Alethi Origins Theory

[Vailima]

I think it is possible that the Alethi travelled here with the people who made the deal with the indigenous singers of Roshar except as an ignored or second-class citizen amongst the refugee population, and being unrepresented in the negotiation lead to eventual rage. 

This all may be out the gate, but my favourite candidate for that origin culture is First of the First/Sixth of the Dusks home planet. Cultivation was hiding from Odium, feeding the birds and keeping lowkey. Odium probes with the ones above to find her, stuff happens and the perpendicularity on First serves as a portal for people from this solar system to flee to Roshar. The ones above possibly negotiate the terms of settlement in the new Shinovar region, so name it for their planet, and dominate the view of the new land. Trackers from the First settle with this wave, being of course the people who know about and are closest to the perpendicularity. 

Fast forward, and the Ashyn are settling into their new agreed upon home fine, except aviars have flown over the ranges and their future seeing abilities are wreaking havoc on the slow lifecycles of the gods/earth creatures of the singers ancestors. The Singers negotiate with the "Leaders" of the newcomers who are basically a non-representative ruling class, not knowing that these people have different customs and cultures and that they're not binding all of the newcomers with their decision-making and promises. But the bargain reached causes great pain to some of the refugees, having never prodded the forces that lead to their homes' destruction to now losing their aviar and friends, essentially their family members. They leave Shinovar, and their pain and vulnerability makes easy pray for Odiums influence, or for a lesser god of storms to parade as the real "God" in a world of rock, or for "The Rage" to enter a people so used to a harsh nature which requires quick reflexes. The Singers raged in betrayal of the agreement they thought they made, and the Alethi raged in misjustice, while Honor and the Shin have splintered their memories of the past events, perhaps in a bit of separation from the shame of the events, becoming fixated on future purity.

At some point I believe the Humans give up hearing some sounds and the Singers give up dancing the earth into life for a flimsy accord that couldn't stay fixed because of the original hurt from either party not being addressed, and because sacrificing those parts of who they were was unfair as neither made a promise they didn't keep. They will hopefully reconcile these differences, I think with the Horneaters/Herdazians, (basically the mixed cultures who were allowed to continue in the flimsy accord) serving to foster healing and connections between the parties and opening memories with song and dance. Their deviation in speciation will end up being less important than their shared devotion towards cultivation and life, something like that. 

Ok the finer points of this might be crazy and that's okay lolol but the part about negotiating treaties you full know you've not got authority of decision making to keep feels quite possible considering how the topic of colonisation is currently being probed. Even if the rest is nuts haha

[offer]

The story sixth of the dusk take place in the far futue, few hundreds years after SA. The humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago - we don`t know what happend at first of the sun on this time but it was a lot before "the ones above" came there. Also, the aviars get their powers from Patji which is an avatar of autonomy, not from Cultivation.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

5 hours ago, offer said:

The story sixth of the dusk take place in the far futue, few hundreds years after SA. The humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago - we don`t know what happend at first of the sun on this time but it was a lot before "the ones above" came there. Also, the aviars get their powers from Patji which is an avatar of autonomy, not from Cultivation.

Except for "the humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago", I don't remember any of this in any book. 

 

It does makes a lot of sense for Patji to be an aspect of Autonomy, especially given the themes of colonization, indigeneity, and exploitation that The Stormlight Archive and Sixth of the Dusk share.  The most significant thematic difference being that the people of First Of The Sun are beginning the process of destroying their world while the Voidbringers of Roshar must face the realization that they already did irrevocably, irredeemably, destroy their world and are essentially cuckoos in the Listener's nest.

Even if Aviars get their powers from Patji, that doesn't mean Cultivation wasn't, at some point, there, feeding the birds and slumming around in Autonomy's planet without Autonomy's permission, before leaving for Roshar.  Honestly, given how Cultivation and Honor abandoned the Listeners for the Voidbringers, and how Odium forcibly "adopted" the Parshendi, this theory makes a lot of sense and even adds another layer to the deific custody dispute from heck.  How horribly fitting it would be for Odium to do unto Cultivation as she did unto Autonomy.

Even the idea that the accord was a promise that ought not to have necessarily applied to all Voidbringers is an autonomy-honor dispute very much applicable to any treaty and any interaction between colonizers and indigenous.  It would be in character for Honor to see this accord as totally binding and applying to all Voidbringers and all Listeners, from Honor's point of view, such a thing is really no different from a treaty applying to all people of the relevant civilizations regardless of whether each individual agrees to it or not.  Honor doesn't have to be reasonable.

And, well, there has to be a reason why Roshar has no birds other than chickens, and this would explain it so well.  Well done, Vailima.

[Treamayne]

23 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

And, well, there has to be a reason why Roshar has no birds other than chickens

Roshar has a number of bird species - non-Shin cultures use the word "chicken" to name them all because they don't have a vocabulary of the differnt species (similar to how the Koala was called a "bear" when first discovered by the west when it is not a Bear at all - simply because early Colonizers had no concept or understanding of Marsupials and they visually reminded them of Bears). Note that when we get scenes from Szeth's point of view (because most birds are still in Shinovar where they can survive highstorms) you get similes like "He soared up, then dove again, causing the others to dodge like sparrows before a hawk." (OB Ch 98) - showing that the Shin do recognize the different avian species and have a vocabulary to match.

Roshar has no native Bird species because of it's divergent evolution - so all birds are transplants, presumably coming with the first Human settlers.

31 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Except for "the humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago", I don't remember any of this in any book.

Patji information is included in the Epigraph letters in Part 2 of Oathbringer. The timeline for the story in Sixth of the Dusk was confirmed in a WoB and is discussed in the Coppermind.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

40 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Roshar has a number of bird species - non-Shin cultures use the word "chicken" to name them all because they don't have a vocabulary of the differnt species (similar to how the Koala was called a "bear" when first discovered by the west when it is not a Bear at all - simply because early Colonizers had no concept or understanding of Marsupials and they visually reminded them of Bears). Note that when we get scenes from Szeth's point of view (because most birds are still in Shinovar where they can survive highstorms) you get similes like "He soared up, then dove again, causing the others to dodge like sparrows before a hawk." (OB Ch 98) - showing that the Shin do recognize the different avian species and have a vocabulary to match.

Roshar has no native Bird species because of it's divergent evolution - so all birds are transplants, presumably coming with the first Human settlers.

Yeah, but given the sheer amount of time the Voidbringers have been around birds, it makes no sense for them not to have diversified the names.  The Koala may have been called a "bear" by the first westerners to know of it, but it's not been that many generations since and I have the vocabulary to speak of Marsupials.  Something else must be going on here, and the only way this can linguistically make sense is if there genuinely are no non-chicken birds around outside of Shin Kak Nish.

[offer]

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Except for "the humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago", I don't remember any of this in any book. 

 

There are WoBs that tells that sixth of the dusk take place in the space age of the cosmere, somtimes around mistborn era 4. And if you are looking for sources only from the books, in the postscript of sixth of the dusk (in Arcanum Unbounded) it says:

Quote

The events of this story occur farthest down the timeline of any of the stories included in Arcanum Unbounded

 

 

Roshar outside of shinovar has no birds except for chickens* because originally it had only creatures that developed to adapt to its enviroment. The chickens in eastern Roshar were brought there from Shinovar (if I remember correctly Alethi still refer to chickens as animals from Shinovar).

 

* There are geese in the horneater peaks as we learn in Rock`s POV,

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, offer said:

* There are geese in the horneater peaks as we learn in Rock`s POV,

There are also some small birds in the Nightwatcher's valley - Dalinar makes note of them in his respective chapter in OB.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Isilel

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Something else must be going on here, and the only way this can linguistically make sense is if there genuinely are no non-chicken birds around outside of Shin Kak Nish.

53 minutes ago, offer said:

Roshar outside of shinovar has no birds except for chickens* because originally it had only creatures that developed to adapt to its enviroment. The chickens in eastern Roshar were brought there from Shinovar (if I remember correctly Alethi still refer to chickens as animals from Shinovar).

* There are geese in the horneater peaks as we learn in Rock`s POV,

There are definitely bird species other than the Chicken East of the Misted Mountains. A parrot is seen in the menagerie in WoR (Ch 45 and 55), and both Shallan and Lift refer to Mraize's Aviar as a chicken. Felt points out the sparrows found near the Valley of the Nightwatcher (OB Ch 114)

Spoiler

Quote

Shallan poked at the cage, and the colorful creature inside shifted on its perch, cocking its head at her.

It was the most bizarre thing she’d ever seen. It stood on two feet like a person, though its feet were clawed. It was only about as tall as two fists atop one another, but the way it turned its head as it looked at her showed unmistakable personality.

The thing only had a little bit of shell—on the nose and mouth—but the strangest part was its hair. It had bright green hair that covered its entire body. The hair lay flat, as if manicured. As she watched, the creature turned and began to pick at the hair—a large flap of it lifted up, and she could see it grew out of a central spine.

“What does the young lady think of my chicken?” the merchant said proudly, standing with hands clasped behind his back, ample stomach thrust forward like the prow of a ship. Behind, people moved through the fair in a throng. There were so many. Five hundred, perhaps even more, people in the same place.

“Chicken,” Shallan said, poking at the cage with a timid finger. “I’ve eaten chicken before.”

“Not this breed!” the Thaylen man said with a laugh. “Chickens for eating are stupid—this one is smart, almost as smart as a man! It can speak. Listen. Jeksonofnone! Say your name!”

“Jeksonofnone,” the creature said.

Shallan jumped back.

Quote

They moved on, passing cage after cage of animals. Some Shallan wanted to draw, others she concluded didn’t need an immediate sketch. The one she found the most fascinating was also the strangest, a kind of colorful chicken with red, blue, and green feathers. She dug out colored pencils to do that sketch. Apparently, she’d missed a chance at sketching one of these a long time ago.

Quote

Up ahead, a group of small dark creatures burst from behind a tree and shot into the air, clumped together. Dalinar gaped at their speed and agility. “Chickens?” he said. Little black ones, each the size of a man’s fist.

Felt chuckled. “Yes, wild chickens range this far east. Can’t see what they’d be doing on this side of the mountains though.”

The chickens eventually picked another bent-over tree and settled in its branches.

 

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The Koala may have been called a "bear" by the first westerners to know of it, but it's not been that many generations since and I have the vocabulary to speak of Marsupials.

The Koala simile was meant for *why* they would develop an incorrect (or less accurate) verbiage for avian species. A better simile for why that would go unchanged so long miight be the word "bug" - despite centuries of taxonomic classification the general populace will still use "bug" to refer to everything from flies to spiders to worms (the latter two not even being insects). And while we have the vocabulary to be more distinct many people don't bother. Additionally, you might see "bug" referring to something like a solifuge - which is also not an insect (being a type of arachnid related to spiders and scorpions) and I would bet only a low percentage of population would know the term at all (because of it's rarity and a lack of exposure or desire to learn the difference).

Another example that linguistic vocabulary results in distinctions and generalities based on a exposure and cultural need is the word "uncle." Many cultures and languages (including English) only have the one word - but in a culture where the distinctions are more important the language accommodates the distinction. Korean has six words for "Uncle" - they roughly translate to:

• Father's older brother
• Father's younger brother
• Mother's older brother
• Mother's younger brother
• Spouse's parent's older brother
• Spouse's parent's younger brother

But really, the only point is that Sanderson is using it as a part of worldbuilding - just as the Alethi call all alcohol Wine when we would call the various wines Vodka, Whiskey, Rum, etc. Shin Wine is the only variety that would also be called Wine by the readers. WoB
 

Spoiler

 

Questioner #1

Some of it is different from what we have on Earth...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. All of it, actually. Well, not all of it--there's some actual Shin wine that you would call wine.

Questioner #1

So, on Roshar, do they have distillation processes, or do they have some sort of super yeast that can go way higher than the 20% cap?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of what you're seeing we would just call spirits or liqueurs here. They do have some grain based things and stuff like that. They're not making beer, they're mostly making spirits.

This whole linguistic thing is one of those little clues that I embedded for certain reasons that we won't go into. The reason they call everything wine, the reason that seasons... they call seasons and we're like, "Wait! Those aren't seasons!", and things like that... *with some audience nudging* Chickens is the other big one.

(truncated - see link for full post)

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

14 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Except for "the humans came to Roshar thousands of years ago", I don't remember any of this in any book. 

Sixth of Dusk happening in the future is WoB, the Postscript of Sixth of Dusk, and also from implications given the highly advanced spacefaring civilization. As for when they came, Dusk talked a bit about how the arrival of the Ones Above is a relatively new thing.  

Oathbringer Part 2, Second Letter Epigraphs are implied to be from Patji (and confirmed in WoB). Patji being connected to a Shard is further supported in the Drominand System description, which expalined the Perpendicularity existed in an extremely dangerous place on First of the Sun. and Patji is the most dangerous place on FotS.  

Edited November 12, 2022 by Firesong

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The Koala simile was meant for *why* they would develop an incorrect (or less accurate) verbiage for avian species. A better simile for why that would go unchanged so long miight be the word "bug" - despite centuries of taxonomic classification the general populace will still use "bug" to refer to everything from flies to spiders to worms (the latter two not even being insects). And while we have the vocabulary to be more distinct many people don't bother. Additionally, you might see "bug" referring to something like a solifuge - which is also not an insect (being a type of arachnid related to spiders and scorpions) and I would bet only a low percentage of population would know the term at all (because of it's rarity and a lack of exposure or desire to learn the difference).

My point is that we have the vocabularly, whether or not we use it, and the Alethi don't, even after all this time.  It doesn't add up unless it's intentional worldbuilding or just wrong... but from the rest of your post it does seem to be intentional worldbuilding.

@Offer, oh, dang, I must have forgotten that note in Arcanum Unbounded.