirmation of Axi in the Cosmere and the Makay-im are able to use the Surge of Cohesion to intermeld the Axi of their bodies with that of solid objects, without either being "broken." 

[HSuperLee he/him]

This question is basically like asking if a light-bulb weighs more when its turned on. The answer is yes, but its such a minuscule change you won't notice it.