Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

But the smoke is also made on groud level from the barrels, but yes, it would help Windrunners, unless there were some obstacles like hills. And how much light would be needed to carry huge rocks with them high into the air and then drop them? That might be a problem, and not to mention accuracy.

Considering that windrunners carried Navani's floating platform across a continent, not a lot of stormlight. And aiming is easy, they just have to will the boulder in their chosen direction.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

For him it might be as he knows Ishar is involved.

He also knows Nale hangs out around the purelake, would he tell the honorspren to tell him if they see any purelakers?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Mists are not that often, and it wouldn't?

Mists come out every couple of nights, they aren't a one in a million thing. And the mists flicker with internal light, so it would be hidden

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Ilusions take time to form, Stormlight is moving out of Lightweaver to form in place - that would be visable. And you are talking about putting huge illusions in the most busy area in the whole camp - where, night or day, people constantly walking by or into the storages - you can't isolate them from the ilusions, guards would be alarmed immediately.

Illusions can be formed quickly and at great distance from the lightweaver. Shallan makes an entire army in OB, and large groups multiple times. And at late night the only people awake will be guards

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, but that was to Szeth to save his own skin, what he told to Dalinar is different, still not 100% sure that's true, but it might be, as Taravangian promised to share that knowledge, so we might as well take it as truth for now. But if he did not share that, you don't have much Half-Shards as they are not on your side anymore. Just a few of them.

They shared the creation of half-shards in OB.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Again, that's not how fission works. 6 years for secret organisation with relatively low resources is still short, and impressive when they most likely didn't understand what they were really doing, but not enough to make it perfect - it took project manhattan 3 years to develop first nukes and they had backing of the US economy plus the most brilliant minds of 20th century. And still what they made was not at maximum efficiency - it was far from that. Going back to the biggest non-fussion bomb Ivy KIng (540 kt) detonated in 1952, used 60kg of Uranium. Little Boy used 64 kg of Uranium, 4kg more, and had only 15 kt yield. Ivy King was 36 times more powerful than Little Boy, with lower mass of fissable material. Fission doesn't scale up proportionally with the mass, it's not that easy.

They had Autonomy telling them how to improve it. That's not just a brilliant mind, that is one of the 16 most brilliant minds in the cosmere, who already knows how to do it, explaining it to them. If they didn't reach max efficiency I would be surprised.

And you can only react the harmonium that is around the trellium bit, so excess harmonium won't react. It is a pure calculation of mass.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And how does Harmonium-water reaction work? We don't know. Wayne had only small bottle of water with him, and would that cause the entire Harmonium to react? I daubt it. And to another thing, that aligns with my estimats, is that Wax was not engulfed by fireball, and he was very close to it.

Harmonium reacts to water the same way alkali metals do.

Spoiler

Rhapsody (paraphrased)

You have described ettmetal as some kind of super-cesium. After the reaction with water, is there residual ettmetal hydroxide and what are its properties?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is. There's the potential they'll find it and use it, but as far as the properties are concerned, you get a RAFO.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

And most of the blast went up rather than out, so using Wax as a benchmark isn't entirely possible.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And killing Dalinar alone would be the end for Roshar. 

Except that spren find it helpful to bond again quickly, and that up to the recreance there was always at least two bondsmiths.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Considering that windrunners carried Navani's floating platform across a continent, not a lot of stormlight. And aiming is easy, they just have to will the boulder in their chosen direction.

But the Navani's carriage was out of wood, not a huge stone rock, weighing few tons.
With the few trick, like flickering lights, it would be confusing for Windrunners to find correct target.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He also knows Nale hangs out around the purelake, would he tell the honorspren to tell him if they see any purelakers?

But does Nale possesses the knowledge that might help him escape Roshar? So why would he bother with purelakers?

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Mists come out every couple of nights, they aren't a one in a million thing. And the mists flicker with internal light, so it would be hidden

I didn't say they are rare, just not everyday. It would be spotable if the guards recognise it.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Illusions can be formed quickly and at great distance from the lightweaver. Shallan makes an entire army in OB, and large groups multiple times. And at late night the only people awake will be guards

In OB Shallan had a freshly sweared Bondsmith around, that made first perpendicularity in thousands of years behind her back. 
It's a war time, ammunition needs to be delivered for morning bombardment, wounded treated, food deliverd to kitchens for breakfast, messages for officers - not to mention regular patrols around vital points of a camp. Anyone of them walking through illusions would raise the alarm. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They shared the creation of half-shards in OB.

So it's safe to assume that half-shards are traping high sprens, as Taravangian said.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They had Autonomy telling them how to improve it. That's not just a brilliant mind, that is one of the 16 most brilliant minds in the cosmere, who already knows how to do it, explaining it to them. If they didn't reach max efficiency I would be surprised.

How big was Autonomy involvement? If she was that involved why didn't they make rockets that could reach Elendel and carry the bomb?

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And you can only react the harmonium that is around the trellium bit, so excess harmonium won't react. It is a pure calculation of mass.

Where do you got that it's only around Trellium? Couldn't it be a chain reaction, as Harmonium splitting is causing more Harmonium to split? What if Trellium was bigger would it react with Harmonium farther away? They could place enough Trellium to react with all Harmonium, or change the placement of Trellium. We don't know with what forces or particles it interacts, but it doesn't seems to be radioactive (nor Harmonium), so I think it could react via strong nuclear forces or electromagnetism (not like in real fission, in which neutrons splits atoms). We need Brandon on this one.

And I gave you multiple examples of how it's not pure calculation of mass with real life fission physics. And here you also gave example of that, as if it's limited to just around Trellium, than adding more Harmonium won't make explosion bigger, as it's not reacting with Trellium (by your statement), it could even decrease the power. Harmonium is fissable material, not Trellium.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Harmonium reacts to water the same way alkali metals do.

So, what would happened if you have big amounts of Cesium, like a few tons of it, and pour just 0.5l of water onto it? Would all of Cesium reacts? I don't know, I'm not good at chemistry. From the reaction equasion 2Cs + 2H2O → 2CsOH + H2 it doesn't looks like it. So not all Harmonium would react with Wayne's water?

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And most of the blast went up rather than out, so using Wax as a benchmark isn't entirely possible.

That's my point, and he wasn't engulfed by fireball, or burned by thermal radiation - which would happend if the yield was big enough. Above 1Mt fireball has a radius of more than 1km. 

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Except that spren find it helpful to bond again quickly, and that up to the recreance there was always at least two bondsmiths.

And how would that help somehow to recover Bondsmith with 11 years of experience and unique bond with Stormfather? Not much. They would be doomed without Dalinar. 

[StanLemon]

One thing, Harmonium acts like alkaline metals but its reaction is many many times more potent. All evidence in the book shows that Harmonium explosions are massive in their own right even before you get to matter/energy conversion levels 

[Frustration he/him]

25 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

One thing, Harmonium acts like alkaline metals but its reaction is many many times more potent. All evidence in the book shows that Harmonium explosions are massive in their own right even before you get to matter/energy conversion levels 

My calculations take it being many times more powerful into consideration. Even if I underestimated my increase in the amount of harmonium would make up for it.

50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the Navani's carriage was out of wood, not a huge stone rock, weighing few tons.

They wouldn't need anything more than a thousand pounds.

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

With the few trick, like flickering lights, it would be confusing for Windrunners to find correct target.

Their spren can find the right spot for them.

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But does Nale possesses the knowledge that might help him escape Roshar? So why would he bother with purelakers?

By this point he would have already gotten all the knowledge he could out of Ishar, so Ishar doesn't know anything more than Kalak does on this point.

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 didn't say they are rare, just not everyday. It would be spotable if the guards recognise it.

Lets say the guard did recognize it, which I don't think is possible, but lets say he does, he either starts screaming, and wakes people up causing sleep deprivation. He sends someone else for help--causing sleep deprivation--is killed and the food spoiled anyway, or leaves himself, causes sleep deprivation and the food is spoiled anyway.

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In OB Shallan had a freshly sweared Bondsmith around, that made first perpendicularity in thousands of years behind her back.

He wasn't boosting her and the only thing the perpendicularity did was give her fuel.

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So it's safe to assume that half-shards are traping high sprens, as Taravangian said.

Why?

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

How big was Autonomy involvement? If she was that involved why didn't they make rockets that could reach Elendel and carry the bomb?

They tried, Telsin said Autonomy was pushing them in that direction, but they couldn't figure out the ballistics of it. Not to mention the fact that they'd need a generator on the missile that could supply more electricity than industrial cables are capable of.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Where do you got that it's only around Trellium? Couldn't it be a chain reaction, as Harmonium splitting is causing more Harmonium to split? What if Trellium was bigger would it react with Harmonium farther away? They could place enough Trellium to react with all Harmonium, or change the placement of Trellium. We don't know with what forces or particles it interacts, but it doesn't seems to be radioactive (nor Harmonium), so I think it could react via strong nuclear forces or electromagnetism (not like in real fission, in which neutrons splits atoms). We need Brandon on this one.

There was a secondary reaction of Harmonium in Wax's lab. If it started a chain reaction that blast would have killed him.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And here you also gave example of that, as if it's limited to just around Trellium, than adding more Harmonium won't make explosion bigger, as it's not reacting with Trellium (by your statement), it could even decrease the power. Harmonium is fissable material, not Trellium.

No, it is mass, it's just that the mass of the Trellium is also relevant.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

So, what would happened if you have big amounts of Cesium, like a few tons of it, and pour just 0.5l of water onto it? Would all of Cesium reacts? I don't know, I'm not good at chemistry. From the reaction equasion 2Cs + 2H2O → 2CsOH + H2 it doesn't looks like it. So not all Harmonium would react with Wayne's water?

Even if it didn't react with Wayne's flask it would once it hit the water outside the boat.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And how would that help somehow to recover Bondsmith with 11 years of experience and unique bond with Stormfather? Not much. They would be doomed without Dalinar. 

Squires. And now that the Stormfather is sentient at all times he will know what to do and can pass it on.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They wouldn't need anything more than a thousand pounds.

500kg rock is still a big one. They would have to carry it for very long way, and it would slowly drain them out of Stormlight. Just as Scadrial wanted.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Their spren can find the right spot for them.

Yes it can, but how many artillery pieces can they destroy at once? Not everyone, and losses would be quickly replenished by industry. And rocks falling from skies, can be slightly pushed out of course by explosions when passing through the range of artillery.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

By this point he would have already gotten all the knowledge he could out of Ishar, so Ishar doesn't know anything more than Kalak does on this point.

And you know this because Kalak told you? Or maybe because Ash or Nale are the examples of other heralds having knowledge about other surges? It's about ability of Bondsmithing that Kalak needs, if he had figured it out.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Lets say the guard did recognize it, which I don't think is possible, but lets say he does, he either starts screaming, and wakes people up causing sleep deprivation. He sends someone else for help--causing sleep deprivation--is killed and the food spoiled anyway, or leaves himself, causes sleep deprivation and the food is spoiled anyway.

Yeeeah, that's make sense. No it didn't. That's why guards are for, that's why night shift is for, that's why patrols are for. Vital parts of the camp are guarded by multiple guards, and patrol often (not just by 2 people). Even if whole camp wakes up (but it wouldn't), they would be sleeping again after 10 minutes, and that won't cause much sleep deprivation. And if alarm is sounded, Lightweavers would abandon their mission on the spot.

Also did we ever had someone making huge illusions right in front of someone's eye that they did not noticed? Shallan is always making her illusions out of anyone's sight.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He wasn't boosting her and the only thing the perpendicularity did was give her fuel.

I'm not talking about boosting, I'm talking about special combination of making first perpendicularity and swearing next ideal as a Bondsmith, and how that affected people nearby. Taln gains his sanity back, Jasnah could do soulcasting like never before etc. The three realms were almost one at that point. Shallan had lot's of Stormlight, and what was notieced by Jasnah, she might even soulcast to add matter/mass to thier illusions. That was one time thing due to special circumstances.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why?

Cause it would be pointless for Taravangian to lie when Dalinar could easily check it for himself now?

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They tried, Telsin said Autonomy was pushing them in that direction, but they couldn't figure out the ballistics of it. Not to mention the fact that they'd need a generator on the missile that could supply more electricity than industrial cables are capable of.

Yes, that what I was talking about. Autonomy did not gave them answers to the all the problems Set was facing. She gave them help but they had to figure it out themselves. Not to mention, H-T reaction was still a novelty for even Autonomy. Don't forget it was Telsin bargain with Autonomy, that she would control Scadrial instead of destroying it, as Autonomy had a back up plan.
And where you got that about industrial cables? Yet somehow they had working rockets for smaller warheads, but that was not what they wanted.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

There was a secondary reaction of Harmonium in Wax's lab. If it started a chain reaction that blast would have killed him.

Yes, that wasn't chain reaction, it was Harmonium reacting with water/water vapor in the air. And it was long after the initial fission reaction. Wax was holding Harmonium in his hands. Not a smart move, he admitted that.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, it is mass, it's just that the mass of the Trellium is also relevant.

I don't really understand you at this point as I gave you multiple examples as how it's not just a mass in case fission reaction. Trellium is relevant, but it's placement might be even more revelant, allowing for lower Trellium mass but bigger explosion. We don't really know that much about it. But I yes, Trellium is important too. 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even if it didn't react with Wayne's flask it would once it hit the water outside the boat.

That's true.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Squires. And now that the Stormfather is sentient at all times he will know what to do and can pass it on.

And how many squires Bondsmiths currently have? How many candidates for squires are currently known? Zero. Even if Dalinar gets his squires, they would still be years behind him, and Stromfather is known for "you're not ready for this" and "you will know it when you're ready for it". They would not be any replacement for Dalinar.

[Frustration he/him]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

500kg rock is still a big one. They would have to carry it for very long way, and it would slowly drain them out of Stormlight. Just as Scadrial wanted.

Stormlight can easily be generated,

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes it can, but how many artillery pieces can they destroy at once? Not everyone, and losses would be quickly replenished by industry. And rocks falling from skies, can be slightly pushed out of course by explosions when passing through the range of artillery.

Even for modern countries you can't just replace artillery pieces like that. And how many would they need to actually make a half-decent barrier? Tens of thousands at the least. And you can't redirect the boulders as they will be pulled towards where the artillery is, and you can't hit them because you can't aim artillery that quickly.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

And you know this because Kalak told you? Or maybe because Ash or Nale are the examples of other heralds having knowledge about other surges? It's about ability of Bondsmithing that Kalak needs, if he had figured it out.

Because if Kalak was so desperate that he would tell people to be on the lookout for people from the same country that Ishar is currently in, he would have spoken to him during the previous thousand years.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yeeeah, that's make sense. No it didn't. That's why guards are for, that's why night shift is for, that's why patrols are for. Vital parts of the camp are guarded by multiple guards, and patrol often (not just by 2 people). Even if whole camp wakes up (but it wouldn't), they would be sleeping again after 10 minutes, and that won't cause much sleep deprivation. And if alarm is sounded, Lightweavers would abandon their mission on the spot.

Back to sleep in ten minuets? That's not realistic for brand new recruits during their first time at war. And they would make a lot of mistakes like only having two guards with no night patrol, especially at first, because they've never been to war before.

And why would they abandon it on the spot when they can still complete the mission without risk?

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Also did we ever had someone making huge illusions right in front of someone's eye that they did not noticed? Shallan is always making her illusions out of anyone's sight.

It wouldn't be huge, just a sphere around their head.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not talking about boosting, I'm talking about special combination of making first perpendicularity and swearing next ideal as a Bondsmith, and how that affected people nearby. Taln gains his sanity back, Jasnah could do soulcasting like never before etc. The three realms were almost one at that point. Shallan had lot's of Stormlight, and what was notieced by Jasnah, she might even soulcast to add matter/mass to thier illusions. That was one time thing due to special circumstances.

Taln's mind was restored because a radiant ideal was said, just like how Nale's mind was restored at the end of Edgedanncer. And Illumination doesn't use the CR, so the realms being close doesn't matter for it.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cause it would be pointless for Taravangian to lie when Dalinar could easily check it for himself now?

Not necessarily. As long as it causes some form of distress it pushes Dalinar closer to breaking. Even the memory of trauma can be enough at times. And considering that Dalinar was practically comatose for the next week I'd say that it was effective. Compare the time at Vedenar to Theylan city. At Vedenar Dalinar feels the Thrill, Taravangian approaches him with a moral dilemma, and Dalinar is excommunicated. At Theylan City the secrets of the Recreance, the visions with Odium, and the Highking come out. Each time it is three problems, and Taravangian is behind them.

Additionally Taravangian is working with Odium, if Nahel spren could be imprisoned in gems that easily they wouldn't have needed to make ani-stormlight. And Raboniel has studied modern fabrials, so there is no way she wouldn't know about it.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that what I was talking about. Autonomy did not gave them answers to the all the problems Set was facing. She gave them help but they had to figure it out themselves.

Even if your professor teaches you all the mechanics of something doesn't mean you can put it into practice. The Set's scientists are all essentially college graduates, who had just been hired to build rockets. They might understand all the principles, but they don't have the experience to put it into practice.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not to mention, H-T reaction was still a novelty for even Autonomy.

Where'd you get that?

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

And where you got that about industrial cables?

When Wax and Steris are talking about shipping the bomb into Elendel Wax says that the largest thing is the generator, because the amount of electricity needed exceeds industrial cables limits, so they couldn't get the electricity from the city.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't really understand you at this point as I gave you multiple examples as how it's not just a mass in case fission reaction.

And you know for a fact that it is fission because?

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

And how many squires Bondsmiths currently have? How many candidates for squires are currently known? Zero. Even if Dalinar gets his squires, they would still be years behind him, and Stromfather is known for "you're not ready for this" and "you will know it when you're ready for it". They would not be any replacement for Dalinar.

Even if somehow over ten years they didn't get a single squire there are two bondsmiths, and I highly doubt one attack would kill both of them. So the one left an teach new ones, or they could write a book about it. Or countless other ways to preserve their knowledge.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight can easily be generated,

On Roshar yes, on Scadrial only Dalinar can - and they can't carry unlimited Stromlight. And that's the Scadrial's tactics, drain Radiants out of Stormlight.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even for modern countries you can't just replace artillery pieces like that. And how many would they need to actually make a half-decent barrier? Tens of thousands at the least. And you can't redirect the boulders as they will be pulled towards where the artillery is, and you can't hit them because you can't aim artillery that quickly.

Because modern artillery is different than it was 100 years ago? During 1914-1915 Germany produced 3500 artillery pieces, that's 10 a day. Scadrial of course cannot compete with Germans, but still they have heavy industry switch to war production and after few weeks/months they would be able to produce several a week or even 1 per day later.
And there is rate of fire. Early AA guns were able to shot tens rounds per minute and late WW1 more than 100rpm. So tens of thousands are not needed.
It's random explosion that the boulder might met, at it would gave it horisontal speed, if strong enough it might just missed the gun it was falling toward.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Because if Kalak was so desperate that he would tell people to be on the lookout for people from the same country that Ishar is currently in, he would have spoken to him during the previous thousand years.

My point is, if Kalak already have figured it out how to get out of Roshar, after hearing about Tukari in CR, which are now under Ishar rule, and cannot get into perpendicularity because of the war, he might jus figure it out (as they now each other for thousands of years) that Ishar has reclaimed his Honorblade, like Nale before, and if he knew how, then he would very much go to see Ishar already. And Tukari presence is weird in CR.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Back to sleep in ten minuets? That's not realistic for brand new recruits during their first time at war. And they would make a lot of mistakes like only having two guards with no night patrol, especially at first, because they've never been to war before.

And why would they abandon it on the spot when they can still complete the mission without risk?

Maybe I overestimated but they would be sleeping soon. They are not stupied not to have night patrols as police already have them... Why do you assume they're idiots? It's stupid. They have generals that successfully deploy weapon against Malwish ships - even without being at war. Night patrols and guards are not just for protecting yourself from enemy, but to prevent desertion, spies, unruliness, theft, and it's a training for guards to increase their observation skill, readiness and discipline. That's like the very basic of camp life. There definitely were books about basic of warfare, and Elend's conquests left by Sazed that describes how to guard your camp...

Because the alarm was sounded and the risk is very high? They might get into the fight, get caught, or killed and more importantly guards now knows that they were intrested in the storage, so they will search it for anything unusual, and they would find that food started to spoil fast, or hunger is getting stronger around it. They would quickly find that fabrial and from now on they would know what your plan is and work against it. 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It wouldn't be huge, just a sphere around their head.

And how would they not notice a stream of light going before their very eyes and forming image at first? Really, how would they not notice that? When Shallan ever made illusion just right at someone's face that - read again OB ch 61. The Stromlight is very visible before it makes an illusion. That won't work.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Taln's mind was restored because a radiant ideal was said, just like how Nale's mind was restored at the end of Edgedanncer. And Illumination doesn't use the CR, so the realms being close doesn't matter for it.

I'm gonna repeat what I said in that message - "what was noticed by Jasnah, she might even soulcast to add matter/mass to thier illusions". To add to it, Shallan also made illusions of drawings that she'd lost. She was able to quickly made that army out of drawing she'd lost and likely add mass to it, because the 3 realms were close to each other (OB ch 120).

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Not necessarily. As long as it causes some form of distress it pushes Dalinar closer to breaking. Even the memory of trauma can be enough at times. And considering that Dalinar was practically comatose for the next week I'd say that it was effective. Compare the time at Vedenar to Theylan city. At Vedenar Dalinar feels the Thrill, Taravangian approaches him with a moral dilemma, and Dalinar is excommunicated. At Theylan City the secrets of the Recreance, the visions with Odium, and the Highking come out. Each time it is three problems, and Taravangian is behind them.

Additionally Taravangian is working with Odium, if Nahel spren could be imprisoned in gems that easily they wouldn't have needed to make ani-stormlight. And Raboniel has studied modern fabrials, so there is no way she wouldn't know about it.

Nothing in the books categorically disproves it, and as you pointed out in WoB, Brandon also doesn't. So it is as likely it's a sapient spren, as it's a Shardplate spren. 
Fair point about working with Odium. 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even if your professor teaches you all the mechanics of something doesn't mean you can put it into practice. The Set's scientists are all essentially college graduates, who had just been hired to build rockets. They might understand all the principles, but they don't have the experience to put it into practice.

That was my point, Autonomy did not fixed all problems they faced, they had to find solution to it on their own.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Where'd you get that?

Maybe because it was first time for her with Harmonium during that 6 years? That never happened before as no Shard before was combined with other Shard. 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

When Wax and Steris are talking about shipping the bomb into Elendel Wax says that the largest thing is the generator, because the amount of electricity needed exceeds industrial cables limits, so they couldn't get the electricity from the city.

Ok, but Elendel does not have cabel line on the streets that could carry that power, but Wax used one to link generator with his machine. However Bilming was remade for Autonomy, and Set would certainly put proper cables that would link the rockets with city's power plant, giving them the power they would need.
Or not even, as that power was only nessesery just before the reaction, So the onboard generator on rocket or however they do it, would work, as they HAD working rockets for smaller yields, so somehow they resolved that problem.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And you know for a fact that it is fission because?

Form the description of it, what result it have and what best fits it in our world. It splits Harmonium into Atium and Lerasium, convertes mass into energy according to E=mc^2, and is the most powerful and most efficient explosion ever made - which fits very well to fission (and thermonuclear bombs as that is both fission and fusion). And the atmosphere ignition talk from Harmony was a clear reference to Trinity test, and real worries about igniting atmosphere with first fission bomb test. That just fits the best all characteristics of the reaction that took place. 
It could be also pure conversion of mass into the energy, like matter - anti-mater reaction, but that is even less comparable to chemical reaction of water and cesium. 

Until Brandon says what it was, we might as well try to compare it with the most fitting reaction we can make. Not as a fact, but as a best fitting model.

16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even if somehow over ten years they didn't get a single squire there are two bondsmiths, and I highly doubt one attack would kill both of them. So the one left an teach new ones, or they could write a book about it. Or countless other ways to preserve their knowledge.

Yes, but Sibling and Stormfather are different, they work differently. And quoting you from this post:

16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even if your professor teaches you all the mechanics of something doesn't mean you can put it into practice. The Set's scientists are all essentially college graduates, who had just been hired to build rockets. They might understand all the principles, but they don't have the experience to put it into practice.

Teaching new Bondsmiths would take a long time, during which Roshar on Scadrial would be stuck without Stormlight and completely annihilated. Not to mention Navani is on Roshar with Sibling, and we don't know if she can use her powers away from them, and she is making Towerlight, not usable for Radiants.

Dalinar is the single point of failure in that invasion, without him, Roshar is doomed. His experience and abilities are irreplaceable, and without them, Roshar can't fight.

 

[Frustration he/him]

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

On Roshar yes, on Scadrial only Dalinar can - and they can't carry unlimited Stromlight. And that's the Scadrial's tactics, drain Radiants out of Stormlight.

Teaching new Bondsmiths would take a long time, during which Roshar on Scadrial would be stuck without Stormlight and completely annihilated. Not to mention Navani is on Roshar with Sibling, and we don't know if she can use her powers away from them, and she is making Towerlight, not usable for Radiants.

Dalinar is the single point of failure in that invasion, without him, Roshar is doomed. His experience and abilities are irreplaceable, and without them, Roshar can't fight.

Simple solution, go to the Nightwatcher and ask her for the ability to infuse gemstones with Stormlight.

Speaking of which the Nightwatcher solves like all of Roshar's problems. Scadrial has guns? Ask the nightwatcher for the ability to make better ones. Running low on gemstones? Ask the Nightwatcher for large perfect ones.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

It's random explosion that the boulder might met, at it would gave it horisontal speed, if strong enough it might just missed the gun it was falling toward.

It only needs to get past the point where the rounds are exploding, even if it felt the sock-wave from one of the rounds it would have plenty of time to correct.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

My point is, if Kalak already have figured it out how to get out of Roshar, after hearing about Tukari in CR, which are now under Ishar rule, and cannot get into perpendicularity because of the war, he might jus figure it out (as they now each other for thousands of years) that Ishar has reclaimed his Honorblade, like Nale before, and if he knew how, then he would very much go to see Ishar already. And Tukari presence is weird in CR.

Why would he ask people to keep an eye out for Tukari?

Just because on the off chance that Ishar decided for no known reason to Kalak to reclaim his honorblade after 4,500 years, he would use it to make a perpendicularity in order to send Tukari to kidnap spren?

Even if we assume Kalak somehow considered Ishar reclaiming his Honorblade possible, why would he suspect that Ishar would send Tukari to the CR?

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

There definitely were books about basic of warfare, and Elend's conquests left by Sazed that describes how to guard your camp.

Why would there be? To our understanding the words of founding were more religious, historical, and political. Not one to my recollection is about war.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

When Shallan ever made illusion just right at someone's face that

When she was leaving that one mansion before she got shot in the head.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

I'm gonna repeat what I said in that message - "what was noticed by Jasnah, she might even soulcast to add matter/mass to thier illusions". To add to it, Shallan also made illusions of drawings that she'd lost. She was able to quickly made that army out of drawing she'd lost and likely add mass to it, because the 3 realms were close to each other (OB ch 120).

Stormlight itself has mass, there is no need for anything extra there. And Shallan often makes illusions for things she hasn't drawn in weeks, like Veil for instance.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

That was my point, Autonomy did not fixed all problems they faced, they had to find solution to it on their own.

She provided Telsin the next steps, Telsin confirms this, she sees what they need to do. However Telsin isn't the one building the rockets so there is a delay between her knowledge and the scientists practice.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

Maybe because it was first time for her with Harmonium during that 6 years? That never happened before as no Shard before was combined with other Shard.

Shards grant their holder an intuitive understanding of magic and physics. She could easily figure out everything there is to know about harmonium by thinking about it.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

Ok, but Elendel does not have cabel line on the streets that could carry that power, but Wax used one to link generator with his machine. However Bilming was remade for Autonomy, and Set would certainly put proper cables that would link the rockets with city's power plant, giving them the power they would need.

Why would they use Bilming's power? They need the bomb in Elendel. And EWax's detonation was much smaller than what the set was trying, they needed more Harmonium, and thus more electricity in order to pull it apart.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

Form the description of it, what result it have and what best fits it in our world. It splits Harmonium into Atium and Lerasium, convertes mass into energy according to E=mc^2, and is the most powerful and most efficient explosion ever made - which fits very well to fission (and thermonuclear bombs as that is both fission and fusion). And the atmosphere ignition talk from Harmony was a clear reference to Trinity test, and real worries about igniting atmosphere with first fission bomb test. That just fits the best all characteristics of the reaction that took place.

But Harmonium is nuclearly stable, and Trellium isn't radioactive. Not to mention the fact that no one experiences radiation poisoning.

On 12/4/2022 at 7:54 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, but Sibling and Stormfather are different, they work differently. And quoting you from this post:

 

Quote

good job.

The difference here is that with Bondsmithing there is no distinction between concept and practice. Touch something, reveal Connections, grab and  move as you see fit. And while yes each spren is different, as are the specific manifestations of their powers, the basic priciples are the same. So instead of a map of Roshar Navani and Shallan would make a map of Urithiru.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Simple solution, go to the Nightwatcher and ask her for the ability to infuse gemstones with Stormlight.

Speaking of which the Nightwatcher solves like all of Roshar's problems. Scadrial has guns? Ask the nightwatcher for the ability to make better ones. Running low on gemstones? Ask the Nightwatcher for large perfect ones.

And get curses like not recognising gemstones, seeing upside down, being mute/deaf etc. I doubt Dalinar with his expiriance and randomness of Nightwatcher would allow for that. Not to mention how much of this can be made by her, and how much only by Cultivation (guns?). Cool idea anyway, not practical and unpredictable, can backfire terribly.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It only needs to get past the point where the rounds are exploding, even if it felt the sock-wave from one of the rounds it would have plenty of time to correct.

I'm not denying that many would passed and hit, some might get nudged just enough to miss the target. 

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would he ask people to keep an eye out for Tukari?

Just because on the off chance that Ishar decided for no known reason to Kalak to reclaim his honorblade after 4,500 years, he would use it to make a perpendicularity in order to send Tukari to kidnap spren?

Even if we assume Kalak somehow considered Ishar reclaiming his Honorblade possible, why would he suspect that Ishar would send Tukari to the CR?

It's not like that he would be actively observing Tukar, it's that someone might have tell him in regular conversation, he might have heard the news, heard the gossips or what sprens and people talks about, saw himself in one of his ventures outside, and then just connect the dots coming to conclusion that Ishar has a Honorblade. Tukari presence is noticeable weird in CR.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would there be? To our understanding the words of founding were more religious, historical, and political. Not one to my recollection is about war.

Words of Founding consists of all the knowledge that Sazed had in his metalminds, that most likely included war, religions withs strong war focus, and of course the fall of Final Empire and wars of Last Empire - there was quite a bit of battles there. He was tasked wtih preserving all knowledge, war is part of that knowledge. Just basic of it, and patrols and guarding a camp is very basic, that helps to train troops as well.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

When she was leaving that one mansion before she got shot in the head.

I ment, putting illusion right on someone's face that did not expected that. In that case, she was putting illusions on herself, limiting the distance the light would need to travel significantly, plus she was some distance away from witnesses.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight itself has mass, there is no need for anything extra there. And Shallan often makes illusions for things she hasn't drawn in weeks, like Veil for instance.

That was different. Read the chapter. The illusion of her father and mother and long gone drawings appeared. Different casue 3 realms were close. Light has mass, but what Jasnah saw was too much for that explenation, like Shallan put more mass to her illusions than just in normal Stormlight. 

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

She provided Telsin the next steps, Telsin confirms this, she sees what they need to do. However Telsin isn't the one building the rockets so there is a delay between her knowledge and the scientists practice.

Yes, but that still is my point. Autonomy did not resolved all of problems they were facing at all times. She provided a lot of help, but people still had to figure some stuff by themselves to get there. Tbf idk why are we discussing it? 

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Shards grant their holder an intuitive understanding of magic and physics. She could easily figure out everything there is to know about harmonium by thinking about it.

Yet Sazed did not most likely could replicate Wax experiment? Yes, she could understand principles, made estimations, but that still was something new to her is some way. From coppermind about Trellium: 

Quote

The blast is powerful enough that not even Autonomy or Harmony are aware as to how strong an explosion of it can be

 

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would they use Bilming's power? They need the bomb in Elendel. And EWax's detonation was much smaller than what the set was trying, they needed more Harmonium, and thus more electricity in order to pull it apart.

I was talking about the tests and rocket launches. They tested the bombs in caves, they tested rockets with intention they would have bombs in them. They had electricity provided in a way that would make it portable/launchable. And they were all doing it in Bilming. That's why.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

But Harmonium is nuclearly stable, and Trellium isn't radioactive. Not to mention the fact that no one experiences radiation poisoning.

Yes, all of that I previously pointed out. But we don't know it. We don't know if it's radioactive or stable, but most likely both are stable. That's why I think that's not regular fission, as not done with neutrons spliting unstable nuclei, but rather strong nulcear force acting on protons and neutrons ripping them appart and spliting the atoms. Or something different. We don't know, but the effects mostly resemblems nuclear fission and fusion. It literally leaves Atium and Lerasium as products. That's why it's best to compare it to fission as that's the closest we have.
It might be, that the same way Harmony is a fusion of Ruin and Preservation (figuratively speaking), Harmonium is a fusion of Atium and Lerasium., and fission of Harmonium splits it into Atium and Lerasium.

All of that was to point out to you, that you can't just scale up a chemical reaction and multiply by 10 to make potentially fission/fusion one, as they both work on different principles. The energy in chemical reactions comes from bonds between atoms, in fission it's from nuclei being ripped apart. Chemical reactions deals with electromagnetic force, while fission with strong nucelar force. Fission reaction is millions time more energetic than chemical reactions. They are just not comparable to each other it the way you did. And that's why I suggested to measure the power of bombs (H-W and H-T) by looking at the scale of Wayne's explosion and damage done, and goals H-T bomb was meant to achieve.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The difference here is that with Bondsmithing there is no distinction between concept and practice. Touch something, reveal Connections, grab and  move as you see fit. And while yes each spren is different, as are the specific manifestations of their powers, the basic priciples are the same. So instead of a map of Roshar Navani and Shallan would make a map of Urithiru.

My point is, Dalinar is irreplaceable, he has the most experience, knowledge, skills, intuition, training (11 years!!! and with Ishar involvement), and he's renomed leader and commander. You cannot just slap a bond on some random dude and make him new Dalinar. Even with being a squire, he would still be lacking all of that in comparison to Dalinar, and would still require weeks or months of training before being sent to Scadrial, by this time all Rosharians and Radiants would be dead.

Edited December 5, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And get's curses like not recognising gemstones, seeing upside down, being mute/deaf etc. I doubt Dalinar with his expiriance and randomness of Nightwatcher would allow for that. Not to mention how much of this can be made by her, and how only by Cultivation (guns). Cool idea anyway, not practical and unpredictable, can backfire terribly.

All the curses we've heard about have bee rather tame(numb hands, seeing the world upside down, ringing in one ear etc.) and you  can simply say "Hey, we're taking over this planet here, and making several new kingdoms, go to the nightwatcher for us and we'll make you a king in one of them." And why would the Nightwatcher not be able to grant guns?

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's not like that he would be actively observing Tukar, it's that someone might have tell him in regular conversation, he might have heard the news, heard the gossips or what sprens and people talks about, saw himself in one of his ventures outside, and then just connect the dots coming to conclusion that Ishar has a Honorblade. Tukari presence is noticeable weird in CR.

Notum doesn't seem to find anything odd about them. Roshar is a massive way stop in CR travel, large groups are common.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That was different. Read the chapter. The illusion of her father and mother and long gone drawings appeared. Different casue 3 realms were close. Light has mass, but what Jasnah saw was too much for that explenation, like Shallan put more mass to her illusions than just in normal Stormlight. 

Jasnah herself says that it could have been stormlight. And  Shallan reutinely underplays her abilities, as seen in RoW she isn't a reliable narator.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but that still is my point. Autonomy did not resolved all of problems they were facing at all times. She provided a lot of help, but people still had to figure some stuff by themselves to get there. Tbf idk why are we discussing it? 

I don't remember.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yet Sazed did not most likely could replicate Wax experiment?

Sazed is actively being limited, and Autonomy is way more experienced

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's off-world, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge.

Calamity San Antonio signing (Feb. 26, 2016)

 

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

From coppermind about Trellium: 

It's happening again.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I was talking about the tests and rocket launches. They tested the bombs in caves, they tested rockets with intention they would have bombs in them. They had electricity provided in a way that would make it portable/launchable. And they were all doing it in Bilming. That's why.

They tested the rockets, but I don't think they had bombs on them, otherwise they would have launched those rather than use the suicide ship.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

My point is, Dalinar is irreplaceable, he has the most experience, knowledge, skills, intuition, training (11 years!!! and with Ishar involvement), and he's renomed leader and commander. You cannot just slap a bond on some random dude and make him new Dalinar. Even with being a squire, he would still be lacking all of that in comparison to Dalinar, and would still require weeks or months of training before being sent to Scadrial, by this time all Rosharians and Radiants would be dead.

With the ability to generate stormlight, shardplate and an honorguard any bondsmith would be easily protected.

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

All the curses we've heard about have bee rather tame(numb hands, seeing the world upside down, ringing in one ear etc.) and you  can simply say "Hey, we're taking over this planet here, and making several new kingdoms, go to the nightwatcher for us and we'll make you a king in one of them." And why would the Nightwatcher not be able to grant guns?

All of that curses are a big deal if you're going to the war.
And then you have gun, and we're back to discussion "Roshar can't copy even more advanced guns".

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Notum doesn't seem to find anything odd about them. Roshar is a massive way stop in CR travel, large groups are common.

But some people does.

31 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I don't remember.

That could be said about most of our topics here, at some point we started them to make some point, now it's all lost.

32 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Sazed is actively being limited, and Autonomy is way more experienced

Were those forces of Autonomy that are now gone? 

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's happening again.

What? I don't remember!  

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They tested the rockets, but I don't think they had bombs on them, otherwise they would have launched those rather than use the suicide ship.

They didn't but they were made to carry bombs in them, but they falt short on range and payload mass - We were already talking about it.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

With the ability to generate stormlight, shardplate and an honorguard any bondsmith would be easily protected.

Steelrunner with spike surprising him in the bath. Or nuke. Protected doesn't mean invincible.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

All of that curses are a big deal if you're going to the war.

Roshar has hundreds of thousands of candidates. One infantryman less won't make a difference.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But some people does.

Adolin does(and only because they were following him and he has protagonist powers), none of the spren do.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Were those forces of Autonomy that are now gone? 

You assume that they were only from Autonomy, there are a lot of Cosmere forces that have an interest in keeping Harmony as impotent as possible.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What? I don't remember!

Inside joke. One guy on the last thread would quote coppermind articles a lot. Which on it's own wasn't a problem, but he refused to give the sources behind them, and treated them as a source unto themselves.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Steelrunner with spike surprising him in the bath. Or nuke. Protected doesn't mean invincible.

In order to sneak past all the defenses needed without being noticed they would need a steelmind the size of a person stuffed to the brim with speed. And if he stays in the CR then Scadrial can't do anything about it and he can still recharge stormlight.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Roshar has hundreds of thousands of candidates. One infantryman less won't make a difference.

What if the curse would be that only he, or nobody, can use what he got?

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Adolin does(and only because they were following him and he has protagonist powers), none of the spren do.

Pepole living in CR and more accustom to different nationalities presence there also might find Tukari weird, and then it's just gossip.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You assume that they were only from Autonomy, there are a lot of Cosmere forces that have an interest in keeping Harmony as impotent as possible.

I did not assume, I just asked.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Inside joke. One guy on the last thread would quote coppermind articles a lot. Which on it's own wasn't a problem, but he refused to give the sources behind them, and treated them as a source unto themselves.

Oh, don't worry, I'll be different. I will refuse to give sources cause I won't be able to find them

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

In order to sneak past all the defenses needed without being noticed they would need a steelmind the size of a person stuffed to the brim with speed. And if he stays in the CR then Scadrial can't do anything about it and he can still recharge stormlight.

OR he needs a distraction, a diversion, a surprise attack. And then he sneaks into Dalinar's bathroom. 
Yeah, CR is a problem, but Dalinar isn't a coward and won't hide when his man are dieing. Staying in CR would be agaist the Code.
But what if, than Scadrial can focus their metalborns in one place, wait for perpendicularity to form, and then make surprising attack on unprotected CR and Dalinar in there. Or they can try sneaking into Harmony's perpendicularity. Or kandra spy with the spike waiting for Dalinar to open perpendicularity from CS.

 

These are the shortest responses that we've made here so far. Weird.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

What if the curse would be that only he, or nobody, can use what he got?

Curses are personal. Someone doesn't go and get a bag full of gems only to find that an earthquake hit.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Staying in CR would be agaist the Code.

No it wouldn't. There is nothing in the code about leading from behind the lines, Dalinar does just that in RoW.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

But what if, than Scadrial can focus their metalborns in one place, wait for perpendicularity to form, and then make surprising attack on unprotected CR and Dalinar in there.

That would probably take millions of metalborn.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Or they can try sneaking into Harmony's perpendicularity.

The one that Roshar would have long since taken, and soulcasted a giant block on top of to keep it from being used?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or kandra spy with the spike waiting for Dalinar to open perpendicularity from CS.

He could see their soul, and tell that they were a Kandra because of that.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

These are the shortest responses that we've made here so far. Weird.

I was just thinking that yesterday.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Curses are personal. Someone doesn't go and get a bag full of gems only to find that an earthquake hit.

Yes, he can get personally tied to the gun as he's the only one that gun will allow to use. 

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No it wouldn't. There is nothing in the code about leading from behind the lines, Dalinar does just that in RoW.

Leading behind the lines is different than staying in a bunker of some sorts. Dalinar still is in the battlefields, just not fighting but as a support.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That would probably take millions of metalborn.

As it took few dozens and a few years in TLM, few hundreds/thousands might manifest it in several weeks/months. That's enough.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The one that Roshar would have long since taken, and soulcasted a giant block on top of to keep it from being used?

 Why would they crippled their logistic and supply chains by doing that? Even if they have a Bondsmith that can make a perpendicularity, having a second way in is much more better.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He could see their soul, and tell that they were a Kandra because of that.

And what if that kandra would wear a metal armor? It would be hard to see it's soul and differentiate him from Roshar troops under all that metal. No spikes visible in CR.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I was just thinking that yesterday.

So short and fast. Feels good.

Edited December 6, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

Yes, he can get personally tied to the gun as he's the only one that gun will allow to use.

Why ask for a single gun and not the knowledge on how to make them?

Though if you could get a nightblood version of a gun...

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Leading behind the lines is different than staying in a bunker of some sorts. Dalinar still is in the battlefields, just not fighting but as a support.

And providing his forces with stormlight isn't support?

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

As it took few dozens and a few years in TLM, few hundreds/thousands might manifest it in several weeks/months. That's enough.

The Set was bringing in pure investiture already, that wasn't because of the community.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why would they crippled their logistic and supply chains by doing that?

Because as much as it hurts them it hurts Scadrial a thousand times more.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Even if they have a Bondsmith that can make a perpendicularity, having a second way in is much more better.

Yeah, so move an oathgate over to Scadrial

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And what if that kandra would wear a metal armor? It would be hard to see it's soul and differentiate him from Roshar troops under all that metal. No spikes visible in CR.

You can tell just by the soul, like how you can tell apart humans, singers, regals and fused.

You can even tell if someone is high or not,

Spoiler

Questioner

Does firemoss use have an effect on Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

You could tell, if you were really good... This is going to be, as we move forward, a talent in the cosmere, to kind of be able to look and basically read souls from Shadesmar and tell things about them. It would not be-- what was Robert Jordan's phrase-- "intuitively obvious to the casual observer" that this is a person that has suffered the effects of firemoss from the other side. However, like a lot of things in the cosmere, the more skilled you are at your particular version of arcanum, the more likely you are able to do things like this, and you could tell.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why ask for a single gun and not the knowledge on how to make them?

Though if you could get a nightblood version of a gun...

Which Roshar has no ability to make? 

I doubt you could get Nightblood-gun from Nightwatcher. How would that gun even work? It would consume bullets you're trying to fire. And Nightblood-bullet would consume the gun. Unless made of aluminium, but than good luck finding, recovering and reloading the gun, you have to put it back in new cartridge case with gunpowder in it, which would be consumed by the bullet. But that's a fun idea. Scary but fun. Like shooting mini black holes.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And providing his forces with stormlight isn't support?

It is, but Dalinar is doing it on the battlefield, not in Urithiru far away from it.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Set was bringing in pure investiture already, that wasn't because of the community.

TLM ch 59, both pure investiture and invested individuals are important in creating perpendicularity. That one was a surprise to the Set, as they did not expect it to be there and had to cover it from the community.

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Because as much as it hurts them it hurts Scadrial a thousand times more.

Scadrial doesn't use it, don't rely on CR at all, so it doesn't hurt Scadrial. It hurts Roshar as they can have 2 ways into CR, and move Dalinar so him and perpendicularity can both supply different fronts of the war.

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yeah, so move an oathgate over to Scadrial

We've already talk about it, I'm not jumping back into that hole again.

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You can tell just by the soul, like how you can tell apart humans, singers, regals and fused.

Yes you can, but armor is made out of metal, metal is glowing in Scadrial's CR, blinding anyone looking at it - put a person in a metal armor and their soul can't be looked at in CR.

 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

TLM ch 59, both pure investiture and invested individuals are important in creating perpendicularity. That one was a surprise to the Set, as they did not expect it to be there and had to cover it from the community.

Just a quick note, the perpendicularity forming was due to Autonomy, which can open perpendicularities when they should not be able to (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15948), though some preconditions are apparently necessary.
So, without influence of Autonomy that perpendicularity would not form.

Hence that is something Scadrial could not make use of.
 

Quote

Scadrial doesn't use it, don't rely on CR at all, so it doesn't hurt Scadrial. It hurts Roshar as they can have 2 ways into CR, and move Dalinar so him and perpendicularity can both supply different fronts of the war.

It hurts Scadrial in the sense that without Harmony's perpendicularity they have no way to access CR, and so cannot attack or harass Rosharan supply lines, or pursue units which retreat there, or strike strategic targets stashed there (i.e. Dalinar).

Edited December 6, 2022 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which Roshar has no ability to make?

With proper knowledge on how to make them what stops Roshar from making guns?

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I doubt you could get Nightblood-gun from Nightwatcher. How would that gun even work? It would consume bullets you're trying to fire. And Nightblood-bullet would consume the gun. Unless made of aluminium, but than good luck finding, recovering and reloading the gun, you have to put it back in new cartridge case with gunpowder in it, which would be consumed by the bullet. But that's a fun idea. Scary but fun. Like shooting mini black holes.

I was thinking something more along the lines of Nahz's shadeguns

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It is, but Dalinar is doing it on the battlefield, not in Urithiru far away from it.

And he has some problem not personally attending battles despite doing it multiple times in WoK and WoR?

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes you can, but armor is made out of metal, metal is glowing in Scadrial's CR, blinding anyone looking at it - put a person in a metal armor and their soul can't be looked at in CR.

You would have to practically put them inside a suit of armor, and somehow find a way to stand directly where the perpendicularity would open despite the fact that they have no way to see the CR.

 

And I was just thinking Roshar has multiple people who can see the future, so they can adapt to Scadrian strategies before they even have to face them, or to prepare ambushes or counter attacks.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Just a quick note, the perpendicularity forming was due to Autonomy, which can open perpendicularities when they should not be able to (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15948), though some preconditions are apparently necessary.
So, without influence of Autonomy that perpendicularity would not form.

Yes, Autonomy was involved in this one for sure. However I failed to see how this WoB proves that ONLY Autonomy/Shard can do it. Autonomy is heavily invested on Taldain, making her bound to it and unable to leave and manifest perpendicularity on different planets. Somehow, she is doing it, when she shouldn't. If the same preconditions were met without Shard influence, then perpendicularity might form, as we don't now what are those conditions. And we know making perpendicularities is not something only for shards, and anyone can do it.

Spoiler

Questioner

In our universe, mass and energy curve space. I was wondering if Investiture does the same or something similar

Brandon Sanderson

It does something similar. It draws the three Realms together. So it's got like-- Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms. Right? Of kind of--

Questioner

And that's how a perpendicularity works?

Brandon Sanderson

That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm. But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way. But there are ways to do it that way too.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

TheFulgid

Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. 

TheFulgid

...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

No. 

TheFulgid

Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible. 

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

It hurts Scadrial in the sense that without Harmony's perpendicularity they have no way to access CR, and so cannot attack or harass Rosharan supply lines, or pursue units which retreat there, or strike strategic targets stashed there (i.e. Dalinar).

A little yes, but Roshar has half its logistic roads cut off. I would say still that Roshar is hurt more than Scadrial, as for Scadrial they would still have to sneak past Rosharians or take it by force.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

With proper knowledge on how to make them what stops Roshar from making guns?

We've already talked about it. Making guns requires more than Roshar has. Soulcasting won't make it.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I was thinking something more along the lines of Nahz's shadeguns

But that's no Nightblood. And how that works still?

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And he has some problem not personally attending battles despite doing it multiple times in WoK and WoR?

No, he don't yet he still like being present on/near a battlefield, even if periodically, like in WoK, WoR, WoR. His presence with soldiers boost their morale, makes them proud and more disciplined - he would still wander among regular soldiers and camp workers just to help with his visit. That's the man he is.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You would have to practically put them inside a suit of armor, and somehow find a way to stand directly where the perpendicularity would open despite the fact that they have no way to see the CR.

Which is a regular piece of armor of an late medieval period? Chainmail, partially plated armor, full plate armor etc - that's a norm. They just need to be close to it to rushed toward it when he opens it. With him being a spy for longer, he could get assigned as an escort for a cargo, or guard in close proximity to it.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And I was just thinking Roshar has multiple people who can see the future, so they can adapt to Scadrian strategies before they even have to face them, or to prepare ambushes or counter attacks.

And those are, except enlightenment Thruthseekers? If you are counting Death Rattles I would stop you right here. Renarin can't see-see the future, he won't be able to see war strategy of Scadrial, or battlefield tactics and deployment. Ane electrum and atium users will interfere with Renarin's visions. And it's not like he can control what he sees.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We've already talked about it. Making guns requires more than Roshar has. Soulcasting won't make it.

Why not? They can assemble each part from Wax and soulcast them into the right material before assembly. Or even forge it directly. What do they lack?

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But that's no Nightblood. And how that works still?

What?

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, he don't yet he still like being present on/near a battlefield, even if periodically, like in WoK, WoR, WoR. His presence with soldiers boost their morale, makes them proud and more disciplined - he would still wander among regular soldiers and camp workers just to help with his visit. That's the man he is.

But during the battle itself he doesn't needlessly risk himself. And in the CR he can watch the battle take place.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They just need to be close to it to rushed toward it when he opens it. With him being a spy for longer, he could get assigned as an escort for a cargo, or guard in close proximity to it.

They would not be assigned as an escort. They could maybe slip on during a battle, but they wouldn't be in armor all the time. Sooner or later they will be found, and a Bondsmith will take control of them.

And why would they have guards for the perpendicularity at all, the moment any non-radiant approaches he can shut it.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And those are, except enlightenment Thruthseekers? If you are counting Death Rattles I would stop you right here. Renarin can't see-see the future, he won't be able to see war strategy of Scadrial, or battlefield tactics and deployment. Ane electrum and atium users will interfere with Renarin's visions. And it's not like he can control what he sees.

He can't control it, but he does see useful futures. And Atium and electrum users would only cloud his vision while using their powers and only for themselves.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Autonomy was involved in this one for sure. However I failed to see how this WoB proves that ONLY Autonomy/Shard can do it. Autonomy is heavily invested on Taldain, making her bound to it and unable to leave and manifest perpendicularity on different planets. Somehow, she is doing it, when she shouldn't. If the same preconditions were met without Shard influence, then perpendicularity might form, as we don't now what are those conditions. And we know making perpendicularities is not something only for shards, and anyone can do it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In our universe, mass and energy curve space. I was wondering if Investiture does the same or something similar

Brandon Sanderson

It does something similar. It draws the three Realms together. So it's got like-- Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms. Right? Of kind of--

Questioner

And that's how a perpendicularity works?

Brandon Sanderson

That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm. But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way. But there are ways to do it that way too.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

TheFulgid

Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. 

TheFulgid

...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

No. 

TheFulgid

Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible. 

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Well, forming perpendicularity the "hard way" requires a lot of power concentrated in a small place, and even Bands of mourning are not even approaching the necessary quantities.
Gathering invested people together is not going to be enough, not by a long shot (otherwise large gathering of Radiants would be opening perpendicularities all the time, they are far more invested then Mistings), even Set (who had help from Autonomy) was gathering a lot of raw Investiture into artificial Shardpool.

And finally, Scadrial lacks the realmatic knowledge to know to even try for this. At best they could try to replicate what Set was doing, but that required help from Autonomy, so they would not succeed.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

What?

How is Nazh's gun working? Out of topic.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

But during the battle itself he doesn't needlessly risk himself. And in the CR he can watch the battle take place.

Yes, during battle he's on the back, he can be in CR. But my point is he's not a guy that would spend the entire war in CR, he wants to be with soldiers, with officers, with camp workers, he wants to be with them, inspect camps and armies, interact with people, boost morale with his presence. And that's when he's vulnerable

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They would not be assigned as an escort. They could maybe slip on during a battle, but they wouldn't be in armor all the time. Sooner or later they will be found, and a Bondsmith will take control of them.

And why would they have guards for the perpendicularity at all, the moment any non-radiant approaches he can shut it.

Not as his escort, but supply escort. And kandra doesn't need to sleep and take off his armor. How would Bondsmith take control over kandra?
Why would they guard place where Dalinar is? Supplies has to be delivered from CR, gems to Dalinar, that requires workers not Radiants. And kandra-spy might get reassign to CR.
Kandra can also wear clothes with aluminum or metal foil sewn into it.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He can't control it, but he does see useful futures. And Atium and electrum users would only cloud his vision while using their powers and only for themselves.

Electrum and atium mistings would cloud also people around them, just a little bit, as their interaction with others might get change or influence just wxtreamly slightly by using those metals - butterfly effect. 
And Renarin must also interpret his visions, they are useful, but not without downsides.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Gathering invested people together is not going to be enough, not by a long shot (otherwise large gathering of Radiants would be opening perpendicularities all the time, they are far more invested then Mistings), even Set (who had help from Autonomy) was gathering a lot of raw Investiture into artificial Shardpool.

And finally, Scadrial lacks the realmatic knowledge to know to even try for this. At best they could try to replicate what Set was doing, but that required help from Autonomy, so they would not succeed.

I did say that they might try to imitate what Set was doing, and gather metalborns and Investiture in one place. And that was just one of few propositions on how to get into CR. Placing too much Harmonium in one place can make perpendicularity just by itself. So Harmonium and metalborns might create perpendicularity. It's speculations at this point of how much Automomy was necessary there, did she just provide raw investiture or there was something more that she needed to do, I do agree that there might be something more to it, it's most likely, we don't know for sure yet.
But Scadrial might try to replicate that, and they know that Harmonium itself might colapse into perpendicularity. Allik was concerned that Wax might store too much Harmonium in one place, despite Wax thinking that he doen't have that much Harmonium, so we don't know how much Harmonium is needed for it, and it's hard to predict.
Moreover Scadrial has most likely 2 Harmony's perpendicularities, one is safely guarded far in the south (by Malwish?), and second one might be in southern Roughs (newspaper article).

This idea isn't my main point or important one at all. I know that it has limitations and might not work. I don't give it that much attention, as there are better alternatives, but Scadrial still might try doing that and at this point we don't know what would happen.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

How is Nazh's gun working? Out of topic.

It charges and then can shoot shades, or at least something close to them. The gun itself seems to be the source of investiture as Nikki can leech it.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, during battle he's on the back, he can be in CR. But my point is he's not a guy that would spend the entire war in CR, he wants to be with soldiers, with officers, with camp workers, he wants to be with them, inspect camps and armies, interact with people, boost morale with his presence. And that's when he's vulnerable

Yeah, and he's not going to have a guard at all times? Not to mention the fact that he has dealt with assassins before, he knows how to spot someone who wants him dead.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Not as his escort, but supply escort.

The supply escorts will all come from Roshar directly, they wouldn't rotate out from the main force.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And kandra doesn't need to sleep and take off his armor.

1. How do you know they don't need sleep?
2. Someone who never takes their armor off will raise suspicion

This is all without mentioning the fact that Kandra don't know any rosharan languages, and they won't have the ability to study their target, so they would be found almost immediately.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

How would Bondsmith take control over kandra?

Like this

Spoiler

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Kandra can also wear clothes with aluminum or metal foil sewn into it.

That would make so much noise,

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Electrum and atium mistings would cloud also people around them, just a little bit, as their interaction with others might get change or influence just wxtreamly slightly by using those metals - butterfly effect.

That's not what's shown in battle. Kelsier burning atium doesn't protect Vin's future from being seen. It's just them, and only while burning.

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yeah, and he's not going to have a guard at all times? Not to mention the fact that he has dealt with assassins before, he knows how to spot someone who wants him dead.

He have guards, he had attempts on his life, but that doesn't mean that Scadrial won't try it. Only one successful attempt is needed to win the war.

31 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The supply escorts will all come from Roshar directly, they wouldn't rotate out from the main force.

And the supply between main camp and frontlines? Frontlines and guard posts? There is whole bunch of places needed to be supply and it all goes through Dalinar and only/mostly him. And Kandra eats people, so it won't be a problem for them to take on a character.

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

1. How do you know they don't need sleep?
2. Someone who never takes their armor off will raise suspicion

This is all without mentioning the fact that Kandra don't know any rosharan languages, and they won't have the ability to study their target, so they would be found almost immediately.

1. I don't know to be fair, but there are at least 2 bleassings that helps with that - Blessing of Presence and Blessing of Awareness. So they can manage it. 
2. They follow the Code, and are prepare to battle anytime.
MaLaan ends on Roshar, so she will learn their language and learn others.
And wouldn't translation medalions be of use here? With such strong Rosharian presence the groud might get connected to Roshar, allowing them to use medalions. What do you think about it?

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Like this

So it's "possible" as it's connection manipulation (which applies to anything the regular way), the same way allomancers can do it, which was forgotten utill Vin discovered it by connecting dots. Just because something is possible doesn't mean they will know about it and attempted doing that.

44 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That would make so much noise,

Maybe not foil but thin metal plates, properly made and silenced with material would be enought to look like sleeping or living in a camp.

And there would be tens of thousands of people in a camp, with whole bunch of materials, building (visible in CR not like in Roshar), metal, armor etc - spotting a Kandra in all of this will be extremely hard even if he wouldn't be that careful.

48 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not what's shown in battle. Kelsier burning atium doesn't protect Vin's future from being seen. It's just them, and only while burning.

But Renarin's visions works different than Kelsier fighting. And I'm talking about a very little effect. It's not hard to imagine electrum misting seeing himself being pushed on the ground, and acting before it happens by turning around, catching someone else who triped and felt and making a long lasting frendship with him. That will have an effect on Renarin's abilities. We saw that in RoW, things and people close to Renarin, are hard to be seen by Odium because Renarin sees the future and acts, changins it, which comes in conflict with every little detail in a long run. Just avoiding hole in the ground that would make misting triped changes the future. Butterfly effect.