Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.

[Tglassy]

First, someone mentioned not appreciating my snark, and Snark is my first language, so I appologize if it comes accross rude.  Translational issues and all that. 

But you know what would be really cool?  A War/Strategy Game based on these worlds.  

Create rules for a Roshar Map, a Scadrian Map, as well as give points to various advancements and abilities.  Special Invested Unites (Mistborn, Ferruchemists, Mistings, Ferrings, Twinborn, and Radaints).  It would get hella complicated, but then you could just play out what a Scadrian Invasion on Roshar would look like, and isa versa.  Not sure how you'd do that, but it would be fun. 

[Immortal Platypus]

so, I haven't read the whole conversation yet, but people keep talking about how Scadrial is superior in tech. Of course they are, they were told by a Shard exactly how to do it!!! And what they're forgetting is that SA 4 is 10-20 years before TLM. That give 10-20 years to catch up and get better tech. Plus they'll have fabrials, which people consistently forget about. How are Scadrians going to launch their bombs (assuming they can at that point) if they are in the grips of a pain so intense it incapacitated a Fused? She'd been alive for millennia and had that much time of dying and so she had felt a lot of pain in her life.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ookla the platypus

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Kuldak said:

In all honesty I personally think the conflict should be over a theoretical, uninhabited world, contested by both sides for resource/relocation purposes, rather than an invasion of Scadrial or Roshar directly. That would put both worlds on even footing of having to maintain an off-world supply chain. It would also bypass the potential issues with the Radiant Oaths conflicting with yet another invasion of an inhabited planet and it's civilian population, this time as aggressors, rather than refugees. However the discussion seems to currently be set on a Rosharan invasion of Scadrial.

That would be intresting, but Scadrial would fail in this enterprise for sure. Scadrial has no infrastructure in CR, no transport vessels, nothing that could even transport troops to other system not to mention whole army, with equipment and supplies. Scadrial can't do it, and it would take years to create such network from scratch. Roshar on the other hand, has already something. I don't believe that what Roshar has would be enough for full scale interplanetary invasion with proper supply chains, but with small presence of Basin forces on that new planet, Roshar would easily overcome them with what they already have.

 

9 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said:

so, I haven't read the whole conversation yet, but people keep talking about how Scadrial is superior in tech. Of course they are, they were told by a Shard exactly how to do it!!! And what they're forgetting is that SA 4 is 10-20 years before TLM. That give 10-20 years to catch up and get better tech. Plus they'll have fabrials, which people consistently forget about. How are Scadrians going to launch their bombs (assuming they can at that point) if they are in the grips of a pain so intense it incapacitated a Fused? She'd been alive for millennia and had that much time of dying and so she had felt a lot of pain in her life.

We did discuss some fabrial applications recently a little. And yes, Roshar has 10 years to catch up with tech, but they don't develop in that time motors, trains, guns or anything like this. Many advancements would be made (fabrials), but not on that scale. 
Your proposal of painrial usage is not possible. Fabrials has limited range. They won't be able to affect rocket launching crew stationed 50km away, nor artillery crew that can be even further away than 10 kilometers. Moreover fabrial gems are susceptible to damage from shockwave of nearby explosion (they can be protected from it to some extent) or, damage from iron/steel mistings (which might be not possible depending on how invested the wiring is). And of course leechers and grenades will drain any fabrial. Those painrials would also affect Roshar troops in the same way. But yes, fabrials would be extensively used by Roshar, and that would provide them great support.

[Immortal Platypus]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

We did discuss some fabrial applications recently a little. 

Thank you, I didn't know that.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

And yes, Roshar has 10 years to catch up with tech, but they don't develop in that time motors, trains, guns or anything like this. Many advancements would be made (fabrials), but not on that scale. 

It might be on that scale. It's definitely possible if they have help from any of their Shards, and they have three of them. And they don't need trains with Fourth Bridge style things.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Your proposal of painrial usage is not possible. Fabrials has limited range. They won't be able to affect rocket launching crew stationed 50km away, nor artillery crew that can be even further away than 10 kilometers. 

yes, I know this. I was just giving you an example of fabrial warfare (although it was one that wouldn't be practical). I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to use them. For example, flight fabrials would be useful.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ookla the platypus

[Kuldak]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

That would be intresting, but Scadrial would fail in this enterprise for sure. Scadrial has no infrastructure in CR, no transport vessels, nothing that could even transport troops to other system not to mention whole army, with equipment and supplies. Scadrial can't do it, and it would take years to create such network from scratch. Roshar on the other hand, has already something. I don't believe that what Roshar has would be enough for full scale interplanetary invasion with proper supply chains, but with small presence of Basin forces on that new planet, Roshar would easily overcome them with what they already have.

In fairness, what evidence do we have, for or against, the level of infrastructure in Scadrial's CR by the end of LM? The Ghostbloods seem to be based on Scadrial, and they are arguably one of the farthest reaching Cosmere wide organizations we've seen, they must have some form of infrastructure in place. We've seen evidence of trade, and possible small population relocations to Scadrial (Iriali like people mentioned in the broadsheets). Thus far Secret History is the only real experience we've seen of Scadrial's CR, and that was 300+ years ago, at a time when Kelsier had destroyed access to the only viable perpendicularity (which according to Hoid "Upended an entire mercantile ecosystem"), and a crazed shard was doing it's best to destroy the planet.

I will admit that it is almost certainly not as robust as what you would find on Roshar, as there is to my knowledge no native CR population on Scadrial like Rosharan spren. At the same time, if we aren't considering a unified Roshar/Scadrial, one could argue that the larger spren cities/infrastructure would not be counted as Rosharan assets for purposes of this discussion, as the vast majority of the spren population at the end of RoW is not on the coalition's side, and some are activly hostile to them. Any developments post RoW is just as much speculation as the status of Scadrial's CR by the end of LM. We even have some evidence that by LM Roshar's CR may be less than hospitable, given the statement that Roshar is inaccessible to the Ghostbloods (there are plenty of other viable reasons why the GB may not have easy access to Roshar, this is just one branch of speculation).

[Tglassy]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

That would be intresting, but Scadrial would fail in this enterprise for sure. Scadrial has no infrastructure in CR, no transport vessels, nothing that could even transport troops to other system not to mention whole army, with equipment and supplies. Scadrial can't do it, and it would take years to create such network from scratch. Roshar on the other hand, has already something. I don't believe that what Roshar has would be enough for full scale interplanetary invasion with proper supply chains, but with small presence of Basin forces on that new planet, Roshar would easily overcome them with what they already have.

Scardrial may not have a reliable, large scale way into the CR yet, but if they ever did findone, moving a vehicle into the CR to transport troops and such is relatively easy.  Their power sources (both electricity and Allomantic metals) isn't dependant on being on a specific world.  Roshar's is.  If going after a contested world, Scadrial would win simply because Roshar couldn't bring their stormlight, or radiants, with them.  They wouldn't even be able to bring their Fourth Bridge, because it requires Stormlight, which not only can't leave the system, but even if they found a way to make it leave the system, it wouldn't be infinite.  They'd have to continually port Stormlight from Roshar, whereas Scadrial can just set up a generator or power plant.  Fuel may be an issue, depending on the world, but Fuel doesn't have the expiration date that Stormlight does, unless they get ahold of a whole bunch of perfect Gemstones.  

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Scardrial may not have a reliable, large scale way into the CR yet, but if they ever did findone, moving a vehicle into the CR to transport troops and such is relatively easy.  Their power sources (both electricity and Allomantic metals) isn't dependant on being on a specific world.  Roshar's is.  If going after a contested world, Scadrial would win simply because Roshar couldn't bring their stormlight, or radiants, with them.  They wouldn't even be able to bring their Fourth Bridge, because it requires Stormlight, which not only can't leave the system, but even if they found a way to make it leave the system, it wouldn't be infinite.  They'd have to continually port Stormlight from Roshar, whereas Scadrial can just set up a generator or power plant.  Fuel may be an issue, depending on the world, but Fuel doesn't have the expiration date that Stormlight does, unless they get ahold of a whole bunch of perfect Gemstones.  

Scadrial will  NOT have an easy time moving to the CR. The Cognitive Realm on Scadrial is a sea of mists that only invented objects float on, trains, amd boats are useless there. The only vehicles they have that would work are the airships which are all too big to get through, so you would have to build them on the other side, which requires Malwish help.

At most they could get maybe a dozen individuals out by the time Roshar had sent tens of thousands. It doesn't matter if the Rosharans have spears, and the Scadrians machine guns, Roshar has more people than the Scadrians have bullets. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Kuldak]

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Scadrial will  NOT have an easy time moving to the CR. The Cognitive Realm on Scadrial is a sea of mists that only invented objects float on, trains, amd boats are useless there. The only vehicles they have that would work are the airships which are all too big to get through, so you would have to build them on the other side, which requires Malwish help.

It is clearly quite possible to move around in Scadrial's CR given the amount of trade and travelers we see to and from Scadrial. You have the exact same issue you do on Roshar in that the solid/liquid areas are inverted, and you have to have some sort of boat to travel the mists/beads. They would almost certainly be using similar methods that all other CR travelers use to create their boats. In fact, given that feruchemists can directly invest metal objects, it would probably be pretty simple to make boats buoyant enough to transport others. Given what we know about modern Scadrial's CR (as astoundingly little as that is), as well as the Ghostbloods being functional on a cosmere spanning level, this seems like it is a largely solved issue by the time of TLM.

 

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

It is clearly quite possible to move around in Scadrial's CR given the amount of trade and travelers we see to and from Scadrial. You have the exact same issue you do on Roshar in that the solid/liquid areas are inverted, and you have to have some sort of boat to travel the mists/beads. They would almost certainly be using similar methods that all other CR travelers use to create their boats. In fact, given that feruchemists can directly invest metal objects, it would probably be pretty simple to make boats buoyant enough to transport others. Given what we know about modern Scadrial's CR (as astoundingly little as that is), as well as the Ghostbloods being functional on a cosmere spanning level, this seems like it is a largely solved issue by the time of TLM.

 

Not really. Interworld trade was probably mostly carried out by the IRE, who have sources of investiture to just splash onto ships. The Ghostbloods only needed to get a dozen or so individuals around at a time, and they're complaining about how inconvenient it is. And even Harmony struggles to get kandra off world. That's not to mention the fact that in order to fill up metalminds large enough to serve as effective transportation, you would need multiple people storing for months at a time.

It's much easier to travel the CR on Roshar because ordinary wood floats.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Scadrial will  NOT have an easy time moving to the CR. The Cognitive Realm on Scadrial is a sea of mists that only invented objects float on, trains, amd boats are useless there. The only vehicles they have that would work are the airships which are all too big to get through, so you would have to build them on the other side, which requires Malwish help.

At most they could get maybe a dozen individuals out by the time Roshar had sent tens of thousands. It doesn't matter if the Rosharans have spears, and the Scadrians machine guns, Roshar has more people than the Scadrians have bullets. 

First off, if Rosharans magically get a means to move around the CR without those issues, than so does Scadrial.  My Dinosaur eats your force field dog.  

Second, it very much does matter than Scadrians have machine guns.  And Grenades.  And Metalborn that can use their powers by swollowing metal anywhere they are and isn't tied intrinsically to their home system.  Including an entire class of metalborn, coinshots, who manipulate metal, which ALL Rosharans use.  

What was it that Ham said in the second Mistborn book?  An army will typically break after losing 10% of their number?  Two Mistborn (and I know there aren't any in Era 2) took out almost the entirety of the 1,000 men that Set brought into the city.  Once the Machine Guns run dry, drop a few coin shots down there and let them use all the bullets to take care of what's left.  Unless they are on or near Roshar, the Rosharans won't have their Stormlight powered anything.  No Fabrials, no Radiants.  Just spears.  Rosharans are basically stuck where they are unless they find a way to move Stormlight off world.  Even Dalinar is stuck, unless he learns how to go off world.  Which, granted, he probably could figure out, but that's a HUGE weakness to have your entire warfare economy based on the abilities of one single individual.  They'd have to literally bring him all their Gemstones and let him recharge every single one every single week.  That's just ridiculous.  He'd do nothing but open Perpindicularies every day, all day.  You can't supply an army like that.  

[Frustration he/him]

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

First off, if Rosharans magically get a means to move around the CR without those issues, than so does Scadrial.  My Dinosaur eats your force field dog.

Roshar just doesn't have the issues in the first place, ordinary wood floats on the beads, it doesn't float on the mists.

15 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Second, it very much does matter than Scadrians have machine guns.  And Grenades.  And Metalborn that can use their powers by swollowing metal anywhere they are and isn't tied intrinsically to their home system.  Including an entire class of metalborn, coinshots, who manipulate metal, which ALL Rosharans use.

The Rosharan army is simply too big to kill. Coinshots can be dropped by arrows, so they aren't safe.

17 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

What was it that Ham said in the second Mistborn book?  An army will typically break after losing 10% of their number? 

There are a lot of exceptions. For example the Zulu tribe in Africa almost overwhelmed a British regiment simply by continuing to atrack even as they qere mowed down. So their tens of thousands almost overwhelmed thousands of British soldiers. If there had only been a dozen the British would have lost.

19 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Once the Machine Guns run dry, drop a few coin shots down there and let them use all the bullets to take care of what's left. 

What's left will still be thousands strong, assuming they haven't already won, and the Coinshots will fall shortly. 

[Tglassy]

22 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Roshar just doesn't have the issues in the first place, ordinary wood floats on the beads, it doesn't float on the mists.

The Rosharan army is simply too big to kill. Coinshots can be dropped by arrows, so they aren't safe.

There are a lot of exceptions. For example the Zulu tribe in Africa almost overwhelmed a British regiment simply by continuing to atrack even as they qere mowed down. So their tens of thousands almost overwhelmed thousands of British soldiers. If there had only been a dozen the British would have lost.

What's left will still be thousands strong, assuming they haven't already won, and the Coinshots will fall shortly. 

Your Anti-Dinosaur drones won't get by my drone eating wambats!

Seriously, we're just talking circles at this point.  Roshar can float on beads.  Great. Someone's already pointed out that a Ferring could invest a metal boat so it could float in the mists and you conveniently skimmed by that.  You want Roshar to win, so you're going to give it all the plot armor, despite the fact that literally no dominant culture on Earth uses spears and chain mail anymore, and hasn't since the invention of gunpowder.  Rosharans are stuck on Roshar.  They'll have an advantage on Roshar because of High Storms and Stormlight.  Everywhere else they lose, because no Stormlight, and bullet beats spear.  That's that.  There is literally no way to convince me otherwise.  Doesn't matter how many spearmen you have.  Doesn't matter how many useless fabrials you can create. If they can't get Stormlight off Roshar, they lose.  Period.  

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Your Anti-Dinosaur drones won't get by my drone eating wambats!

Look, are you here to participate or just give me snark?

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Someone's already pointed out that a Ferring could invest a metal boat so it could float in the mists and you conveniently skimmed by that. 

I did talk about it, right here.

On 12/14/2022 at 7:29 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not to mention the fact that in order to fill up metalminds large enough to serve as effective transportation, you would need multiple people storing for months at a time.

 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

You want Roshar to win, so you're going to give it all the plot armor, despite the fact that literally no dominant culture on Earth uses spears and chain mail anymore, and hasn't since the invention of gunpowder. 

That is not a historically accurate statement. Guns and spears exsistes side by side for centuries. And gunpowder predated guns by several more centuries.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

You want Roshar to win, so you're going to give it all the plot armor,

Please if I gave Roshar plot armor a single glowing sad boi with mental health problems would solo all of Scadrial. 

And one dude with a gun will lose to a force of spearmen, if there are more spearmen than he has bullets.

[Tglassy]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Look, are you here to participate or just give me snark?

Snark is fine.

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I did talk about it, right here.

Fair enough, I don't read all the replies, cause there's usually, like, twenty of them by the time I get a chance to get back on here.  But despite that, they have time, they have the Ferrings, if they're going into the CR, they'd make what they need to.  And they can always build a base on a waterway, which would be land in the CR.  Seriously, there are ways to do this.  If Roshar gets it, so does Scadrial.  It might be harder but it isn't impossible, particularly since they can apparently create Perpendicularites by just having a bunch of metal born around for a long time.  

And also, how are Rosharans supposed to get to Scadrial if the Mists are a problem?  Their boats won't cross the solid sea between them, and would sink through.  So...what's you're point again?

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That is not a historically accurate statement. Guns and spears exsistes side by side for centuries. And gunpowder predated guns by several more centuries.

Guns and spears did not exist side by side in the same army for centuries.  The closest thing you can come to that is the bayonette.  And Scadrial is ALREADY beyond muskets and the like.  They make semi automatica and fully automatic weapons.  Beyonettes stopped being a thing shortly after the civil war cause they just weren't needed.  Bullets are cheap to make.  Why would you not send your soldiers with enough to handle whatever?  

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Please if I gave Roshar plot armor a single glowing sad boi with mental health problems would solo all of Scadrial. 

Kaladin can't get on Scadrial.  He's a Radiant.  He can't leave Roshar.  And Wax could take on the entire Rosharan army.  

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And one dude with a gun will lose to a force of spearmen, if there are more spearmen than he has bullets.

You're making an assumption that they won't have enough bullets, which is a logical falacy.  Bullets are easy and cheap to produce, and Scadrial has an abnormally high ratio of metals in the crust.  They've got enough bullets.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Tglassy

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

And they can always build a base on a waterway, which would be land in the CR. 

The nearest water body is miles from the perpendicularity.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Seriously, there are ways to do this.  If Roshar gets it, so does Scadrial.

Roshar has already done it, they have done it for millennia. Even the most powerful groups of Scadrians struggle to get individual off world.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

It might be harder but it isn't impossible, particularly since they can apparently create Perpendicularites by just having a bunch of metal born around for a long time.

More than five years, while also bringing in unkeyed Investiture.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

 And also, how are Rosharans supposed to get to Scadrial if the Mists are a problem?  Their boats won't cross the solid sea between them, and would sink through.  So...what's you're point again?

They unlike Scadrial can just walk along the land and then make a perpendicularity on demand. Or create portals straight to other worlds.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Guns and spears did not exist side by side in the same army for centuries.  The closest thing you can come to that is the bayonette.

When do you think guns were invented? They were in use(alongside spears) during the 100 years war, the fall of Constantinople, and dozens of other conflicts. Early guns were less powerful than bows, it wasn't until after centuries of development that they finally replaced bows as the ranged weapon of choice.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Bullets are cheap to make.  Why would you not send your soldiers with enough to handle whatever?  

Send the six guys you can get out with over twenty thousand rounds of ammo?

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Kaladin can't get on Scadrial.  He's a Radiant.  He can't leave Roshar.  And Wax could take on the entire Rosharan army.

Any third ideal radiant could take out Wax, not to mention the hundreds of thousands or regular soldiers.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 If Roshar gets it, so does Scadrial.

Does that also work the other way around, if Scadrial gets it so does Roshar?
Because completely handwaving the difficulties is not how discussion can progress.

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 It might be harder but it isn't impossible, particularly since they can apparently create Perpendicularites by just having a bunch of metal born around for a long time.  
 

That was years of Metalborn in the same place + a lot of unkeyed Investiture (they basically built a Shardpool) and there was involvement of a Shard.
Not something Scadrial can replicate.

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And also, how are Rosharans supposed to get to Scadrial if the Mists are a problem?  Their boats won't cross the solid sea between them, and would sink through.  So...what's you're point again?

Currently the discussion is around fight on neutral third world I think?

And for going to Scadrial, they can easily cross until Scadrian Shadesmar, and then either stick to land or use their easier access to Investiture to make floating platforms/boats. (predicated as always on Bondsmith figuring out the Connection hack to get Stormlight/spren off-world).

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 And Wax could take on the entire Rosharan army.

Wax would die the moment he would have to re-load, or runs out of metals.
Just Alethi army was over 100 000 strong, entire Rosharan army would number in like a million. Wax most certainly cannot carry even 10 000 bullets, at best he could have maybe a thousand or something like that.
Even if there were no Radiants in the army, he would die before making a dent.

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You're making an assumption that they won't have enough bullets, which is a logical falacy.  Bullets are easy and cheap to produce, and Scadrial has an abnormally high ratio of metals in the crust.  They've got enough bullets.

They can produce enough bullets, but individual soldier won't carry more than a couple of hundreds at most and has to re-load every few dozens (depending on the weapon type).
And Roshar has their own ranged option (bows) which while far less deadly, can kill just the same.

Edited December 16, 2022 by therunner

[Tglassy]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

Does that also work the other way around, if Scadrial gets it so does Roshar?
Because completely handwaving the difficulties is not how discussion can progress.

But that's the thing.  You're giving Roshar things they don't have.  Like the ability to even get Stormlight off world.  

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That was years of Metalborn in the same place + a lot of unkeyed Investiture (they basically built a Shardpool) and there was involvement of a Shard.
Not something Scadrial can replicate.

They do have a Shard...

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Currently the discussion is around fight on neutral third world I think?
 

Fair enough.  But if this is the case, then Roshar loses.  They can't get Stormlight off world.  I'll explain why that matters next.

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Just Alethi army was over 100 000 strong, entire Rosharan army would number in like a million. Wax most certainly cannot carry even 10 000 bullets, at best he could have maybe a thousand or something like that.

And the Alethi Army has absolutely no idea how to deal with Supply lines, nor do they even have enough food to keep their nation going without Soulcasters, and off world, they have no Soulcasters.  Wax doesn't need bullets.  He just needs steel, which is an abundant resource.  Every spearhead and arrowhead and piece of armor in the Rosharan army are his bullets.  

Edit: IN FACT!  Because all the Steel in the Alethi army is soulcast, it is very likely pure, and I would say very likely allomantically viable.  So their weapons could very well be his fuel.  

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Even if there were no Radiants in the army, he would die before making a dent.
 

There would be no radiants in the army.  Nor would there be fabriels.  Or even an army, because Roshar doesn't grow enough food to support a million people without Soulcasters.  Or at least in Alethkar.  I know other nations don't have soulcasters and manage to live, but the Soulcasters is the reason Alethkar has the armies they do.  Farmers are held in high regard all across the world becuase the world doesn't generate enough food.  They'd never be able to mobilize a supply line.  They'd have to soulcast the food at home and ship it through the CR to the front lines.  And supply lines is not something the Alethi have any experience in dealing with.  

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Tglassy

[Frustration he/him]

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

They do have a Shard...

A dysfunctional one.

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And the Alethi Army has absolutely no idea how to deal with Supply lines, nor do they even have enough food to keep their nation going without Soulcasters, and off world, they have no Soulcasters. Edit: IN FACT!  Because all the Steel in the Alethi army is soulcast, it is very likely pure, and I would say very likely allomantically viable.  So their weapons could very well be his fuel.  

Or even an army, because Roshar doesn't grow enough food to support a million people without Soulcasters.  And supply lines is not something the Alethi have any experience in dealing with.  

They do in fact grow enough food to support their population. And while the Alethi are bad at supply lines the Theylans and Azish are excellent. And they have smelting, they have no reason to make steel exclusively from soulcasting, and even if they did Wax couldn't file it off.

Spoiler

ebilutionist

How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them?

Brandon Sanderson

The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth.

The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production.

Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better.

ebilutionist

Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it.

Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days.

Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.)

ebilutionist

Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam?

Brandon Sanderson

Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution.

Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create.

ebilutionist

As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3824

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tglassy]

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They do in fact grow enough food to support their population. And while the Alethi are bad at supply lines the Theylans and Azish are excellent. And they have smelting, they have no reason to make steel exclusively from soulcasting, and even if they did Wax couldn't file it off.

Of course they do.  It is infinitely easier to mould wood or clay into the shape you want and soulcast it into Steel, especialy when the fuel to do so is as plentiful as Stormlight is.  I'd say all of Alethkar's steel is done that way.  Yes, they CAN forge, but why bother?  They literally practice soulcasting by turning garbage into steel, and then melting it down.  

It's iike saying the average American has no need to buy bread from a grocery store when they can grow, harvest and process their own wheat and make bread on their own.  And yet 99% of Americans don't even know how to make bread if they already have the ingrediants, much less how to make those ingredients.  

Edited December 16, 2022 by Tglassy

[Frustration he/him]

23 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Of course they do.  It is infinitely easier to mould wood or clay into the shape you want and soulcast it into Steel, especialy when the fuel to do so is as plentiful as Stormlight is.  I'd say all of Alethkar's steel is done that way.  Yes, they CAN forge, but why bother?  They literally practice soulcasting by turning garbage into steel, and then melting it down.  

It's iike saying the average American has no need to buy bread from a grocery store when they can grow, harvest and process their own wheat and make bread on their own.  And yet 99% of Americans don't even know how to make bread if they already have the ingrediants, much less how to make those ingredients.  

The Alethi have hundreds of thousands of soldiers, unless the soulcasters are just making giant blocks of steel, which they will have to smelt anyway, they are making their own. And that's if fabrial soulcasters can even make steel(which I doubt, at most they probably just make iron).

And that's not to mention that allomantic steel is probably different than what they are doing.

[Tglassy]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:59 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Alethi have hundreds of thousands of soldiers, unless the soulcasters are just making giant blocks of steel, which they will have to smelt anyway, they are making their own. And that's if fabrial soulcasters can even make steel(which I doubt, at most they probably just make iron).

And that's not to mention that allomantic steel is probably different than what they are doing.

I don't have the quote, but when Risi's master is talking to the Shen in WoR, he trades them steel soulcast from garbage.  Mining on Roshar is difficult because of the high storms.  They would literally flood every nine days.  They would NOT be mining iron ore and smelting it unless they had no other recourse.  

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

I don't have the quote, but when Risi's master is talking to the Shen in WoR, he trades them steel soulcast from garbage.  Mining on Roshar is difficult because of the high storms.  They would literally flood every nine days.  They would NOT be mining iron ore and smelting it unless they had no other recourse.  

It's Wok page 430ish.

And mining is possible, Lin Davar made his fortune by quarrying rare stone.

[Tglassy]

19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's Wok page 430ish.

And mining is possible, Lin Davar made his fortune by quarrying rare stone.

A stone querry isn't QUITE the same as an iron mine, unless they always strip mine to find the ore.  Which is a possibility, i suppose.  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

A stone querry isn't QUITE the same as an iron mine, unless they always strip mine to find the ore.  Which is a possibility, i suppose.  

They can make any mine with huge cave on the bottom of it, to hold the water, or by finding underground river, to which water will flow. They can prevent highstorm water from enetering a mine, by placing the entrance on the eastern wall, not on the ground, and on the higher ground, or by sealing it before highstorms. They can soulcast a strombunker on top of the entrance to a mine. It's not like their houses and basements are being flooded every highstorms. Roshar has iron mining (the WoK chapter in Shinovar, soulcasted iron is there heavily valued), and soulcasters wouldn't be able to meet the needs of the entire Roshar, and there is very few of them.

Spoiler

Neuxue

Does Roshar have a magnetic field?  

Brandon Sanderson

Um, Roshar, magnetic field, yes, it does. Yes. Yeah it does  

Neuxue

You said at one point that it is all one plate--  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Neuxue

--that there's no tectonic activity. What is the interior of the planet like?  

Brandon Sanderson

That’s a good question... You're not going to get an answer on that one. It's a weird planet, let's just say that. It's a pretty weird planet

Neuxue

Are the diamonds naturally occurring?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but most are going to be-- They aren't-- all gemstones are naturally occurring, but most of, many or most of, the gems they are getting they are getting from creatures that grow them, not from the rock. Though there are mines on Roshar, you just have to-- most of them are on the leeward side of mountains, where the crem isn't being deposited.

Neuxue

So, diamond mines are about tectonics--

Brandon Sanderson

It was a created planet, keep that in mind.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

On 17.12.2022 at 0:33 AM, Tglassy said:

Yes, they CAN forge, but why bother?

Soulcasted sword out of wood will never be as good as forged one. It's not just about shape, it's about using proper type of steel and proper hardening and thermal processing to give desired properties to a sword.

On 17.12.2022 at 0:59 AM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And that's if fabrial soulcasters can even make steel(which I doubt, at most they probably just make iron).

One of the ten essences is metal and one of the soulcaster from Aimia was for metal so, if it's for making any metal than steel can be made as well (plutonium too )  

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

One of the ten essences is metal and one of the soulcaster from Aimia was for metal so, if it's for making any metal than steel can be made as well (plutonium too )  

One of the ten essences is pulp, but they have soulcasters that can only make wood, not grain or other plant matter. And steel isn't only metal, and the fact tat Azimir has one that can make bronze is considered noteworthy.