Frustration he/him Posted November 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Also, sorry for my density, but what's CR? It's just an acronym for the Cognitive Realm. (Don't worry I was confused to when I first heard about it.) 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Actually, can someone get size estimates for the South Scadrian warships? The large ones are pretty big, easily cruise ship sized, given the one the Set had in BoM. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Oathgates don't go to Scadrial. They can be moved. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: And the last one, portals are effective but they require a lot of Stormlight, Given that Bondsmiths are required to make them I don't think Stormlight is an issue. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Guns-an invention that is limited to Scadrial and also vital-will be useful. For that matter, so will shrapnel and incindenary grenades, Allomantic grenades, and machine guns. I thought you said incendiary rounds for a second, and I cannot express how funny I found that. The post RoW discussion had several pages about incendiary rounds. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Bullets are considered able to break Shardplate, especially ones delivered with the consistency and velocity of machine gun-fired bullets. Aluminum machine guns might actually be a problem for a few orders of knights. Especially those without means to create cover or get out of range like Edgedanncers or Dustringers. They actually pose a decent threat to Bondsmiths with those. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Fullborn. Irregardless of how you get them, they're possible, and unfairly powerful. Well there's really only one way now that Hemalurgy can't compound without a hack and modern souls reject that number of spikes. And that's the bands. 36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: It's a tank that can move faster than anything in the Cosmere besides light, So that's not entirely true. There are some hard limits to compounding, they likely won't be able to run at more than 200 mph, and even if they did it would take so long to get enough steel to do that that it won't be worth it. Spoiler Questioner I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations? Brandon Sanderson They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that. Questioner Bodily, their bodies-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations. Questioner If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race? Brandon Sanderson Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8380        Edited November 24, 2022 by Frustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 24, 2022 Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Well there's really only one way now that Hemalurgy can't compound without a hack and modern souls reject that number of spikes. And that's the bands. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Nicrosil Compounder. If you want me to, I can find the post where I talked about this at length. Also, in theory, Harmony could create one. I'm not super certain on that one, though. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Aluminum machine guns might actually be a problem for a few orders of knights. Especially those without means to create cover or get out of range like Edgedanncers or Dustringers. They actually pose a decent threat to Bondsmiths with those. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Oh yeah, Scadrial has electroyisis or whatever it's called which means they can mass-produce aluminum, a metal that blocks shards, prevents teleportation, et cetera.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: They can be moved. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: They can? Wow, that changes a lot. Still, I'm assuming it's hard to move large objects like that effectively, especially when constant harrying by your super-fast, very stealthy enemy is happening. Another thing I want to mention: bullets fired from something like Vindication II or Steel Survivor will hurt. Like with Bloodmakers, healing is important but shrapnel and high-velocity bullets hurt. Like, permanent trauma hurt. You could potentially knock out Radiants with those. Also, how plausible would it be that Coinshots with F-TIn could snipe Shardplate visors? Like, redirect all the aluminum machine gun bullets at the visor. Or direct shrapnel through the visor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted November 24, 2022 Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Nicrosil Compounder. If you want me to, I can find the post where I talked about this at length. Also, in theory, Harmony could create one. I'm not super certain on that one, though. First, apologies for not replying in length to the previous post of yours @Flaming Coinshot, I have less time then I would hope. All Nicrosil Compounder would have is that, compounding Nicrosil, unless they can interact with medallions in such a way to get those abilities. However, medallions are weaker in this regard then Hemalurgy is, so I don't think that would work. Please do find the post, I would be curious how you intend it to work. Well, Shardic intervention could do many things, so we have been typically avoiding it in these discussions (i.e. creating more Bondsmiths, or more Yelig-Nars on Roshar end, or creating Fullborn on Scadrial end). 12 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Oh yeah, Scadrial has electroyisis or whatever it's called which means they can mass-produce aluminum, a metal that blocks shards, prevents teleportation, et cetera. Not yet, Moonlight (or TwinSoul) mentions that aluminum can be created using electrolysis, and Marasi is shocked. It is hinted that they are close to it though, but scaling it up would take further time. 13 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Another thing I want to mention: bullets fired from something like Vindication II or Steel Survivor will hurt. Like with Bloodmakers, healing is important but shrapnel and high-velocity bullets hurt. Like, permanent trauma hurt. You could potentially knock out Radiants with those. Well, how traumatized is Wayne? And he gets shot a lot, and blown up occasionally, that hurts even more. And Radiant healing is on par with Gold-compounders, so a bit like super-charged Wayne. 14 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Also, how plausible would it be that Coinshots with F-TIn could snipe Shardplate visors? Like, redirect all the aluminum machine gun bullets at the visor. Or direct shrapnel through the visor. Shardplate need not have open visor, even deadplate can close it up and make the helm translucent (see Adolin at the end of WoR, when Stormform start throwing around lighting). So this tactic relies on Shardbearers deliberately leaving an opening. + if the Radiant in question is Windrunner, they can use shields infused with Reverse Lashing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadders Posted November 24, 2022 Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 Scadrial seem to have access to the most powerful explosives currently along with the means to deliver them long range. Not to mention the use of allomamantic grenades. You could slow bubble grenades to make nigh impassible choke points or disable groups of radiants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Wadders said: Scadrial seem to have access to the most powerful explosives currently along with the means to deliver them long range. Anti-light is orders of magnitude more powerful. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Still, I'm assuming it's hard to move large objects like that effectively, especially when constant harrying by your super-fast, very stealthy enemy is happening. That's why you open portals from where it currently is and move it directly. And Scadrians aren't that stealthy, there are three orders that can peer directly in the CR and find them by their souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 24, 2022 Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 @Frustration How would they even move Oathgate when they don't even know how was it made and just recently learn how to move just to CR? They do not have that knowledge after RoW. Moreover there is only ONE skilled Elsecaller with no sprens willing to bond, and ONE Willshaper that just begin to learn how to surgebind. Furthermore production of anti-light is very limited at the end of RoW, so no mass production of it and not even thoughts of weaponry on scale of bombs at the end of RoW. To add more, Roshar currently has only 2 radiants of 4th ideal - just 2, no more. You basically say that Roshar would master all Surgebinding, get all knights on 5th ideal with all sprens involved, figure out stuff that they didn't even think about yet and make everything there is to make, just because it is possible for them to make and was made before, and they had that abilities in the far past. It would be as well counter with argument of someone geting the power of Well of Ascention, vaporized every invading rosharian, and make milion Rashek-like soldiers, each with Harmonium-Trellium bombs with hundreds of MT yield, to set up on Roshar - just because it could be done, thye could have know how to do it, and it happend before. I just don't get that arguments of what they could do, if they knew everything there is to know when right now, they do not have neither knowledge, nor abilities, nor numbers to do any of that. We should compare them as they are at the end of each book, with the same skills, knowledge, numbers, even not united but conflicted among themselves as they are, and just maybe give them more equipment but only the one they already have and figured out how to make, as long as there are resources to make them right now, not what they could make in the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: @Frustration How would they even move Oathgate when they don't even know how was it made and just recently learn how to move just to CR? They do not have that knowledge after RoW. Moreover there is only ONE skilled Elsecaller with no sprens willing to bond, and ONE Willshaper that just begin to learn how to surgebind. Furthermore production of anti-light is very limited at the end of RoW, so no mass production of it and not even thoughts of weaponry on scale of bombs at the end of RoW. To add more, Roshar currently has only 2 radiants of 4th ideal - just 2, no more. You basically say that Roshar would master all Surgebinding, get all knights on 5th ideal with all sprens involved, figure out stuff that they didn't even think about yet and make everything there is to make, just because it is possible for them to make and was made before, and they had that abilities in the far past. It would be as well counter with argument of someone geting the power of Well of Ascention, vaporized every invading rosharian, and make milion Rashek-like soldiers, each with Harmonium-Trellium bombs with hundreds of MT yield, to set up on Roshar - just because it could be done, thye could have know how to do it, and it happend before. I just don't get that arguments of what they could do, if they knew everything there is to know when right now, they do not have neither knowledge, nor abilities, nor numbers to do any of that. We should compare them as they are at the end of each book, with the same skills, knowledge, numbers, even not united but conflicted among themselves as they are, and just maybe give them more equipment but only the one they already have and figured out how to make, as long as there are resources to make them right now, not what they could make in the future. TLM is about 10 years after SA 5. Any progress I give Roshar is the reasonable progress they could make in that time. Spoiler Questioner So the next Wax and Wayne, is that after the fifth Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson All the Wax and Wayne ones chronologically take place in the ten year gap between Stormlight 5 and 6. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e14998    1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 25, 2022 Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 23 hours ago, therunner said: First, apologies for not replying in length to the previous post of yours @Flaming Coinshot, I have less time then I would hope. No problem. Same here. 23 hours ago, therunner said: All Nicrosil Compounder would have is that, compounding Nicrosil, unless they can interact with medallions in such a way to get those abilities. However, medallions are weaker in this regard then Hemalurgy is, so I don't think that would work. Please do find the post, I would be curious how you intend it to work. Alright. Actually, it's multiple posts so I'll write it out. Nicrosil is used in conjunction with aluminum to create unsealed multiple power metalminds. If you look at the Ars Arcanum, Nicrosil is showed as "stores Investiture," and Brandon said that Nicrosil can be used to store Breaths and Surges. (Check the Coppermind, it's there.) And I know it's not canon, but the Mistborn Adventure Game Alloy of Law supplement described a Nicrosil Compounder as "opening new paths in magic." So, I'm assuming if they can store breath, then they can store Investiture and tap it as Allomantic Powers or Feruchemical stores. And here's my theory on unsealed metalminds. The nicrosil is required for the investiture to cross-transfer and not interfere with the aluminum and everything, kinda like an insulator. I need to flesh that one out a little more, though. 20 hours ago, alder24 said: I just don't get that arguments of what they could do, if they knew everything there is to know when right now, they do not have neither knowledge, nor abilities, nor numbers to do any of that. We should compare them as they are at the end of each book, with the same skills, knowledge, numbers, even not united but conflicted among themselves as they are, and just maybe give them more equipment but only the one they already have and figured out how to make, as long as there are resources to make them right now, not what they could make in the future. I think it's important, because think about it. And these examples, I hope they don't offend anyone, I'm just trying to dredge them up from my memory. Germany invented jet planes and Britain invented carpet bombs during WW2, the Mongols/China started using gunpowder cannons during various wars, longbow tactics were invented during the Hundred Years' War, et cetera. It's important because time doesn't move in a vacuum. In the event of war, both worlds will drive all their efforts, natural resources, and people towards winning. And that means that they need better ways to fight. Roshar's biggest problem, I think, will be the large varieties of allomacer, ferring, and twinborn as well as the large quantities of them. As you said, it will take a while for the Radiants to approach the level of mastery or the quantity the metalborn have. But individual Radiants are more powerful than the vast majority of metalborn. They will get more powerful as they clash. However, Scadrial's relative technological advancement is actually faster than Roshar's. I figured this out by looking at Earth's advancement and comparing them. While Roshar has flying machines, their navy's technology has barely progressed, and they've been using the same weapons for decades, if not centuries. Meanwhile, the Rosharans have invented machine guns, large scale explosives, and more. I'm sorry, I think that Roshar's technological prowess can outpace even anti-voidlight. I mean, that took two of Roshar's best scholars, and it took them months. 22 hours ago, Frustration said: And Scadrians aren't that stealthy, there are three orders that can peer directly in the CR and find them by their souls. Aluminum? Would that work? I'm sorry, I'm not very well understanding of how Aluminum works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 25, 2022 Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 20 hours ago, Frustration said: TLM is about 10 years after SA 5. Any progress I give Roshar is the reasonable progress they could make in that time. It's fair, but it is very hard to predict how they will progress. I highly doubt that they will be able to move Oathgates of out of Roshar in 10 years - that's just crazy achievement. And more, because Ghostbloods doesn't have a stockpile of Stormlight on Scadrial, it looks like they did not figure out the way of how to move Stormlight out of Roshar - and that means rosharians can't have that resource on Scadrial during invasion, and even more important no spren can go out of Roshar, and even bondsmiths would probably not overcome it in 10 years - so no radiant powers on Scadiral, nor any Shardblades and Shardplates. And I also doubt that Elsecaller's sprens would wanted to bond within that 10 years - other orders would progres in ideals and numbers and maybe 10% of them would reach 4th ideal - or even less, as Skybreaker knight says how rare it is to reach 4th ideal, so in 10 years there might be just few of them. So some advancements are fair to assume but only within resonable rate of it, depending on how the situation looks right now on Roshar, and what are the needs. They don't need to search for the way of interplanetary invasion and will not be needing it in 10 years, so they will not resolve those problems anytime soon. 17 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: It's important because time doesn't move in a vacuum. In the event of war, both worlds will drive all their efforts, natural resources, and people towards winning. And that means that they need better ways to fight. That's fair point, I agree. Some progress will be made. But that raise the question - how much time of preparation would both sides get? I would say none, war just suddenly happened and they use what they have right now to resolved it as quickly as they can in both separate scenarios of invasion. Initially most advancements would be made on strategic and tactical levels, far fewer on technological as both Scadrial and Roshar don't have that big industrial facilities yet (Scadrial has much more of them than Roshar). In that case the best chances of winning has the side that would make most initial territorial gains - and I just cannot see neither Scadrial nor Roshar capture and hold enough land on the other planet to have stable positons - in that case it's all over as both sides will get aware of others abilities, and will find ways to contermesure them, prepere defences and fortify positions. Scadial with rapid industrial grow would outproduce Roshar to the extreme but it might be hard for them to found a way to deal with Radiants on Roshar quickly enough. Both entry points for invading armies are limited to perpendicularities and Oathgates and that's very easily defensible chokepoints. Single Radient is a powerhouse of its own, much more powerful than any misting or feruchemist - but they need Stormlight to utilize it, and without it they are just another regular soldier on Scadrial, killed by bullet. I just simply can't see them resolving an issue with transporting Stormlight out of the world that quickly, when so many others failed over centuries before. 31 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Aluminum? Would that work? I'm sorry, I'm not very well understanding of how Aluminum works. I think it would work, someone in aluminum box might be not seen in CR - voidsprens in OB could not find soulcasters in Kholinar as they were in aluminum box. But watching from CR would not reveal the weapons, guns and armament of people you see, as those cognitive presences doesn't have to be where object in physical realm is. You would mostly know that there is a lot of people there and that's mostly it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 25, 2022 Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 No, unsealed metalmind for aluminum that stores the spiritual sense of identity-meaning they're untracable by invested methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Roshar's biggest problem, I think, will be the large varieties of allomacer, ferring, and twinborn as well as the large quantities of them. The only metalborn abilities that will actually have a huge impact is from Allomancy: Bronze, steel, iron, nicrosil, Bendalloy, chromium on Radiants below oath 4. And to a lesser extent duralumin and maybe cadmium. And from Feruchemy: steel, zinc, gold, pewter, maybe chromium That's really not a lot, especially when Roshar is used to dealing with invested entities with wildly different powers. Additionally given that not even 1/50 people are metalborn. Spoiler Kaymyth (parapharased) (paraphrased) I asked another question about the population levels of Mistings, Ferrings, and Twinborn. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The numbers in the [Alloy of Law Mistborn Adventure Game] supplement are off. (It states the occurrence of Mistings/Ferrings is 1 in 50 people.) He said that they're not terrible, but they definitely are shown as somewhat more common than they really are. But he also said that they're not nearly as rare as people seem to think; for example, he stated that virtually everyone would know at least one Coinshot. So there are definitely a lot of Allomancers around. And the occurrence of Twinborn would not be a normal statistical spread (alas). As folks opined before in this thread, the Terris folk do tend to keep somewhat to themselves, so there's not a huge amount of population mix. So Twinborn will be rarer. I did point out that there had to be some mix, else we'd be seeing full Feruchemists around, and to that he mostly just smiled and looked mysterious. As he does. Footnote: Kaymyth later clarified that Brandon said that the MAG numbers are too high. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882    I don't think they will have that many. Assuming Scadrial has a population of around 20 million, now North alone is 15 mil, but they also have the most Allomancy, so I think it will balance out. And that roughly 1/60 of them is a misting/feeding, (though that number is likely lower) of some sort and given my numbers above counting only the guaranteed useful powers, and going by the fighting age population 18-30 roughly 15.8% of the population right now, but I'll round up to 20%. That leaves you with around only 20,833 metalborn of fighting age. And while that's a lot they will all lose against a Radiant of even 2nd oath, and each one that dies is irreplaceable. Meanwhile each radiant that dies will be replaced within a few days. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: However, Scadrial's relative technological advancement is actually faster than Roshar's. I figured this out by looking at Earth's advancement and comparing them. Scadrial is advancing pretty slowly compared to earth. Harmony said they were supposed to have Radio decades ago, but it took until BoM, for them to get one, and it was in the hands of the Set, so it's possible Autonomy had to give it to them. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: While Roshar has flying machines, their navy's technology has barely progressed, They recently made fabrial pumps that will run automatically, along with automatic fabrial stabilizers. They have ships that can survive Highstorms if they have to. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: and they've been using the same weapons for decades, if not centuries. That is only partially true, but they've spent most of their weapons focus on recreating shardblades. Everything else has been progressing rapidly. With Shardblades solved they should be looking for more long ranged weapons, like the grandbows they made within the past decade. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: I'm sorry, I think that Roshar's technological prowess can outpace even anti-voidlight. I mean, that took two of Roshar's best scholars, and it took them months. Trellium/Harmonium took the Set almost a decade, while Autonomy was active helping them along. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Aluminum? Would that work? I'm sorry, I'm not very well understanding of how Aluminum works. If they were completely encased in it, probably, but they wouldn't be able to move that. 29 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: No, unsealed metalmind for aluminum that stores the spiritual sense of identity-meaning they're untracable by invested methods. That's not how identity works. Identity is the spiritual tag that says 'this belongs to this person' if you are really into biology you can think of Identity as an antigen. 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: It's fair, but it is very hard to predict how they will progress. I highly doubt that they will be able to move Oathgates of out of Roshar in 10 years - that's just crazy achievement. When you only have to shift it a dozen or so feet through a portal it's not that hard. Especially when Stonewards can make it move itself. 42 minutes ago, alder24 said:  even more important no spren can go out of Roshar, and even bondsmiths would probably not overcome it in 10 years According to Mraize it's a simple Connection issue(RoW 188). A Bondsmith could allow them to leave as easily as Ishar drew the light from Windrunners into the ground. 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: And I also doubt that Elsecaller's sprens would wanted to bond within that 10 years - other orders would progres in ideals and numbers and maybe 10% of them would reach 4th ideal - or even less, as Skybreaker knight says how rare it is to reach 4th ideal, so in 10 years there might be just few of them. Considering how many spren came immediately after learning the truth I think we can easily expect tens of full Radiants of every order. Additionally at the recreance nearly 300 individuals from just 2 orders were all 4th oath or higher. 4th isn't that rare. 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: I just simply can't see them resolving an issue with transporting Stormlight out of the world that quickly, when so many others failed over centuries before. The centuries before didn't have unchained Bondsmiths. 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: But watching from CR would not reveal the weapons, guns and armament of people you see, as those cognitive presences doesn't have to be where object in physical realm is. You would mostly know that there is a lot of people there and that's mostly it. It would reveal troop placement, and numbers. As well as find Kandra easily. It might not be an instant win, but you might as well have gps trackers on all of Scadrials agents. Edited November 25, 2022 by Frustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 25, 2022 Report Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Frustration said: When you only have to shift it a dozen or so feet through a portal it's not that hard. Especially when Stonewards can make it move itself You are very focus on moving Oathgates, and yes, you have knowledge of how to do it - they do not even consider it as an option. I don't see it will be possible for them to do it in 10 years. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: According to Mraize it's a simple Connection issue(RoW 188). A Bondsmith could allow them to leave as easily as Ishar drew the light from Windrunners into the ground. Problem with Bondsmiths connection manipulation is that everything they do, as for now, was very short lived - Dalinar learning Azir language, Dalinar connecting to Nale, Ishar connecting radiants to the ground etc - nothing last significantly long. And if they don't know about difficulties of moving Stromlight, they won't find solutions to it. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Considering how many spren came immediately after learning the truth I think we can easily expect tens of full Radiants of every order. Additionally at the recreance nearly 300 individuals from just 2 orders were all 4th oath or higher. 4th isn't that rare. Inksprens who fears surges in human hands might destroy the world? I doubt anything will change their opinion, after revelation about Recreance from Maya. No Elsecallers for you. From that 300 of 4th ideal, 100 were Windrunner - 2000 Honorsprens died during Recreance, that is JUST 5%, not counting squires. Very rare. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: The centuries before didn't have unchained Bondsmiths. Ture, however both have very little experience, and in 10 years they would be at best mediocre (Dalinar might not be alive) lacking abilities nessesery for operation on that scale. There is also very big probability that they would not be able to act outside Roshar, because they are connected to sprens heavly connected to Roshar, which depends heavily on their presence. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: It would reveal troop placement, and numbers. As well as find Kandra easily. It might not be an instant win, but you might as well have gps trackers on all of Scadrials agents. True, assuming that there is no presence of any scouts in CR of Scadrial, and as we know, Harmony is extending his reach in Cosmere, so we can assume there are people watching CR that can then coordinete with PR to minimise the impact of that action - which was not really used that much on Roshar, so it is very probable it won't be used on Scadrial, and Scadrial can use it as well.  Here is a fun and "realistic" scenario. As we know, massed presence of allomancers and feruchemist plus alien Investiture results in creation of perpendicularity. Now Scadrials group their forces on some remote region of Roshar in CR with huge amount of Harmonium and it might manifest an perpendicularity to the complete unawareness of anyone on Roshar. That amount of Harmony's Investiture would hide their actions from Stromfather. Then they just need to construct their base from concrete and steel and move troops and supplies on Roshar. They will easily strike within very last week of weeping where almost all of Stormlight is depleted - They send H-T bomb on Urithiru destroing it completely, killing most of the Radiants, and send strike forces on flying ships high above ground to other centers of Radiants wiping them out using guns, bombs and artillery, and capturing remaining Oathgates. The same treatment for Odium forces, and within no time they would have control over all of Roshar. Easy - only if we ignore thousends of problems and assume that noone spotted them during preparations in CR and PR. The same goes for the Roshar invasion of Scadiral - but they don't know it is possible. And both sides will have problems with Connection. Not possible in realistic way, but fun.  EDIT No invasion scenario would result in success for any side, all would be dead on arrival. However if we placed both armies on neutral ground, pitch battle, ignoring all the problems with connection, supllies, and how they got there, then Roshar would win. Radiants are just too powerful, and no misting, feruchemist or twinborn would rival them especially in rare shardplate. Most regular troops of Roshar would be wiped out, as they stand no chance against modern weapons, Scadrial troops would be much more effective in dealing with Radiants, but with heavy casualties, Raduants would be victorious and the last one standing. But if you add Fullborn or someone trained with fully charged bands of mourning - the result would be devastating for Roshar, as that's just full on god's powers with unlimited compounding. No Radiant would be able to face that. Edited November 25, 2022 by alder24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You are very focus on moving Oathgates, and yes, you have knowledge of how to do it - they do not even consider it as an option. I don't see it will be possible for them to do it in 10 years. Why would they try to move them? All the ones they control are in strategically important areas, removing them would be foolish, and without portals it would be time consuming. And how would the Oathgate spren and the Sibling not know it was possible? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Problem with Bondsmiths connection manipulation is that everything they do, as for now, was very short lived - Dalinar learning Azir language, Dalinar connecting to Nale, Ishar connecting radiants to the ground etc - nothing last significantly long. Bringing the spren into the physical realm was permanent, as is the Oathpact. And how would Ishar have taken the Stormfather's bond if it would revert to normal after a few minutes? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: And if they don't know about difficulties of moving Stromlight, they won't find solutions to it. Both Shallan and Jasnah know and are in contact with Hoid who is definitely aware of the problem, and desires a way to solve it. I'd say it would be less likely for them to not find a solution in the next ten years that for them to do so. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Inksprens who fears surges in human hands might destroy the world? I doubt anything will change their opinion, after revelation about Recreance from Maya. No Elsecallers for you. You assume all Inkspren are the same as Blended. Ivory came already, and just like there were those more willing among the Honorspren there will be those more willing among the Inkspren. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: From that 300 of 4th ideal, 100 were Windrunner - 2000 Honorsprens died during Recreance, that is JUST 5%, not counting squires. Very rare. You assume that all of the oath 4+5 we're there, but no one below? Why would they separate by Oath level in such a way? Especially when the Windrunners are so focused oh hierarchy, if that was all of them third oaths and below would be there too. That's probably only a small amount of them. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Ture, however both have very little experience, and in 10 years they would be at best mediocre KoW will be the last time we will get to focus on Bondsmiths, and Brandon only gave Dalinar ten days. Bondsmithing can't be that difficult to learn. Even if he doesn't master it in ten days enough of the basics should be there for them to master it in the next ten years, especially at higher oath levels. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: There is also very big probability that they would not be able to act outside Roshar, because they are connected to sprens heavly connected to Roshar, which depends heavily on their presence. The Siblings Bondsmith would likely be stuck, but the Nightwatcher isn't necessary for the planet, and the Stormfather doesn't need to leave for his Bondsmith to keep their powers Spoiler Questioner Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time... Brandon Sanderson Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73/#e4268 Additionally they could send squires who are using Connection hacks to maintain their powers. Even if both of them had to do it to keep the bond functioning the squire should have the power. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: True, assuming that there is no presence of any scouts in CR of Scadrial, Scadrial has no way to resupply anyone in the CR, and their perpendicularity is far from anything important. Additionally they lack the ability to maneuver effectively there, as they can't coat oars with Investiture in order to row. Roshar will control the CR in this fight, there is just no way for them to lose. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: so we can assume there are people watching CR that can then coordinete with PR to minimise the impact of that action How? I don't think there is any visible indication when someone peers into the CR, but even if their was they can't communicate with the PR from the Cognitive. And any elsecaller wanting to could easily kill them by turning them to stone. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: which was not really used that much on Roshar, so it is very probable it won't be used on Scadrial, and Scadrial can use it as well. Both Venli and Jasnah use it all the time. There's even some indication that Kaladin could do it(WoR 470). 1 hour ago, alder24 said: - They send H-T bomb on Urithiru destroing it completely, killing most of the Radiants, That one is just outright impossible, there is no way for them to get within hundreds of miles of Urithiru in the PR, and on the CR they would both be easily noticed. Additionally where are they getting the electricity from? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Fullborn or someone trained with fully charged bands of mourning - the result would be devastating for Roshar, as that's just full on god's powers with unlimited compounding. No Radiant would be able to face that. Compounding has strict upper limits, and besides it's linear, not multiplicative. And an Elsecaller could kill them easily. Shift to the CR, and soulcast away the bands, or place them inside a solid aluminum cube. Edited November 26, 2022 by Frustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 4 hours ago, alder24 said: No invasion scenario would result in success for any side, all would be dead on arrival. However if we placed both armies on neutral ground, pitch battle, ignoring all the problems with connection, supllies, and how they got there, then Roshar would win. Radiants are just too powerful, and no misting, feruchemist or twinborn would rival them especially in rare shardplate. Most regular troops of Roshar would be wiped out, as they stand no chance against modern weapons, Scadrial troops would be much more effective in dealing with Radiants, but with heavy casualties, Raduants would be victorious and the last one standing. But if you add Fullborn or someone trained with fully charged bands of mourning - the result would be devastating for Roshar, as that's just full on god's powers with unlimited compounding. No Radiant would be able to face that. Pitched battles are shockingly stupid. The Europeans, a people whose continent is largely fields and flat land, tried to get battles in forest, marsh, and hills because fighting pitched battles on neutral ground is so shockingly dumb. I don't mean to be rude, even if it doesn't seem like it, I'm trying to point out that a pitched battle is unlikely for both sides, especially when you have world's worth of people on both sides. 3 hours ago, Frustration said: Both Shallan and Jasnah know and are in contact with Hoid who is definitely aware of the problem, and desires a way to solve it. I'd say it would be less likely for them to not find a solution in the next ten years that for them to do so. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: But moving metalborn is far easier. 3 hours ago, Frustration said: You assume all Inkspren are the same as Blended. Ivory came already, and just like there were those more willing among the Honorspren there will be those more willing among the Inkspren. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Still, I think your estimates about the size of Radiants is a little too hopeful. Radiants depend on the psychology of spren, some who think Odium is preferable to humans. Meanwhile, metalborn are just products of population trends.  3 hours ago, Frustration said: Shift to the CR, and soulcast away the bands, or place them inside a solid aluminum cube. Uhh-the reason why their fully charged is so that the wearer can see through all three realms, and push on virtually anything.  3 hours ago, Frustration said: Both Venli and Jasnah use it all the time. There's even some indication that Kaladin could do it(WoR 470). 4 hours ago, alder24 said: What are you mentioning here? Sorry, I couldn't find it. 3 hours ago, Frustration said: That one is just outright impossible, there is no way for them to get within hundreds of miles of Urithiru in the PR, and on the CR they would both be easily noticed. Additionally where are they getting the electricity from? 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Generators? But yeah, this one's tough to imagine. It'd likely involve multiple, massive fleets of airships primed with hundreds of metalborn. 3 hours ago, Frustration said: How? I don't think there is any visible indication when someone peers into the CR, but even if their was they can't communicate with the PR from the Cognitive. Kandra? But yeah, they can't communicate...maybe a new use of duraluminum? But Bronze detects all investiture. Or at least the high amount being expelled by transcending the border between realms. Other theory: bloodmakers used as meat bags in the unlikely case of a large-scale battle. Here's the thing about all of these theories, though. Modern warfare (even some older warfare) isn't necessarily about large-scale battles. Or rather, those who are remembered as military geniuses don't start those. Instead, it's logistics, careful planning, large-scale ambushes, and multiple small-scale ambushes. It's getting behind enemy lines and causing disruptances. It's putting psychological fear in your enemy. Roshar has the advantage when everyone around fights the same and has shared history. But Brandon has said that Kelsier would win in a fight between him and Kaladin, and the reason why reflects their planets' warfare. Roshar will try very, very hard to catch Scadrian forces. But said forces will do their best do avoid, draw in, ambush, and launch surprise offensives. And Scadrial is well equipped to do that, while Roshar is well equipped to carry out their strategy. No doubt, in a siege or pitched battle, Roshar will win. But I think, based on existing martial traditions and magic, Scadrial will win in virtually anything else. They will not win on a massive offensive campaign. They will win if they can draw Rosharan forces, trap them briefly in an ambush, and then launch a surprise attack on immobile Rosharan war commands and cities. Roshar can try to siege Scadrian cities, but things like land mines and artillery will make that hard. Bronze compounders and allomancers can keep watch alongside tin metalborn to make sure enemies don't slip past, while iron and pewter users can catch those that do. Twinborn backed up by allomancers and ferrings is just such an appealing model for war. However, Scadrial will not win in the conventional sense. If they try to, Roshar will grab them by the neck and break them. Instead, they'll wear the people and troops of Roshar down. They'll drive Roshar's command insane with surprise attacks and deft reactions. Scadrians literally can use Bronze compounders to quickly analyze situations to come up with the best outcomes, Electrum allomancy and feruchemacy is immensly useful on the battlefield, and the destructive capabilities of even a coinshot are incredible. (Wax's rampage in Bilming). Sure, Radiants are probably more versatile than I give them credit for. But their entire model (besides Lightweavers) is to provide a bulwark between their immortal, untiring, overwhelming enemy and humanity. That's not a group designed for subtlety or deft militaristic maneuvering. Most of Scadrial is. What isn't, it's designed to be even more domineering than Roshar. Massive (or at least fairly large) airships. (Thanks Frustration!) A navy that can far outpace everything Roshar has. It would be close, definitely, but in the end, Scadrial is just more annoying. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: If they were completely encased in it, probably, but they wouldn't be able to move that. 6 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Sorry, I meant storing Identity. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: Trellium/Harmonium took the Set almost a decade, while Autonomy was active helping them along. 7 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: And it took Wax some ten minutes. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: According to Mraize it's a simple Connection issue(RoW 188). A Bondsmith could allow them to leave as easily as Ishar drew the light from Windrunners into the ground. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: I think it'd take a talented Bondsmith. Of which we have none. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: They recently made fabrial pumps that will run automatically, along with automatic fabrial stabilizers. They have ships that can survive Highstorms if they have to. 7 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Yeah, you're right, I should've considered that. But the idea of a metal ship is inconceivable to the Rosharans, while it's a tiny aside to Scadrial. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: That's not how identity works. Identity is the spiritual tag that says 'this belongs to this person' if you are really into biology you can think of Identity as an antigen. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Alright, thanks. Hey, could Chromium drain Stormlight? Because if it can, that's also huge. Think about it. Flying platforms crashed if they can get one person onboard. Radiants taken out mid-battle. It'd be a pretty large (if hard to exploit) advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: (Thanks Frustration!) Happy to help. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: But moving metalborn is far easier. To an extent. While they don't need Connection manipulation to leave they also don't have access to the CR without Harmony's perpendicularity. Additionally they don't have a way to traverse the CR, which on Scadrial takes the form of mists and requires invested objects in order to sail on(as described in SH) I don't know that on its own Scadrial has a way to navigate the CR without walking on the floor and trying not to drown. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Still, I think your estimates about the size of Radiants is a little too hopeful. Radiants depend on the psychology of spren, some who think Odium is preferable to humans. There are more spren alive now than there were during the Recreance (WoR 888). And during their peak some orders had members in the low thousands Spoiler VindicationKnight Do you mind telling us what the average number of Knights for a Knight Radiant Order were (barring Bondmiths) and possibly how close the different orders worked together? Brandon Sanderson It varied very widely, and depended on many factors. At their highest, some orders had members in the low thousands. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3509 There are probably thousands to tens of thousands of Inkspren. Is 10-20 of them being willing to bond humans after Maya's revelation really that unlikely? 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Meanwhile, metalborn are just products of population trends. Which makes them irreplaceable. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Uhh-the reason why their fully charged is so that the wearer can see through all three realms, and push on virtually anything. While they could see all three realms it would practically drain them for the user to actually get to the CR. Pushing on an invested individual while they are in the CR is probably not something they could do, they could likely push on metal they had, but that's about it. And a regular soulcaster could soulcast a full metalmind Spoiler Questioner Can you Soulcast an Invested object? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans. Questioner So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it? Brandon Sanderson So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681  1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: What are you mentioning here? Sorry, I couldn't find it. I only have my notes at the moment, if you can please remind me in a few days and I'll go dig it out. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Kandra? But yeah, they can't communicate...maybe a new use of duraluminum? But Bronze detects all investiture. Or at least the high amount being expelled by transcending the border between realms. Transportation is actually a really low Investiture way to access the CR. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Other theory: bloodmakers used as meat bags in the unlikely case of a large-scale battle. That would certainly be helpful, but I think it would be a waste unless you have a metalborn with much more useful powers that needs protection. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: And Scadrial is well equipped to do that, Nothing Scadrial has can outrun a Windrunner. Even their trains are slow enough horses can catch them. Windrunners can easily hit 200mph. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Roshar can try to siege Scadrian cities, Why would they attempt a siege? They can both fly over and tunnel under fortifications as easily as walking. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: They'll drive Roshar's command insane with surprise attacks and deft reactions. Between Lightweaver and spren spies and CR observation no attack will be a surprise, they will have at least a half-hour warning. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Scadrians literally can use Bronze compounders to quickly analyze situations to come up with the best outcomes, With the Stormfather's ability to slow time Roshar has the same advantage. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Electrum allomancy and feruchemacy is immensly useful on the battlefield, Feruchemy maybe, but that would require medallions, and a lot of them, though you could make some decent kill squads with it. I'm not sure what advantages you see to A-electrum though, it could maybe help you aim better, but that's hardly a game changer. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Massive (or at least fairly large) airships. That can't fly if anyone on them isn't storing weight. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: A navy that can far outpace everything Roshar has. Fair. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: And it took Wax some ten minutes. While he had an outlet nearby, and only used .3 ounces of Harmonium. How do you carefully balance electrical imput and stretching the Harmonium, as well as the total size of the bomb while still making it portable? The Set didn't spend 6 years making it, they spent 6 years making it useable. Anti-light on the other hand is already portable and is already as efficient as it can get. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: I think it'd take a talented Bondsmith. Of which we have none. Well there's 10 years to practice. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Yeah, you're right, I should've considered that. But the idea of a metal ship is inconceivable to the Rosharans, while it's a tiny aside to Scadrial. That is true, but I will say that they don't have a reason to make metal ships yet, so of course they wouldn't make one. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Alright, thanks. You're welcome. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said:  Hey, could Chromium drain Stormlight? Yes. 1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Radiants taken out mid-battle. It'd be a pretty large (if hard to exploit) advantage. Hard is right, it won't work through plate, and Radiants have 7 foot long instant death sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Why would they try to move them? All the ones they control are in strategically important areas, removing them would be foolish, and without portals it would be time consuming. And how would the Oathgate spren and the Sibling not know it was possible? You are talking about moving them, and both sprens and Sibling are not willing to share informations without asking. Moving or creating Oathgates in 10 years is just too much, as we don't even know what it took to made them in the first place - thay might be incredibly difficult to made. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Both Shallan and Jasnah know and are in contact with Hoid who is definitely aware of the problem, and desires a way to solve it. I'd say it would be less likely for them to not find a solution in the next ten years that for them to do so. They have bigger problems now, to worry about something they don't need. And again - Ghostbloods don't figure it out, they won't as well. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: You assume all Inkspren are the same as Blended. Ivory came already, and just like there were those more willing among the Honorspren there will be those more willing among the Inkspren. 1 have joined Radiants, when all he believed was that Jasnah might/will kill him, now all Inksprens knows that ancient sprens have chosen death to save Roshar, as Radiant powers might destroy the planet. I'm pretty convinced, that all undecided are now fully convinced not to help Radiants, as this is now much bigger threat. No Elsecallers for you. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: You assume that all of the oath 4+5 we're there, but no one below? They all had armor at Feverstone Keep, they were 4+ ideal. And it is very hard to get there, Kaladin struggles a lot, faced suicidal thoughts all time, and deep dark depression. It was very hard for him to overcome all of this to reach 4th ideal, and as per WOB, if Kaladin did not make it in RoW, he would never become 4th Ideal Windrunner. It's fair to assume, with words from Skybreaker, that 4th Ideal is rare. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Bondsmithing can't be that difficult to learn. I'm sorry, what? You compare Ishar that had like 7000 years to master surges, to Dalinar, that is doing it for barely a year, and will have another 10 years IF he survives 5th book. Not a good comparison. Connection is the most powerful force of Cosmere, and very little is known about it even for us, it will be very hard for Dalinar to master it, as all he does now is just a hunch, rather than skill. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: The Siblings Bondsmith would likely be stuck, but the Nightwatcher isn't necessary for the planet, and the Stormfather doesn't need to leave for his Bondsmith to keep their powers Nightwatcher is not bonded, and Stormfather is omnipresent on Roshar, not Scadrial. Which is very important distinction. Bondsmithing is very likely not to work outside Roshar system. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Roshar will control the CR in this fight, there is just no way for them to lose. No doubt on that, but I was talking on using scouts, they can use mistings that would burn metals like morse code in CR, that would be recieved by Seekers in PR. Just enough to get information so they can act. But Roshar will be in control of Scadrial CR, even without Radiants. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Both Venli and Jasnah use it all the time.  Fair, but they using it from PR to look into CR, not the other way around. Outside battle of Thaylen field, when they do not use any of that information, no such actions were made. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: And an Elsecaller could kill them easily. Shift to the CR, and soulcast away the bands, or place them inside a solid aluminum cube. No Elsecallers for you, and they would not be able to kill Fullborn, he could move faster than speed of sound, think faster than supecomputers, and easily locate and kill any Elsecaller before they ever see what is happening. Noone is just able to compete with Fullborn. Bands are extremely full of Investiture, it's the most invested thing apart from Nightblood ever made. It will be impossible to soulcast that. And Fullborn move faster than you can create any aluminum box, and he could easily break it with compound strength alone. Not to mention effects of emotional allomancy, that would paralyzed anyone, which we see in TLM.  10 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Pitched battles are shockingly stupid. Yes they, are, but they are surprisingly equal and fair to both sides, making them a perfect tool for us to compare Roshar and Scadrial. I did not try to suggest that there would be a fair pitch battle on empty field. 10 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Here's the thing about all of these theories, though. Modern warfare (even some older warfare) isn't necessarily about large-scale battles. Or rather, those who are remembered as military geniuses don't start those. Instead, it's logistics, careful planning, large-scale ambushes, and multiple small-scale ambushes. It's getting behind enemy lines and causing disruptances. That's the point. Logistics and supplies wins the war. Both invasion scenario will fail shortly, as neither Roshar, no Scadrial can streach their logistics to reach others planet. They do not even have vessels to transport army on the other planet in large numbers, not to mention constant shipping of the supplies through CR, that would require monumental effort and manpower. It's like Napoleon or Hitler invading Britain - didn't happen as they couldn't make it through the canal. Any invasion even with innitial gains would quickly stop due to lack of supplies and then they would have to retreat because of resistance even of weaker forces. That's why I compere them on pitch battle conditions, as all of those troubles are removed from equation. No invasion can happen.  8 hours ago, Frustration said: To an extent. While they don't need Connection manipulation to leave they also don't have access to the CR without Harmony's perpendicularity. Additionally they don't have a way to traverse the CR, which on Scadrial takes the form of mists and requires invested objects in order to sail on(as described in SH) I don't know that on its own Scadrial has a way to navigate the CR without walking on the floor and trying not to drown. Location of Harmony's perpendicularity was revealed in newspaper, not really hidden. And can't there still be Ruin's and Preservation's perpendicularities hanging aroung? And they could just take boats, planks, anything that floats and ship them to CR, not a big problem, we don't know how CR of Scadrial is looking now, but Kandra have to boats, so not a problem. And there is land in CR. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: There are probably thousands to tens of thousands of Inkspren. Is 10-20 of them being willing to bond humans after Maya's revelation really that unlikely? Yes, because they did not do it before, and that revelations are gamechanger so they will not be willing to do it after. Also there were only 2000 Honorsprens in total, and they were the most numerous order, so I doubt any other sprens could have bigger numbers than Honorsprens, now all decimated by Recreance. And not all orders were numerous, some might be very few in numbers, so fewer sprens to bond, therefore low population is fair to assume for Inksprens, few hundreds at best. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Which makes them irreplaceable. I would say there are more metalborns in total compared to Radiants, and metalborns had their whole life to train, and had best teachers with traditions of more than 1300 years. Metalborns are much more skilled and able to work in effective groups compared to Radiants, who just got their powers, and any new replacemant of dead one, will be completely untrained. Still Radiants had better combat related skills, including healing. But metalborns and regular Scadrials knows how to deal with someone with healing abilities - shot him until he runs out of healing. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: And a regular soulcaster could soulcast a full metalmind Regular full metalmind is not the same as Bands of Mourning... The difference is staggering, both Wax and Marasi were leaking mists when they used it. They are too much invested to be affected by soulcaster or Radiant. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Nothing Scadrial has can outrun a Windrunner They have AA guns, and stealrunners and pewter-runners. Maybe not that fast but still highly mobile. And you just need to shot them out of skies, as they have very limited amounts of Stormlight, IF they can transport it to Scadrial, which is not likely. Roshar forces don't have stockpile of perfect crystals, so it might be possible that all of the Stormlight stored in regular crystals would simply vanished before reaching Scadrial. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Why would they attempt a siege? Modern siege is not the same as medieval one. They would need to take the city streat by streat, building by building, flat by flat - and in that fight, Scadrial has big advantage in that case, and knows it terrain too well. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Between Lightweaver and spren spies and CR observation no attack will be a surprise, they will have at least a half-hour warning. Assuming they would use them, even now on Roshar, they used it once in Kholinar. And spies can be caught and mislead. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: With the Stormfather's ability to slow time Roshar has the same advantage. No, that works, only on Roshar, only in Highstorms, only for very selected few. It's not comparable to Ferrings. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: I'm not sure what advantages you see to A-electrum though, it could maybe help you aim better, but that's hardly a game changer. Seeing future is not a game changer? Vin would strongly disagree, Vorinism would strongly disagree. Everyone would, They are invincible, as seen in finale of HoA. And they also have Atium now, no Radiant could face someone with Atium, no matter of healing. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: That can't fly if anyone on them isn't storing weight. Small one yes, big one can, but that is a problem for large number of people on board. Still Elendel has few of them, not to mention potentialy hundreds in hands of Malwish. I'm tend to send only Elendel and Urithiru coalition against one another, as we don't really know what Malwish or Fused are fully capable of and what technology they possessed. And uniting them is not possible in even alien invasion scenario, as we saw with Malwish inTLM. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: How do you carefully balance electrical imput and stretching the Harmonium, as well as the total size of the bomb while still making it portable? The Set didn't spend 6 years making it, they spent 6 years making it useable. Anti-light on the other hand is already portable and is already as efficient as it can get. Set did it, they made multiple successful tests, all of that is in Wax hands now, including scientist. They can make it easily work on Roshar. Anit-light was only used in very small amounts, crystals worth of it, as it is very hard, slow, and limited process to produce even small amounts of it. Only Navani is capable to do it from Urithiru. And it was mostly used in a daggers, rather than as a bomb, they would need to figure out whole manufacturing/holding/delivery/igniting/aiming systems and more to produce capable weapons. Scadrial has it now. Usable. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Well there's 10 years to practice. Or 10 year of being dead. Still 10 years is not a long time, as in 1 year Dalinar barely made any progress. We cannot also speculate if Ishar will teach him as that's outside of currently published books. So we can as well said Ishar tripped, fell and broke his neck. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Hard is right, it won't work through plate, and Radiants have 7 foot long instant death sticks. That death stick is useless when your enemy is ranged one with artillery. Living plates would be a very rare sight, and could be destroy under heavy fire, dead plates - aim at the eyeholes, and they are dead, easy with modern and precise guns.  That whole disscussion turned into "my side would wn" vs "my side would win" with stretched arguments without ever reaching sensible conclusion. I think that Frustration severely overestimates abilities, progress, and numbers of Roshar in that conflict. I'm of opinion that no invasion could take place, because of logistic, supplies and organized defence issues, that would not be overcome, especially when they would face enemy that they don't know anything about, on terrain they don't know, with tactics not familiar to them. On more fair ground, no invasion, just battle, even on large scale, ignoring all problems, Roshar would be winning side, but it won't be easy. Edited November 26, 2022 by alder24 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Pushing on an invested individual while they are in the CR is probably not something they could do, they could likely push on metal they had, but that's about it.  He did it, in BoM.  1 hour ago, alder24 said: Seeing future is not a game changer? Vin would strongly disagree, Vorinism would strongly disagree. Everyone would, They are invincible, as seen in finale of HoA. And they also have Atium now, no Radiant could face someone with Atium, no matter of healing. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: A good electrum user could analyze the future quickly and move based on that, maybe warn their superiors if they see something special. One with Zinc could operate far better.  1 hour ago, alder24 said: They have AA guns, and stealrunners and pewter-runners. Maybe not that fast but still highly mobile. And you just need to shot them out of skies, as they have very limited amounts of Stormlight, IF they can transport it to Scadrial, which is not likely. Roshar forces don't have stockpile of perfect crystals, so it might be possible that all of the Stormlight stored in regular crystals would simply vanished before reaching Scadrial. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Steelrunner, easily. But shooting a Windruner out of the sky is going to be very difficult.  1 hour ago, alder24 said: 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Between Lightweaver and spren spies and CR observation no attack will be a surprise, they will have at least a half-hour warning.  Then how did Urithru fall? That's what I'm talking about. A large-scale distraction that can't be ignored complemented by a highly skilled strike team carrying remote-detonation H-T bombs. Even if they don't destroy a city, the psychological effect is huge, and the disruptance of logistics is also important. The fact that Scadrians can effectively hit Rosharan convoys while the Rosharans can't do the same (Scadrial can mass-produce metals and aluminum, and it's defensive capabilities outpace Roshar (Iron)).  10 hours ago, Frustration said: While he had an outlet nearby, and only used .3 ounces of Harmonium. How do you carefully balance electrical imput and stretching the Harmonium, as well as the total size of the bomb while still making it portable? The Set didn't spend 6 years making it, they spent 6 years making it useable. Anti-light on the other hand is already portable and is already as efficient as it can get. 12 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: You don't need to, I think. It's a scalable mathematical equation. The Americans didn't make a Tsar Bomba because they didn't know how. It's because they didn't want to and they felt it was too tactically stretching. The Scadrians don't have such weaknesses.  10 hours ago, Frustration said: That can't fly if anyone on them isn't storing weight. 12 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Well...that's implied. In a true scorched earth campaign, I think Scadrial would do far more damage. The Rosharans have complex honor codes and oaths holding them back. The Scadrians are focusing on high damage output. On a tactical and battlefield level, Roshar will likely win. But they won't win the war. Scadrial is simply winning to do more. It's like the Civil War. One side has more romantic ideals of war and honor with better generals and *technically* better troops, but the other has a larger industrial base, navy, and the scorched earth tactic. Edited November 26, 2022 by Flaming Coinshot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: They have bigger problems now, to worry about something they don't need. And again - Ghostbloods don't figure it out, they won't as well. Kalak claims he nearly figured it out, that and he is now willing to talk to Shallan. So they could have figured it out, and being aware of Ghostblood kept it secret. Or Ghostbloods did steal that knowledge, and use it to move purify and move Dor.  1 hour ago, alder24 said: They all had armor at Feverstone Keep, they were 4+ ideal. And it is very hard to get there, Kaladin struggles a lot, faced suicidal thoughts all time, and deep dark depression. It was very hard for him to overcome all of this to reach 4th ideal, and as per WOB, if Kaladin did not make it in RoW, he would never become 4th Ideal Windrunner. It's fair to assume, with words from Skybreaker, that 4th Ideal is rare. And Kaladin is having atypically bad time of Windrunner (what with no guidance), look at Lopen or Teft. Lopen had relatively easy time with 3rd ideal, and if Teft had lived a bit longer he would most likely have followed quickly after Kaladin (implication was that after being awoken he was almost as close as Kaladin to 4th Oath). Quote I'm sorry, what? You compare Ishar that had like 7000 years to master surges, to Dalinar, that is doing it for barely a year, and will have another 10 years IF he survives 5th book. Not a good comparison. Connection is the most powerful force of Cosmere, and very little is known about it even for us, it will be very hard for Dalinar to master it, as all he does now is just a hunch, rather than skill. Ishar learned enough to be named "Binder of gods" back on Ashyn, when he was still mortal. At the same time he (or another Bondsmith, if there were more) caused destruction of Ashyn, and enabled refuges to move to Roshar by super-powered Elsecalling. And he did not have advantage of prior expertise to consult, unlike Dalinar who has Stormfathar and Sibling, possibly Kalak as well.  Quote No Elsecallers for you, and they would not be able to kill Fullborn, he could move faster than speed of sound, think faster than supecomputers, and easily locate and kill any Elsecaller before they ever see what is happening. Noone is just able to compete with Fullborn. Bands are extremely full of Investiture, it's the most invested thing apart from Nightblood ever made. It will be impossible to soulcast that. And Fullborn move faster than you can create any aluminum box, and he could easily break it with compound strength alone. Not to mention effects of emotional allomancy, that would paralyzed anyone, which we see in TLM. There are no Fullborn period, unlike Elsecallers of which one is definitely active on Roshar. If there are no futher Elsecallers, there are certainly no Fullborn. Let us be equally strict with both sides. And nope, Bands of Mourning are less Invested than both Shardplate and Shardblades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e4878). They are just full metalmind of multiple metals (as far as we know), and even non-Radiant soulcasters could soulcast those (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681) Elsecaller would have chance only if attacking from Cognitive, where they are safe (as Fullborn has no way to access them there). Quote I would say there are more metalborns in total compared to Radiants, and metalborns had their whole life to train, and had best teachers with traditions of more than 1300 years. Metalborns are much more skilled and able to work in effective groups compared to Radiants, who just got their powers, and any new replacemant of dead one, will be completely untrained. Still Radiants had better combat related skills, including healing. But metalborns and regular Scadrials knows how to deal with someone with healing abilities - shot him until he runs out of healing. In total across all age groups there are circa ~20 000 metalborn in the Northern Scadrial, which most likely forms the bulk of all of them (assuming 1 in 500 is metalborn, as the compromise on Brandons one in few hundred, or one in few thousand WoBs + assuming population of 10 million, based on 5 million population of Elendel and comment in TLM that Elendel has around half of population of Basin). They are divided across 32 disciplines, so less then a thousand for each metal. This is across all age categories, so if you include only people 20-60, you get only half, so ~400 per each metal. Most of these have never trained for combat, or even never thought, and at least 1/3 of the metals is completely useless in combat, further reducing number of metalborn. So at this stage, you have around 6000 metalborn with abilities useful in combat or support roles, who are of fighting age, and most have next to no combat experience. That is it. Additionally not metals are equally rare, e.g. there is only few F-steel ferring in all of Elendel (population 5 million), but we don't any proper numbers on those distribution (though apparently coinshots and lurchers are among the most common, vs f-steel are among the rarest). Radiant are (at this point) all combat trained, and actually train and fight in groups, unlike metalborn who have been shown not doing anything like that in Era 2. Quote Regular full metalmind is not the same as Bands of Mourning... The difference is staggering, both Wax and Marasi were leaking mists when they used it. They are too much invested to be affected by soulcaster or Radiant. We don't know why they were leaking mists, thought I have a theory on that (shameless plug, https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/97692-theory-bands-of-mourning-are-fueled-by-mists/ ) TLDR: Theory is they are filled with compounded Mists, and they leak since humans are imperfect containers for gaseous investiture. Quote They have AA guns, and stealrunners and pewter-runners. Maybe not that fast but still highly mobile. And you just need to shot them out of skies, as they have very limited amounts of Stormlight, IF they can transport it to Scadrial, which is not likely. Roshar forces don't have stockpile of perfect crystals, so it might be possible that all of the Stormlight stored in regular crystals would simply vanished before reaching Scadrial. Shooting a plane moving without appreciable acceleration is difficult with AA guns (and Scadrial does not have particularly advanced ones), and Windrunner is constantly accelerating and much smaller target than a plane. Pewter-runners are not that far from top-human, primary advantage is endurance here. And there are few steelrunners, and running at multiples of human speed will drain them fast (I can plug the numbers from the old thread if need be). Quote Modern siege is not the same as medieval one. They would need to take the city streat by streat, building by building, flat by flat - and in that fight, Scadrial has big advantage in that case, and knows it terrain too well. How does Scadrial have advantage? Radiants have overwhelming advantage in close quarters combat, and Orders with Cohesion can move through city as if the walls were not even there. + every Radiant has a spren they can use for scouting. Quote Seeing future is not a game changer? Vin would strongly disagree, Vorinism would strongly disagree. Everyone would, They are invincible, as seen in finale of HoA. And they also have Atium now, no Radiant could face someone with Atium, no matter of healing. Electrum while useful is not enough, 3rd oath windrunner would defeat full Mistborn, electrum or no, in a battle. Electrum misting is comparative cakewalk. And while Atium is useful, there is just incredibly small amount of it, and to produce it you loose Trellium (which could be used in bombs) and Harmonium (which could be used in Southern Fabrials), it is a trade-off. Also Atium is reliant on movement of opponent, Elsecaller (or Lightweaver) could soulcast someone burning Atium without more movement then stretching a hand, and there is nothing to dodge. Also Atium burns fast, so it is a question of who can outlast whom, Atium burner without healing vs Radiant who heals from hits with Stormlight?  Quote Set did it, they made multiple successful tests, all of that is in Wax hands now, including scientist. They can make it easily work on Roshar. Anit-light was only used in very small amounts, crystals worth of it, as it is very hard, slow, and limited process to produce even small amounts of it. Only Navani is capable to do it from Urithiru. And it was mostly used in a daggers, rather than as a bomb, they would need to figure out whole manufacturing/holding/delivery/igniting/aiming systems and more to produce capable weapons. Scadrial has it now. Usable. Most scientist were running away from TwinSoul did they not? And it took Set 6 years to create the bombs, Roshar has 10 to learn to weaponize anti-light x light reactions. Navani used principles known to others in Rosharan scientific community, and based on her approach will share her findings. And Urithiru was not relevant in the process whatsoever. What Scadrial now has is a suicide ships, because they were unable to fit it on rockets. Not exactly ideal method of deployment.  1 hour ago, alder24 said: That death stick is useless when your enemy is ranged one with artillery. Living plates would be a very rare sight, and could be destroy under heavy fire, dead plates - aim at the eyeholes, and they are dead, easy with modern and precise guns. Once again, the plate does not have eyeslits. They can be closed even on deadplate, and typically are in battle. (i.e. Jasnah had her plate sealed airtight for most of the battle in RoW). So guns wont help there, and not every Scadrian is the same crackshot as Wax, in fact except him there are none, that is why he is the legandary Dawnshot and not run-of-the-mill lawman. For the artillery, why would Radiants stand waiting to get hit? Most orders are quite mobile, or heal better than the rest, or can build fortifications.  Quote 29 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: He did it, in BoM.  He did not, he only perceived axi, but did not push on them. Quote You don't need to, I think. It's a scalable mathematical equation. The Americans didn't make a Tsar Bomba because they didn't know how. It's because they didn't want to and they felt it was too tactically stretching. The Scadrians don't have such weaknesses. Instead Scadrial lacks resources as Trellium was rare to begin with, and now is no longer occurring as Autonomy divested. So at some point they will run out, and be unable to build more. Question now is how much is there, and what is the destructive potential per unit of Trellium.  Quote In a true scorched earth campaign, I think Scadrial would do far more damage. The Rosharans have complex honor codes and oaths holding them back. The Scadrians are focusing on high damage output. On a tactical and battlefield level, Roshar will likely win. But they won't win the war. Scadrial is simply winning to do more. It's like the Civil War. One side has more romantic ideals of war and honor with better generals and *technically* better troops, but the other has a larger industrial base, navy, and the scorched earth tactic. Ehm, Radiants fought repeated wars to destroy and push away Singers, lobotomized Singers effectively committing cultural and social genocide (while under less threat than during actual Odium-driven Desolations) and Elsecaller advocated full-on genocide of at the time innocent Parshmen without jeopardizing her Oaths. Sure Windrunners might be against such tactics, but in individual engagements they will fight and they will fight to win (see, well nearly all of the battles across SA). The other Orders will take care of the 'dirty' strategies and tactics. Edited November 26, 2022 by therunner spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: You are talking about moving them, and both sprens and Sibling are not willing to share informations without asking. Moving or creating Oathgates in 10 years is just too much, as we don't even know what it took to made them in the first place - thay might be incredibly difficult to made. 1. I'm not talking about making new ones 2. Why would they be harder to move that simply shifting the platform? Shardblades can move easily. Even the Sibling can be moved without trouble. Why would the Oathgates be different? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They have bigger problems now, to worry about something they don't need. And again - Ghostbloods don't figure it out, they won't as well. The Ghostbloods know how to do it(same RoW discussion as quoted earlier) they just don't have a way to do it. You know, like a certain spren already known for stealing Connection, and has the ability to generate Voidlight. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: 1 have joined Radiants, when all he believed was that Jasnah might/will kill him, now all Inksprens knows that ancient sprens have chosen death to save Roshar, as Radiant powers might destroy the planet. I'm pretty convinced, that all undecided are now fully convinced not to help Radiants, as this is now much bigger threat. No Elsecallers for you. 1. Dozens of Honorspren we're immediately willing to bond. Why on earth would not a single Inkspren change their minds? That's like assuming there wasn't a single Soviet sympathizer in the USA during the cold war. I guarantee you there were. 2. Even if only a few bonded they can make more. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They all had armor at Feverstone Keep, they were 4+ ideal. And it is very hard to get there, Kaladin struggles a lot, faced suicidal thoughts all time, and deep dark depression. It was very hard for him to overcome all of this to reach 4th ideal, and as per WOB, if Kaladin did not make it in RoW, he would never become 4th Ideal Windrunner. It's fair to assume, with words from Skybreaker, that 4th Ideal is rare. Rarer. You forget that Higher Skybreaker ideals require them to act outside of Nale, which they don't want to do. Where is that WoB about Kaladin I've never seen it. And regardless Kaladin is an outlier case, not all Radiants are suicidal. It's been shown, via the Sapphire we saw in the epigraphs, that higher oathed Radiants will encourage those at lower levels. Once one individual gets it it will be easier for those coming after 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I'm sorry, what? You compare Ishar that had like 7000 years to master surges, to Dalinar, that is doing it for barely a year, and will have another 10 years IF he survives 5th book. Not a good comparison. Connection is the most powerful force of Cosmere, and very little is known about it even for us, it will be very hard for Dalinar to master it, as all he does now is just a hunch, rather than skill. On the contrary most of Bondsmiths powers have been locked during that time, Ishar has been a Bondsmith unchained for maybe 30-60 years at most. Brandon has one last book to show off Bondsmiths and he gave Dalinar ten days to learn, it must be possible. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Bands are extremely full of Investiture, it's the most invested thing apart from Nightblood ever made. It will be impossible to soulcast that. As stated above they are less invested that Shardblades. They are simple metalminds, just really full ones. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: he could move faster than speed of sound, For a few seconds. Marasi only did that for a short time, realized how fast she was moving, slowed down, and then ran to Wax, which used almost all the speed in the bands(BoM 407) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And Fullborn move faster than you can create any aluminum box, and he could easily break it with compound strength alone. Not to mention effects of emotional allomancy, that would paralyzed anyone, which we see in TLM. 1. TLR used the Well of Ascension to make himself that powerful. 2. Soulcasting is instant, so unless the Fullborn can teleport they can't outrun it. 3. Soulcasters can easily make building sized objects, the Fullborn would run out of strength long before they managed to get out. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Location of Harmony's perpendicularity was revealed in newspaper, not really hidden. It doesn't need to be hidden, but it's tucked in a hard to reach location in the mountains, and serves as a choke point. If Roshar captures that it's the end of Scadrials CR influence. Compare this to Roshar who could lose over thirty perpendicularities, and would still have access. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And can't there still be Ruin's and Preservation's perpendicularities hanging aroung? Not likely. The pits aren't active, so I doubt the Well of Ascension is either. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And they could just take boats, planks, anything that floats and ship them to CR, not a big problem, we don't know how CR of Scadrial is looking now, but Kandra have to boats, so not a problem. And there is land in CR. Non invested objects sink, the mists aren't water. There's a reason Hoid used a Cognitive Shadow, and an oar he had slapped Investiture on. And while land does exist, it only does so on water bodies, which are far away from the perpendicularity 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, because they did not do it before, and that revelations are gamechanger so they will not be willing to do it after. Also there were only 2000 Honorsprens in total, and they were the most numerous order, so I doubt any other sprens could have bigger numbers than Honorsprens, now all decimated by Recreance. The Honorspren who have had maybe 1500 years, and with only ten original members already number in the thousands. There were hundreds of Inkspren and they had 2,000 years to grow their numbers. The reason that Windrunners had the largest order are twofold. One is that they had a lot of squires, but two was that every Honorspren bonded. Additionally Maya said the words, she clearly wants Radiance to continue, therefore some will be convinced, either this time or as Maya continues to speak. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I would say there are more metalborns in total compared to Radiants, and metalborns had their whole life to train, and had best teachers with traditions of more than 1300 years. Metalborns are much more skilled and able to work in effective groups compared to Radiants, who just got their powers, and any new replacemant of dead one, will be completely untrained. Still Radiants had better combat related skills, including healing. But metalborns and regular Scadrials knows how to deal with someone with healing abilities - shot him until he runs out of healing. Considering that there were several secret allomancers, and that the Military has existed for a few years at most, with only a few thousand members, Iwould be surprised if there were 100 trained allomancers with useful metals. And the new radiant would likely be a squire of the last, meaning they would already be trained. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Roshar forces don't have stockpile of perfect crystals, so it might be possible that all of the Stormlight stored in regular crystals would simply vanished before reaching Scadrial. Tai-na gemhearts are easily the size of houses, they would last the trip, especially if they used Oathgates. And with Cohesion they can make gemstones perfect. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Modern siege is not the same as medieval one. They would need to take the city streat by streat, building by building, flat by flat - and in that fight, Scadrial has big advantage in that case, and knows it terrain too well. With the CR they can easily find resistance, so no hiding out. And with Cohesion and division they can simply collapse buildings, or walk right through them. With gravitation they can use aerial bombardment etc. Taking a city would be easy. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Assuming they would use them, even now on Roshar, they used it once in Kholinar. And spies can be caught and mislead. How would they be found? Shallan, who is probably the most incompetent spy ever managed to avoid one of the Ghostbloods most senior members. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No, that works, only on Roshar, only in Highstorms, only for very selected few. It's not comparable to Ferrings. On the contrary, it can be used anywhere the Bondsmith is along with anyone nearby. OB 62. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Seeing future is not a game changer? Vin would strongly disagree, Vorinism would strongly disagree. Everyone would, They are invincible, as seen in finale of HoA. And they also have Atium now, no Radiant could face someone with Atium, no matter of healing. In HoA Vin literally says that the only reason to use electrum is to counter Atium. Electrum only shows you 1-3 seconds into the future. And Atium would be blocked by anyone who hung out near a Truthwatcher. Not to mention the fact that it burns out so quickly that the Radiant would still be alive at the end. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Small one yes, big one can, but that is a problem for large number of people on board. Source? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Still Elendel has few of them, Elendel has only a single skimmer (the smaller ships). 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Set did it, they made multiple successful tests, Yes but why did they wait six years if they already had it functioning? It would explode but their delivery method, and blasting power weren't up to what they needed.  3 hours ago, alder24 said: all of that is in Wax hands now, including scientist. You mean the scientists he and Marasi killed? There might be some that are still alive but they will have lost most of them. Not to mention that Autonomy had to give them most of it. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They can make it easily work on Roshar No, the increased water content would detonate the Harmonium before the Trellium could. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Anit-light was only used in very small amounts, crystals worth of it, as it is very hard, slow, and limited process to produce even small amounts of it. The same thing can just be scaled up, use larger gems, and speed increases proportionally. And given that it's more powerful than anti-matter I don't think the amount produced is a problem. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Only Navani is capable to do it from Urithiru. Anyone can do it, all of the scientific principles already exist. And the only thing they need to do is make the plates and vacuum tube. With that anyone can make it. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Or 10 year of being dead. Still 10 years is not a long time, as in 1 year Dalinar barely made any progress. We cannot also speculate if Ishar will teach him as that's outside of currently published books. So we can as well said Ishar tripped, fell and broke his neck. That's Dalinar Kaladin and Szeth's entire plot in KoW. What would they do if they didn't get Ishar to teach Dalinar? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: That death stick is useless when your enemy is ranged one with artillery. Living plates would be a very rare sight, and could be destroy under heavy fire, dead plates - aim at the eyeholes, and they are dead, easy with modern and precise guns. All Orders can move faster than Scadrial can aim, and I don't care how precise you gun is eyeslits are a few mm wide. The bullet can't fit through that. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: A good electrum user could analyze the future quickly and move based on that, maybe warn their superiors if they see something special. One with Zinc could operate far better. Electrum can only see 1-3 seconds into the future, and only the users future. They won't see anything worth reporting. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Steelrunner, easily. But shooting a Windruner out of the sky is going to be very difficult. Um, no. Without compounding they would never exceed maybe 30 mph. And even with compounding it would take them years to get enough speed to hold it for long. 2 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Then how did Urithru fall?  The lightweavers were dealing with the Sons of Honor instead. And even if they were trying to spy on the Fused they couldn't communicate their discoveries because Secretspren would reveal their use of spanreeds. 1 hour ago, therunner said: And nope, Bands of Mourning are less Invested than both Shardplate and Shardblades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e4878). They are just full metalmind of multiple metals (as far as we know), and even non-Radiant soulcasters could soulcast those (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681) Thanks for those WoB's man. Edited November 26, 2022 by Frustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, therunner said: Kalak claims he nearly figured it out, that and he is now willing to talk to Shallan. So they could have figured it out, and being aware of Ghostblood kept it secret. Or Ghostbloods did steal that knowledge, and use it to move purify and move Dor. They can or cannot, but close is not the same as figuring it out. And Dor was already being distributed on Scadrial's CR in Secret History. 3 hours ago, therunner said: And Kaladin is having atypically bad time of Windrunner (what with no guidance), look at Lopen or Teft Teft had it easy? Strongly disagree, I would said he had it as hard as Kaladin to reach 3rd ideal. That struggle is very subjective and someone might think Teft has easy time, yet it only depended on Teft perception, and for him it was very hard. Many Radiants would face similar subjectivly hard struggle to reach 4th ideal. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Ishar learned enough to be named "Binder of gods" back on Ashyn, when he was still mortal. At the same time he (or another Bondsmith, if there were more) caused destruction of Ashyn, and enabled refuges to move to Roshar by super-powered Elsecalling. And he did not have advantage of prior expertise to consult, unlike Dalinar who has Stormfathar and Sibling, possibly Kalak as well. Yes, Stormfather, aka "I didn't know you can do it before you did it" is gonna be a lot of help. Sibling works the same. Kalak and Ishar are unreliable and unstable, and might not want to share that knowledge - Ash was a whole year with them and they did not get that much. 3 hours ago, therunner said: There are no Fullborn period, unlike Elsecallers of which one is definitely active on Roshar. If there are no futher Elsecallers, there are certainly no Fullborn. Let us be equally strict with both sides. And nope, Bands of Mourning are less Invested than both Shardplate and Shardblades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e4878). They are just full metalmind of multiple metals (as far as we know), and even non-Radiant soulcasters could soulcast those (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681) Elsecaller would have chance only if attacking from Cognitive, where they are safe (as Fullborn has no way to access them there). Yes, there are no Fullborn, and there will be no more (I started it only as what if), and there is only one Elsecaller. Fair to the Bands of Mourning, still that is not one metalmind but 16 combined, and fully charged wich a lot of Investiture, and that might be much more troublesome than regular single metalmind. Possible but very hard. And before one Elsecaller would do it, she would be killed by ultrasonic "medalion Fullborn". 3 hours ago, therunner said: So at this stage, you have around 6000 metalborn with abilities useful in combat or support roles, who are of fighting age, and most have next to no combat experience. That is it. Additionally not metals are equally rare, e.g. there is only few F-steel ferring in all of Elendel (population 5 million), but we don't any proper numbers on those distribution (though apparently coinshots and lurchers are among the most common, vs f-steel are among the rarest). Radiant are (at this point) all combat trained, and actually train and fight in groups, unlike metalborn who have been shown not doing anything like that in Era 2. Good calculations. Still is it that hard to take care of your skills? Marasi having "useless" metal without training was able to masterfully use it even in AoL. And teams of metalborn are present in era 1, and to some lesser extend era 2 - A-Iron and A-Steel team in AoL, TLM has copied Wax and Wayne and Marasi was suprised that Bilming police has no anti-allomancer team, suggesting that Elendel now has a teams of allomancers etc. They are mention sometime, but not fucused on. Most of the metalborns would be at similar level of skill as squires of Radiants. Still long way to go, yet deadly - like Vin killing her first Mistborn (kind of, not really, but you get the point). 3 hours ago, therunner said: Shooting a plane moving without appreciable acceleration is difficult with AA guns (and Scadrial does not have particularly advanced ones), and Windrunner is constantly accelerating and much smaller target than a plane. It will be hard. But Wax had grenade launchers that filled the air with shrapnels, that will do the job. You don't need to hit them, but to fill the air with bullets and shrapnels to drain them out of Stormlight. That is very doable. 3 hours ago, therunner said: How does Scadrial have advantage? Radiants have overwhelming advantage in close quarters combat, and Orders with Cohesion can move through city as if the walls were not even there. + every Radiant has a spren they can use for scouting. Radiants do have advantage, but regular rosharians don't, and they will be doing 95% of fighting in city of size of Elendel (look at scale on map). Scadrials knows the terrain, all little paths they can take, hideouts, canals, houses, towers etc. And they had guns, for rosharians to do any damage they had to be close, they won't pass positions and barricaded roads, filled with guns and machine gun nests, they won't get even close. Not to mention artillery support. Explosives will deal with Radiants, as they won't be able to sustain healing on that scale for long, most won't be be able to manoeuvre well in close quarters and their crystals holding Stormlight would get broken by explosives, and even single bullet. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Electrum while useful is not enough, 3rd oath windrunner would defeat full Mistborn, electrum or no, in a battle. Electrum misting is comparative cakewalk. With electrum - no way, he sees he's own future and reacts to it instinctively. And in the battle between Kaladin vs Kelsier per WoB, Kelsier would win - and they both are the best of the best. Electrum misting would be hard to deal with as long as he have electrum, he would be keeping Radiants busy with him, giving time for reinforcements to arrive and overwhelm them - that's the way. Again, battle at the end of HoA, regular dudes with atium defeated thousends of Koloses, electrum would work similarly, as we see in era 1. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Most scientist were running away from TwinSoul did they not? And it took Set 6 years to create the bombs, Roshar has 10 to learn to weaponize anti-light x light reactions. Navani used principles known to others in Rosharan scientific community, and based on her approach will share her findings. And Urithiru was not relevant in the process whatsoever. What Scadrial now has is a suicide ships, because they were unable to fit it on rockets. Not exactly ideal method of deployment. No, most were capture and traped in Marasi's time bubble. Many others would most likely be capture by the police. And they already has whole bunch of documents sot they can replicate all of that fast. Navani will share, but how many rosharians will be able to hear the rhythms that well? That's the bottleneck. The big bomb was too big to pack on the rocket. However they can make it much smaller, still very powerful, and fit it in the rocket. Very ideal, as you now have tactical nukes. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Once again, the plate does not have eyeslits. They can be closed even on deadplate, and typically are in battle. (i.e. Jasnah had her plate sealed airtight for most of the battle in RoW). So guns wont help there, and not every Scadrian is the same crackshot as Wax, in fact except him there are none, that is why he is the legandary Dawnshot and not run-of-the-mill lawman. For the artillery, why would Radiants stand waiting to get hit? Most orders are quite mobile, or heal better than the rest, or can build fortifications. Plate HAS eyeslits! Jasnah plate in RoW was the living plate, so it could adjust, but the regular dead one has eyeslits - Kaladin killed Helaran through eyeslits. Adolin and Dalinar rushing towards archers always cover their eyeslits. So guns would very much help here. And many opponents that Wax encounter were very skilled at aiming. Random bullet is as deadly as aimed one. Artillery do not shoots at one location but on the entire fields, square kilometers of land, making it hard to get on the other side. You can heal as long as you have Stormlight, with cracked crystal - no healing. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Instead Scadrial lacks resources as Trellium was rare to begin with, and now is no longer occurring as Autonomy divested. That's the problem, but they still have some leftover Trellium, more than 5 spikes, possibly more in some storages of Set. But few bombs would still be extreamly destructive. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Ehm, Radiants fought repeated wars to destroy and push away Singers, lobotomized Singers effectively committing cultural and social genocide (while under less threat than during actual Odium-driven Desolations) and Elsecaller advocated full-on genocide of at the time innocent Parshmen without jeopardizing her Oaths. Sure Windrunners might be against such tactics, but in individual engagements they will fight and they will fight to win (see, well nearly all of the battles across SA). The other Orders will take care of the 'dirty' strategies and tactics. You all forgets about differences in tactics between Roshar and Scadrial. Modern guns and artillery change everything. While Roshar has army marching in one line to engage in swordfights, Scadrial has probably the same tactics as used in Franco-Prussian war or even WW1 with introduction of ariships. Rosharians would be sitting ducks for any machine gun and artillery. Scadrial tactics is defence in depth - layers of lines, fortified positions, machine gun nest, artillery postions of different range - all spaning tens of kilometers in length and depth with position for reatret etc. That sheer difference in tactics would be a key factor in all engagements, and without modern weapons, rosharians would not be able to addapt. Radiants cannot be everywhere, they cannod hold positions for long, Stormlight will get exhausted. Most of the fighting is done by footman, not Radiant - see in Jasnah PoV in battle. Radiants alone will not hold the ground - offten said in SA. It's like sending unsupported tanks in the middle of enemy positions - they will do damage, but single rocket from man-pad and tank is done.  1 hour ago, Frustration said: . Why would they be harder to move that simply shifting the platform? Shardblades can move easily. Even the Sibling can be moved without trouble. Why would the Oathgates be different? It does not look very movable to be fair. And getting sprens out of Roshar would be hard. 10 years is to short to learn all of that, even if they knew about it being possible - they don't. Aimians did not move Oathgate, they cover it on top. And can Sibling be moved?? Source? 1 hour ago, Frustration said: You know, like a certain spren already known for stealing Connection, and has the ability to generate Voidlight. Which might be dead, traped or hidden - book 5 not 4 we don't know, better not include. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Dozens of Honorspren we're immediately willing to bond. Why on earth would not a single Inkspren change their minds? That's like assuming there wasn't a single Soviet sympathizer in the USA during the cold war. I guarantee you there were. Ehh, Because Inksprens seams holding much bigger grudge without feeling responsibility like Honorsprens, and now it's even worse! Inksprens believe that it's not only their life at stake, but whole of Roshar - they are much more logical than Honorsprens, so they will follow their logic. They will not join, as in their mind it would mean destruction of Roshar. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Rarer. You forget that Higher Skybreaker ideals require them to act outside of Nale, which they don't want to do. Where is that WoB about Kaladin I've never seen it. And regardless Kaladin is an outlier case, not all Radiants are suicidal. What progresing Ideal has to do with following Nale? Nale didn't stoped Szeth's training despite being enemies, why would he prevent his allies from reaching 4th ideal? That stupid. About Kaladin - it was somewhere, either related to RoW or OB (when he almost sworns 4th oath), maybe in addnotations. Can't find WoB, but Brandon was talking about Kaladin reaching 4th idael - either he says it and reach 5th one, or he would be stuck on 3th forever. All Radiants has their own struggle which in their mind might be as hard as Kaladin's and that's the only thing that matters. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Brandon has one last book to show off Bondsmiths and he gave Dalinar ten days to learn, it must be possible. How do you know that the duel would even take place in 10 days, and that's not the whole plan of Todium? How do you know that Dalinar would be one to fight, that he would use his Bondsmith's skills in that fight? All I got, was that his training with Ishar was going to be to remade Oathpact, not about duel. That training might be after duel, or not at all, if Dalinar got killed. Book 5, not 4. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: 2. Soulcasting is instant, so unless the Fullborn can teleport they can't outrun it. 3. Soulcasters can easily make building sized objects, the Fullborn would run out of strength long before they managed to get out. Time bubbles. Still with a little of steel spead, time bubbles, grenades, and leaching and coinshooting, all soulcasters would get killed before they even realized what they are dealing with. And that is important. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: It doesn't need to be hidden, but it's tucked in a hard to reach location in the mountains, and serves as a choke point. If Roshar captures that it's the end of Scadrials CR influence. Compare this to Roshar who could lose over thirty perpendicularities, and would still have access. Roshar has bigger advantage on homegroud, that I said before. But that perpendicularity is guarded by Koloses, and it would be the same chokepoint for Roshar if they capture it - so easy to cut off, so easy to focus all your forces on that position, and blast them into oblivion, before more reinforcement came. Or send H-T bomb there and do nothing, work as well. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Not likely. The pits aren't active, so I doubt the Well of Ascension is either The Well most likely not, but harmony could change something and move both perpendicularities somewhere else. But still, I agree. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Non invested objects sink, the mists aren't water. Easy, metalmind-ships for the win. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Tai-na gemhearts are easily the size of houses, they would last the trip, especially if they used Oathgates. And with Cohesion they can make gemstones perfect. Oh, good luck with that, another genocide of sapient species? Why not, lets kill everything with gems before Scadrials even arrives. And they don't know how to make perfect gemstones still, so they might not made them in big numbers within 10 years. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: With the CR they can easily find resistance, so no hiding out. They won't be able to distinguished civilians from soldiers, and Rosharians are not used to fight house to house. And as I said, not every Rosharian is Radiant. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: How would they be found? Seekers... and Leachers. Anything more? 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Source Didn't in TLM Wax and Max boarded ship before Max get his amulet? And logicly, one person weight is too little compare to the whole weight of big ship, so there is a little margin there for only few people. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Yes but why did they wait six years if they already had it functioning? It would explode but their delivery method, and blasting power weren't up to what they needed. Set needed to destroy all of Elendel (5mil people) from safe distance - we don't need that, smaller bombs would be more useful on tactical level in war than big strategic one like that. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: You mean the scientists he and Marasi killed? There might be some that are still alive but they will have lost most of them. Not to mention that Autonomy had to give them most of it. She capture most of them in the bubble, not to mention many others outside that room in caves, now all arrested. Autonomy give them that knowledge but it didn't disappear, after she's gone... And it's on capured papers. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: No, the increased water content would detonate the Harmonium before the Trellium could. You know you can seal it off? 1 hour ago, Frustration said: The same thing can just be scaled up, use larger gems, and speed increases proportionally. And given that it's more powerful than anti-matter I don't think the amount produced is a problem. I would give Roshar the same amount of explosive power as Scadrial after 10 years (they might not go this way, as anti-light might be to valuable for killing fuesed and sprens). But that just raw power, no delivery systems. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Anyone can do it, all of the scientific principles already exist. And the only thing they need to do is make the plates and vacuum tube. With that anyone can make it. Hitting that perfect note is quite important and that might take time for everyone else. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: That's Dalinar Kaladin and Szeth's entire plot in KoW. What would they do if they didn't get Ishar to teach Dalinar? Because the book is still not published yet? You don't know what will happen so everything is equally as probable. Todium might win and kill everyone. Or asteroid might hit Roshar and kill everyone. So let's talk on what in book 4, and carefully predict future base on that we know, and not that we don't know. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: All Orders can move faster than Scadrial can aim, and I don't care how precise you gun is eyeslits are a few mm wide. The bullet can't fit through that. Rain of bullets and shrapnels on 1km long field is as dangerous for Plates as precise shots - and most of them won't have plate, and most of Rosharians are not Radiants. 3 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: It's like the Civil War. One side has more romantic ideals of war and honor with better generals and *technically* better troops, but the other has a larger industrial base, navy, and the scorched earth tactic. Or like Napoleon invading Spain and Russia, best gennerals, tactics, soldiers and cannons won't do much when they struggle for supplies and logistics.  Discussion of an possible alien invasion through CR is futile as that is exactly what happened in TLM. And that invasion was stoped by Marasi with barely any support, intel, manpower and resources - it is nothing compared to planet wide mobilisation. And we don't even know, what man of gold and red are even capable of. We can assume they would easily deal with any misting and ferring on their way. But it wasn't metal arts that Autonomy consider a threat but technological progress alone! Which is very telling. That could mean that Scadrial now possessed technology that can face any Investiture based abilities. And as we could all see, stoping invasion from CR, that had support of inside and powerful organisation, in undisclosed localisation, that had created their own way from CR to PR, with unknown abilities and weaponry, that was in work for more than 6-10 years, was prevented basically by ONE person (with support of an team) and ONE grenade. It was that simple despite the odds. Now mobilized whole, united Basin and make them face the same threat with all resources, manpower, weaponry and technology, and invasion from CR is just impossible. You can add to this Malwish Consortium (and their enemies) and it's even more impossible than ever. Invasion from CR is just not gonna work anytime soon. Radiants on Roshar do not fight on battlefields alone, they have thousands of soldiers fighting as well, without them, Radiants would be quickly overwhelmed. And Scadrial has better tech, tactics, weapons, and logistics. Shard won't hold the ground. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn - and that is what we currently all doing, discussing who is better, Radiants or Metalborn (Radiants). So how about focusing less on few hundreds of Radiants/Metalborn aka tanks that sometimes can fly, and more on hundreds of thousands of regular soldiers? Edited November 26, 2022 by alder24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 Quote Stormfather is omnipresent on Roshar, not Scadrial. Which is very important distinction. Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation is, if the Stormfather's Bondsmith can't surgebind anywhere neither can allomancers. But both can. 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: LAnd in the battle between Kaladin vs Kelsier per WoB, Kelsier would win Only by killing Kaladin in his sleep. If Kaladin could fight he would wipe the floor with Kelsier Spoiler Questioner Who would win in a fight, Kaladin or Kelsier? Brandon Sanderson Kelsier, he fights dirty. Kaladin has, probably, more raw power-- I don't know. Kelsier's going to win easy though. He's just going to murder him in his sleep. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e335 Kaladin could beat Vin, how on earth would Kelsier win? Spoiler Questioner Who would win in a fight? Vin or Kaladin? Brandon Sanderson It depends on if you convince Vin the need to *inaudible*. Kaladin's a soldier. He wins on the battlefield. He does not win if you sneak up on him at night. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018    14 minutes ago, alder24 said: And getting sprens out of Roshar would be hard. 10 years is to short to learn all of that, even if they knew about it being possible Hoid does it, why would he not tell Jasnah? 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: What progresing Ideal has to do with following Nale? Nale didn't stoped Szeth's training despite being enemies, why would he prevent his allies from reaching 4th ideal? That stupid. He doesn't they do. The spren say that the fifth ideal means no longer following the third, which most swear to Nale. The Skybreakers love and respect Nale, and they don't need to progress, so why leave him? 18 minutes ago, alder24 said: All Radiants has their own struggle which in their mind might be as hard as Kaladin's and that's the only thing that matters. That is strictly not true, there are people willing to say all five ideals on the spot, along with spren who will actively seek them out. Spoiler Greywatch Is a Radiant spren more attracted to someone who is less emotionally mature but with the potential to reach all five Ideals, or someone who's emotionally ready to swear all five on the spot? Brandon Sanderson Depends on the spren. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15704    20 minutes ago, alder24 said: How do you know that the duel would even take place in 10 days, and that's not the whole plan of Todium? How do you know that Dalinar would be one to fight, that he would use his Bondsmith's skills in that fight? All I got, was that his training with Ishar was going to be to remade Oathpact, not about duel. That training might be after duel, or not at all, if Dalinar got killed. Book 5, not 4. Promises and payoff. I've listened to Brandon's lectures and I know how writing works, if the duel is foiled it undoes everything the coalition has worked for for three books. That won't happen. The duel will take place despite Taravangian's best attempts. Book 5 happens before AoL, if you refuse to give Roshar anything past RoW we can set Scadrial back to before AoL and they get completely annihilated. 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: and it would be the same chokepoint for Roshar if they capture it - so easy to cut off, so easy to focus all your forces on that position, and blast them into oblivion, before more reinforcement came. Or send H-T bomb there and do nothing, work as well. Why on earth would they try to invade through it? Just soulcast a massive block of aluminum on top of it and call it a day. Invade through your own perpendicularities and Oathgates. 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: It does not look very movable to be fair. And getting sprens out of Roshar would be hard. 10 years is to short to learn all of that, even if they knew about it being possible - they don't. Aimians did not move Oathgate, they cover it on top. And can Sibling be moved?? Source? 1. The Oathgate spren can be moved off world as easily as any other 2. The aimians don't have surgebinding to make moving the Oathgate easy. 3. The Sibling is present throughout all the stone of Urithiru, but that's cut away and removed, or manipulated with Cohesion all the time. None of them are harder to move than giant shardblades. 31 minutes ago, alder24 said: Which might be dead, traped or hidden - book 5 not 4 we don't know, better not include. Q. Why are the Ghostbloods looking for BAM? A. Because she can disconnect Voidlight from Roshar. Any Bondsmith can do the same. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Oh, good luck with that, another genocide of sapient species? Why not, lets kill everything with gems before Scadrials even arrives. And they don't know how to make perfect gemstones still, so they might not made them in big numbers within 10 years. Just collect the gemhearts that are on the seafloor. It's not like the dead ones need them. And why would they not spend time figuring out perfect gems? They are more important now than ever. With cohesion they can try as many times as they like, turning the gemstone soft, and shaping it until it stops leaking. 36 minutes ago, alder24 said:  Ehh, Because Inksprens seams holding much bigger grudge without feeling responsibility like Honorsprens, and now it's even worse! Inksprens believe that it's not only their life at stake, but whole of Roshar - they are much more logical than Honorsprens, so they will follow their logic. They will not join, as in their mind it would mean destruction of Roshar. You have ONE example and use that as the baseline for the entire species? 37 minutes ago, alder24 said: They won't be able to distinguished civilians from soldiers, and Rosharians are not used to fight house to house. And as I said, not every Rosharian is Radiant. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn. I'm the one who started the discussion I know better then anyone what it is for. It's pretty easy to find people who are dangerous from those hiding based on position. Near the window = threat. Away in the basement holding onto family = not threat. And while no not every Rosharan is a radiant, there are more than enough of them to do most of the work, like capturing Scadrian weapons and replicating firearms for the rest of the army. 41 minutes ago, alder24 said:  Seekers... and Leachers. Anything more? Lightweavers can't be found by secretspren, and there are only a handful of leechers, as seen by how they had to call in one from a different octent in SoS. It would be impossible to touch everyone in the entire command structure in any reasonable time, much less the entire army. 44 minutes ago, alder24 said: Didn't in TLM Wax and Max boarded ship before Max get his amulet? And logicly, one person weight is too little compare to the whole weight of big ship, so there is a little margin there for only few people. Yes, but they were still given them. If it didn't matter why bother? They were only going to be there a short time. 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: Autonomy give them that knowledge but it didn't disappear, after she's gone... And it's on capured papers. The papers they ripped to shreds and then soaked in water? 49 minutes ago, alder24 said:  You know you can seal it off? Then how did Wayne get the water in the barrels? They have to be exposed to air at some point, it would be too dangerous to bring it all the way from Scadrial like that, so they have to take the Harmonium out of the oil on Roshar. 52 minutes ago, alder24 said: I would give Roshar the same amount of explosive power as Scadrial after 10 years (they might not go this way, as anti-light might be to valuable for killing fuesed and sprens). But that just raw power, no delivery systems. Anti-light is far more powerful than anything Scadrial has, fist sized gems could easily take out Elendel. And delivery is easy, build the bomb, set up a timer to mix the lights and drop it from the CR into the physical. And Stormlight is so common why would they need to conserve it? 54 minutes ago, alder24 said: Hitting that perfect note is quite important and that might take time for everyone else. You can make instruments that hit it for you. Like the sound plates Navani used. 56 minutes ago, alder24 said: So how about focusing less on few hundreds of Radiants/Metalborn aka tanks that sometimes can fly, and more on hundreds of thousands of regular soldiers? Roshar has higher population and can soulcast everything they need to make guns. Steal a few, reverse engineer them, and boom. Alternatively they could make fabrial firearms after seeing guns for the first time. Easy Roshar win. 59 minutes ago, alder24 said: Dission of an possible alien invasion through CR is futile as that is exactly what happened in TLM. And that invasion was stoped by Marasi with barely any support, intel, manpower and resources - it is nothing compared to planet wide mobilisation. No, it was stopped because Autonomy decided that Scadrial had earned being left alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, therunner said: They are divided across 32 disciplines, so less then a thousand for each metal. It's not equal. Some have far more than others.  3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That's Dalinar Kaladin and Szeth's entire plot in KoW. What would they do if they didn't get Ishar to teach Dalinar? 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Ishar's insane and taking spren apart.  3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: All Orders can move faster than Scadrial can aim, and I don't care how precise you gun is eyeslits are a few mm wide. The bullet can't fit through that. 5 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said: ...No. Millimeters? Really?  40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Only by killing Kaladin in his sleep. If Kaladin could fight he would wipe the floor with Kelsier  But that's the entire point. That's how Roshar would win. That's how the Taliban won, that's how the Americans won the west, that's how Germany conquered Europe, that's how wars are conducted. You don't try to kill all your enemies. You scare them.  40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That is strictly not true, there are people willing to say all five ideals on the spot, along with spren who will actively seek them out.  But I don't think there are many.  40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: 1. The Oathgate spren can be moved off world as easily as any other 2. The aimians don't have surgebinding to make moving the Oathgate easy. 3. The Sibling is present throughout all the stone of Urithiru, but that's cut away and removed, or manipulated with Cohesion all the time. None of them are harder to move than giant shardblades I feel like the Scadrians could set up an ambush if you moved them through PR (thanks for the lingo, Frustration), but if you could sneak it through the CR into, say, the Southern Roughs, it'd be very effective. Although any talented seeker could find it eventually.  40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And while no not every Rosharan is a radiant, there are more than enough of them to do most of the work, like capturing Scadrian weapons and replicating firearms for the rest of the army. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Firearms are tough to make. Believe me. Rosharans don't have the technology. This is something I have some expertise on, knowing a couple gunsmiths/shop owners and a few military historians. (Friends of family, people I've met.) Rosharans would need: Much more advanced metal refining techniques, gunpowder (something they've never encountered), a way to bore out the barrels (which requires them to have even more technologies), and, if they want the level of Scadrian firearms, rifling, a technique that requires expertise and tools that the Rosharans are literal centuries away from. Ideally, they'd start with bronze-cast cannons and work their way down and up, but the Scadrians are far past that point, far past the musket and flintlock stage, reaching the artillery/cartridge stage, so Roshar would need to put their best scientists on catching up centuries of technological development without material, expertise, or technology. Most of the points in your point are very valid, but this is one that will never, ever happen. Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum. And if you want to argue about the timeline, then I'll say that we know Lost Metal is before Five, and I'm assuming this would happen later, and the chemist said electrolysis would be within five to ten years. You say that firearms depend on the troops, but you're not talking about the technological jump Rome made in the Punic War. You're talking about skipping eight centuries of technological advancement. Even with fabrials, that's a stretch. For the men of red and gold, I thought Marasi and company burned it all away so that the portal cut out. All this said, though, I want to try to be a bit of a mediator here and say that these arguments are really refining, especially when you look at 4 pages back. And it's a really good topic, so just kinda keep your cool and have respect for the honestly pretty good opinions on both sides. Also, is making a chart or something to keep track of the individual arguments a good idea? Or bad idea, or just unnesecary. Edited November 26, 2022 by Flaming Coinshot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 7 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: All this said, though, I want to try to be a bit of a mediator here and say that these arguments are really refining, especially when you look at 4 pages back. And it's a really good topic, so just kinda keep your cool and have respect for the honestly pretty good opinions on both sides. Thanks for filling that role. 11 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:  (thanks for the lingo, Frustration). No problem. 7 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: ...No. Millimeters? Really? About 5 is enough for adequate vision. 9 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: But that's the entire point. That's how Roshar would win. That's how the Taliban won, that's how the Americans won the west, that's how Germany conquered Europe, that's how wars are conducted. You don't try to kill all your enemies. You scare them. Well capture Re-Shephir, and releases midnight essence in Elendel. And the Thrill to, because why not. 11 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum. And if you want to argue about the timeline, then I'll say that we know Lost Metal is before Five, and I'm assuming this would happen later, and the chemist said electrolysis would be within five to ten years. SA 5 is before AoL, not the other way around. But even if they had it shardplate would still be just as useful. And a shardmace backed by shardplates strength will break aluminum. 15 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Firearms are tough to make. Believe me. Rosharans don't have the technology. This is something I have some expertise on, knowing a couple gunsmiths/shop owners and a few military historians. (Friends of family, people I've met.) Rosharans would need: Much more advanced metal refining techniques, gunpowder (something they've never encountered), a way to bore out the barrels (which requires them to have even more technologies), and, if they want the level of Scadrian firearms, rifling, a technique that requires expertise and tools that the Rosharans are literal centuries away from. Ideally, they'd start with bronze-cast cannons and work their way down and up, but the Scadrians are far past that point, far past the musket and flintlock stage, reaching the artillery/cartridge stage, so Roshar would need to put their best scientists on catching up centuries of technological development without material, expertise, or technology. Most of the points in your point are very valid, but this is one that will never, ever happen. Why would they use gunpowder? I have a number of ways they could do it with fabrials. I actually have an entire thread about it Shameless self plug https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108457-fabrial-firearms/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaming Coinshot he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why would they use gunpowder? I have a number of ways they could do it with fabrials.  You're still ignoring the centuries of technology required. Sure, gunpowder might not be necessitated but everything else is still required.  9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: About 5 is enough for adequate vision. 31 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Really? Ok, I didn't know that.  9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Well capture Re-Shephir, and releases midnight essence in Elendel. And the Thrill to, because why not. 31 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Again, Seekers and Tineyes could probably prevent that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration he/him Posted November 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: Again, Seekers and Tineyes could probably prevent that. How do you prevent the Thrill? And nightly attacks by creatures that are made of shadows will wear down morale. 3 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said: You're still ignoring the centuries of technology required. Sure, gunpowder might not be necessitated but everything else is still required. The firing mechanism can be reduced to simple wires, and they can copy scadrian metal alloys. The only thing left is the reloading mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts