Break Tank 3: Dueling at the Warcamps

[Elkanah he/him]

Just now, Turtle said:

tbh im uncertain of what i’m even supposed to be doing here, other than trying to kill a td

That's pretty much it. Now all we have to do is figure out who the TD's are and get a lucky shot.

2 minutes ago, Turtle said:

would it be broken if we played to make our faction win instead of an ffa?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure how you would do that. The better strategy is just to find and kill a TD anyway. Your team gets a point and you win whether your team does or not.

Intentionally staying in the game so you can point out Dummies for your teammates is a double edged sword in a game without private messages because there's a good chance someone on the other team will get the kill.

[Turtle]

we would break it if all the tds just claimed right

that would be no fun tho

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

Just now, Turtle said:

we would break it if all the tds just claimed right

 

Turtle, that would break any game....

[Turtle]

Just now, The Wandering Wizard said:

Turtle, that would break any game....

i mean yeah but it would be extra broken bc it would be just hoping you and your partner don’t kill the same td

i think

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

I think Turtle is saying attack the vote protected person, so there would never be a kill during the night, thus breaking the game.

 

Theoretically if we did that it could be interesting. Because the TDs kind of can't win that way unless it goes to outnumber. It'd functionally be a 'who blinks first' sort of scenario (cf. LG9, QF6), but IMO it's a losing proposition - we win individually, and buying time benefits the TDs because they just mark everyone, and then the moment a single Villager defects (which has to happen at some point, due to individual wincons), the kill domino occurs and everyone Village-side loses.

3 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Your faction can't win. 16 people isn't a number divisable by three. So it would be 6/6/4, I think. 

The thing is that your faction doesn't win anyway. It is not a viable wincon in this game. So how do you (I know, Turtle not you but I lazy) really propose to 'make your faction win'?

You sure you not a TD, Turtle? :eyes:

---

K, let's try something:

Aladar	Sadeas
Kas	Xino
Devo (?)
Wiz (?)

Known so far, at least based on claims. I personally don't really care since the TDs know I'm not with them and will kill me no matter what. TDs will functionally have to claim to be with one of these but as long as one of us keeps the running list of faction claims going into future cycles, we should be able to start working out gaps and lies as players begin to flip, or kill TDs and take their partners with them.

[Turtle]

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

The thing is that your faction doesn't win anyway. It is not a viable wincon in this game. So how do you (I know, Turtle not you but I lazy) really propose to 'make your faction win'?

no i mean play so more players in your faction win rather than you yourself winning

like would that break the game balance is what i’m asking

also if it helps i’m blue

aladar’s attackers

so like where are all the slayers lol

edit: also just realized that the fact that the tds can only mark people who have a decent chance of being e!read it means they’ll have less room to hide in later cycles

also no one kill kas

edit 2: this does mean we should massclaim right

Edited November 15, 2022 by Turtle

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Turtle said:

no i mean play so more players in your faction win rather than you yourself winning

like would that break the game balance is what i’m asking

also if it helps i’m blue

aladar’s attackers

so like where are all the slayers lol

I mean, I fully expect someone to be lying at some point. I don't think this table helps Village players right now, but hopefully it'll help someone in C3 or so, if we have more info. I feel like given the informational situation, I'm leaning towards collecting faction claims, but Devo has made a case pre-game for how that could help the TDs.

On 11/14/2022 at 3:15 AM, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

There's some solving. TDs have to figure out which players are most likely to be attacked and then guess randomly who the partner of dead duelists are since it's much more efficient to kill duelists in pairs. Duelists figure out who the TDs are by seeing who votes where for immunity and then trying to kill people to see what happens.

But the way I see it, we're in an informationally poor situation anyway and opponents aren't removed unless you hit a TD successfully, which the TDs don't necessarily want, so I see that as being a mixed bag, but why not. Let's face it, the TDs will be collecting claims in that doc of theirs anyway so we might as well put our heads together even if we win solo!

We know the likely distro is 6/6/4 so theoretically we can have a pure list with two more AAs yet to ID themselves, but I don't know how much I believe this  

Aladar	Sadeas
Kas	Xino
Devo (?)
Wiz (?)
Turtle

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

24 minutes ago, Turtle said:

darn. will think of other ways to break the game :p.

would it be broken if we played to make our faction win instead of an ffa?

tbh im uncertain of what i’m even supposed to be doing here, other than trying to kill a td

edit: also should we claim our faction or no

We could all kill the person being protected but then the game would never end.

There's not really a lot you can do to make your faction win. There's no PMs, so there's no way to signal that you think someone is a TD without the other team knowing. The best we can do is win for ourselves, which counts towards the 3 training dummies killed a faction needs to be the winner.

It's helpful for the TDs to know who's in what faction, since they'll want to alternate marking Aladar and Sadeas hoping to find pairs. It's possible that claiming could help us find TDs but I'm not sure how we'd figure out who's lying out of say 7 claimed Aladars. Since this is a break tank, I say it'll be fun to see if mass-claiming breaks the game.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

I am a ssnake. I will sslide into my claim of slliteration. Sso, ass you have most likely assssumed by now, I am one of Ssadeass' Sslayerss.

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

It's helpful for the TDs to know who's in what faction, since they'll want to alternate marking Aladar and Sadeas hoping to find pairs. It's possible that claiming could help us find TDs but I'm not sure how we'd figure out who's lying out of say 7 claimed Aladars.

My thought was to go off behaviour, and flips, since flips technically 'confirm' a player. I'm not sure why they want to find pairs, though - killing one opponent leaves the other one in the game. You only get the freebie if they kill a TD. Players that look more or less coordinated with others given no PMs in this game should also rise in suspects. And forcing the TDs to make some form of claim to blend in could at least lock them into a specific corner, because the longer you stay alive, the more you have had to either be incredibly unlucky or Evil.

Edited to add: The other issue is you don't kill - you can mark hoping the others will make the kill for you, but if they don't, they don't. Presume this means potentially passive play is not entirely rewarding. They'll need to guide opinion enough to nudge players at a marked target, maybe with a cycle's delay.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Kasimir

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

49 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

My thought was to go off behaviour, and flips, since flips technically 'confirm' a player. I'm not sure why they want to find pairs, though - killing one opponent leaves the other one in the game. You only get the freebie if they kill a TD.

They need to find pairs and quickly because if a killed duelist slays a TD, then the TDs kill was wasted. Killing duelist pairs ensures that every TD death kills two duelists instead of one.

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

They need to find pairs and quickly because if a killed duelist slays a TD, then the TDs kill was wasted. Killing duelist pairs ensures that every TD death kills two duelists instead of one.

But how do they know who is paired if even we don't? All they can do is try to mark someone from the other team and hope we take that player out. Alternatively, they have to guide us to try to get us to kill there. This feels like the sort of thing that can leave a trace if we talk about it in the thread, forcing the TDs to play out their hand.

[danex he/him]

i feel like these writeups are gonna get weird

 because we have speaking, moving players

who are gonna be revealed to be training dummies

looking forward to seeing how mat justifies that 

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

39 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

But how do they know who is paired if even we don't? All they can do is try to mark someone from the other team and hope we take that player out. Alternatively, they have to guide us to try to get us to kill there. This feels like the sort of thing that can leave a trace if we talk about it in the thread, forcing the TDs to play out their hand.

They don't, they just have to guess randomly. All they know is that two people on the same team can't be paired. I'm not sure how the random guessing part would be taken out. If duelists knew who their partners were, it would be too easy to clear people. The TDs would either need to counterclaim a pair and reveal that one of three players are elims or claim each other as opponents, which would fall apart if either died. The TDs could have a scan or something but that's less fun than being able to figure it out from behavior. Maybe TDs start knowing everyone's team and duelists are informed if they attack their partner?

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

They don't, they just have to guess randomly. All they know is that two people on the same team can't be paired. I'm not sure how the random guessing part would be taken out. If duelists knew who their partners were, it would be too easy to clear people. The TDs would either need to counterclaim a pair and reveal that one of three players are elims or claim each other as opponents, which would fall apart if either died. The TDs could have a scan or something but that's less fun than being able to figure it out from behavior. Maybe TDs start knowing everyone's team and duelists are informed if they attack their partner?

This would make some sense, and agreed about the scan issue.

They do guess randomly, but again, as you point out, that potentially leaves them making some dicey guesses. But really the best place to be as Village is to make the stab successfully ASAP and then this isn't your problem anymore. But in general I don't like how dead the thread is and feel that talking is better to try to find TDs at a slightly better than random rate.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

@Matrim's Dice Is there attacker told the difference between an unmarked vil vs a fifty percent elim?

[Chantara she/her]

Elkanah because he was the awkward penguin and voted first. 
 

Tara looked around at both team and competitors. “It’s would help if we weren’t all wearing masks or armor, then I’d know who was on my team.” She thought. But, then again, once things started moving she hoped it would get more obvious. 

[Mat he/him]

11 minutes ago, The Unknown Novel said:

@Matrim's Dice Is there attacker told the difference between an unmarked vil vs a fifty percent elim?

Nope.

[Kasimir he/him]

Wiz

Devo

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

Lehaz wondered why Keredin had decided to stop supporting him.

Well it's not like I've done anything to win his support, I've been just standing for far far too long. Do or do not, there is no try. Last option war is. Fight we do. Train we do. Kill we do not.

Lehaz stands to the full height of his three foot eight frame, "Kinoara my vote has." And with that statement his glorified stick appears in his hand. Lehaz leaps into the fray, wooden stick blurring to the rhythm of bruising.

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Lehaz wondered why Keredin had decided to stop supporting him.

Well it's not like I've done anything to win his support, I've been just standing for far far too long. Do or do not, there is no try. Last option war is. Fight we do. Train we do. Kill we do not.

Lehaz stands to the full height of his three foot eight frame, "Kinoara my vote has." And with that statement his glorified stick appears in his hand. Lehaz leaps into the fray, wooden stick blurring to the rhythm of bruising.

I've just barely settled on a mildly positive read of Devo and you must come and make me doubt it?

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I've just barely settled on a mildly positive read of Devo and you must come and make me doubt it?

Spoiler

 

[The Unknown Order he/him]

Can people not vote in roleplay (or at least do what Kas normally does and include the player name is brackets) in the game format where roleplay is supposed to be non-existent or in spoilers?

[Shining Silhouette he/him]

Um Kas?

As stated previously won’t be on much this cycle.

Do people want me to claim?

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, Shining Silhouette said:

Do people want me to claim?

Your thoughts on that?

Edited to add: I acknowledge it might be an unfair question as you're busy, but I'm curious about your instinctive thoughts on the matter. I'm pro-claiming, Devo is anti-claiming but thinks it's an experiment.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Kasimir