Scadrial tech in the cosmere

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

In one of the paper clippings we hear a story of a lady with a gun that shoots spirits.   Pretty convincing evidence of a worldhopper on Scadrial who is using power/ tech from a different world. 

Also given that era 2 is near the same point in time as current stormlight novels I was wondering why I hadn't seen any firearms usage on Roshar yet.  

Given Kelsiers interest in keeping other magics away from Scadrial I wonder how offended or not happy he would be if he found out about someone on Roshar waving some firearms and Scadrial tech around. 

Do you think they genuinely hasn't been someone with access to firearms on Roshar yet or do you think they simply get intercepted by the Ghostbloods before they get a chance to start the rumors?  

[Frustration he/him]

Roshar has a high oxygen environment, off world firearms are probably unsafe to use.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Roshar has a high oxygen environment, off world firearms are probably unsafe to use.

Do we know roughly how much higher the O2 content is on Roshar?   

I never would have thought of a higher O2 enviorment and shooting as being necessarily dangerous together in a world where building a fire is a normal task.  It isn't that O2 is flammable.  Crack a tank of oxygen and light a candle in front of it and that oxygen will blow the candle out.  Saturate a cloth in oxygen and light it on fire and that cloth becomes far more combustible.  

A metal bullet in a metal gun and a case holding all of the powder with a primer don't leave much room for anything to become saturated with oxygen in the firearm itself.  I can see the danger of a hotter round kicking out more of a fire ball potentially catching something around the shooter on fire but again once you have any flame it would have the same issue and Rosharans are not a flameless species.  

The higher O2 content in world also makes me wonder what other mechanics are going on with world hoppers who don't posses actual healing powers.  Supplemental O2 in a person with normal saturation at room air has been linked to actually damage lung tissue and in an environment with more oxygen you find less nitrogen... if Scadrial is closer to earths atmospheric build up their lungs need that balance for optimal lifespan anyways. 

All that aside (because the answer "investiture" seems to fix most things like instantly teleporting an army up in elevation to a point where without magic to stop it they all would have stroked out or down on their own blood via the bends and HAPE) ... this does make me wonder what other powers the 17th shard and the ghostbloods have been lending to their members traveling through the cosmere.  

It also leads to more questions about biochromatic breath and its healing capabilities since we have Vivenna and Vasher both on Roshar and, at least up to my spot in oathbringer, I haven't seen any tie between them and another organization.   Keeping you alive via never aging and keeping you alive via healing have always been a separate thing in the cosmere and physiologically changing O2 content would have effects that should need to be addressed via a degree of healing.  (Assuming it is a big enough difference to make shooting that much more dangerous on Roshar.)

[Quantus he/him]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Roshar has a high oxygen environment, off world firearms are probably unsafe to use.

if Scadrian guns are still late 1800's equivalent they're probably unsafe to use all on their own, by today's standards.  Mildly higher O2 (not 100% or anything crazy) might change the powder characteristics, but that's only going to be bad if the gun and casings are riding the narrow line of Strength vs Weight/wall thickness, and I doubt their bullet manufacturing tolerances are that tight.  But at worst you'd just need to bring/make bullets with a lighter powder load.  That's on par with needing sub-sonic bullets for a silencer, in terms of bullet variant.  

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I'm pretty curious as to whether the Ghostbloods have access to the Southern Scadrian Medallions, I can't remember any particular description of Mraize wearing any kind of Medallion, though that just might be because they'd be hidden under clothes to prevent people from figuring out about them.

Maybe in SA 5 we'll be seeing Southern Scadrian tech being used as the Ghostbloods try to kill Shallan, I'd think that a Chromium Primer Cube would be immensely useful in taking down any of the Radiants, especially since they won't know what a Primer Cube is.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

41 minutes ago, Quantus said:

if Scadrian guns are still late 1800's equivalent they're probably unsafe to use all on their own, by today's standards.  Mildly higher O2 (not 100% or anything crazy) might change the powder characteristics, but that's only going to be bad if the gun and casings are riding the narrow line of Strength vs Weight/wall thickness, and I doubt their bullet manufacturing tolerances are that tight.  But at worst you'd just need to bring/make bullets with a lighter powder load.  That's on par with needing sub-sonic bullets for a silencer, in terms of bullet variant.  

 

4 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm pretty curious as to whether the Ghostbloods have access to the Southern Scadrian Medallions, I can't remember any particular description of Mraize wearing any kind of Medallion, though that just might be because they'd be hidden under clothes to prevent people from figuring out about them.

Maybe in SA 5 we'll be seeing Southern Scadrian tech being used as the Ghostbloods try to kill Shallan, I'd think that a Chromium Primer Cube would be immensely useful in taking down any of the Radiants, especially since they won't know what a Primer Cube is.

This is kind of my feelings on it all.  I envision this goal of Kelsiers to protect Scadrial.  Just as important as not letting foreign magic get out of hand would be to keep tech advancements hidden from potential threats.  Just like the countries of our world don't like it when other countries of our world attempt to steal blueprints of advanced military tech I imagined Kelsier and the Ghostbloods may not be happy if someone was bringing tech into Roshar and sticking out using it to a point where a firearm could be reverse engineered. 

In regards to the O2.  I definately prefer the idea that guns are being kept hush hush to an extent over the idea that science prevents it.  Again, oxygen has to be able to saturate whatever actually flammable source is near by.  There aren't many parts on a fire arm that are flammable thus the combustible nature of a mildly higher O2 concentration shouldn't be an issue.  I get that Brandon is the god of the cosmere and if he wants to wave his hand and it be so then that is totally up to him.  But "because science" is honestly as bad as "because magic".  Messing with gaseous composition of atmospheres to an extent where fire works differently without making fire work differently and keeping everyone's physiology intact is bad cherry picking of physical law IMHO.   (Not that my opinion nor perception of immersion matters at all in the grand scheme of things.)

 

[Isilel]

15 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm pretty curious as to whether the Ghostbloods have access to the Southern Scadrian Medallions, I can't remember any particular description of Mraize wearing any kind of Medallion, though that just might be because they'd be hidden under clothes to prevent people from figuring out about them.

 

Given who their boss is, they surely have access to something better than the Southern medallions - like medallions for powers that SoScads don't yet know how to make, with more than 3 abilities, etc. I wouldn't expect Kelsier to outfit them with the Bands of Mourning, nor with unsealed metalminds that they can re-fill themselves, but otherwise it is a fair game. They may also have hemalurgic spikes. I am sure that's what Mraize did to poor Gereh.

And speaking of Mraize in particular, I am certain that his ability to easily and quickly insinuate himself into groups of people despite his memorable appearance and, according to Shallan, mediocre acting skills, is due to a medallion or a spike.

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I never would have thought of a higher O2 environment and shooting as being necessarily dangerous together in a world where building a fire is a normal task.  It isn't that O2 is flammable. 

It's not about oxygen's combustibility; it's about how flame behaves in a high oxygen environment. Afterall, that's why we have things like Oxy-Acetylene torches - to take advantage of higher concentrations of Oxygen causing a fire to burn hotter and faster.

Also noted in Khriss' essay:

Spoiler

Visitors to Roshar should know that fire will respond unusually because of the high-oxygen environment, which I believe is part of the reason that an alternative light source was developed during the early days of humanoid life on the planet.

As far as firearms are concerned - note that the "flash" in "muzzle flash" is fire being ejected from the barrel along with the heated gases (that actually propel the bullet). That may or may not be affected by a high oxygen environment - discussed in a stack exchange here.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It's not about oxygen's combustibility; it's about how flame behaves in a high oxygen environment. Afterall, that's why we have things like Oxy-Acetylene torches - to take advantage of higher concentrations of Oxygen causing a fire to burn hotter and faster.

Also noted in Khriss' essay:

  Hide contents

Visitors to Roshar should know that fire will respond unusually because of the high-oxygen environment, which I believe is part of the reason that an alternative light source was developed during the early days of humanoid life on the planet.

As far as firearms are concerned - note that the "flash" in "muzzle flash" is fire being ejected from the barrel along with the heated gases (that actually propel the bullet). That may or may not be affected by a high oxygen environment - discussed in a stack exchange here.

Interesting link for sure.  I guess a lot of roshar (or what I have seen of it) doesn't seem to be full of flammable plant life anyways.   Not sure if even a hot casing would hurt much.  Again the oxygen has to be used with something that is flammable to add anything to a flame and it would have to be highly concentrated there.  Smoking while using oxygen doesn't lead to an exploding tank... just that all the clothes and hairs that have been saturated in the O2 ignite and spread wicked fast (seen a few burnt up faces from that one... awful smell).  

I can see that shooting in specific areas might not be safe but again I really am curious about peoples thoughts on Kel and the ghostbloods being cool with firearms use or if you think they would go after it the way they sort of do other magics?  

As for the actual concentration of O2 on Roshar I would be curious to how high just to think of the physiological implications for world hoppers bodies designed to be in that enviorment... 

We already have the spren bond making world hopping for a radiant difficult.  Add onto that this idea that native rosharans are born and adapted to needing higher O2... they will have to have supplementation for that in the future surely.  A bit more evidence to my thoughts that Roshar will end up being the defensive party in the first planet vs planet story lines.  

[Frustration he/him]

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Interesting link for sure.  I guess a lot of roshar (or what I have seen of it) doesn't seem to be full of flammable plant life anyways.   Not sure if even a hot casing would hurt much.  Again the oxygen has to be used with something that is flammable to add anything to a flame and it would have to be highly concentrated there.  Smoking while using oxygen doesn't lead to an exploding tank... just that all the clothes and hairs that have been saturated in the O2 ignite and spread wicked fast (seen a few burnt up faces from that one... awful smell).  

I can see that shooting in specific areas might not be safe but again I really am curious about peoples thoughts on Kel and the ghostbloods being cool with firearms use or if you think they would go after it the way they sort of do other magics?  

As for the actual concentration of O2 on Roshar I would be curious to how high just to think of the physiological implications for world hoppers bodies designed to be in that enviorment... 

We already have the spren bond making world hopping for a radiant difficult.  Add onto that this idea that native rosharans are born and adapted to needing higher O2... they will have to have supplementation for that in the future surely.  A bit more evidence to my thoughts that Roshar will end up being the defensive party in the first planet vs planet story lines.  

Rosharans don't need the higher oxygen levels they just have them. It might take a while to acclimate but it would be fine.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Rosharans don't need the higher oxygen levels they just have them. It might take a while to acclimate but it would be fine.

Do we have any sources for this?  

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do we have any sources for this?  

The fact that Ashynites could survive without any alterations. So atmospheric oxygen has to be below 30% which is where it becomes toxic to humans.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The fact that Ashynites could survive without any alterations. So atmospheric oxygen has to be below 30% which is where it becomes toxic to humans.

So it probably isn't such a big issue for the shooting of guns.  

As far as physiological necessities there is a huge difference between giving the body too much O2 and too little.  30% is about the equivalent of 2.5L of O2 delivered on top of our normal 21%.  For healths sake we can go up to 100% delivered O2 for a period of time and it actually be greatly helpful (though we deliver this usually with a flow high enough to cause pressure to make up for the fact that we have washed out all of the denser nitrogen from your lungs.  

But there is a huge difference between normally being on 21% and bumping to 30% and being 21% and only receiving 12% (the real pillow therapy there).  

Unless Rosharans were created for a 21% O2 enviorment and then never once evolved over thousands of years ... even humans on earth adapt when at elevation.  Run at 12000 feet and you are a natural blood doper compared to someone doing the same workout at sea-level.  

Going up in O2 by 9% might slowly damage your lungs and shorten your lifespan but not nearly as much as going down 9% from a persons baseline.  (Folks who are on 2L baseline last a lot less time when taken off than folks who get 2L put on who don't need it).

Again I can accept the line of "because magic" when I have to.  

As far as fire and gun powder I imagine 30% vs 21% wouldn't make as much of a difference as if it was like 40-50%