Long Game 91: A Fresh Start in Shinovar

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

And you accuse my points of being weak :P. Sorry, but that's what, the only thing you've ever read me elim for, broadly speaking? It's no better for me to respond to that point than no point at all, imo. Maybe when I flip village you'll stop saying that about me  

It was right the last two times, and you acknowledged as well it's a problem with E!you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do think I'm not seeing the connection case, but I've already said I felt it needed to be done so I think my view on that matter washes out.

I could also say the same back to you: maybe when I flip Village this time, just as I did in LG89, you'll figure your D1 guts aren't reliable when it comes to me. 

But let's face it, that just lowers the tone of the conversation because it starts to become a 'no u' fight.

I've said what I'm saying, and that's just where my views are right here and right now. You're welcome to change my mind on it, or not if you feel it's a waste of your time. I see you're currently leaning towards the latter, which is fine. You're also welcome to start a train on me if you feel that's the correct thing for you to do. We both agree this is how the game should be played, so I don't see a problem with my being okay with this.

[---]

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

werk werk.

angelica

4 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

naur

aussie wannabe

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

interesting can be a scumtell on mu, by the way :p.

don't fall for that old wives tale smh

Anyways has the D1 meta already changed that our first posts aren't about distribution and whatnot? smhsmh

Also @shining player meta/playstyle change can be a tool to use, but most of the time people don't know how to accurately use the tool, and therefore should atay away from it. 

[Elkanah he/him]

41 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Does being Elim count? :eyes:

 Not usually

41 minutes ago, The Bookwyrm said:

I haven't read all of these posts that magically appeared while I was gone.

Mat. He seems to be looking for proof in something that isn't relevant, which is suspicious.

I realize this thread is exploding like an egg in a microwave, but I'd really like to hear more about this. I don't think Mat suspecting people of working together is indicative of him being Tukari. I recognize that Kas has experience, other reasons, and a little trauma that support his suspicion; but do you have any support for this other than that Kas is suspicious of him? Please feel free to take the time you need to catch up on the thread, but I'm eager to know if there is more to this.

Being a bit blunt, this is the most suspicious post I've seen this game and there's not a lot in it. It feels like you were looking for an opportunity to be present in thread and solidify a lynch without being noticed. You are currently my top suspect and I might vote for you if we ever hear from Alvron. 

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Elkanah said:

Being a bit blunt, this is the most suspicious post I've seen this game and there's not a lot in it. It feels like you were looking for an opportunity to be present in thread and solidify a lynch without being noticed. You are currently my top suspect and I might vote for you if we ever hear from Alvron. 

Why not just vote for him if you think he's your top suspect?

Or let me rephrase this: what about Alv makes you think that a statement like "I'm not going to unvote Alv until Alv shows up" is going to one way or another alter his calculations towards you?

I think my problem with Bookwyrm is just that part of me feels like a five player team should have reined this in more. Part of me also recognises that 80% of my QF63 problems came from arguing that a five player team should've reined everything in a lot more except that didn't happen, and I was looking at the wrong layer, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Mat (4): Shining, Kas, Insanity, Bookwyrm
Wizard (1): Archer
TUN (3): Stick, Szeth, Mat
Alvron (1): Elkanah
Araris (1): TUN
Bookwyrm (4): JNV, Wizard, Araris, Xino

My my this thread sure is going fast isn't it :P.

Whoops almost got my post chomped there 

Between TUN and Bookwyrm, I'm going to vote Bookwyrm.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Between TUN and Bookwyrm, I'm going to vote Bookwyrm.

You are casting a self-preservation vote even though there are *checks watch* nearly 36 hours left in the cycle?

[Mat he/him]

8 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It was right the last two times, and you acknowledged as well it's a problem with E!you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do think I'm not seeing the connection case, but I've already said I felt it needed to be done so I think my view on that matter washes out.

I guess I was just surprised when you said you were holding your cards to your chest, making me think you had something other than the same thing again. And I mean, sure, it has been right, but I also think I've been more proactive than LG90? My vote has been more fluid, I made a read and a case on something, both sooner than that game. So yeah, not much I can say.

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I think my problem with Bookwyrm is just that part of me feels like a five player team should have reined this in more.

Do you not have this problem with e!me? Or would you argue that the reigning is the Bookwyrm train.

Why does the voting feel like EoD already xD

Edit: @Araris Valerian xino doesn't have any votes on him, so that's definitely not a self pres vote :P.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Elkanah he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Why not just vote for him if you think he's your top suspect?

Or let me rephrase this: what about Alv makes you think that a statement like "I'm not going to unvote Alv until Alv shows up" is going to one way or another alter his calculations towards you?

I think my problem with Bookwyrm is just that part of me feels like a five player team should have reined this in more. Part of me also recognises that 80% of my QF63 problems came from arguing that a five player team should've reined everything in a lot more except that didn't happen, and I was looking at the wrong layer, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm hiding behind my silly pokevote to try to not just join a train on someone. I really do want to hear what they want to say. It's taking everything I have to keep these brakes intact. although, given Xino's vote tally, I would prefer to lynch Bookwyrm over Mat. Alvron 

I guess brakes are overrated

 

Edit:

3 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

You are casting a self-preservation vote even though there are *checks watch* nearly 36 hours left in the cycle?

This is a good point. Still, I'll leave my vote as posted. maybe it will add a little weight to my question.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Elkanah

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Edit: @Araris Valerian xino doesn't have any votes on him, so that's definitely not a self pres vote :P.

All young folks look alike, okay?

I was originally thinking a self-pres vote this early in the day is kinda villagery, since an elim would probably want to de-escalate things if possible. Now I'm not sure what to think, though I would say the fact that there are still nearly 36 hours left in the cycle means that maybe everyone shouldn't be jumping onto wagons yet? I guess since we have more than 2 it's not the worst thing.

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Do you not have this problem with e!me? Or would you argue that the reigning is the Bookwyrm train.

Oh. Right. No, I'm not actually looking at the train.

Just like the kayana fourth vote on you, and the way he jumped on and off Insanity. Part of me thinks that a team would've been "no don't do this." I don't know how much to attribute to Bookwyrm's nature and how much to Turtle being handsoff in your game. Again, maybe this means I'm too absurdly present in an Elim doc, or a bit too willing to ask things of teammates, but I just struggle to see Bookwyrm's team being ok with what he's done so far. I nearly reflex unvoted you as a response to that vote, that's just how kayana it was in my eyes,

But as I pointed out to Elk, truth to be told that kind of happened in QF63 as well so I don't know if the lesson I draw from that game should be to just take the direct layer with newer players, not just Turtle, since maybe I'm overthinking what I should and did find obviously suspicious before rationalising that way.

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I guess I was just surprised when you said you were holding your cards to your chest, making me think you had something other than the same thing again. And I mean, sure, it has been right, but I also think I've been more proactive than LG90? My vote has been more fluid, I made a read and a case on something, both sooner than that game. So yeah, not much I can say.

Ah, sorry to disappoint. I will say this reaction does improve my read of you somewhat in that you were more willing to ascribe a negative response to my doing the same thing, because fundamentally it's the same thing, my D1 MO. I like to get reactions and sometimes I feel if I put my thoughts out too early, it's just not as informative. It's the reason behind a lot of my D1 naked voting, at the very least. You were more ready to explain it away in LG90, so I guess that's a positive point in comparison. Mat for the moment, I think.

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Edit: @Araris Valerian xino doesn't have any votes on him, so that's definitely not a self pres vote :P.

Ngl by this point I feel that Araris is pulling some sort of character playstyle thing where he lies all game in the thread. Sort of like Honest Drake.

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

All young folks look alike, okay?

I was originally thinking a self-pres vote this early in the day is kinda villagery, since an elim would probably want to de-escalate things if possible. Now I'm not sure what to think, though I would say the fact that there are still nearly 36 hours left in the cycle means that maybe everyone shouldn't be jumping onto wagons yet? I guess since we have more than 2 it's not the worst thing.

Oh. Nevermind  

[Mat he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Oh. Right. No, I'm not actually looking at the train.

Just like the kayana fourth vote on you, and the way he jumped on and off Insanity. Part of me thinks that a team would've been "no don't do this." I don't know how much to attribute to Bookwyrm's nature and how much to Turtle being handsoff in your game. Again, maybe this means I'm too absurdly present in an Elim doc, or a bit too willing to ask things of teammates, but I just struggle to see Bookwyrm's team being ok with what he's done so far. I nearly reflex unvoted you as a response to that vote, that's just how kayana it was in my eyes,

But as I pointed out to Elk, truth to be told that kind of happened in QF63 as well so I don't know if the lesson I draw from that game should be to just take the direct layer with newer players, not just Turtle, since maybe I'm overthinking what I should and did find obviously suspicious before rationalising that way.

So you're saying you willfully did post analysis over VC analysis

Edited November 21, 2022 by Matrim's Dice
For legal reasons this is a joke

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Mat (3): Shining, Insanity, Bookwyrm
Wizard (2): Archer, Xino
TUN (3): Stick, Szeth, Mat
Araris (1): TUN
Bookwyrm (4): JNV, Wizard, Araris, Elkanah

9 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

All young folks look alike, okay?

I was originally thinking a self-pres vote this early in the day is kinda villagery, since an elim would probably want to de-escalate things if possible. Now I'm not sure what to think, though I would say the fact that there are still nearly 36 hours left in the cycle means that maybe everyone shouldn't be jumping onto wagons yet? I guess since we have more than 2 it's not the worst thing.

What if we made it more than 3 

Bookwyrm Wizard

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

So you're saying you willfully did post analysis over VC analysis

You say that as if I didn't do...pages....of post analysis...in your QF... or in LG89... :eyes:

Gotta learn new tricks to keep up with you young'uns.

And I feel VC analysis is more helpful with a flip, so I almost never do it D1 unless I see a vote that catches my attention. Bookwyrm's vote meets that criteria, yeah, but it's early D1 so it doesn't feel protective, just opportunistic.

Edited to add: Nevermind I just saw that edit.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Kasimir

[---]

@kas I'm reserving judgement on Mat for the most part, other than
 - A lot of what he has said matches up with my gut instincts right now (implying theoretical villagery pov)
 - he feels more confrontational and aggressive than he needs to be (implying theoretical villagery comfort and lack of care for making enemies in thread) 

But also that those reads/actions mat has thrown out, despite being my first instinct for some of them as well, are partly opportunistic- especially the grouping of Insanity and Bookwyrm, when i think regardless of alignment, they're friends obviously outside of this, and therefore no one should look into their interactions that much. 

I don't know if your claim or reactivity is that AI. We recently got off a LG with him as an elim, and he wasn't exclusively reactive there. your view of him being reactive could be a villager relaxing and playing softer because they had a hard elim game before it. 

Then again mat thinks he been proactive so that's pretty irrelevant. 

Regardless, Mat can join turtle in the pile of people I'm not worrried about, since if they are town they will make it obvious before too long.

Before I get comments, being aggressive/confrontational isn't incompatible with being reactive.

[Elkanah he/him]

Just now, xinoehp512 said:

Mat (3): Shining, Insanity, Bookwyrm
Wizard (2): Archer, Xino
TUN (3): Stick, Szeth, Mat
Araris (1): TUN
Bookwyrm (4): JNV, Wizard, Araris, Elkanah

What if we made it more than 3 

Bookwyrm Wizard

We could summon a wild Alvron!

Bookwyrm Wizard

[Mat he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: Nevermind I just saw that edit.

It's a joke for the reasons you said, yeah  Expecting VC analysis a quarter of the way into D1 wouldn't be fair

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

I'm fine with a tie.

Ties help reveal alignments.

[Mat he/him]

We are a quarter of the way through the cycle  

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

@kas I'm reserving judgement on Mat for the most part, other than
 - A lot of what he has said matches up with my gut instincts right now (implying theoretical villagery pov)
 - he feels more confrontational and aggressive than he needs to be (implying theoretical villagery comfort and lack of care for making enemies in thread) 

But also that those reads/actions mat has thrown out, despite being my first instinct for some of them as well, are partly opportunistic- especially the grouping of Insanity and Bookwyrm, when i think regardless of alignment, they're friends obviously outside of this, and therefore no one should look into their interactions that much. 

I don't know if your claim or reactivity is that AI. We recently got off a LG with him as an elim, and he wasn't exclusively reactive there. your view of him being reactive could be a villager relaxing and playing softer because they had a hard elim game before it. 

Then again mat thinks he been proactive so that's pretty irrelevant. 

Regardless, Mat can join turtle in the pile of people I'm not worrried about, since if they are town they will make it obvious before too long.

Before I get comments, being aggressive/confrontational isn't incompatible with being reactive.

Thanks. I'm leaning suspend judgement at the moment, because I think Mat was more willing to jump the gun on my admittedly bad habit of withholding reasons D1 than he was in LG90, so I would concur with the overall position.

I'd actually say I found him pretty reactive in that LG - which is where I am not sure if my judgements map well over to yours. Not exclusively so, but it has been a two game trend (yes Mat, I know, two games.) I don't think that's relevant here at this juncture anymore as this isn't a live issue though I'd still be curious about Stick's thoughts on the matter, so I don't think it's worth explicating the difference.

4 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

It's a joke for the reasons you said, yeah  Expecting VC analysis a quarter of the way into D1 wouldn't be fair

Thanks >>

1 minute ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

I'm fine with a tie.

Ties help reveal alignments.

@Alvron :eyes:

But also, ehhhhhhh kinda maybe ish sorta. I like them better mid-cycle to EoD than I do at actual EoD. Though my views on that have shifted.

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

Yes, but ties are useful at any point, though I can't explain why.

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

But also, ehhhhhhh kinda maybe ish sorta. I like them better mid-cycle to EoD than I do at actual EoD. Though my views on that have shifted.

I do also prefer mid-cycle than EoD ties, though EoD ties can be equally revealing. 

Kas

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Ties help reveal who is likely to defend who. Leading to more paths and useful points of data. Rather than a handful of weak poke votes. That's kinda my view on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shining Silhouette he/him]

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

The rest of you non-Silho lot! If you look! Dishonour on you, dishonour on your family, dishonour on your COW! >:

What he said! ^^

2 hours ago, The Unknown Novel said:

Is there anybody who legitimately isn't looking in these?

To TUN:

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If your name's not TUN and you're looking here

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GET OUT

...

AND DISHONOR ON YOUR COW

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@TUN HOW DARE YOU

WHAT ARE YOU INSINUATING

THESE PMS ARE PRIVATE AND SECURE

 

 

To Kas:

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Interesting! Thanks for your thoughts—they're a pleasure to read and always give me lots to think about

 

 

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Jet-son-Blanc stared at the blade, buried in the earth halfway to the hilt. The cursed blade.

He still didn't regret his choice. But... it was hard to be grateful to an object that had made his life so miserable.

[Elkanah he/him]

I still think Shining and Insanity's votes on Mat are weird. I bet Kas is the only one with more posts than Mat this cycle, and I see both of you lurking. What are your thoughts? Is there a reason outside of summoning Alv for keeping your votes on Mat?

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

Tweedle-son-son-Dumb decided now was a good time to eat his rock. Looking at the grinning smile only egged him on to eating it. "Yummy! Crunch! Delcious!"

"Who are you O grinning one?"

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

GAAAAAH this is frustrating.

I voted Mat because he saw something suspicious from his POV, and I had a hard time empathizing. He's doing the exact same thing I did, so my vote isn't really justified.

You all keep posting faster than I can keep up!

I need to re-read this thread so I know what the heck happened, and so I can make my own reads that are based on more than a flimsy assumption.