Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/27/2022 at 4:02 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes they can. Hoid has already done it.

Yes they can, see Hoid. Mraize says that it is a simple Connection issue, so any Bondsmith could make it work.

With Cohesion they can make perfect gems.

The only technology more advanced that Scadrial has is firearms.

Rosharan sanitation is better, their medicine is better, their transportation is better, they have FTL communication. When it comes to infrastructure Roshar is far ahead of Scadrial even when AoL takes place after SA 5.

They don't have a registry of metalborn so they would have to rely exclusively on volunteers to get those powers, further reducing the pool of candidates. And training for assassination takes years.

Shardplate will absorb the impact.

N. Scadrian guns can't even hit airships, much less Windrunners who can exit the atmosphere.

 

They have maybe 12 or so grenades in the north, and about as many leechers without the Malwish the number used would be so small as to be inconsequential. And to top it off a Radiant in plate can't be leeched.

 

And to counter that what happens when Radiants have fabrials that will suck the blood out of anyone that isn't wearing shardplate? WoR 993. Radiants and blood makers can heal but no one else can.

And how do they sneak in when a massive alerter fabrial tells the Rosharans when anyone not from their army enters their camp? WoK 432-433.

And there is a massive army of spren able to search out anyone at anytime.

As of right now they have fabrials that can read emotions, in ten years I fully expect them to be able to regulate emotions as well

Why on earth would they enter through Harmony's perpendicularity? They can just make a portal straight from Urithiru to the front lines.

1. The cold wasn't deadly, Kaladin remarks in RoW that it didn't deserve to be called a plague.

2. Rosharans have heightened immune system

  Reveal hidden contents

Luke Beartline

Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here.

Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that.

It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here.

This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal.

Adam

Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore.

Brandon Sanderson

No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14746

 

1. Why would they walk through the CR when they have portals?

2. Why can't they steal supplies?

Spanreeds are infinitely faster than radio, they can mechanically replicate steel pushing and ironpulling on not just metal, but liquids, stone, air, plants and dozens of other things as well. Roshar isn't behind, it's ahead.

Using Raysium,(which the coalition does have, both Navani's dagger, and Shallan's) they can make their ships much faster, in conjunction with Navani's windmill idea, and a replication of Kaladin's glove, and the fact that fourth bridge is essentially a barge with three layers not a one/two man fighter they can easily make 12-15 fighter jet style aircraft in ten years. All with much higher speed and maneuverability than Scadrian versions.

The metal is only a key, the power comes from Preservation the same way the surges come from the spren. Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation, so the Stormfather's Bondsmith can use their powers anywhere an allomancer can.

I right now am ready to swear the first 4(and possibly 5 depending on which oath I take for my third) Skybreaker ideals. And I'm not that unusual. I could probably also do several in Truthwatcher, but without knowing exactly what those are I won't make any promises.

And spren can find the people who are ready for their ideals, like how Syl found Kaladin, and people will seek out the orders, just as the orders will seek out new members.

Why connect them to Scadrial when you can just remove the one to Roshar?

And when did Dalinar ever have to touch someone mid conversation to continue speaking?

Ishar mastered Bondsmithing in his mortal lifetime. Ten years is easily enough.

You forget this is Roshar, Crem will settle to the bottom and become stone. And between shardplate, stormlight and Windrunners ability to alter pressure they will be fine. And why would they spend weeks down their, an hour at most.

Syl, Rua, Phrendorana, Notum, Seekir, and dozens of other honorspren all have different opinions and views on humans. They have similarities, but they are far from the same.

1.So if they are there with weapons then they are threats, if someone else is threatening them for a tactical advantage they will lose popular support of their own people.

2. The CR isn't that shrunk except in the vertical. And Animal souls are small and dim compared to human ones. They would never work as a distraction.

Roshar is old enough, he literally said 'yours might have some buried deep," and Roshar is thousands of years older than Scadrial. There is so much stormlight that using it everywhere isn't a problem.

It had notes on range, but not the complicated ballistics needed to make it work. That was all destroyed.

Grenades have to be charged by a misting pretty regularly.

And if Scadrial gets all these precautions against spies Roshar definitely knows about seekers, and even if not they are used to dealing with Secretspren who have basically the same power.

Scadrial doesn't have a way to remove moisture from the air, otherwise Steris would have added it to the lab. And I don't think the reaction would work in a vacuum, there would be no blast wave as it can't heat the air. This might just make a bunch of light without an explosion.

As stated above spren are different. You cannot treat them as all the same. And the lightspren have no problem bonding, they just didn't want to bond humans because of their betrayal, but now that that's known to not be the case they will be willing to bond humans.

The war with fused ended ten years ago.

The ignition would be instant, as soon as the device combined them it would immediately go off, and they could use portal delivery for more high profile targets.

Let's also not forget that handheld grenades could be made, as even chip sized gems would be more powerful than the scadrian equivelent.

Navani made it in a few days just by taking the original plate and making alterations according to math until she got it. It is a purely mathematical equation, any scholar on Roshar could do it.

And there is plenty of Stormlight they can make large amounts easily.

Only the Alethi, the Azish can, and that's never caused the trouble before, they are prepared to work around this, and it's not even slowing them down by any appreciable margin.

They have portals, why would they go through the CR at all?

Koloss aren't much of a theat, the small ones are weaker than plate, and the big ones are about dead, both of them can be take out easily with a shardblade.

 

New plan, Bondsmith connects Radiant to preservation and they start using the mists as fuel, hypercharging their surges.

 Turns out no they can't. Brandon Sanderson confirmed only hoid can get off world with a spren.

 

 

 

[Frustration he/him]

@bmcclure7 it is against the rules to post multiple times without someone else posting.

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

@bmcclure7 it is against the rules to post multiple times without someone else posting.

Fixed

[Proletariat]

I suspect this thread might be simpler if you detailed the scenario a bit further, because arguing between a Scadrial published in-text and what is effectively a fan version of Roshar that's not published anywhere for us all to look at the same thing is a bit impossible. We don't know if Roshar technically even exists by the time of the Mistborn books. All we actually have to confirm is a brief scene of red haired refugees, a Ghostblood saying they can't go there anymore, and some unpublished content of what seems like a Skybreaker thousands of years in the future. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Proletariat

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

He have guards, he had attempts on his life, but that doesn't mean that Scadrial won't try it. Only one successful attempt is needed to win the war.

And the supply between main camp and frontlines? Frontlines and guard posts? There is whole bunch of places needed to be supply and it all goes through Dalinar and only/mostly him

Maybe not foil but thin metal plates, properly made and silenced with material would be enought to look like sleeping or living in a camp.

And there would be tens of thousands of people in a camp, with whole bunch of materials, building (visible in CR not like in Roshar), metal, armor etc - spotting a Kandra in all of this will be extremely hard even if he wouldn't be that careful.

Viewing from CR will make any sneaking in impossible, and Venli was able to keep track of things in urithiru which is entirely blinding light in the CR. So the only opportunity they have is during battles, so the one they get will be random, meaning they don't know how to impersonate them.

and Alerter fabrials will prevent them from entering the camp after battle without being discovered.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

1. I don't know to be fair, but there are at least 2 bleassings that helps with that - Blessing of Presence and Blessing of Awareness. So they can manage it.

Awareness is just senses, and Presence mental fortitude. Presense might make them resistant to sleep deprivation, but I doubt it would make them entirely immune.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

2. They follow the Code, and are prepare to battle anytime.

With a weapon, Dalinar didn't wear sharplate to the feasts.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

MaLaan ends on Roshar, so she will learn their language and learn others.

Given the description of the CR I doubt that is Roshar.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

And wouldn't translation medalions be of use here? With such strong Rosharian presence the groud might get connected to Roshar, allowing them to use medalions. What do you think about it?

I doubt it, it would take longer than 50 years

Spoiler

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

If Nightblood were in the cognitive realm and was used to stab a bead that was the cognitive representation of a castle, would the castle be destroyed in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you could get Nightblood into the Cognitive Realm, then yes. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

What would happen to people who were in the castle at the time? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They wouldn't be affected (other than possibly plummeting to their death).

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

How about a carpet that had been in the castle for 50 years? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, 50 years most likely wouldn't be enough time. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

Is this like the "Ship of Theseus?" 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

So it's "possible" as it's connection manipulation (which applies to anything the regular way), the same way allomancers can do it, which was forgotten utill Vin discovered it by connecting dots.

Vin needed duralumin, so it wasn't like anyone could do it.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just because something is possible doesn't mean they will know about it and attempted doing that.

fair

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

But Renarin's visions works different than Kelsier fighting. And I'm talking about a very little effect. It's not hard to imagine electrum misting seeing himself being pushed on the ground, and acting before it happens by turning around, catching someone else who triped and felt and making a long lasting frendship with him. That will have an effect on Renarin's abilities. We saw that in RoW, things and people close to Renarin, are hard to be seen by Odium because Renarin sees the future and acts, changins it, which comes in conflict with every little detail in a long run. Just avoiding hole in the ground that would make misting triped changes the future. Butterfly effect.

Atium makes you future visible the moment you stop burning, and you never cloud the future of someone else.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Viewing from CR will make any sneaking in impossible, and Venli was able to keep track of things in urithiru which is entirely blinding light in the CR. So the only opportunity they have is during battles, so the one they get will be random, meaning they don't know how to impersonate them.

and Alerter fabrials will prevent them from entering the camp after battle without being discovered.

It is a big advantage. But Venli was able to see only in close proximity. Covering the entire camp of tens of thousands closely packed man and spotting one Kandra in or without an armor would be extreamly hard.
And additional question - how easy is to spot kandra by soul? Did we see that in SH? Except by spikes.
And does Alerter fabrials can be set to disregard  all Rosharsians or just those who were in range of it when activated as we saw in WoK (the only place where it was used?)?

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Awareness is just senses, and Presence mental fortitude. Presense might make them resistant to sleep deprivation, but I doubt it would make them entirely immune.

Sensitive senses can prevent falling asleep (or unconscious like Mistborns are doing with burning tin) but that would not be a great experience.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

With a weapon, Dalinar didn't wear sharplate to the feasts.

Yes, because regular soldier or worker would get invited to a feasts full of nobility.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Vin needed duralumin, so it wasn't like anyone could do it.

I meant stories about allomancers controlling/hurting kandra, before TenSoon told Vin, were absent. I think so, I might be wrong.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Atium makes you future visible the moment you stop burning, and you never cloud the future of someone else.

Never? And what about someone that is carried by misting burning atium?  But you are right, they would have to burn metals constantly or in the moment Renarin is having visions - not a great chances. I did not think about it.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Given the description of the CR I doubt that is Roshar.

Right, I focused too much on redheaded people. But kandra is already on Roshar:

Spoiler

Questioner

Have we seen the worldhopping kandra on-screen in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I believe you have. Ahhhh, yes, she gets around. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by alder24

[therunner he/him]

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I meant stories about allomancers controlling/hurting kandra, before TenSoon told Vin, were absent. I think so, I might be wrong.

I agree, as far as I remember the stories were absent. I think TenSoon mentions the reason was that Kandra were working to eradicate that knowledge? They don't want anyone to know, and TLR might have been working towards that himself (so that no one would subvert his constructs).

And while Bondsmith abilities would definitely allow them to break into and control Kandra (or Koloss, and possibly anyone sufficiently spiked), questions is how difficult to find that out is, is it sufficient to Connect to Kandra, or is something more required?

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

And additional question - how easy is to spot kandra by soul? Did we see that in SH? Except by spikes.

I don't know, but Venli can tell that Leshwi is coming down the tower before she gets there

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

And does Alerter fabrials can be set to disregard  all Rosharsians or just those who were in range of it when activated as we saw in WoK (the only place where it was used?)?

By the description I got the impression that it was set to ignore each person specifically, but it could be people already in range.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, because regular soldier or worker would get invited to a feasts full of nobility.

The Codes of War specifically say to never be drunk and to always have a weapon. Nothing about armor.

Quote

Sorry, that's a big as it will let me make it.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

But kandra is already on Roshar:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Have we seen the worldhopping kandra on-screen in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I believe you have. Ahhhh, yes, she gets around. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

One, who cannot impersonate singers or radiants, thus limiting the number of people they can accurately mimic. And they have been on Roshar, not necessarily are there now.

 

New plan, take Nightblood into the CR, go to large important cities and start stabbing buildings, factories, important people etc, until Scadrial surrenders.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I don't know, but Venli can tell that Leshwi is coming down the tower before she gets there

I reread first RoW Venli chapter, she can tell this because Fused's souls are different from Listners's one, and she was coming from above. And your WoB you posted few days ago about recognising differences in souls mention that it's a skill to learn and master. 

Spoiler

Questioner

What do kandra look like in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. But it will be answered eventually.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

By the description I got the impression that it was set to ignore each person specifically, but it could be people already in range.

In WoK Rysn "set the fabrial on people in the caravan" (translation) and doesn't specify more. But both, people already in range, and setting each person/group specifically are highly impractical in a war camp with lots of people moving in and out of range of each fabrial every moment. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Codes of War specifically say to never be drunk and to always have a weapon. Nothing about armor.

Tbf I notice that regular armor is just rare in Brandon's books. Occasionally we got a breastplate, like one Kaladin was supposed to get in WoR and never used it (or mention it), or the one officer wore during battle on the Tower (WoK), that somehow did not protect him from cut through stomach (the very thing it is supposed to do). I got the impression that Rosharians walks into the battle in uniforms only.

Picking up a weapon is like 1 minute max, putting on an armor and fitting it in is very time consuming.

The code mostly applies to officers, but regular footman have to be always ready for battle. That means wearing an armor, or at least it won't be a wierd thing to wear an armor in a war camp, during active war, with battles happening "close by".

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

One, who cannot impersonate singers or radiants, thus limiting the number of people they can accurately mimic. And they have been on Roshar, not necessarily are there now.

Yes, singers are not part of that war, impersonating radiant is not necessary, but possible by bonding a spren. The only thing kandra from Roshar needs to do is to teach other Kandra about Roshar and languages.

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone out of Roshar knows the Immortal Words, and he's, for example, a kandra, can he become a Knight?

Brandon Sanderson

So, becoming a Knight Radiant is up to the spren, right? Saying the Ideals, swearing the oaths, these sorts of things, you have to convince a piece of sapient Investiture that you deserve it, and that's the main thing.

Questioner

And the kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the kandra would have to lots of fast talking, and there are a few more difficulties involved, but this is theoretically possible. For instance, taking some pieces of Investiture offworld are difficult.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

New plan, take Nightblood into the CR, go to large important cities and start stabbing buildings, factories, important people etc, until Scadrial surrenders.

Khem Khem professor Snape:

On 15.11.2022 at 7:10 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Roshar doesn't get Nightblood.

You can use it as a source of information at least.

Nightblood is Nighblood, there isn't much to do about it, but it would devour its user faster than it would make significant damage to Scadrial. Like very fast, few minutes at best. Buildings don't offer much Investiture for Nightblood. Unless you are willing to sacrifice thousends of your people to be fully consumed by ever-hungry-evil-killing-soul-consuming-piece-of-happy-metal, than yes, go ahead. 

Spoiler

How long it will take for a people next in line to stab their officers with Nightblood instead and run away?

Edit:
Or Scadrial needs to outlaw any foreign invasion, good luck using Nighblood in hands of Szeth.

Edited December 8, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I reread first RoW Venli chapter, she can tell this because Fused's souls are different from Listners's one, and she was coming from above. And your WoB you posted few days ago about recognising differences in souls mention that it's a skill to learn and master. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

What do kandra look like in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. But it will be answered eventually.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Venli can also tell what spren is bonded in a singers gemheart. And I highly doubt that Kandra have souls that look anything at all like humans

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Khem Khem professor Snape:

Would you like to restore the discussion to the original premise that both worlds are united and we ignore off world magic?

I am more than willing to agree to that, I was only bringing Nightblood in because the discussion changed the premise.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nightblood is Nighblood, there isn't much to do about it, but it would devour its user faster than it would make significant damage to Scadrial. Like very fast, few minutes at best. Buildings don't offer much Investiture for Nightblood. Unless you are willing to sacrifice thousends of your people to be fully consumed by ever-hungry-evil-killing-soul-consuming-piece-of-happy-metal, than yes, go ahead.

As long as the wielder has investiture they will be safe.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or Scadrial needs to outlaw any foreign invasion, good luck using Nighblood in hands of Szeth.

Szeth never swore to follow the law.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Venli can also tell what spren is bonded in a singers gemheart. And I highly doubt that Kandra have souls that look anything at all like humans

Each spren is different and easily recognisable. Kandra were human once, so their souls might be very close to human soul.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

As long as the wielder has investiture they will be safe.

He would consume exponentially more and more, he won't be safe. He would have to have Dalinar feeding him all time, but even that at some point might not be enough. Not to mention extreme pain it causes to use Nighblood. And you've got one city of 5 mil people to destroy, with diameter of around 15 km. That's long and painful trip.

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Szeth never swore to follow the law.

Quote

 

I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal. 

Do you think it's just to vaporise buildings, houses, factories full of innocent people, harming and killing them in process? It's just to kill non-combatant people? It's just to cause harm on civilians? It's just to causing hunger, homelessness and destruction of private properties?

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Would you like to restore the discussion to the original premise that both worlds are united and we ignore off world magic?

I am more than willing to agree to that, I was only bringing Nightblood in because the discussion changed the premise.

We changes premise to better predict what can be done and be realistic. United Roshar and Scadrial is not possible. We don't know what Malwish can do, what technology they have, we know almost nothing about them, so it's hard to place them in that conflict. We know more about Fused and Parsh, but still there is a lot of things we don't know about them, only 7/9 types of Fused were presented to us. On both worlds both factions are either in war or are hostile. Do you think that was not reasonable to do? We have hard time speculating what Roshar can do in 10 years.

The only reasonable Ghostbloods interference I talked about was to pass information about incoming attack, and maybe some more about enemy Scadrial will face - despite that the main Ghostbloods goal is to protect Scadrial, so it's unreasonable to exclude them from active protection. Yet I think their unique skills change nothing in bigger war picture.

I don't know if you noticed but I tend to avoid talking about what metalborns can do with their fancy abilities, and focus more on what regular people, tactics, war effort and logistic can achieve instead, as that's more important in war than useful but extremely limited and rare powers. The same way I treat Roshar, but with little bigger role of Radiants. 

It is reasonable to bring in Nightblood? Yes, he's part of Dalinar's coalition, in hand of Skybreaker, who would most likely be part of invasion force. So it's reasonable and logical to include him. But does it make sense for us to bring him in? It's Nightblood, nothing can counter it, it killes Vessels, chops off parts of Honorblades, collapses perpendicularieties, and consumes souls for breakfast. The only downsides to Nightblood are morality of its usage and his constant need for Investiture. So yes, he can be used the way you propose, with breaks so wielders won't get consumed. It can't be countered. It's Nightblood

What is the point of further discussion then? I could counter everything you say with H-T bomb, and you could counter with Anti-light bomb, and then we are in the middle of nowhere, achieving nothing.

 

To be fair, I feel like we're slowly reaching end of discussion. We talked about how different powers could be used in this war, how they could be countered, how they could be protected from countering them etc. Less about general tactics, strategies and logistics in this war. Still a lot of fun and weird thnigs can happen in that war. We reached no conclusion or agreement, that's fine.
I do agree that Radiants are powerful and hard to fight with, and they will be spearhead of Rosharian advance. Roshar is a formidable opponent, but only Radiants are saving them. Yet I hope that at least,  with the assumptions we've made, I have shown that Scadrial can do damage, can be very hard to conquer and control. They can do a lot and have a real chance to defend themself successfully, which would be very difficult to do. Without those assumptions I still think that any interplanetary invastion for those two is impossible logistically and militarily in current time. Maybe within next eras it will change.

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Each spren is different and easily recognisable. Kandra were human once, so their souls might be very close to human soul.

I mean, fused were singers once...

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do you think it's just to vaporise buildings, houses, factories full of innocent people, harming and killing them in process? It's just to kill non-combatant people? It's just to cause harm on civilians? It's just to causing hunger, homelessness and destruction of private properties?

Third ideal would count as more perfect.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We changes premise to better predict what can be done and be realistic. United Roshar and Scadrial is not possible. We don't know what Malwish can do, what technology they have, we know almost nothing about them, so it's hard to place them in that conflict. We know more about Fused and Parsh, but still there is a lot of things we don't know about them, only 7/9 types of Fused were presented to us. On both worlds both factions are either in war or are hostile. Do you think that was not reasonable to do? We have hard time speculating what Roshar can do in 10 years.

The only reasonable Ghostbloods interference I talked about was to pass information about incoming attack, and maybe some more about enemy Scadrial will face - despite that the main Ghostbloods goal is to protect Scadrial, so it's unreasonable to exclude them from active protection. Yet I think their unique skills change nothing in bigger war picture.

I don't know if you noticed but I tend to avoid talking about what metalborns can do with their fancy abilities, and focus more on what regular people, tactics, war effort and logistic can achieve instead, as that's more important in war than useful but extremely limited and rare powers. The same way I treat Roshar, but with little bigger role of Radiants. 

It is reasonable to bring in Nightblood? Yes, he's part of Dalinar's coalition, in hand of Skybreaker, who would most likely be part of invasion force. So it's reasonable and logical to include him. But does it make sense for us to bring him in? It's Nightblood, nothing can counter it, it killes Vessels, chops off parts of Honorblades, collapses perpendicularieties, and consumes souls for breakfast. The only downsides to Nightblood are morality of its usage and his constant need for Investiture. So yes, he can be used the way you propose, with breaks so wielders won't get consumed. It can't be countered. It's Nightblood

What is the point of further discussion then? I could counter everything you say with H-T bomb, and you could counter with Anti-light bomb, and then we are in the middle of nowhere, achieving nothing.

 

To be fair, I feel like we're slowly reaching end of discussion. We talked about how different powers could be used in this war, how they could be countered, how they could be protected from countering them etc. Less about general tactics, strategies and logistics in this war. Still a lot of fun and weird thnigs can happen in that war. We reached no conclusion or agreement, that's fine.
I do agree that Radiants are powerful and hard to fight with, and they will be spearhead of Rosharian advance. Roshar is a formidable opponent, but only Radiants are saving them. Yet I hope that at least,  with the assumptions we've made, I have shown that Scadrial can do damage, can be very hard to conquer and control. They can do a lot and have a real chance to defend themself successfully, which would be very difficult to do. Without those assumptions I still think that any interplanetary invastion for those two is impossible logistically and militarily in current time. Maybe within next eras it will change.

Personally I find the discussion fun simply for the sake of the discussion. That's part of why I don't really care what the parameters are so long as they equally balanced both sides. If you want we can end it here(unless someone else wants to join), as we've pretty much gone through most of the possibilities for the proposed conflict, or we could do current worlds united, or go to the theoretical limits of all currently known abilities.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I mean, fused were singers once...

They are CS, Kandra are not.

16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Personally I find the discussion fun simply for the sake of the discussion. That's part of why I don't really care what the parameters are so long as they equally balanced both sides. If you want we can end it here(unless someone else wants to join), as we've pretty much gone through most of the possibilities for the proposed conflict, or we could do current worlds united, or go to the theoretical limits of all currently known abilities.

I do agree, this disscusion is fun and entertaining for me too. Don't get me wrong, it's not about Nightblood or changing assumptions we've made, I just feel that we've discussed all we could, and there are just small bits that could be added. Like I'm pretty sure, that if Roshar were to invade Basin, Malwish would join - on the invaders side. The tensions after TLM were left at just too high level for them to just watch.

There is also other thing that we've barely touch - differences between those two planets. And that would be the most significant factor in that war, as Roshar and Scadrial are too unlike. The beautiful Coppermind provides us with every number about Roshar that is important - I was ready to calculate that myself. Mass, radius, gravity etc - perfect. I wish every planet page had numbers like that. The only number missing is the oxygen level, but we could assume it's similar Earth's around 350 million years ago - 35% - the biggest it's ever been on Earth.
Scadrial is considered to be very Earth-like, 1 Cosmere standard.

That would mean that every Rosharians would have to face 40% bigger gravitational acceleration (6.86 m/s² vs 9.81 m/s²) and also around 40% lesser oxygen levels (35% vs 21%). And that is a huge thing. Everyone would be 40% heavier, and they would feel being constantly crushed by gravity, without oxygen they need so much. It would be like climbing up mountain 4000 meters high while carrying almost half of your body mass in addition (and that's without including equipment). To say it would be exhausting is an understatement. It would make them unable to fight as they're are now totally off balance, with much heavier weapons, shields and armors, gasping for breath all the time. Logistics would be completely off, as everyone can't carry what they used to, and each box is much heavier than on Roshar. Using animals from Roshar would be an abuse, as they would suffer the same way. This alone would be an nightmare, affecting everyone, even Radiants. 

Radiants would have to heal constantly to compensate lower oxygen levels, and muscles exhaustion or bone defects as they are forced to uphold  40% more weight than they used to. But the feeling of being crushed by gravity would remain. Only Windrunners and Skybreakers (Szeth) can manage this but they might face some other problem. On Roshar they use lashings using Roshar's gravitational acceleration - here on Scadrial it's speculative if they would instinctively switch to Scadrial's one, or still try to use Rosharian acceleration value for lashings, which would require retraining and would cause lots of mistakes and problems for Windrunners.

But regular people, which are the vast majority of the invasion force, won't have such luxury. Soldiers would deal with it better than others, as they are trained and have much stronger muscles. But all camp workers, craftsmen, women and children would suffer immensely, as their body is just not prepared for this and their would lack strength to uphold their own mass. Combined with oxygen deprivation, this would cause damage to body, muscles, bone, heart and brain. Even horneaters would have troubles in that environment, they would tolerate oxygen levels, but not gravity. 

It's not that encouraging when most of your invasion forces suffers as soon as they place their foot on Scadrial even without enemy in sight. That would be true nightmare.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is also other thing that we've barely touch - differences between those two planets. And that would be the most significant factor in that war, as Roshar and Scadrial are too unlike. The beautiful Coppermind provides us with every number about Roshar that is important - I was ready to calculate that myself. Mass, radius, gravity etc - perfect. I wish every planet page had numbers like that. The only number missing is the oxygen level, but we could assume it's similar Earth's around 350 million years ago - 35% - the biggest it's ever been on Earth.
Scadrial is considered to be very Earth-like, 1 Cosmere standard.

That would mean that every Rosharians would have to face 40% bigger gravitational acceleration (6.86 m/s² vs 9.81 m/s²) and also around 40% lesser oxygen levels (35% vs 21%). And that is a huge thing. Everyone would be 40% heavier, and they would feel being constantly crushed by gravity, without oxygen they need so much. It would be like climbing up mountain 4000 meters high while carrying almost half of your body mass in addition (and that's without including equipment). To say it would be exhausting is an understatement. It would make them unable to fight as they're are now totally off balance, with much heavier weapons, shields and armors, gasping for breath all the time. Logistics would be completely off, as everyone can't carry what they used to, and each box is much heavier than on Roshar. Using animals from Roshar would be an abuse, as they would suffer the same way. This alone would be an nightmare, affecting everyone, even Radiants. 

Radiants would have to heal constantly to compensate lower oxygen levels, and muscles exhaustion or bone defects as they are forced to uphold  40% more weight than they used to. But the feeling of being crushed by gravity would remain. Only Windrunners and Skybreakers (Szeth) can manage this but they might face some other problem. On Roshar they use lashings using Roshar's gravitational acceleration - here on Scadrial it's speculative if they would instinctively switch to Scadrial's one, or still try to use Rosharian acceleration value for lashings, which would require retraining and would cause lots of mistakes and problems for Windrunners.

But regular people, which are the vast majority of the invasion force, won't have such luxury. Soldiers would deal with it better than others, as they are trained and have much stronger muscles. But all camp workers, craftsmen, women and children would suffer immensely, as their body is just not prepared for this and their would lack strength to uphold their own mass. Combined with oxygen deprivation, this would cause damage to body, muscles, bone, heart and brain. Even horneaters would have troubles in that environment, they would tolerate oxygen levels, but not gravity. 

It's not that encouraging when most of your invasion forces suffers as soon as they place their foot on Scadrial even without enemy in sight. That would be true nightmare.

Roshar has fabrials that can manipulate gravity, and Windrunners can manipulate atmospheric pressure. It would certainly be a pain but I didn't think it would be crippling.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I was ready to calculate that myself. Mass, radius, gravity etc - perfect. I wish every planet page had numbers like that.

Me too, unfortunately Brandon has been stingy with the numbers.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They are CS, Kandra are not.

Kandra are also spiked, and their cognitive aspect is so distorted that they can't access it without spikes.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I do agree, this disscusion is fun and entertaining for me too. Don't get me wrong, it's not about Nightblood or changing assumptions we've made, I just feel that we've discussed all we could, and there are just small bits that could be added.

If we go by theoretical limits there's a lot to add, now admittedly just by unified planets isn't a lot, but the increased airships, medallions, primer cubes for Scadrial and Fused, Thunderclast and singer for Roshar does add quite a bit of flavor to it.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Roshar has fabrials that can manipulate gravity, and Windrunners can manipulate atmospheric pressure. It would certainly be a pain but I didn't think it would be crippling.

I don't remember any gravity fabrials, nor does Coppermind, are you talking about pairing fabrials?
Windrunners can do it, but that's on relatively small area, and above 3rd ideal. And we are talking about camps of hundreds of thousands of people, extended frontlines, scouts, long logistic chains etc - even with 10000 Windrunners you wouldn't cover all operation areas. Not to mention, that would require almost doubling atmospheric pressure, which would cause other problems. You not only breathing 2x more oxygen but also nitrogen and CO2. Nitrogen can cause troubles - mild nitrogen narcosis. CO2 is toxic. Not to mention leaving area of increased pressure, can cause rapid decompression of pressurised air in your lungs ruptoring them, and damage to other parts of your body that holds air. And experiencing discomfort as there is twice as much air pressing on your skin. Not a nice concerns when you are in the middle of invasion.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Kandra are also spiked, and their cognitive aspect is so distorted that they can't access it without spikes.

Hemalurgy changes their souls but not to the extreme levels of CS, which are highly invested.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If we go by theoretical limits there's a lot to add, now admittedly just by unified planets isn't a lot, but the increased airships, medallions, primer cubes for Scadrial and Fused, Thunderclast and singer for Roshar does add quite a bit of flavor to it.

I do agree that there can be more, but it's lacking Harmony. There is lots of stuff that we know how they works, and can be significantly used in war, but we are not including them on Roshar's side, but only like 4 on Scadrial's - ships, medalions, primer cubes and more Harmonium in stocks. We've already talked about ships and their vulnerability, medalions can be usefull but have big limitations like cubes. And nothing more is known about Malwish and their technology. So in my opinion there isn't much to discuss about unify Scadrial.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't remember any gravity fabrials, nor does Coppermind, are you talking about pairing fabrials?

I'm talking about the fabrials mentioned in Navani's notebook. If you go to the painrail page one of the artworks has a translated version that mentions gravity.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Hemalurgy changes their souls but not to the extreme levels of CS, which are highly invested.

Not to the same levels, but they are far from human. 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'm talking about the fabrials mentioned in Navani's notebook. If you go to the painrail page one of the artworks has a translated version that mentions gravity.

I see it now. Don't tell me you got translated arts in english books?  
So they can only affect one person, or small region. So it still would be limiting and impractical to implement. Like advansing army, scouts, logistics, all would have to have personal one, and those  could be easliy damage by near explosion, and they won't affect equipment and stuff needed to be carried. Why personal and not regional? If a person with regional fabrial goes further away from the rest of the group, get killed or gem gets shattered, all would feel gravity again. And if everybody would have regional one, they would interfere with each other. Now the question is can Navani make millions of those in several weeks before invasion starts to supply everyone and to cover every camp and place they need? No for sure.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Not to the same levels, but they are far from human. 

I would say kandra soul would still be closer to human one than Fused soul to listener. How much closer? we don't know, it's RAFO for now.

Edited December 10, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I see it now. Don't tell me you got translated arts in english books?

Yep Brandon loves us best, totally 

not really, we just translated them and added the translation to the image

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

So they can only affect one person, or small region. So it still would be limiting and impractical to implement. Like advansing army, scouts, logistics, all would have to have personal one, and those  could be easliy damage by near explosion, and they won't affect equipment and stuff needed to be carried. Why personal and not regional? If a person with regional fabrial goes further away from the rest of the group, get killed or gem gets shattered, all would feel gravity again. And if everybody would have regional one, they would interfere with each other. Now the question is can Navani make millions of those in several weeks before invasion starts to supply everyone and to cover every camp and place they need? No for sure.

They only need one protected by a shield generator and have their reserves train under gravity increasing fabrials until everyone is acclimated to scadrian gravity. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yep Brandon loves us best, totally 

not really, we just translated them and added the translation to the image

I knew it! I'm definitely not too lazy to translate it myself, and not too forgetful to remember there were translated images already.

20 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They only need one protected by a shield generator and have their reserves train under gravity increasing fabrials until everyone is acclimated to scadrian gravity. 

One that would cover how big of an area? One that would be moved with advancing troops? Everywhere troops and people moves, you can't use that there. 

Acclimated? We're talking about gravity not air pressure. They can get use to feeling of increased weight, but higher gravity will still have effects on them. It would affect thier muscles, bones, heart and blood pressure. That would be especially harmful to non-combatant, workers, craftsmen, women and extremely dangerous to kids. Effects wouldn't be drastic but it will cause trouble and harm, as they constantly have to uphold 40% more of their body weight plus everything they have to carry. It's not something that you can just acclimate beforehand and forget about it. They would have to exercise daily for hour or two just to develop and keep their muscles in shape so they can uphold their increased body weight. 
Combine that with lower oxygen levels and they might even get mild oxygen deficiency in brain.

[Tglassy]

"Pew Pew, I hit you!  You died!"

"No!  My special belt gives me a force field!  You missed!"

"I used special bullets in my gun, and they go through forcefields!"

"Well, I'm so fast I just caught the bullet, see!" *demonstrates fastness, catching imaginary bullets and throwing them back* "Now I hit you!"

"No, my bullets can't hurt me, they just bounce off!" *demonstrates bullets bouncing off skin*

 

Seriously, that's what y'all sound like.  

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

"Pew Pew, I hit you!  You died!"

"No!  My special belt gives me a force field!  You missed!"

"I used special bullets in my gun, and they go through forcefields!"

"Well, I'm so fast I just caught the bullet, see!" *demonstrates fastness, catching imaginary bullets and throwing them back* "Now I hit you!"

"No, my bullets can't hurt me, they just bounce off!" *demonstrates bullets bouncing off skin*

 

Seriously, that's what y'all sound like.  

You don't have to participate if you don't like it. 

And if you think this is bad you should have seen the old thread. 

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

One that would cover how big of an area? One that would be moved with advancing troops? Everywhere troops and people moves, you can't use that there.

Area of affect is determined by the size of gems, the cut, and the amount of stormlight in them. I suppose it's possible that the metals used also have an affect, but we don't know. The alerter had a range oh hundreds of feet, probably a mile and a half, though I doubt that they could get a low gravity field out that far, so probably a half-mile radius at best.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Acclimated? We're talking about gravity not air pressure. They can get use to feeling of increased weight, but higher gravity will still have effects on them. It would affect thier muscles, bones, heart and blood pressure. That would be especially harmful to non-combatant, workers, craftsmen, women and extremely dangerous to kids. Effects wouldn't be drastic but it will cause trouble and harm, as they constantly have to uphold 40% more of their body weight plus everything they have to carry. It's not something that you can just acclimate beforehand and forget about it. They would have to exercise daily for hour or two just to develop and keep their muscles in shape so they can uphold their increased body weight. 
Combine that with lower oxygen levels and they might even get mild oxygen deficiency in brain.

It can't be that bad otherwise the ashynites would have had problems when they came to Roshar. Though yes it will be more difficult and non-radiants will be noticeably weaker than they were on Roshar.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Seriously, that's what y'all sound like.  

Yes, yes we are. And we're having fun. So what's the problem?

26 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Area of affect is determined by the size of gems, the cut, and the amount of stormlight in them. I suppose it's possible that the metals used also have an affect, but we don't know. The alerter had a range oh hundreds of feet, probably a mile and a half, though I doubt that they could get a low gravity field out that far, so probably a half-mile radius at best.

Not bad, but still how many of those would be needed and how many of those can be made with available gems. And that still doesn't resolve problems with moving in and out of fabrial range and moving, fightning troops. Imagine walking towards enemy lines and suddenly everything becomes 40% heavier.

29 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It can't be that bad otherwise the ashynites would have had problems when they came to Roshar. Though yes it will be more difficult and non-radiants will be noticeably weaker than they were on Roshar.

Ashynites face opposite problem - they came from Earth-like planet (higher gravity) to Roshar (lower gravity) so their muscles deteriorated and also experienced loss of bone. That might cause problems, but they were not coming back to Ashyn, as that's when it would be the most problematic. After thousands of years their bodies adapted to new environment. Astronauts on ISS have to exercise 2 hours daily to minimize effects of microgravity.

But on Scadrial there is an increase of gravity, suddenly their body have do gave 140% effort. For most soldiers this would be mostly ok, other (non-combatant) would feel gravity to be problematic, and for some it will be harmful, children might develop defects in body development. All however would feel effect of higher gravity, they would get tired faster and have muscle pains. And when you combine this with lower oxygen levels it goes even worst. Not crippling or terrible, but just highly troublesome. 

[Frustration he/him]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not bad, but still how many of those would be needed and how many of those can be made with available gems. And that still doesn't resolve problems with moving in and out of fabrial range and moving, fightning troops. Imagine walking towards enemy lines and suddenly everything becomes 40% heavier.

That is true.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ashynites face opposite problem - they came from Earth-like planet (higher gravity) to Roshar (lower gravity) so their muscles deteriorated and also experienced loss of bone. That might cause problems, but they were not coming back to Ashyn, as that's when it would be the most problematic. After thousands of years their bodies adapted to new environment. Astronauts on ISS have to exercise 2 hours daily to minimize effects of microgravity.

I was more referring to the oxygen problem, and Ashyn was mostly smoke and ash, so the oxygen imbalance would have been even worse.

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I was more referring to the oxygen problem, and Ashyn was mostly smoke and ash, so the oxygen imbalance would have been even worse.

No it wasn't? Ashyn was very Earth-like, before it's destruction, all that smoke and ash came after it. Whole system was made by Adonalsium:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

How is Ashyn Earth-like given its orbit? It should be even less habitable than Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Rosharan system was manufactured for a specific purpose. The position of the moons isn’t stable and even the continent itself might eventually vanish.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Overlord Jebus

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson

Whole system was created.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

They fled with the disaster, so they were not living in that fiery conditions. And, them switching into hign oxygen atmosphere, wouldn't cause harm, it would even slightly increased their body performance. 35% oxygen wouldn't be toxic for Earth-like human. But switching from 35% to 21% would be breathtaking.

 

Swithching from higher gravity to lower gravity - bone loss and muscle deterioration, extreamly bad when you comming back. Plus heart and blood pressure problems.
Swithching from lower gravity to higher gravity - exhausting, muscle pain, potentially slight bone problems, heart and blood pressure problems, risk of cerebral hypoxia.

Swithching from lower oxygen to higher oxygen - not a big deal if below 50% and 1atm
Swithching from higher oxygen to lower oxygen - shortage of breath, risk of hypoxia, for humans OSHA defines anything lower than 19.5% as oxygen-deficient and immediately dangerous to life or health.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No it wasn't? Ashyn was very Earth-like, before it's destruction, all that smoke and ash came after it. Whole system was made by Adonalsium:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

How is Ashyn Earth-like given its orbit? It should be even less habitable than Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Rosharan system was manufactured for a specific purpose. The position of the moons isn’t stable and even the continent itself might eventually vanish.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Overlord Jebus

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson

Whole system was created.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

They fled with the disaster, so they were not living in that fiery conditions. And, them switching into hign oxygen atmosphere, wouldn't cause harm, it would even slightly increased their body performance. 35% oxygen wouldn't be toxic for Earth-like human. But switching from 35% to 21% would be breathtaking.

 

Swithching from higher gravity to lower gravity - bone loss and muscle deterioration, extreamly bad when you comming back. Plus heart and blood pressure problems.
Swithching from lower gravity to higher gravity - exhausting, muscle pain, potentially slight bone problems, heart and blood pressure problems, risk of cerebral hypoxia.

Swithching from lower oxygen to higher oxygen - not a big deal if below 50% and 1atm
Swithching from higher oxygen to lower oxygen - shortage of breath, risk of hypoxia, for humans OSHA defines anything lower than 19.5% as oxygen-deficient and immediately dangerous to life or health.

The humans that came to Roshar were so covered in ash and burns that the singers thought they had skin patterns. (See Raboniel's grandmother's description.)They went from really low oxygen, high temperature environment, and instantly stepped into Shinovar, with its high oxygen.