cometaryorbit Posted May 28, 2023 Report Share Posted May 28, 2023 50ish does imply that Brandon isn't thinking of alien Shards' god metal alloys though. 16 normal + atium + lerasium + 16 alloys of each = 50. 51 with harmonium, 52 with trellium. Kind of implies Brandon isn't counting harmonium or trellium alloys, maybe harmonium alloying doesn't work right (it splits the harmonium or something?)... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 29, 2023 Report Share Posted May 29, 2023 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: 50ish does imply that Brandon isn't thinking of alien Shards' god metal alloys though. 16 normal + atium + lerasium + 16 alloys of each = 50. 51 with harmonium, 52 with trellium. Kind of implies Brandon isn't counting harmonium or trellium alloys, maybe harmonium alloying doesn't work right (it splits the harmonium or something?)... I don't think alloying Harmonium would split it as when heating it up to 3000 degree C doesn't do that. It might be a possibility that some metals just can't be alloyed, like mercury can't be alloyed with iron or platinum. Harmonium might be such weird metal, but I doubt it. But we already know that other god metals are Allomantically valid, which brings the number of all metals to about 50 if you count all current 16 god metals. They can be made into alloys with base 16 and with each other, like the often asked question about Lerasium Atium alloy. And if Atium Lerasium can be alloyed together, why can't that new alloy be alloyed with base 16 metal, making another set of alloys? And the first WoB said "way more than 16" and in my opinion 50 isn't that much more than 16. Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) What will an Atium-Lerasium Alloy do ? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand.What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer? TWG Posts (March 23, 2010) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 29, 2023 Report Share Posted May 29, 2023 On 5/28/2023 at 8:10 PM, alder24 said: Harmonium? No. Primar cubes - yes, you can theoretically charge them with Surgebinding. But Harmonium isn't Pirmar Cubes, those have literally a switch, there is more to Primar Cubes than just Harmonium. Right, that's what I meant. Harmonium is just easier to type out. Quote But you don't get it back. It creates an area of effect. Put A-steel in a Primar Cube and it pushes you back. Feruchemy affects a Malwish ship, not you. You don't get that back, that's not possible for you. Well, you specifically don't get the power back, but the power is still utilised. Quote That's not like a metalmind. Medallions are at least filled by Firemothers, and you can tap them - that's like metalminds with both storing and tapping. And they store static investiture, not kinetic. Primar Cubes aren't metalminds. Primar Cubes are tech. And you can't charge them with more than one power - that's not a metalmind that stores anything. To claim that Primar Cubes are those metalminds, and that was what Brandon was talking about, would mean that he purposefully misinterpreted the question and answered it knowing others would think about literal metalmind - Brandon doesn't do that. It's a matter of interpretation at this point. The questioner asked if there was a way to create a Metalmind that can store anything. Not even necessarily Feruchemical Attributes, but anything. Brandon sometimes specifically answers a question literally if it gives him wiggle room to give away much, which is what Im assuming he did here. It could totally mean what you're saying too, but I interpreted it differently. Quote Quote I'm not arguing about it again, just go look for topics where I recently did (was it with you?), there I've listed my opinion on that, providing WoBs. I'm not arguing about it again as both interpretations are as likely to be true. Found it, just read it here, but I'm not arguing about it again, I won't respond: Yeesh, what happened on that thread? Quote Quote Hard to say. I personally think Connection is required to burn a Shardblade, because they are an alloy, pure Tanavestium should be burnable by Mistborn. But I'm not sure if everybody should be able to burn god metals, I think that's just Lerasium, and that wasn't even its primary effect. But Lerasium is said to form a connection, so alloying it with a Shardblade should allow Mistborn to burn it as now he has connection to it. Or it would grant him Surgebinding as an Alloy of Lerasium and Bavadinium gives Sand Mastery (per WoB). But that would still form a connection to Honor/Cultivation and he should be able to burn a Shardblade afterwards. SA Spoiler I don't think you'll need a Connection to burn a Shardblade, so long as the Shardblade metal is strictly only God Metals, even if it's an alloy. Connection to a Shard is needed to be able to use a Shard's magic system, but given that an Allomancer trying to burn a Shardblade would be using their own (Preservation's) magic system, they should be able to burn it anyway, even if the Shardblade itself is foreign Investiture made manifest. This is, I think, what Brandon reneged on in the conflicting WoBs, that Allomantically burning a different Shard's God Metal still counts as Allomancy. As for Lerasium, it gives you access to other magic systems by Connecting you to the Shard. Lerasium Connects you to Preservation, which has the side effect of making you a Mistborn. Lerasium-Bavadinium Connects you to Automony and her Investiture, which has the side effect of making you a Sand Master. Lerasium-Tanavastium or Lerasium-Shardblade metal should Connect you to Honor and theoretically grant you Surgebinding. This is where things get interesting though. Surgebinding requires a Spren bond. The only known case where they don't, the Honorblades, still require possessing something external to yourself to access the power. Surgebinding may just be an edge case where Lerasium can't grant you that power. Alternatively, Lerasium-Tanavatium might give you all ten Surges, without needing to depend on an external entity. The second one is unlikely since it goes against Honor's Intent of oaths and binding with other people (and narratively its ridiculously overpowered), but its still a possibility. If it's true, I imagine you would get either all ten or the two of the order you align with most by default, and you could then choose specific Surges or all of them by having a specific Intent when you burn it, kind of like how you can rewrite your Spiritweb with the right Intent when burning Lerasium, which is what all the power and Connecting stuff stems from. This is making me realize that Lerasium is really just a hyper-powered form of Forgery. It can rewrite your Spiritweb in whatever way you want, no matter how implausible (so long as it's not technically impossible) and the changes are permanent. Quote If he was able to store something in it, he would know what it is. He didn't succeed. Intent. He has to know what to store. He can't just store something, not knowing what it is. Unlike in Allomancy, there isn't any clear indication that you can store something in a metal - you need to know what you want to store to store it. Without that, you just can't. Remember, the Terris figured out the seven new metals after the Catacendre, even if the Spiritual Four took them a little longer to figure out due to their invisible and unobvious nature. The explanations in the Words of Founding were the Terris' history of using basic physical Feruhemy. VenDell makes a distinction between the metals with "Detailed explanations" and the Cognitive Feruchemy Quadrant. Also, if the Terris were told what the metals stored, they would be a lot farther in terms of developing applications for it than they are in BoM, given that they'd have had 300 years to experiment if they were told of what was stored in the Words of Founding. Sazed would know the metal was viable because you could Allomantically burn it, he just wasn't able to parse what it was that he was storing. Conversely, maybe Intent comes into play differently than what you're saying: Like how Szeth took ten heartbeats to summon the Honorblade, and how you can't tap an Unsealed Metalmind until you know what it is, maybe Sazed got convinced after he couldn't tell what he was storing that the metal wasn't viable after all and that Kelsier was lying; not knowing what's being stored won't stop you on its own. If it does, then that puts a serious hamper on Feruchemical progress, since you need to be told what you're storing before you can store it. That also makes the Fullmind near-useless, since beyond the 17 known Feruchemical Attributes, you can't store anything else in it, and without a Full Feruchemist, it's just a regular Metalmind in terms of functionality anyway beyond God Metals, which we don't know the uses for. I just can't see Brandon making Feruchemy work that way when we have proof that it doesn't, especially with the scientific method being applied to the magic in the books going forward. Quote No idea. Maybe. But good luck figuring out what can be stored than in that short timeframe and while freezing. It's not that hard, is it? I'm sure once the proper precautions are determined you could figure it out pretty easily by just spending time storing and tapping it, like any other metal. Quote Fabrials do the same. Awakened objects too. Soulstamps too. Fabrials convert Light into an effect or force. Awakening runs on Breaths, where any Breath can do the exact same things as any other Breath. I don't get what you mean by Soulstamps here. Quote That's Brandon, he knows how many metals there are, Peter likely did the math for him. You underestimate Brandon's attention to details and math: I'm not saying that at all, Brandon is nothing if not dedicated. He just doesn't know that we've done the ultimate metal count and crunched the numbers. He may have assumed that the questioner meant all the regular Feruchemical Attributes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 30, 2023 Report Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Well, you specifically don't get the power back, but the power is still utilised. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It's a matter of interpretation at this point. The questioner asked if there was a way to create a Metalmind that can store anything. Not even necessarily Feruchemical Attributes, but anything. Brandon sometimes specifically answers a question literally if it gives him wiggle room to give away much, which is what Im assuming he did here. It could totally mean what you're saying too, but I interpreted it differently. Metalmind is the necessary component of Feruchemy, metalminds store only Feruchemical attributes. It's not a matter of interpretation. At this point you purposely misinterpret not only WoB but metalminds as well. There is no wiggle room, Brandon said the word "metalmind". If he said "device" or "thing" or even "metal, anything other than "metalmind" you would have a wiggle room to interpret it differently. But he clearly said metalmind, which excludes Primar Cubes, because they're not a metalmind. SA: Spoiler It's like calling fabrials a Nahel Bond, just because they replicate the effect of Nahel Bond. Fabrials are magic-tech, just like Primar Cubes. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: SA Hide contents I don't think you'll need a Connection to burn a Shardblade, so long as the Shardblade metal is strictly only God Metals, even if it's an alloy. Connection to a Shard is needed to be able to use a Shard's magic system, but given that an Allomancer trying to burn a Shardblade would be using their own (Preservation's) magic system, they should be able to burn it anyway, even if the Shardblade itself is foreign Investiture made manifest. This is, I think, what Brandon reneged on in the conflicting WoBs, that Allomantically burning a different Shard's God Metal still counts as Allomancy. As for Lerasium, it gives you access to other magic systems by Connecting you to the Shard. Lerasium Connects you to Preservation, which has the side effect of making you a Mistborn. Lerasium-Bavadinium Connects you to Automony and her Investiture, which has the side effect of making you a Sand Master. Lerasium-Tanavastium or Lerasium-Shardblade metal should Connect you to Honor and theoretically grant you Surgebinding. This is where things get interesting though. Surgebinding requires a Spren bond. The only known case where they don't, the Honorblades, still require possessing something external to yourself to access the power. Surgebinding may just be an edge case where Lerasium can't grant you that power. Alternatively, Lerasium-Tanavatium might give you all ten Surges, without needing to depend on an external entity. The second one is unlikely since it goes against Honor's Intent of oaths and binding with other people (and narratively its ridiculously overpowered), but its still a possibility. If it's true, I imagine you would get either all ten or the two of the order you align with most by default, and you could then choose specific Surges or all of them by having a specific Intent when you burn it, kind of like how you can rewrite your Spiritweb with the right Intent when burning Lerasium, which is what all the power and Connecting stuff stems from. This is making me realize that Lerasium is really just a hyper-powered form of Forgery. It can rewrite your Spiritweb in whatever way you want, no matter how implausible (so long as it's not technically impossible) and the changes are permanent. SA: Spoiler The WoB specifically said that Mistborn is lacking a tie to that type of Investiture to even burn a Shardblade - he lacks connection to Honor and Cultivation to burn it. It's not that WoBs are conflicting, all states that it's possible but hard or unlikely to burn a Shardblade. There is something going on there that prevents it from happening, and a Shardblade being an alloy is certainly a part of it. Even Brandon said that it would act like an alloy of god metal - and we know from Mistborn that Atium alloy isn't burnable by everybody, but only to those that have a connection to it. Spoiler word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) Spoiler Questioner If a Mistborn were to burn a piece of a Shardblade, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson This would be hard to make happen, but it would be possible. A Shardblade is going to act as, basically, an alloy of the god metal of Honor and so what would it do? RAFO, but it is possible and it would do something. It would not be inert. It would be Allomanticaly viable. Footnote: This question was also addressed here. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Spoiler Kuron (paraphrased) Is it possible for a full Mistborn to ingest and burn a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It is possible, and it is possible that I might be able to see that in the future if I can fit that in. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) With Honorblades that's different as that's a pure god metal and it would act like a pure god metal. Which might be burnable by everyone (depending on your interpretation of who is everyone). Spoiler NeedsToShutUp What would happen if Hoid tried to burn the shard that came off Ishar's Honorblade? Brandon Sanderson If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it, it would act like burning... You would be burning a very pure form of a God Metal, and those have some very interesting effects. RAFO. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) As for Lerasium, that's my reasoning. If Mistborn is lacking a connection to Honor/Cultivation to even burn a Shardblade, alloying it with Learsium would give him that connection. There might be other ways, like becoming a Knight Radiant and having a spren merged into your soul, but if you have all proper metals, Lerasium might be the easiest way to achieve that. Whether Lerasium-Tanavestiu/Lerasium-Shardbladium grants you Surgebinding it's a matter for another debate. It might, or might make spren very willing to bond you, or could act like Honorblades or all 10 Surges - many possibilities. Technically every Shardblade has some difference in god metal composition, but all 10 Shardblades act like a single alloy, so depending on the type of Shardblade/spren you alloy with Lerasium, you might get only Surges associated with that Order, which might give you powers like Honorblade give, only with a direct connection to Shards, rather than blades. With a piece of Honorblade it might give you all 10 powers or there might be "some" differences in blades which determine which Surges a blade is giving, and that would again give you only those 2. Or not, you need a Nahel Bond to have Surgebinding and you can't get that from a metal. Or Forgery is a "Lerasium you have at home" 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Remember, the Terris figured out the seven new metals after the Catacendre, even if the Spiritual Four took them a little longer to figure out due to their invisible and unobvious nature. They didn't, BoM ch 3: Quote He paused, and circled his pointer around a group of metals and abilities at the bottom: Fortune, Investiture, Identity, and Connection. Wax leaned forward. They’d spoken of these during his year living in the Village, but only as part of the catechisms of Feruchemy and Terris belief. None of those specified what the powers actually did. They were considered beyond understanding, like God, or time. They know it stores "fortune" or "identity" but none of them knows what it means. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The explanations in the Words of Founding were the Terris' history of using basic physical Feruhemy. VenDell makes a distinction between the metals with "Detailed explanations" and the Cognitive Feruchemy Quadrant. Yes, he left a detailed explanation about physical and cognitive metals. But if he did that, why is it so hard to believe that he left a full Feruchemical table? Saying what Nicrosil does - storing investiture? There are more than 80 tomes of Words of Founding, and do you really think Sazed just didn't include a full table of Allomancy/Feruchemy, while he did include plans of Elendel city or hints of electricity or flying? Just writing "aluminum stores identity" is enough of a hint for Terris to know what it does in theory, but not understand it at all - as the quote proves. Why would he say that flying or electricity is possible but completely omit what half of metals do in Feruchemy? Don't you think that's illogical? 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Also, if the Terris were told what the metals stored, they would be a lot farther in terms of developing applications for it than they are in BoM, given that they'd have had 300 years to experiment if they were told of what was stored in the Words of Founding. Not really, because those Ferrings are not only extremely rare, but for most of the time they didn't have metals available as there was no proper metallurgical techniques yet: Quote “Chromium,” VenDell said, “nicrosil, aluminum, duralumin. These aren’t metals that most ancients knew. Only in recent times have modern metallurgical processes allowed them to become commonplace.” [...] “Research is ongoing,” VenDell said. “Ferrings with these abilities are very, very rare—and it is only in the last few decades that we’ve had access to enough of these metals to begin experimenting. Rebuilding society has been a … wearisome process.” Decades, not 350 years. And just because you know something stores identity, it doesn't mean you know what you can do with it or how to use it. Just because you can store senses in a tinmind, it doesn't mean you'll instinctively know you can store A-bronze sensing too. Edit: Spiritual attributes are more or less useless on their own. What can you do with no identity? What can you do with stored F-nicrosil? With connections you can do something, but people lack understanding of connection to know how to start. And whatever Fortune does. Scadians don't have any understanding of realmatic theory to work with those attributes. They don't know what connections are, what identity is (as Wax proved in that very chapter), what investiture is, not to mention Fortune. Just because they know Aluminum stores Fortune, it doesn't mean they will advance understanding of it enough to make a breakthrough in science. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Sazed would know the metal was viable because you could Allomantically burn it, he just wasn't able to parse what it was that he was storing. Conversely, maybe Intent comes into play differently than what you're saying: Like how Szeth took ten heartbeats to summon the Honorblade, and how you can't tap an Unsealed Metalmind until you know what it is, maybe Sazed got convinced after he couldn't tell what he was storing that the metal wasn't viable after all and that Kelsier was lying; not knowing what's being stored won't stop you on its own. Intent. Intent matters. You need to know what to store to store it. And you literally used an irrefutable example proving my concept as a counter argument - Unsealed Metalminds - Wax not knowing a coin was a medallion and not even feeling investiture available to him. Marasi, Wayne and Wax (and Steris or a Set member taking it out of her purse) not knowing a spearhead is the Bands, not feeling investiture stored in there. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: If it does, then that puts a serious hamper on Feruchemical progress, since you need to be told what you're storing before you can store it. That also makes the Fullmind near-useless, since beyond the 17 known Feruchemical Attributes, you can't store anything else in it, and without a Full Feruchemist, it's just a regular Metalmind in terms of functionality anyway beyond God Metals, which we don't know the uses for. I wouldn't call it useless - limitation. Brandon's magic systems are all about limitations. And if one of them is like that, then that makes it a perfect limitation. And Fullminds would still have a use, as you would only need to figure out what can be stored and try it, without thinking of needing another metal. It limits, preventing it from getting overpowered but leaves a good tool for discovery. It can be walked around - Shards would know what can be stored there after some time and some experimenting, people Ascending to the Well or Shards too. And if that was again like you said, I'm quite sure that a Feruchemical effect of Malatium would be noticeable - after all both gold and electrum have a very noticeable effect, Atium-electrum alloy too, Malatium would have likely a noticeable effect too. Which would make Sazed not being able to tell what he is storring very illogical. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I just can't see Brandon making Feruchemy work that way when we have proof that it doesn't, especially with the scientific method being applied to the magic in the books going forward. The second step in the scientific method is "make a guess", the third is "test it". Which fits perfectly to my idea, as now you have to guess what can be stored, test it and see if it's true if you could store it there. Question and guess: can I store height in Atium-pewter alloy? Test: I will try storing my height there. Result: I can store it! It works. Conclusion: you can store height in Atium-pewter alloy. Your idea is the opposite. First you test, then you guess what it was. That is the opposite of the scientific method. And what proof do we have? I see none. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I'm not saying that at all, Brandon is nothing if not dedicated. He just doesn't know that we've done the ultimate metal count and crunched the numbers. He may have assumed that the questioner meant all the regular Feruchemical Attributes. Literally the WoB above that one: "Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal?" - "Yeah, way more than sixteen." and that was just about 2 god metal alloys. Spoiler 17th Shard Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal? Brandon Sanderson Hmm, yes…I suppose there would be but there are… 17th Shard More than sixteen? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, way more than sixteen. 17th Shard Oh wow. Okay. That's fascinating. More than sixteen and less than infinite. Brandon Sanderson Yes. 17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010) Edited May 30, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 30, 2023 Report Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) On 5/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, alder24 said: Metalmind is the necessary component of Feruchemy, metalminds store only Feruchemical attributes. It's not a matter of interpretation. At this point you purposely misinterpret not only WoB but metalminds as well. There is no wiggle room, Brandon said the word "metalmind". If he said "device" or "thing" or even "metal, anything other than "metalmind" you would have a wiggle room to interpret it differently. But he clearly said metalmind, which excludes Primar Cubes, because they're not a metalmind. SA: Hide contents It's like calling fabrials a Nahel Bond, just because they replicate the effect of Nahel Bond. Fabrials are magic-tech, just like Primar Cubes. Comparing it to calling a Fabrial a Nahel Bond is an unfair analogy, I would say. There are fundamental differences between Fabrials and Nahel bonds far beyond the differences between Primer Cubes and regular Feruchemy. Fabrials use non-sentient Spren who've been trapped in a Polestone to consume Light and convert it into either an effect or into energy, whether heat, kinetic, etc, whereas a Nahel Bond is a deeply personal Connection between a 'broken' person and sentient Investiture, where over time the two conjoin into one. Surgebinding is an offshoot added bonus that comes from this symbiotic bond. However, the soul of Feruchemy is using metal as a battery to usher an attribute through space and time. Store speed into a Steelmind, then take that speed somewhere else and, days, months, or even years later, draw it out on top of your regular speed to become faster than normal. The same applies to Primer Cubes, they're just more extensive than a metalmind in the traditional sense. You can store a lot of different Invested Arts in a Primer Cube. The trade-off here is that although a Primer Cube can store more than traditional Feruchemical Attributes, you can't get that effect back directly. It extends the charge from itself rather than allowing you to draw it out and either compound or gain the ability. Store Steelpushing in the Cube, and rather than allowing you to Push harder when activated (Or give someone the ability to Push if they don't already have it), it simply Pushes from itself. Like you said, a limitation placed on it in exchange for the advantage. Can a Cube store a charge for as long as a normal Metalmind? Not at the moment, but I'm sure it could as technology advances; We've already seen that the Primer Cubes in TLM have been upgraded since BoM. Is the Cube a literal Metalmind? No, clearly not. Does it act like one that's been altered to apply to more Invested Arts? In my opinion, it does. I wouldn't say I'm deliberately misinterpreting the WoB. To me, what a Primer Cube does is just similar enough to a Metalmind (and it does do what Brandon says, if you accept that he may not mean a literal Metalmind that can store 'anything' (as in all Feruchemical Attributes) but something that acts essentially like a Metalmind and 'anything' means Invested Arts beyond Feruchemy) that this may be what he's talking about. There's enough in the wording of it to support my interpretation, even if it's unlikely. We can just agree to disagree about it, there's no need to get wound up. Quote SA: Hide contents The WoB specifically said that Mistborn is lacking a tie to that type of Investiture to even burn a Shardblade - he lacks connection to Honor and Cultivation to burn it. It's not that WoBs are conflicting, all states that it's possible but hard or unlikely to burn a Shardblade. There is something going on there that prevents it from happening, and a Shardblade being an alloy is certainly a part of it. Even Brandon said that it would act like an alloy of god metal - and we know from Mistborn that Atium alloy isn't burnable by everybody, but only to those that have a connection to it. The most recent one doesn't say that it's hard, it just outright says its possible, so Brandon may have changed his mind about it since not needing an extra Connection to use Allomancy makes sense to me, but he may be omitting it because he's already said it before, so just to be on the safe side let's assume the Connection is necessary. Quote They know it stores "fortune" or "identity" but none of them knows what it means. Yes, he left a detailed explanation about physical and cognitive metals. But if he did that, why is it so hard to believe that he left a full Feruchemical table? Saying what Nicrosil does - storing investiture? There are more than 80 tomes of Words of Founding, and do you really think Sazed just didn't include a full table of Allomancy/Feruchemy, while he did include plans of Elendel city or hints of electricity or flying? Just writing "aluminum stores identity" is enough of a hint for Terris to know what it does in theory, but not understand it at all - as the quote proves. Why would he say that flying or electricity is possible but completely omit what half of metals do in Feruchemy? Don't you think that's illogical? Hmmmm. That is reasonable, but the fact that Sazed tells Spook to "See if he can figure out" what the last metals are throws me off this idea. Why encourage Spook to "poke around" when the answer is has been displayed on a silver platter? Quote Not really, because those Ferrings are not only extremely rare, but for most of the time they didn't have metals available as there was no proper metallurgical techniques yet: Decades, not 350 years. Same point as above, that's a reasonable argument to make, but Sazed's message to Spook makes it seem like this is not the case. Quote And just because you know something stores identity, it doesn't mean you know what you can do with it or how to use it. Just because you can store senses in a tinmind, it doesn't mean you'll instinctively know you can store A-bronze sensing too. Those are two different scenarios, and Tin is something of an outlier in terms of Feruchemy anyway. My point is not that you intrinsically know what you're storing, just that so long as you know that the metal is viable, you should be able to store or tap it, and then work backward from the change occurring in your body to figure out what the attribute is. Store and tap in Pewter, and you can immediately figure out that the metal stores muscle mass. This won't work for things like Identity, you would need to understand Realmatic Theory for that, and so reverse engineering the attribute and its effects would be harder: exactly what we see in Era 2. I argue that Malatium stores one of these kinds of attributes and that once Sazed couldn't pinpoint what he was storing or tapping, his doubt causes Intent to kick in and block him from storing further. Quote Edit: Spiritual attributes are more or less useless on their own. What can you do with no identity? What can you do with stored F-nicrosil? With connections you can do something, but people lack understanding of connection to know how to start. And whatever Fortune does. Scadians don't have any understanding of realmatic theory to work with those attributes. They don't know what connections are, what identity is (as Wax proved in that very chapter), what investiture is, not to mention Fortune. Just because they know Aluminum stores Fortune, it doesn't mean they will advance understanding of it enough to make a breakthrough in science. Like I said, what you're saying is totally possible, Sazed's words at the end of HoA just throw doubt on this. But I agree, whether they know the names of the attributes or not, they should be at a similar level of knowledge of what the Spiritual Quadrant does since they'd both be trying to reverse engineering uses from something they don't understand. Quote Intent. Intent matters. You need to know what to store to store it. And you literally used an irrefutable example proving my concept as a counter argument - Unsealed Metalminds - Wax not knowing a coin was a medallion and not even feeling investiture available to him. Marasi, Wayne and Wax (and Steris or a Set member taking it out of her purse) not knowing a spearhead is the Bands, not feeling investiture stored in there. That's a false dichotomy. Yes, Intent can make you not realize Investiture is stored within. But if you know that what you have is an Unsealed Metalmind, you just don't know which metal it is, would that still prevent you from tapping the attribute, especially when tapping the attribute will then immediately tell you which metal it is? Quote I wouldn't call it useless - limitation. Brandon's magic systems are all about limitations. And if one of them is like that, then that makes it a perfect limitation. And Fullminds would still have a use, as you would only need to figure out what can be stored and try it, without thinking of needing another metal. It limits, preventing it from getting overpowered but leaves a good tool for discovery. There is no figuring out what's stored if that's the case. You can't use that metal until someone tells you exactly what it stores; that's why I'm against this viewpoint. The Fullmind's only use in that scenario would be not needing to go and acquire the actual metal itself. Quote It can be walked around - Shards would know what can be stored there after some time and some experimenting, people Ascending to the Well or Shards too. Spoiler The Well no longer exists, and it only made itself available every 1024 years anyway. There are only 16 Shards at any given time (Less now) and they rarely, if ever, change hands. Preservation's successions should be counted as one, since they all happen within a very short time and as part of the same series of events, which the original Vessel foresaw and intended, and one of them Ascended illegitimately, incompletely, and only did it to prevent the Shard from being Splintered, giving it up to it's intended recipient at the first opportunity. It never would have changed hands so much if not in that very specific situation. Ruin only changes hands once, again due to the same events. I'm tempted to count it as one with the Ascensions of Preservation because it too happens simultaneously and due to the same series of events, and it too was foreseen by Leras, but it's a separate Shard so let's count it separately. Odium changes hands because of the presence of a truly unique Invested artifact. No other Shard has ever changed hands that we know of unless you count Dalniar, but we know very, very little about what's going on with him, and he is by no means commanding the true power of a Shard. So collectively, that's only 3 true Ascensions since the Shattering, in over 10000 years of the Shards' existence. Not many opportunities for someone to gain access to the knowledge of a Shard. On top of that, how many Shards will then be willing to contact and give this information to a regular person, and what are the odds that person will share that news with the relevant people? Additionally, No one Shard may even know the properties of all of these metals. Harmony holds two Shards but doesn't know what Trellium's properties are. Preservation might know what Atium's alloys do, and Ruin likewise may know what Lerasium's alloys do (Hemalurgically and Feruchemically), but that's because they inhabit the same planet and their magic systems overlap. Bavadin/Her Avatars apparently know the properties of Trellium/Bavadinium, since The Set is able to effectively use it Hemalurgically, so it's possible the Shards themselves may know what their metals do (and potentially its alloys), but that still means that God metal Metallic Arts knowledge is fragmentary, and the vast, vast majority of them won't be known until Hybrid Shards start coming into existence. That's a very hard lock on Feruchemy, which is, again, why I don't like this idea. Quote And if that was again like you said, I'm quite sure that a Feruchemical effect of Malatium would be noticeable - after all both gold and electrum have a very noticeable effect, Atium-electrum alloy too, Malatium would have likely a noticeable effect too. Which would make Sazed not being able to tell what he is storring very illogical. Nope. All we know is Atium alloys tend to have temporal and metal effects. Beyond that, WoB (technically WoP) says that Alloys of Atium can't be thought of as setting any form of pattern, which is doubly true for Feruchemy, which has practically no pattern at all, even within the normal metals. Nothing indicates the attribute stored in Malatium will be noticeable. Quote The second step in the scientific method is "make a guess", the third is "test it". Which fits perfectly to my idea, as now you have to guess what can be stored, test it and see if it's true if you could store it there. Question and guess: can I store height in Atium-pewter alloy? Test: I will try storing my height there. Result: I can store it! It works. Conclusion: you can store height in Atium-pewter alloy. Your idea is the opposite. First you test, then you guess what it was. That is the opposite of the scientific method. You're gonna have a very hard time figuring out an attribute by pure guesswork alone. A lot of Feruchemy is abstract: Breath, caloric energy, determination, they're random and set no pattern. As for my idea being the opposite, how so? If you have a machine that you don't know the purpose of, how else are you to figure out what it is than by trying it? The scientific method applies here too. You know something is happening. Make a hypothesis, then test it. Same concept. "I know for a fact something is being stored and tapped here. Can I notice any changes in my body while storing, or while tapping? I should try a range of different activities to see. No changes? Then it must not be a physical metal. Maybe it's cognitive. It might be intelligence. Not mental speed, but actual intellectual quality. Let me try an exam, first normally, then tapping, then storing. If there's a significant difference, I'm theorizing along the right lines. If not, we move on. Maybe it's artistic talent. Let me draw something, then draw it while tapping, then while storing. Any changes?" etc. Cadmium, for example, would have been immediately obvious, even if you didn't know. You become incredibly short of breath when storing. Quote And what proof do we have? I see none. I was referring to the Terris having figured out the Spiritual Quadrant, as well as Cadmium, Electrum, and Bendalloy. Quote Literally the WoB above that one: "Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal?" - "Yeah, way more than sixteen." and that was just about 2 god metal alloys. True, but this was years before the question about Fullmind. He may have simply forgotten. Quote As for Lerasium, that's my reasoning. If Mistborn is lacking a connection to Honor/Cultivation to even burn a Shardblade, alloying it with Learsium would give him that connection. There might be other ways, like becoming a Knight Radiant and having a spren merged into your soul, but if you have all proper metals, Lerasium might be the easiest way to achieve that. Given what I said above, I think you are most likely correct on this one. Quote Whether Lerasium-Tanavestiu/Lerasium-Shardbladium grants you Surgebinding it's a matter for another debate. It might, or might make spren very willing to bond you, or could act like Honorblades or all 10 Surges - many possibilities. Technically every Shardblade has some difference in god metal composition, but all 10 Shardblades act like a single alloy, so depending on the type of Shardblade/spren you alloy with Lerasium, you might get only Surges associated with that Order, which might give you powers like Honorblade give, only with a direct connection to Shards, rather than blades. With a piece of Honorblade it might give you all 10 powers or there might be "some" differences in blades which determine which Surges a blade is giving, and that would again give you only those 2. Or not, you need a Nahel Bond to have Surgebinding and you can't get that from a metal. Or Forgery is a "Lerasium you have at home" A Spren has free will, I doubt having a Connection to Honor would convince one to Bond to you on its own. I didn't consider the whole "each Honorblade only gives 2 Surges" thing, good that you mentioned it. I think (if Lerasium-Tanavastium does give Surgebinding) the Honorblades would only give their respective pair of Surges. It does beg the question though, that if the Tanavastium in the Honorblades was specifically made with the intention of granting Surges, and each metal was different in some way, enough that it would change the Surges granted when wielded/alloyed with Lerasium and burned, what would regular old Lerasium-Tanavastium do, with Tanavastium not from one of the Blades? For that matter, what the heck would Cultivation's metal grant when burned with Lerasium? What's Cultivation's metal even called? Cultivationium is a bit too on the nose, Koravelliumium is just ridiculous, Avastium is just Tanavastium without the Tan, and Koravellium Avastium is way too long. Lifeium? Something similarly Cultivation-y? Also also, last question, why on earth did nobody bother testing Trellium for Allomancy and Feruchemy? There should have been plenty left over from the Chimeras Wax and Tensoon killed, and so far as we know, it was pure Trellium, meaning Wax could've both burned and Feruchemically tested it. Edited May 31, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 @Underwater_Worldhopper, I thought the new state of things was that any pure god-metal can be burned, so that alloy with lerasium wouldn't even be needed? Or is your proposed alloying with lerasium intended to obtain a permanent effect? But then, some other god-metals likely already provide one, IMHO. As to Stormlight spoilers: Spoiler Tanavastium, I imagine that it might bestow ability to inhale and infuse stormlight, with all attendant benefits. Hm, one of the Honorblades was notched in RoW, so who might end up with the precious piece? Hoid wouldn't need it after bonding a spren, but the Ghostbloods or other of-worlders are going to be very interested, I imagine... I wonder if anyone is going to be bold enough to burn one of the bits of raysium floating around... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Isilel said: As to Stormlight spoilers: Hide contents Tanavastium, I imagine that it might bestow ability to inhale and infuse stormlight, with all attendant benefits. Hm, one of the Honorblades was notched in RoW, so who might end up with the precious piece? Hoid wouldn't need it after bonding a spren, but the Ghostbloods or other of-worlders are going to be very interested, I imagine... I wonder if anyone is going to be bold enough to burn one of the bits of raysium floating around... There could be a complication, we know that metalminds and spikes are not burnable by anyone but their originator due to Identity (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13536). And Stormlight spoilers Spoiler Honorblades are self-aware, hence should have Identity of their own (like Medallions), WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15901 So you most likely could not burn the chip of Honorblade, due to this restriction. Perhaps bonding the Honorblade would give you appropriate Identity to overcome it, or storing your Identity could help. Similar issue would block burning of Shardblades, they have Identity of their own, and that typically precludes burning. So trying to burn Honorblade or Shardblade should be like trying to burn Metalmind of someone else, so not possible. The godmetal itself would be burnable, but not in this particular form. Edited May 31, 2023 by therunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Is the Cube a literal Metalmind? No, clearly not. Does it act like one that's been altered to apply to more Invested Arts? In my opinion, it does. I wouldn't say I'm deliberately misinterpreting the WoB. To me, what a Primer Cube does is just similar enough to a Metalmind (and it does do what Brandon says, if you accept that he may not mean a literal Metalmind that can store 'anything' (as in all Feruchemical Attributes) but something that acts essentially like a Metalmind and 'anything' means Invested Arts beyond Feruchemy) that this may be what he's talking about. There's enough in the wording of it to support my interpretation, even if it's unlikely. We can just agree to disagree about it, there's no need to get wound up. There are no words in WoB that supports this. Brandon said "metalmind" you interpreting it as something different. You can also store Surgebinding and all invested arts in nicrosilmind, which is "anything" that Brandon was talking about. Even listening to that WoB Brandon didn't even stutter. If you suggest that a metalmind isn't a metalmind when Brandon is talking about it, then we can as well throw all WoBs into the trash, as none of them matter anymore, when you can interpret everything as you want. Primar Cubes are similar to metalminds, but aren't one. Their similarities don't make them metalminds. WoB is clearly talking about a metalmind. Period. 13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Hmmmm. That is reasonable, but the fact that Sazed tells Spook to "See if he can figure out" what the last metals are throws me off this idea. Why encourage Spook to "poke around" when the answer is has been displayed on a silver platter? Why not? Those metals are unavailable before proper metallurgic techniques are developed and the best technological advancement Spook had at that moment was a green grass. Just because he would know what those metals are, knows what those metals are doing in general, doesn't mean he wouldn't need to "poke around" and play with them to figure out what he can do with them, what is the use of those metals etc. Or maybe he wanted to encourage Spook to read all 80 tomes of books? I don't see this disproving my idea. And technically there were 4 metals unknown to anybody, as Nicrosil and Chromium were also unknown to be Allomantic metals. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Same point as above, that's a reasonable argument to make, but Sazed's message to Spook makes it seem like this is not the case. Sazed message to Spook also said "I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing the bodies doesn't return the souls" giving the idea that he didn't know how to do that, but in SH it was revealed that they decided to go into the Beyond on their on and rejected Sazed proposal of going back. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Those are two different scenarios, and Tin is something of an outlier in terms of Feruchemy anyway. My point is not that you intrinsically know what you're storing, just that so long as you know that the metal is viable, you should be able to store or tap it, and then work backward from the change occurring in your body to figure out what the attribute is. Store and tap in Pewter, and you can immediately figure out that the metal stores muscle mass. This won't work for things like Identity, you would need to understand Realmatic Theory for that, and so reverse engineering the attribute and its effects would be harder: exactly what we see in Era 2. I argue that Malatium stores one of these kinds of attributes and that once Sazed couldn't pinpoint what he was storing or tapping, his doubt causes Intent to kick in and block him from storing further. With which I don't agree. Intent is always needed. Just like in Allomancy they need to search for metal reserves to burn them, in Feruchemy they need to search for proper attributes to store them. It just doesn't make sense to store "something" that you don't even know exists or what it is. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That's a false dichotomy. Yes, Intent can make you not realize Investiture is stored within. But if you know that what you have is an Unsealed Metalmind, you just don't know which metal it is, would that still prevent you from tapping the attribute, especially when tapping the attribute will then immediately tell you which metal it is? Yes it would. Wax recognised copper which made him realize what it can do, Marasi saw 16 metals in a spearhead which made her realize what she can do with it. BoM epilogue: Quote Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions. As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap. Wax gasped. Marasi was said to tap "everything" from Bands, and yet she didn't do that, because intent. Spoiler Oversleep (paraphrased) I asked whether we could call the Bands of Mourning the Survivor's Spearhead and whether it did have all 16 basic metal metalminds. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He hesitated a little but eventually said yes, there were all 16 metalminds. Oversleep (paraphrased) I asked whether Marasi tapped all of them, because she would tap Kelsier's Identity and memories. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He said intentions are important and she didn't tap all of them. Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: There is no figuring out what's stored if that's the case. You can't use that metal until someone tells you exactly what it stores; that's why I'm against this viewpoint. The Fullmind's only use in that scenario would be not needing to go and acquire the actual metal itself. Yes, you need to guess first what you can store in a Fullmind to store it. That's the first limitation. If it was like you suggest, a person using a Fullmind would be able to store everything there, not knowing what it is, hundreds of different attributes, and tap it all when needed, during fight etc. That would be extremely overpowered and unbalanced, too much. That can't be the case because it's against the idea of magic based on limitations. It's not about possibilities. Your idea give Fullmind too much power, while my limits it use and applicability, in some cases it would be wasteful to use Fullmind, which is fine, but in other cases it would be very useful to have. A Fullmind working like I propose isn't overly powerful and unbalanced. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Well no longer exists Nobody except for Sazed knows this. And there are some quite heavy spoilers openly visible in your post there. Edit it please. This is Mistborn forum. And again, it's fine that there are little to none people/Vessels who would know what unknown to public metals can store. That's fine. That's another limitation. And yes, as Harmony proved, they don't necessarily are aware of what all those metals can do. Which is again fine. Cosmere spoilers Spoiler After more than 10000 years Kel was the first one to Ascend, Vin followed weeks later and Sazed days later to dual Shard. 350 years later T Ascended as well. That's a lot! 4 Ascension to full Shard. Comparing this to 16 Vessels, a lot happened in that short period of time. And whatever Dalinar did in OB to add more. "Just now Vessels are dying like flies" 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Nope. All we know is Atium alloys tend to have temporal and metal effects. Beyond that, WoB (technically WoP) says that Alloys of Atium can't be thought of as setting any form of pattern, which is doubly true for Feruchemy, which has practically no pattern at all, even within the normal metals. Nothing indicates the attribute stored in Malatium will be noticeable. And yet another WoB states it's very important that Atium and Malatium are on the opposite side of the table compared to gold and electrum. I would be very surprised if Malatium stored spiritual attributes out of nowhere, while everything else in that quadrant, including Atium, is physical. Spoiler Kirrin Also, you should tell us what the last two metals are. Brandon Sanderson The last two metals are chromium and nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.) Happy Man If I read the poster correctly, and have the correlations down, these metals are the external enhancement metals. The simplest idea is that they do to another person what aluminum and duralumin do to the Allomancer burning them. If this is true, then chromium would destroy another Allomancer's metals (useful skill, that, especially in a group of Mistings fighting a Mistborn) while nicrosil would cause the target's metals that are currently burning to be burned in a brief, intense flash. This could be used either to enhance a group of Mistings or to seriously mess up an enemy Allomancer. Peter Ahlstrom The other metals do not have exact one-to-one power correlations like that, so it seems more likely to me that they would work differently. It could be like an area effect weakening or enhancing spell. You would want an enhancer in your party, and you wouldn't want to go up against a weakener. Nicrosil is a rather more complicated alloy than the others. It's an interesting one to pick, rather than something simpler like nichrome (though I guess that's actually a brand name). Brandon Sanderson Nicely done. Ookla is right, the others don't have 1/1 correlations. But I liked this concept far too much not to use it. In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend. The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings—however, the latter are far more common. In this environment, a nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Mistings. Douglas I take it either Spook did not have children or Sazed made him a reduced-strength Mistborn rather than giving him the full potency of the 9 originals and Elend? Brandon Sanderson Spook is a reduced power Mistborn. Chaos Very interesting about the nicrosil. So, if there is no more atium, then that would mean in any future trilogy, there would only be 14 metals, right? Somehow, that doesn't seem right, but maybe that is because it irks me that one quartet to be left incomplete with the absence of atium. Would it be possible for Sazed to create a replacement metal, by chance, or will the temporal quartet remain inherently empty? It doesn't seem like it's too far of a stretch for Sazed to make more metals: after all, the metal Elend ate was a fragment of Preservation, and now Sazed holds Preservation. Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Suffice it to say that what the characters think they understand about the metals, they don't QUITE get right. If you study the interaction between the temporal metals, you might notice an inconsistency in the way they work... Peter Ahlstrom Uh-huh. That was already noticed by theorizers in the forums here. Gold works like malatium and electrum works like atium. Yet they're on opposite corners of the metal square. Brandon Sanderson Ah. I wondered if that had been noticed. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: You're gonna have a very hard time figuring out an attribute by pure guesswork alone. A lot of Feruchemy is abstract: Breath, caloric energy, determination, they're random and set no pattern Not random. 2 physical, 1 spiritual and 1 mental quadrants. You know more or less what to search for. But yes, lots of guessing is needed, which is good. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: As for my idea being the opposite, how so? If you have a machine that you don't know the purpose of, how else are you to figure out what it is than by trying it? The scientific method applies here too. You know something is happening. Make a hypothesis, then test it. Same concept. Yeah, but in our world you don't need to have Intent to turn on the machine, while in Cosmere you need Intent to use everything. Spikes, metalmind, medallions, Breaths, Honorblades - everything works based on intent and without it you just can't use it. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: True, but this was years before the question about Fullmind. He may have simply forgotten. I won't even comment on that. Or I will - Brandon knows there are a lot of metals, Brandon knows there is a metalmind that can store anything. Would that anything include all those metals only he knows about? Very likely. Can it be different? Yes. I can see it working more or less based on god metals used in that Fullmind. If it's made out of Lerasium/Atium, it can store all 16 based, Lerasium alloys, Atium alloys and Atium-Lerasium alloys. Add Trellium to that and it can store all those alloys with Trellium etc. SA: Spoiler 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: A Spren has free will, I doubt having a Connection to Honor would convince one to Bond to you on its own. Not convince, more like attract. Just like sprens are attract to people close to other Radiants. Just like how Kholins are so Radiant, Bridgeman too etc. A Spren will still have to make a conscious decision to bond but some might be drawn to that person more. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It does beg the question though, that if the Tanavastium in the Honorblades was specifically made with the intention of granting Surges, and each metal was different in some way, enough that it would change the Surges granted when wielded/alloyed with Lerasium and burned, what would regular old Lerasium-Tanavastium do, with Tanavastium not from one of the Blades? All 10 Surges? Maybe? But again it's speculative if each Honorblade's metal is different in some way. WoB call it pure Tanavastium. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: For that matter, what the heck would Cultivation's metal grant when burned with Lerasium? Lifebending! Cultivation has her own magic system. Spoiler PrinceDusty At the Pixel Project event, you talked about a further extent of Cultivation's magic than just the boon and bane? Are there any people alive at the end of Oathbringer who are influenced by that magic? Brandon Sanderson Yes, Lift. Well, I guess that's a boon, isn't it? Yes, there are. But nobody on screen that has Cultivation magic, other than boons or curses from the Nightwatcher. Yes, there is such a thing, no, there's no one else on screen. But what Lift does is a hint. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: What's Cultivation's metal even called? Cultivationium is a bit too on the nose, Koravelliumium is just ridiculous, Avastium is just Tanavastium without the Tan, and Koravellium Avastium is way too long. Lifeium? Something similarly Cultivation-y? Koravellium There was a WoB about Waxillium's god metal being called Waxillium. And it's beautiful. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Also also, last question, why on earth did nobody bother testing Trellium for Allomancy and Feruchemy? There should have been plenty left over from the Chimeras Wax and Tensoon killed, and so far as we know, it was pure Trellium, meaning Wax could've both burned and Feruchemically tested it. They didn't have clean Trellium. All Trellium they had was from spikes, which had a Hemalurgic charge. That would be like trying to burn someone else's metalmind. And what if burning that would connect you to Autonomy in a way you don't want to be connected? Wax was already unwilling to use Atium and Lerasium if he would be able to produce it, so why Trellium if he doesn't know what it does. But yes, it's weird that nobody tried this, but people on Scadrial still don't know that Atium in era 1 wasn't a pure god metal but an alloy, and they might believe that you need to be a Misting of that metal or Mistborn to be able to burn it. Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) Would you be able to get any kind of additional power from burning a Hemalurgic spike? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There would be power there, but you wouldn’t be able to access it. Like burning someone else’s metalmind. American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019) 30 minutes ago, Isilel said: @Underwater_Worldhopper, I thought the new state of things was that any pure god-metal can be burned, so that alloy with lerasium wouldn't even be needed? Or is your proposed alloying with lerasium intended to obtain a permanent effect? But then, some other god-metals likely already provide one, IMHO. As to Stormlight spoilers: Hide contents Tanavastium, I imagine that it might bestow ability to inhale and infuse stormlight, with all attendant benefits. Hm, one of the Honorblades was notched in RoW, so who might end up with the precious piece? Hoid wouldn't need it after bonding a spren, but the Ghostbloods or other of-worlders are going to be very interested, I imagine... I wonder if anyone is going to be bold enough to burn one of the bits of raysium floating around... Pure god metal should be burnable by everyone, Honorblades should be, but Shardblades are alloys, they aren't pure and they would act like an alloy when burning it - that's why connection might be needed. My idea was to alloy a Shardblade with Lerasium to gain a permanent connection which would allow you to burn normal Shardblade whenever you want. Lerasium making people into Mistborn is a side effect, a Mistborn burning it would have a different effect. I think it's very possible that only Lerasium can be burned by non-Allomancers to produce a side-effect and all other god metals like Atium can be burned only by Allomancers (Brandon wants it to work like that in movies). SA: Spoiler Good idea about Tanavastium giving you only the ability to inhale Stormlight. That's a good compromise. For a Mistborn/Misting it could possibly allow them to fuel their Allomancy with Stormlight which would be very powerful. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson So, one thing I think I did wrong in the books was not having more allomancer guards and soldiers who were women. I don't think our same gender norms would be the case on Scadrial. One of the [screenplay] revisions is this: Shan is no longer Elend's fiance, but his sister. Their father has left on business to the outer domninances, and so Shan is making a play to secure the heirship, trying to prove she is more bold and strong than her brother. This is what gives the team an opening, and why they're striking now with the heist, as in this version, House Venture maintains the city policing and has access to the atium stash. The plan is to put a few Allomancers (including Ham) into the Venture house guard, and exploit Shan's desire to prove herself by creating chaos in the city that she'll think she needs to put down with decisive action. That will involve her pulling out the atium stash, which will in turn let the team know where to go to rob them. It streamlines the book's story in some elegant ways to do this. Shan becomes the primary "mark" of the book, in many ways. It also lets me explain a little more succinctly what various members of the crew are doing in the background while we focus on Vin, who is to get close to Shan as a confidant--which is why she's sent to the parties. And why Shan being a brat to her isn't just annoying, it means a major part of the plan isn't yet in place. It explains way better, in my opinion, why Shan would act against Elend. It's all clicking into place as I move pieces around. That said, I understand those who want a Television show. I could see going that way, perhaps. Trouble is, nobody in streaming needs a big fantasy property. Anywhere I go right now, I'd be in a distant second or third place to Tolkien, WoT, Witcher, or Kingkiller. The offers I've gotten have been for a fraction of the budget of those shows--since everyone has already spent big money on their big fantasy show, and isn't really interested in another. I'm confident feature is the place I want Mistborn; but even if I weren't, I'm not thrilled by the idea of being lost on Netflix as their "other" fantasy show. Rapharasium I don't know if I'm being negative, but these changes really worry and disappoint me. I really like Era 1 as it is, and all this change in the dynamics of society and the plot as too drastic. Brandon Sanderson This isn't negative; I understand this response, and think it's valid. At the same time, I'm of the personal philosophy that a film should generally be a different beast than a book--a book can lean into the little intricacies of a story, while a film should be a bold but unified statement. Nothing will happen to the books; those will remain the same. But if I want this film to work as a film, I believe I need to be willing to re-imagine parts of the story. Mycroft_canner With Elend having a sister does that mean you don’t need the Zane plot anymore? Brandon Sanderson That's from the second book--so it would be in the television show, and we'd likely still do it. DataLoreHD prove she is more bold and strong than her brother Which brother?It certainly could not be Elend, right? Elend had no Allomancy powers (before he ate the lerasium in WoA), so Straff despised Elend and thought him too weak.And Zane was a bastard and also mad dog.If Shan was Straff's legitimate daughter, then her succession was already 100% secure. She wouldn't need to prove anything to anybody. Brandon Sanderson It will be Elend, but it's more that this is the first time that Shan gets to be on her own, leading by herself, and wants to show off for the Lord Ruler. Also, there's the question of whether the male heir--though inferior in this case--might get the nod for sexism reasons. I think it's going to work just fine, but I'll admit, it's getting a little rough to discuss all these details on a thread like this--I can't answer everyone's questions, I'm afraid. I just wanted to indicate the kinds of changes I'm looking at making. Whatever I do will go through my standard "show it to tons of beta readers and get feedback" process, so I should be able to catch problems and fix them. meh84f The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected? Brandon Sanderson So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off. So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.) Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form. The Lord Ruler is still the "big bad" but Shan and the Inquisitors both get a little more screen time. (Actually, about the same as in the books--it's just that other parts are being trimmed, making them more front-and-center.) Phantine Based on that, you're also streamlining away the Sign of Sixteen if it gets a sequel? To be honest, that didn't really work for me in the novel anyway. Brandon Sanderson It's one of my least favorite parts of the trilogy. It (along with Vin drawing upon the mists in book one) are big changes I'm hoping to make to fix weaker sections of the continuity. General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020) 19 minutes ago, therunner said: There could be a complication, we know that metalminds and spikes are not burnable by anyone but their originator due to Identity (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13536). And Stormlight spoilers Hide contents Honorblades are self-aware, hence should have Identity of their own (like Medallions), WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15901 So you most likely could not burn the chip of Honorblade, due to this restriction. Perhaps bonding the Honorblade would give you appropriate Identity to overcome it, or storing your Identity could help. Similar issue would block burning of Shardblades, they have Identity of their own, and that typically precludes burning. So trying to burn Honorblade or Shardblade should be like trying to burn Metalmind of someone else, so not possible. The godmetal itself would be burnable, but not in this particular form. SA: Spoiler That's a very good point I've never considered. Not connection but Identity preventing this. Interesting take. It's very likely that this would be a factor. However the WoB said it would be like burning a very pure form of a god metal, which I don't think suggests that Identity would matter in the case of Tanavastium. Still, it's worth considering. Spoiler NeedsToShutUp What would happen if Hoid tried to burn the shard that came off Ishar's Honorblade? Brandon Sanderson If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it, it would act like burning... You would be burning a very pure form of a God Metal, and those have some very interesting effects. RAFO. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Isilel said: @Underwater_Worldhopper, I thought the new state of things was that any pure god-metal can be burned, so that alloy with lerasium wouldn't even be needed? Or is your proposed alloying with lerasium intended to obtain a permanent effect? But then, some other god-metals likely already provide one, IMHO. As to Stormlight spoilers: Hide contents Tanavastium, I imagine that it might bestow ability to inhale and infuse stormlight, with all attendant benefits. Hm, one of the Honorblades was notched in RoW, so who might end up with the precious piece? Hoid wouldn't need it after bonding a spren, but the Ghostbloods or other of-worlders are going to be very interested, I imagine... I wonder if anyone is going to be bold enough to burn one of the bits of raysium floating around... So, it's to do with the nature of God Metals, Lerasium in particular. Each God metal has one unique property, something that it does. For example, Raysium, Odium's God Metal, conducts Investiture. Trellium/Bavadinium, Autonomy's God Metal, repels other sources of Investiture. We don't know the passive properties of most God Metals, though. The second thing relevant about God Metals is that all of them and all of their alloys have applications in the Metallic Arts, and are said to be burnable by "anyone". What this means is unclear. 'Anyone' may refer to any sapient creature in the Cosmere with the Intent of burning the metal Allomantically, or to anyone who is Scadrian or has Scadrian heritage, or more specifically any Allomancer, regardless of which type they are. I personally think the first one is unlikely, and one of the latter two is the true case, but it could be any of the three. Burning Lerasium, for example, forges a permanent Connection to Preservation, which has the side effect of making you a Mistborn. Burning Pure Atium allows you to glimpse the Spiritual Realm, like the Shards. Burning Atium-Electrum (which is Atium as it was known in Era 1) shows you what someone else will do in the immediate future. Burning Atium-Gold (Malatium) shows you a version of someone's past, or who they would be if they had made different choices. Burning any of the 16 Lerasium alloys with the regular metals will forge a Connection between you and Preservation in a way that makes you a Misting of the metal you alloyed the Lerasium with as a side effect. We don't know what Honor's God Metal (Tanavastium) does when burned or used in Hemalurgy/Feruchemy, but it could do anything from letting you glimpse the Cognitive Realm to letting you fly and vomit rainbows. We just don't know. What we were discussing there is that Lerasium, when alloyed with another God Metal, gives you a powerful Connection to the Shard whose metal you alloyed and burned, and this typically gives you access to that Shard's magic system. What would happen if you alloyed Lerasium with Tanavastium and burned it? Normally, this should give you access to Honor's magic system, which is Surgebinding. Except, Surgebinding requires the consent of a Spren. That's where the theorizing comes in, and that's what Alder and I were discussing. Tanavastium's Allomantic effect is separate from what burning Lerasium alloyed with Tanavastium. 8 minutes ago, therunner said: There could be a complication, we know that metalminds and spikes are not burnable by anyone but their originator due to Identity (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13536). You're misunderstanding. You can burn a Hemalurgic spike or Metalmind for the regular effect you'd get from that metal (so burning a Steel Hemalurgic spike or a Steel Metalmind would let you see the blue lines and Push on metals), you just can't get anything extra from burning it. If Sazed was an Allomancer as well as a Feruchemist, he could store a little bit of speed in a Steel Metalmind, then burn that Metalmind, and instead of the blue lines and Pushing on metals, the speed in the Metalmind would get multiplied many times over, far more than what you originally put in, and he could get unlimited speed by storing that speed and repeating the process, letting him use way more speed than any other Feruchemist without ever needing to store speed himself beyond that little bit. That's what the Lord Ruler did, and that's what we call Compounding. However, if Vin burned that same Steel Metalmind, she would get regular old Pushing metals Steel, no speed, because her Identity doesn't match Sazed's Identity, which is what the speed in the Metalmind is keyed to. It doesn't mean she couldn't burn that metal at all. 8 minutes ago, therunner said: And Stormlight spoilers Hide contents Honorblades are self-aware, hence should have Identity of their own (like Medallions), WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15901 So you most likely could not burn the chip of Honorblade, due to this restriction. Perhaps bonding the Honorblade would give you appropriate Identity to overcome it, or storing your Identity could help. This doesn't work the way you're thinking. You would probably need a Connection to Honor to be able to burn the Honorblade (like Alder and I were discussing), but Identity doesn't affect burning at all. 8 minutes ago, therunner said: Similar issue would block burning of Shardblades, they have Identity of their own, and that typically precludes burning. So trying to burn Honorblade or Shardblade should be like trying to burn Metalmind of someone else, so not possible. The godmetal itself would be burnable, but not in this particular form. The God Metal itself could be burnable if you get the right Connection, but Identity won't stop you from burning the metal once you did. The reason Identity doesn't affect burning is that you're not drawing the Investiture of the metal itself, which is indeed keyed to the Spren or Honorblade, you're using the atomic structure of the metal itself to tell the Spiritual Realm what the Investiture you're going to be drawing will do. Steel tells the Spiritual Realm to make the Investiture show you the blue lines and Push on the metal you specify. Tin tells the SR to make the Investiture extend your senses. The actual Investiture of the Metal (and it's Identity) won't hinder you at all, as it doesn't factor into what you're doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: SA: Hide contents That's a very good point I've never considered. Not connection but Identity preventing this. Interesting take. It's very likely that this would be a factor. However the WoB said it would be like burning a very pure form of a god metal, which I don't think suggests that Identity would matter in the case of Tanavastium. Still, it's worth considering. Hide contents NeedsToShutUp What would happen if Hoid tried to burn the shard that came off Ishar's Honorblade? Brandon Sanderson If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it, it would act like burning... You would be burning a very pure form of a God Metal, and those have some very interesting effects. RAFO. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Notice the wording in WoB "If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it", the if clause includes burn it, so that does not preclude the Identity limitation I outlined. 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The God Metal itself could be burnable if you get the right Connection, but Identity won't stop you from burning the metal once you did. The reason Identity doesn't affect burning is that you're not drawing the Investiture of the metal itself, which is indeed keyed to the Spren or Honorblade, you're using the atomic structure of the metal itself to tell the Spiritual Realm what the Investiture you're going to be drawing will do. Steel tells the Spiritual Realm to make the Investiture show you the blue lines and Push on the metal you specify. Tin tells the SR to make the Investiture extend your senses. The actual Investiture of the Metal (and it's Identity) won't hinder you at all, as it doesn't factor into what you're doing. Except in this case the godmetal itself is coded to certain Identity, not just Investiture stored in the metal. And if Identity stops you from using burning to take advantage of foreign Investiture, then Identity of the godmetal should preclude you from burning it because it is the Investiture itself that is coded. Just like in metalmind where you simply cannot draw upon Investiture that is not coded to you. And burning godmetals does not draw Investiture from SR like you imply, but uses the physical Investiture directly, so that argument is flawed. Edited May 31, 2023 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted May 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 I agree with @alder24’s point on intent matters, and the scene with the BoM is pretty solid evidence. However, what of Elend within the WoA? He burned lerasium without knowing what it was, and then subconsciously burned pewter. Now, you can explain away the burned pewter with the whole “subconscious intent” thing that Brandon mentioned here. Quote Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Spoiler Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight , and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Could that apply to Elend burning Lerasium? Maybe?? But I feel that if that was the case, Wax should be able use the bands from subconscious intent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Koloss17 said: I agree with @alder24’s point on intent matters, and the scene with the BoM is pretty solid evidence. However, what of Elend within the WoA? He burned lerasium without knowing what it was, and then subconsciously burned pewter. Now, you can explain away the burned pewter with the whole “subconscious intent” thing that Brandon mentioned here. Could that apply to Elend burning Lerasium? Maybe?? But I feel that if that was the case, Wax should be able use the bands from subconscious intent. That's a good WoB. With the body's intent to survive? Yes, it would work. Elend was conscious at that moment, he said "Vin" right before Vin gave him the band, and even "nod his head" when she told him to swallow. But the effects of pewter didn't show up on his face until Elend closed his eyes - that's likely when he started to subconsciously burn Lerasium and pewter as his body intent to survive took over and he burned those metals after he finally lost his consciousness (I don't have WoA in English to quote but that's precisely how it happened). Or Elend burned Lerasium while still being conscious, because he know there was a piece of metal there, he saw the Mistspirit showing it to Vin, Vin trying to swallow it, and he saw the spirit pointing toward Elend - and he just logically concluded he need to burn it, but didn't realized it made him into a Mistborn. But I think Elend burning it subconsciously is a more likely option. And Wax consciously drew from the Bands, after Marasi gave them to him - his mind was very active and in control, because Harmony kept his mind conscious the whole time. He already knew what the spearhead was (he heard Marasi talking and he figured it out right before his death) and knew he could heal by using them. Before that none of the people touching the Bands were in a dire need of survival for that intent to show up. BoM ch 28: Quote Harmony held up His left hand, and Wax heard something. A voice? “Wax?” it said. Yes, a frantic voice. Feminine. “Wax, you have to know what it does. It will heal you, Wax. Waxillium! Please…” [...] “Wax…” the voice said from below, choked with emotion. It belonged to Marasi. “You have to tap the metalmind.” [...] Wax seized the left hand with his own. He was immediately pulled toward something, like air being sucked through a hole. Warmth bathed him; then it became a fire. Pulling breath into his lungs, he screamed, heaving, throwing the boulder off. It clattered to the side, and he found himself in the lowroofed chamber beneath the temple. Such strength! He hadn’t thrown that rock with muscles, but with steel. His body reknit even as he launched himself to his feet by Pushing on tiny traces of metal in the ground beneath him. He landed and looked down at his left hand. The one that had been dangling, broken, before his face as he died. Clutched in it was an oversized spearhead crafted from sixteen different metals melded together. He looked up from it and toward Marasi, who regarded him with tearstained eyes, but a broad smile. Even Marasi said "you have to know what it does" Edit: sorry, we've hijacked your F-tin thread Edited May 31, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: There are no words in WoB that supports this. Brandon said "metalmind" you interpreting it as something different. You can also store Surgebinding and all invested arts in nicrosilmind, which is "anything" that Brandon was talking about. Even listening to that WoB Brandon didn't even stutter. If you suggest that a metalmind isn't a metalmind when Brandon is talking about it, then we can as well throw all WoBs into the trash, as none of them matter anymore, when you can interpret everything as you want. Primar Cubes are similar to metalminds, but aren't one. Their similarities don't make them metalminds. WoB is clearly talking about a metalmind. Period. I feel bad because it looks like you're getting upset over this. You haven't convinced me, but we can stop debating it if it brings you peace of mind. Quote Why not? Those metals are unavailable before proper metallurgic techniques are developed and the best technological advancement Spook had at that moment was a green grass. Just because he would know what those metals are, knows what those metals are doing in general, doesn't mean he wouldn't need to "poke around" and play with them to figure out what he can do with them, what is the use of those metals etc. Or maybe he wanted to encourage Spook to read all 80 tomes of books? I don't see this disproving my idea. And technically there were 4 metals unknown to anybody, as Nicrosil and Chromium were also unknown to be Allomantic metals. It doesn't disprove your idea outright, it's just self-contradictory. Why tell Spook what the metals are and do, then tell him to see if he can find out what they are and what they do? Quote Sazed message to Spook also said "I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing the bodies doesn't return the souls" giving the idea that he didn't know how to do that, but in SH it was revealed that they decided to go into the Beyond on their on and rejected Sazed proposal of going back. Yes, but... What does that have to do with the conversation? Quote With which I don't agree. Intent is always needed. Just like in Allomancy they need to search for metal reserves to burn them, in Feruchemy they need to search for proper attributes to store them. It just doesn't make sense to store "something" that you don't even know exists or what it is. See, the 'searching for a metal reserve' is a bit of a weak argument, since we have plenty of examples of metals being burned instinctively. Take a look at it this way. Each metal only does one thing. Vin doesn't know what Aluminum does, but all she has to do is burn it once it's force-fed to her and her metals vanish, no need to know what it does. Same thing with Feruchemy. Why do you need to specifically know what you want to store in that metal when the metal only stores one thing anyway? The metal's molecular structure is itself the key that determines what charge is stored, all you need to do is provide it. It's like having a bunch of keys, not knowing which one unlocks the lock, and until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock. It doesn't make sense. I posit that 'storing' is universal, just like 'burning' is, and it's the metal itself that determines the difference. You don't Intend to burn Brass any differently than Steel. It's not how you burn that makes the difference, but the metal being burned. I argue that it's the same for storing. Let's discuss Intent for a second. I see Intent as the sort of unconscious desire or awareness of what's going on/what you're hoping will happen that determines whether or not something can happen. Waxillium doesn't know that Unsealed Metalminds are a thing, and so he has no Intent related to them. This means that he doesn't even sense that the one he holds is Invested. Some Invested Arts require specific Intent, like Hemalurgy, Forgery, Awakening, etc. For example, the right metal could pierce someone in the right place, but that won't make it a Hemalurgic spike on its own. Allomancy, and as I'm suggesting, Feruchemy, don't require nearly quite so much Intent. Just the body's will to survive counts as enough Intent to trigger Allomancy subconsciously, and as I said earlier, once you know what Allomancy is, you don't need to know what a metal does to be able to burn it. Why should this not be the case with Feruchemy? With something like a Fullmind, I'd understand, since it can store so many different attributes, you'd need to single out a specific one that is also viable to be able to store it, but with the regular metals that only store a single type of charge anyway, I don't see why that should be the case. Quote Yes it would. Wax recognised copper which made him realize what it can do, Marasi saw 16 metals in a spearhead which made her realize what she can do with it. BoM epilogue: I don't think so. Wax realized it was an Unsealed Metalmind, and that's what allowed him to tap it. Marasi seeing more than one metal in the spearhead made her realize that the spearhead was the Bands of Mourning. The individual metals didn't give her a mental list of what he could and couldn't do, which she then referred to. Tapping from something like the Bands or a Fullmind would definitely require Intent since it contains more than one metal in it, but that shouldn't apply to a single Metalmind. Let's try a thought experiment. Say a Coinshot gets stabbed in the heart with a steel spike accidentally in a way that should steal Pewter Allomancy. If nobody there knows about Hemalurgy, the spike will pretty obviously remain a regular spike and nothing out of the ordinary would happen. Now, let's go over the same scenario, but the person who caused the accident was a Hemalurgist and Intended for a spike to be made. Again, obviously, a spike would be made. But what if the accident happens, and a random passerby who happens to be a Hemalurgist sees the whole thing happen, and recognizes even before the Coishot gets impaled that a spike would be made? He didn't have anything to do with the events, but he knows how to use Hemalurgy and knows that what happened should create a viable Hemalurgic spike. Is one made? Keep in mind while you think about this that SA Spoiler Navani determines that Intent is what makes the difference between Investiture and Anti-Investiture, and that her Intent of creating a plate that plays the Anti-Voidlight tone creates one that, even though it has no discernable difference from that of Voidlight's regular tone, still creates the Anti Tone, even when someone else plays it, even when she doesn't want someone else to find out about the plate's true purpose. And similarly, Ruin's Intention of creating a spike creates a spike in Spook even though he himself did not do anything. Quote Yes, you need to guess first what you can store in a Fullmind to store it. That's the first limitation. If it was like you suggest, a person using a Fullmind would be able to store everything there, not knowing what it is, hundreds of different attributes, and tap it all when needed, during fight etc. That would be extremely overpowered and unbalanced, too much. That can't be the case because it's against the idea of magic based on limitations. It's not about possibilities. Your idea give Fullmind too much power, while my limits it use and applicability, in some cases it would be wasteful to use Fullmind, which is fine, but in other cases it would be very useful to have. A Fullmind working like I propose isn't overly powerful and unbalanced. I'm not suggesting that they store and tap everything at once. What I had in mind was deciding on a specific alloy, say Atium-Cadmium, then storing in the Fullmind with the Intent of storing whatever attributes Atium-Cadmium stores, to see what changes would happen and work backward to figure out what the attribute is. it would take time to just intuit what the attribute is, and once you know what it is, it would require further testing to find the parameters of that attribute. Once you figure it out, Hooray! You now know what another metal does! You can then decide on another alloy, and repeat the process. This doesn't make the Fullmind any more powerful than it is with what you suggest, but it's infinitely more useful for research purposes. The only difference between my version and yours is that you could actually make scientific progress with the Fullmind, whereas in your version you'd just have to sit and around and wait to be told what a metal does, which doesn't change the status quo at all, since that's what we're already doing. And remember, even if you know every attribute and can store and tap everything as you suggest, you're still limited by the size of the Fullmind itself. I can't imagine you'd have more than one, maybe two, and both would be of modest size. In those two Metalminds, you'd have to pick from all of those attributes just a small handful that you can store in amounts that would actually be useful in a fight. Take one of the normal attributes, like health. It's insanely useful, but it won't help you much if you only have enough stored to heal a single bullet wound. Unless you're a Full Feruchemist, you could only use one of the regular 16 anyway, and you'd have to choose carefully between the one's you'd have discovered, the discovery of which alone is a time-consuming and menial in the first place. Quote Nobody except for Sazed knows this. And there are some quite heavy spoilers openly visible in your post there. Edit it please. This is Mistborn forum. Its entire purpose was so there would be someone to renew Ruin's prison and be there to take care of the world in Preservation's absence. Why would Sazed make a huge chunk of Preservation's power unavailable to himself, when its not even needed, and he already has a Perpendicularity in the South? Quote And again, it's fine that there are little to none people/Vessels who would know what unknown to public metals can store. That's fine. That's another limitation. And yes, as Harmony proved, they don't necessarily are aware of what all those metals can do. Which is again fine. The problem here is that there are too many limitations. A few make the novel interesting. This many would stagnate progress, which is crucial in a series where the core idea is watching the world and the magic evolved over 3 (now 4) eras. Cosmere spoilers Spoiler I forget that SA and Mistborn happen so close together. Rayse's death and the events on Scadrial are a coincidence though (so far as we know *cue Illuminati music*) and like I said, Preservation's successions happen so close together (and between people who personally knew each other) because of a very specific situation, so I lump it all into one. It's not like they were fighting each other in a free for all for the Shard, the original Vessel had been dying for centuries, and two of the people who Ascended only did it because they had no choice. Just for that, (and that it was all pre-planned by Leras) makes me want to count those as a single changing of hands from Leras to Sazed, just with intermediaries because of circumstances. Personally, Kelsier never would have Ascended if it hadn't been to prevent Preservation from being Splintered anyway, and he didn't Ascend properly regardless, so I don't count him at all even within the whole mess, but I'm just nitpicky that way. I do count Sazed's Ascension twice though, because that's two Shards. The OG Vessels just weren't having a good couple centuries around then O_o Quote And yet another WoB states it's very important that Atium and Malatium are on the opposite side of the table compared to gold and electrum. I would be very surprised if Malatium stored spiritual attributes out of nowhere, while everything else in that quadrant, including Atium, is physical. It's important because it was a hint that Atium and Malatium weren't the true external temporal metals. A physical metal doesn't have to be immediately obvious anyway. Cadmium stores breath, so maybe Malatium stored something like electrolyte or mineral levels in the body, something which Sazed would have no way of knowing. Thinking of it that way, maybe Sazed did manage to notice something, he just maybe didn't know enough to figure out what it was with the knowledge he had access to. And again, Atium alloys can't be thought of as setting any pattern, and we don't really have any proof that the sets of 16 made of God Metals follow the quadrant system, or even that they're evenly spread out in said quadrants. They could, sure, but there's just nothing outright saying it. All we have to go on is intuition here, and Brandon has explicitly said that a lot of things in the Cosmere are counter-intuitive. Quote Not random. 2 physical, 1 spiritual and 1 mental quadrants. You know more or less what to search for. But yes, lots of guessing is needed, which is good. That's doesn't narrow anything down at all, since any attributes you could possibly store would fall into one of those anyway. Quote Yeah, but in our world you don't need to have Intent to turn on the machine, while in Cosmere you need Intent to use everything. Spikes, metalmind, medallions, Breaths, Honorblades - everything works based on intent and without it you just can't use it. You can, actually. Some Invested Arts just require it to be more specific than others. Hemalurgy, Forgery, Aondor, ChayShan, Awakening, all need specific Intents. Things like Allomancy, Surgebinding, and if I'm right, Feruchmy, just require a basic level of it. Besides, once you get a good handle on the Theory of a magic system, you get better at doing things like reverse engineering and deduction. Allomancy is reactionary, has a Push for every Pull, so Vin automatically knows that's if Aluminum is Allomantically viable, it has to have an alloy; Whereby she begins commissioning a metallurgist to make alloys for her, finds the right one, then figures out exactly what it does through trial and error and applying it to different situations, which I what I propose should be possible with Feruchemy. Quote I can see it working more or less based on god metals used in that Fullmind. If it's made out of Lerasium/Atium, it can store all 16 based, Lerasium alloys, Atium alloys and Atium-Lerasium alloys. Add Trellium to that and it can store all those alloys with Trellium etc. Surely it must be more complicated than that? Quote SA: SA Spoiler Spren only bond people around other Radiants because they pay attention to existing bonds and happen upon someone they would consider bonding with, and Bridge Four happened because they became Kaladin's Squires, but I get what you mean. I don't think it would attract them per se, but more like it would be an attractive feature about a person once they already start considering them, but it's only a semantic difference so eh. Good point either way. Quote Pure god metal should be burnable by everyone, Honorblades should be, but Shardblades are alloys, they aren't pure and they would act like an alloy when burning it - that's why connection might be needed. My idea was to alloy a Shardblade with Lerasium to gain a permanent connection which would allow you to burn normal Shardblade whenever you want. Something I'm not getting here, why would Shardblades being alloys disrupt anything here? They're alloys with another God Metal, Koravellium, so I dont see how that changes things. Quote Except in this case the godmetal itself is coded to certain Identity, not just Investiture stored in the metal. And if Identity stops you from using burning to take advantage of foreign Investiture, then Identity of the godmetal should preclude you from burning it because it is the Investiture itself that is coded. Just like in metalmind or spike. The God Metal is Investiture (literally pure Honor-polarised Investiture in solid form), so it's the same effect either way. The point I'm making here is that Identity shouldn't affect burning in any way unless burning a God Metal specifically uses up the Investiture that the God Metal is made of. Quote And burning godmetals does not draw Investiture from SR like you imply, but uses the physical Investiture directly, so that argument is flawed. Doesn't it? Do you have a source for that one? I've always thought it's the metallic structure of the metal that caused the effect, like the normal metals Edited May 31, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted May 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 Hey @Underwater_Worldhopper, be wary of spoilers for Sormlight. While it isn’t plot, I still think speaking of the shards on Roshar and their nature still fits under spoilers for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 3 hours ago, alder24 said: All 10 Surges? Maybe? But again it's speculative if each Honorblade's metal is different in some way. WoB call it pure Tanavastium. The fact that he calls out it's pure makes it seem like there is something special about having a very pure form of God Metal. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Lifebending! Cultivation has her own magic system. I figured, but so far, do we know what it is? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Koravellium There was a WoB about Waxillium's god metal being called Waxillium. And it's beautiful. Koravellium it is! 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They didn't have clean Trellium. All Trellium they had was from spikes, which had a Hemalurgic charge. That would be like trying to burn someone else's metalmind. And what if burning that would connect you to Autonomy in a way you don't want to be connected? Wax was already unwilling to use Atium and Lerasium if he would be able to produce it, so why Trellium if he doesn't know what it does. But yes, it's weird that nobody tried this, but people on Scadrial still don't know that Atium in era 1 wasn't a pure god metal but an alloy, and they might believe that you need to be a Misting of that metal or Mistborn to be able to burn it. I don't think being a spike changes anything other than the "Weird effects" mentioned in that one WoB, and I don't know why people keep conflating burning spikes with burning Metalminds since we know exactly what burning a Metalmind does and that burning a spike would be different. You make a good point though, at this point in time the Scadrians just don't know the true nature of God metals. This has got me thinking though, Is there any way you could get rid of a Hemalurgic charge? My first thought was Anti Tones, but which Shard's Anti Tone do you use? There isn't any actual Ruin-polarised Investiture going on in Hemalurgy, so I doubt that would work. Also, how come Raysium never self-destructed while it was carrying Anti-Voidlight? Shouldn't that have caused it to immolate, given that it's solid Odium-polarised Investiture? 9 minutes ago, Koloss17 said: Hey @Underwater_Worldhopper, be wary of spoilers for Sormlight. While it isn’t plot, I still think speaking of the shards on Roshar and their nature still fits under spoilers for it. I'm eternally grateful for you guys, I'm so bad at keeping track of spoilers. Thanks again, I edited it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: But what if the accident happens, and a random passerby who happens to be a Hemalurgist sees the whole thing happen, and recognizes even before the Coishot gets impaled that a spike would be made? He didn't have anything to do with the events, but he knows how to use Hemalurgy and knows that what happened should create a viable Hemalurgic spike. Is one made? No, spike is not made. Intent has to be behind the actions, perception of the actions would be insufficient, because there is no intent there (capital or otherwise). Edit: The reason is that what is required to make viable spike is 3 things: 1) Spike 2) Victim 3) Intent . In the scenario you outlined there is only spike and victim, Intent is lacking. Quote The God Metal is Investiture (literally pure Honor-polarised Investiture in solid form), so it's the same effect either way. The point I'm making here is that Identity shouldn't affect burning in any way unless burning a God Metal specifically uses up the Investiture that the God Metal is made of. I am well aware that godmetal is physical Investiture, that is like half of my argument. But when burning godmetal, the power does come from the metal itself. Godemal is what directly fuels the power then, the entire ending of HoA literally hinged on this point when Seers burn away Atium to keep Ruin from getting his power back. If that was not the case, then Atium could not be used that way. Quote Doesn't it? Do you have a source for that one? I've always thought it's the metallic structure of the metal that caused the effect, like the normal metals Yes I do. One, ending of HoA would not make sense otherwise (wheter or not Atium there is alloy does not matter). Two, WoBs https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3658 , and WoB that Atium is directly the fuel (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8028) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Atium's Mechanism Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways. Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin. This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010) Logically, this would then hold also for other godmetals and their alloys. Hence, if the Investiture of godmetal is coded with Identity, it will be inaccessible just like metalmind stores of another Feruchemist. And there is also this WoB on burning (Warbreaker spoilers) Spoiler Awakened swords (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1829) which basically confirms that Identity does play a role Questioner What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal? Brandon Sanderson Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity. Footnote: followed-up by this Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) which basically confirms that Identity does play a role in whether or not Shardblades/Honorblades would be burnable. Edited May 31, 2023 by therunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, therunner said: No, spike is not made. Intent has to be behind the actions, perception of the actions would be insufficient, because there is no intent there (capital or otherwise). But Ruin's manipulations behind the scenes were enough to spike Spook with Pewter Allomancy, even though the person who actually did the spiking was not aware. I think a spike would be made. 11 minutes ago, therunner said: I am well aware that godmetal is physical Investiture, that is like half of my argument. My point only applies if Identity doesn't factor in, that's what I was trying to get across. 11 minutes ago, therunner said: But when burning godmetal, the power does come from the metal itself. Godemal is what directly fuels the power then, the entire ending of HoA literally hinged on this point when Seers burn away Atium to keep Ruin from getting his power back. If that was not the case, then Atium could not be used that way. I always interpreted that as the metal being used up as the gateway to the SR, but since the metal was actually Investiture itself (which can't be destroyed), it would be sent back to the Pits to be reformed, without having ever had any part in the Allomancy itself. I'm guessing now that case was instead that it fueled the Allomancy, then went to the Pits to be reformed, since Investiture can't really be destroyed: the closest it's ever gotten is Anti-Investiture, where it just turns into energy. So it goes to the Pits, because it wouldn't be destroyed and anything else would just mean the Investiture would go to Ruin and he could use it. 11 minutes ago, therunner said: Logically, this would then hold also for other godmetals and their alloys. Hence, if the Investiture of godmetal is coded with Identity, it will be inaccessible just like metalmind stores of another Feruchemist. And there is also this WoB on burning (Warbreaker spoilers) which basically confirms that Identity does play a role in whether or not Shardblades/Honorblades would be burnable. Well, shoot. I really didn't expect that one, that's some amazing analysis on your part. Identity would definitely block you from burning the Honorblades. I wonder if the Breaths weren't keyed to the Allomancer, would the metal act as a Metalmind and it would just burn regularly, and the Breaths are lost (maybe gained by the Allomancer), or if the Breath-imbued metal would just be impervious to burning as we see here? Also, @alder24, I found a WoB confirming that the Well no longer exists: Spoiler Dalenthas Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling... Brandon Sanderson The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I feel bad because it looks like you're getting upset over this. You haven't convinced me, but we can stop debating it if it brings you peace of mind. I'm not upset, I'm just stubborn 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It doesn't disprove your idea outright, it's just self-contradictory. Why tell Spook what the metals are and do, then tell him to see if he can find out what they are and what they do? I don't think it contradicts anything at all. It's a private letter to a friend, something less official, something that should stay between the two of them or other close friends - and in that Sazed told him Spook will have fun with those metals. For me it's a little wink to Spook suggesting he might find a good use of those metals - and he likely had found, after all he lived for more than 118 years, likely because of the cadmium bubble. Also Sazed said it because of storytelling. Brandon told it to us so we know there are more metals to be explored in next books. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Yes, but... What does that have to do with the conversation? Just to show that Sazed words in that letter aren't necessarily that reliable. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: See, the 'searching for a metal reserve' is a bit of a weak argument, since we have plenty of examples of metals being burned instinctively. Take a look at it this way. Each metal only does one thing. Vin doesn't know what Aluminum does, but all she has to do is burn it once it's force-fed to her and her metals vanish, no need to know what it does. Same thing with Feruchemy. Why do you need to specifically know what you want to store in that metal when the metal only stores one thing anyway? The metal's molecular structure is itself the key that determines what charge is stored, all you need to do is provide it. It's like having a bunch of keys, not knowing which one unlocks the lock, and until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock. It doesn't make sense. I posit that 'storing' is universal, just like 'burning' is, and it's the metal itself that determines the difference. You don't Intend to burn Brass any differently than Steel. It's not how you burn that makes the difference, but the metal being burned. I argue that it's the same for storing. Let's discuss Intent for a second. I see Intent as the sort of unconscious desire or awareness of what's going on/what you're hoping will happen that determines whether or not something can happen. Waxillium doesn't know that Unsealed Metalminds are a thing, and so he has no Intent related to them. This means that he doesn't even sense that the one he holds is Invested. Some Invested Arts require specific Intent, like Hemalurgy, Forgery, Awakening, etc. For example, the right metal could pierce someone in the right place, but that won't make it a Hemalurgic spike on its own. Allomancy, and as I'm suggesting, Feruchemy, don't require nearly quite so much Intent. Just the body's will to survive counts as enough Intent to trigger Allomancy subconsciously, and as I said earlier, once you know what Allomancy is, you don't need to know what a metal does to be able to burn it. Why should this not be the case with Feruchemy? With something like a Fullmind, I'd understand, since it can store so many different attributes, you'd need to single out a specific one that is also viable to be able to store it, but with the regular metals that only store a single type of charge anyway, I don't see why that should be the case. Allomancy is different from Feruchemy, in Allomancy the power is coming from outside, in Feruchemy it is coming from your own body. In Allomancy Vin doesn't need to know what aluminum does, she feels the reserve when she searches for it and burns that - the power was drawn in from SR and filtered through the metal giving it a shape. In Feruchemy you need to FIND that reserve in your own body, which isn't shaped by a metalmind. You need to know what to put it there to do that. And that attribute isn't a metal, nor investiture - it's a part of your body. It's the other way around. When you tap a metalmind, you might be able to tap it not knowing what is inside - I give you that, there is a possibility of this happening, as long as you know it's a metalmind (but BoM is showing the opposite). That's because a Feruchemist feels investiture is inside that metalmind, and can draw that in. But when storing there isn't anything noticeable in your body that tells you that you can store it in a metalmind. Nothing is felt by them. No warmth, no fire, no reserve of investiture. Nothing. There isn't anything indicating that you can store something in a metalmind, and that's where the Intent plays a huge role - you're telling your own body which attribute to push into a metalmind. And for that you need to know this. Just telling your body to store something won't work because what is that something? Your key analogy is a good one, but for me. NOBODY needs to tell you which key will unlock the door - you know what shape everykey has, and you can just keep trying until you find the right one. You know that the attribute must come from your body, just keep guessing what can be an attribute and you'll eventually guess correctly. Nobody needs to tell you which attribute to store. You need to guess, that will provide the right intent, and if you guessed correctly, you will be able to store that. I don't know where this: "until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock" came from. I've never said anything like that. It's either guessing, which isn't perfect and requires some imagination, or ask a landlord (a Shard) to tell you which key is the right one. Multiple options. Your idea on the other hand is like throwing a bunch of keys at the doors and hoping one of them will perfectly land in a keyhole, and that will be also the correct key. Subconscious intent was argued by me with Koloss. Your body's intent to survive is enough to burn metals like pewter. Can your body do the same with a goldmind? Tap subconsciously a gold mind in a life or death situation not knowing it's a gold mind? Possibly, as your body will be reaching out in search of investiture and it will find it in that goldmind. But storing something won't work, as there is nothing indicating in you body that there is something that you can store - no reserve, no warmth, no investiture in your body is felt - as that isn't investiture yet. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I don't think so. Wax realized it was an Unsealed Metalmind, and that's what allowed him to tap it. Yes but he realized that after noticing it's both nicrosil and copper. He didn't felt an investiture after just noticing nicrosil, but after noticing there is copper too. That was the order in which this happened. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Let's try a thought experiment. Say a Coinshot gets stabbed in the heart with a steel spike accidentally in a way that should steal Pewter Allomancy. If nobody there knows about Hemalurgy, the spike will pretty obviously remain a regular spike and nothing out of the ordinary would happen. Now, let's go over the same scenario, but the person who caused the accident was a Hemalurgist and Intended for a spike to be made. Again, obviously, a spike would be made. But what if the accident happens, and a random passerby who happens to be a Hemalurgist sees the whole thing happen, and recognizes even before the Coishot gets impaled that a spike would be made? He didn't have anything to do with the events, but he knows how to use Hemalurgy and knows that what happened should create a viable Hemalurgic spike. Is one made? What does this have to do with anything we're talking about? It's unlikely that just a random passerby will influence accidental spiking in such a way to create a Hemalurgic spike - he didn't do the spiking and he isn't Ruin who has far more power than a random dude. And stealing A-pewter from a coinshot won't work - he doesn't have A-pewter. Which begs the question what would happen? Would you still tear off a part of a soul but with nothing useful there? Or nothing will happen and no spike would be created? We know a wrong binding spot might result in stealing a wrong power (even with correct intent), so will wrong intent steal something wrongly too? I think I should steal something. Spoiler Questioner My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal? Brandon Sanderson So you want to place the spike in a specific place. Questioner In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor. Brandon Sanderson In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it. Questioner You risk stealing the wrong thing. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that? Questioner Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power. Brandon Sanderson Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike. Questioner So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately-- Brandon Sanderson What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want. Questioner And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it? Brandon Sanderson No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: 'm not suggesting that they store and tap everything at once. What I had in mind was deciding on a specific alloy, say Atium-Cadmium, then storing in the Fullmind with the Intent of storing whatever attributes Atium-Cadmium stores, to see what changes would happen and work backward to figure out what the attribute is. it would take time to just intuit what the attribute is, and once you know what it is, it would require further testing to find the parameters of that attribute. Once you figure it out, Hooray! You now know what another metal does! You can then decide on another alloy, and repeat the process. This doesn't make the Fullmind any more powerful than it is with what you suggest, but it's infinitely more useful for research purposes. I really can't see that working. For me it's illogical as there is nothing telling you what to store. Without this you don't know what to push into a metalmind. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The only difference between my version and yours is that you could actually make scientific progress with the Fullmind, whereas in your version you'd just have to sit and around and wait to be told what a metal does, Again, where did this come from? I've never said you always need to be told what to store. I said that you can guess, or be told by someone like a Shard/Sliver. But you can do it without them, just keep guessing and you will eventually find a new attribute. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: And remember, even if you know every attribute and can store and tap everything as you suggest, you're still limited by the size of the Fullmind itself. I can't imagine you'd have more than one, maybe two, and both would be of modest size. In those two Metalminds, you'd have to pick from all of those attributes just a small handful that you can store in amounts that would actually be useful in a fight. Oh yes, I fully remember that. Size is another limiting factor - that's why I said in some cases using a Fullmind is wasteful. But we don't know how much you can fit into a metalmind, taking the Bands as an example, you can store a looooot there, and those are a very small sized metalmind compared to the amount of attributes stored inside. We've done some math on that on the forum somewhere. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Its entire purpose was so there would be someone to renew Ruin's prison and be there to take care of the world in Preservation's absence. Why would Sazed make a huge chunk of Preservation's power unavailable to himself, when its not even needed, and he already has a Perpendicularity in the South? Yes, that's reasonable. But as I said, only Sazed knows that for sure. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Personally, Kelsier never would have Ascended if it hadn't been to prevent Preservation from being Splintered anyway, and he didn't Ascend properly regardless, so I don't count him at all even within the whole mess, but I'm just nitpicky that way. I do count Sazed's Ascension twice though, because that's two Shards. Kelsier's Ascention might have been a part of Preservation's original plan. So it should be counted. It also showed us that you can force a Shard onto yourself, which opens a lot of possibilities. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Something I'm not getting here, why would Shardblades being alloys disrupt anything here? They're alloys with another God Metal, Koravellium, so I dont see how that changes things. Alloys aren't pure. Iron is pure, carbon is pure, together they form steel, which is a combination of those two, not pure. Even if that alloy is made out of 2 god metals, they don't make it pure. That's what Brandon said "it will act like an alloy of Honor's god metal". And we know Atium isn't burnable by everybody. Only specific Mistings can burn Atium alloys. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The God Metal is Investiture (literally pure Honor-polarised Investiture in solid form), so it's the same effect either way. The point I'm making here is that Identity shouldn't affect burning in any way unless burning a God Metal specifically uses up the Investiture that the God Metal is made of. There is a difference, god metal is the fuel, and it's all keyed to a specific identity. I see that can prevent you from burning it at all, as there is no part of that god metal which doesn't have identity. Metalminds store Investiture keyed to an identity, god metals are investiture. You burn the investiture, it is released. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Doesn't it? Do you have a source for that one? I've always thought it's the metallic structure of the metal that caused the effect, like the normal metals God metals are different, they're the fuel in the purest form: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Atium's Mechanism Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways. Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin. This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010) 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I figured, but so far, do we know what it is? No idea. Whatever Lift does? Or Nightwatcher? We don't know yet. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I don't think being a spike changes anything other than the "Weird effects" mentioned in that one WoB, and I don't know why people keep conflating burning spikes with burning Metalminds since we know exactly what burning a Metalmind does and that burning a spike would be different. Yeah, I didn't make it clear enough - you can burn an invested metalmind just like a normal metal. That's what Vin did in TFE with Sazed metalmind. And that's likely what Inquisitors were doing when trying to figure out compounding. I was more or less thinking about "this spike killed somebody, someone innocent, I don't want to use it, it has blood on it" - that's how Wax reacted to his own Pathian spike when talking to Harmony in SoS. It having a hemalurgic charge might change something too - spikes are different from metalminds. A bit. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: You make a good point though, at this point in time the Scadrians just don't know the true nature of God metals. This has got me thinking though, Is there any way you could get rid of a Hemalurgic charge? My first thought was Anti Tones, but which Shard's Anti Tone do you use? There isn't any actual Ruin-polarised Investiture going on in Hemalurgy, so I doubt that would work. Hmm. SA: Spoiler Anti Ruin tone might work - but not by annihilating investiture, but rather by pushing investiture out of the spike. It would be like transfering Stormlight between gems - both gems and spikes leeks investiture, you need to push it out either by playing corresponding tone and luring it into another spike, or its anti tone. But it has to be more precise than Ruin anti tone, you need to have the tone of the power inside the spike, each power gives a different tone, that's what Seekers hear - you need to tune in Allomantic steel inside a Hemalurgic spike to lure it out into a different spike, or anti tone of that to push it out. But that's easier said than done. I think it would be far harder to do than in the case of Stormlight. Spikes contain a fragment of a soul that might be too attached to the spike for you to push it out, even with right tone. 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler Also, how come Raysium never self-destructed while it was carrying Anti-Voidlight? Shouldn't that have caused it to immolate, given that it's solid Odium-polarised Investiture? SA: Spoiler It is too concentrated? I don't know. Maybe it's an alloy as some silvery metal was there too? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: But Ruin's manipulations behind the scenes were enough to spike Spook with Pewter Allomancy, even though the person who actually did the spiking was not aware. I think a spike would be made. Spike would not be made, there is no Intent happening in the scenario you outlined. In the Spook case, Ruin supplied Intent, because it got actively involved in manipulating the person and making him spike Spook. Intent is always needed (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e209). In your scenario, that would be equal to that 'observer' somehow manipulating and forcing the first person to spike the second person. But if they just happen to see it, Intent is simply not there. 8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Well, shoot. I really didn't expect that one, that's some amazing analysis on your part. Identity would definitely block you from burning the Honorblades. I wonder if the Breaths weren't keyed to the Allomancer, would the metal act as a Metalmind and it would just burn regularly, and the Breaths are lost (maybe gained by the Allomancer), or if the Breath-imbued metal would just be impervious to burning as we see here? Thank you Regarding Warbreaker spoilers Spoiler I think if it would be Invested only a little, it would be burnable as metatmind and Breaths would be lost/released. But if it was Invested enough (or possibly Awakenening it would be sufficient), you could no longer burn it at all, either because there is too much Investiture and Investiture resists Investiture (so it would resist whather is making Allomancers burn the metals), or because (due to Awakening) it would no longer be 'just' Invested metal, but body of some semi-sapient entity. Incidentally, I would expect that full metalminds would also be more difficult to burn, even if not impossible, due to same principle (Investiture resists Investiture). Edited June 1, 2023 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, alder24 said: I'm not upset, I'm just stubborn Same here :sobbing: Quote I don't think it contradicts anything at all. It's a private letter to a friend, something less official, something that should stay between the two of them or other close friends - and in that Sazed told him Spook will have fun with those metals. For me it's a little wink to Spook suggesting he might find a good use of those metals - and he likely had found, after all he lived for more than 118 years, likely because of the cadmium bubble. In that case, I concede. What you're saying is totally possible. Quote Also Sazed said it because of storytelling. Brandon told it to us so we know there are more metals to be explored in next books. Meta reasons convoluting character motivations always throws me for a loop ;-; Quote Just to show that Sazed words in that letter aren't necessarily that reliable. Good point. Quote Allomancy is different from Feruchemy, in Allomancy the power is coming from outside, in Feruchemy it is coming from your own body. In Allomancy Vin doesn't need to know what aluminum does, she feels the reserve when she searches for it and burns that - the power was drawn in from SR and filtered through the metal giving it a shape. In Feruchemy you need to FIND that reserve in your own body, which isn't shaped by a metalmind. Let's ignore God metals for a moment. Yes, Allomancy is different in regards to the origin of the power, but the main link I'm making is that storing may be like burning, where you don't need to have a specific Intent for what exactly needs to happen. One action made by you, where the result is determined by what you're performing the action on (the metal). A Full Feruchemist has 16 keys. When they store something, all of those keys are simultaneously applied to the 'lock', but only one actually unlocks the metaphorical lock, and that determines what charge is able to go through and charge the metal. Keys may not be the best metaphor for what I'm trying to convey since you can only ever fit one key into a lock at a time. How about this: Let's say (disregarding real-world chemistry for a moment) you have a solution of water, salt, and sugar. If you run the solution through Filter #1, only water and sugar will be allowed through, and salt will be left behind. If you use Filter #2, only water and salt are let through, and sugar is left behind. This is my model of Feruchemy (let's call it the Filter Model), where storing something (the analog for pouring) isn't different in any of the 16 different cases, and it's the in-built filter in the metal which automatically lets only the specific attribute through. You have a solution of 16 different solutes in water, each of which will only have one corresponding filter, and when you pour the solution into a given filter, it's not the pouring making a difference, but the filter. Quote You need to know what to put it there to do that. And that attribute isn't a metal, nor investiture - it's a part of your body. It's the other way around. When you tap a metalmind, you might be able to tap it not knowing what is inside - I give you that, there is a possibility of this happening, as long as you know it's a metalmind (but BoM is showing the opposite). That's because a Feruchemist feels investiture is inside that metalmind, and can draw that in. But when storing there isn't anything noticeable in your body that tells you that you can store it in a metalmind. Nothing is felt by them. No warmth, no fire, no reserve of investiture. Nothing. There isn't anything indicating that you can store something in a metalmind, and that's where the Intent plays a huge role - you're telling your own body which attribute to push into a metalmind. And for that you need to know this. Just telling your body to store something won't work because what is that something? This is the difference between how I think of it and how you think of it. I think of it as the Filtration Model, where you have one solution of 16 specific solutes, and you pour that into the filtered container, where the filter lets the right one in. You're thinking of it this way: Instead of a solution with 16 pre-determined solutes in it, you have to choose which solute you put in the water first, then pour that solution with only the single solute in. Let's call this the Pre-preparation Model. If this is indeed how Feruchemy works, then you would be right and you would need specific Intent to first separate the attribute you want to store in your mind, then store it. My question is this: If only one solute can go through a given filter, and there are only 16 specific solutes in the first place, what's the need for choosing one solute, putting it and only it into the water, then pouring that specific solution, when you could just have one solution with all 16 solutes in it, and pour that one into however many different filters you want, knowing you'll get the same result as picking the specific solute first? The Pre-preparation Model completely ignores the metal's in-built filtering properties. For something like the Fullmind, I could see where your argument would work. The Fullmind wouldn't have a filter beyond only letting in viable attributes, so how does it know what to store? That's where you would need to decide which specific attribute you want to store. That's where you would need Intent. But when every other metal only allows for a single attribute anyway, why the need to choose the attribute first? Just as Brass and Steel would burn the same but produce different effects based on the molecular structure of the metal, storing would be the same, and the metal's structure determines what's let in. Quote Your key analogy is a good one, but for me. NOBODY needs to tell you which key will unlock the door - you know what shape everykey has, and you can just keep trying until you find the right one. You know that the attribute must come from your body, just keep guessing what can be an attribute and you'll eventually guess correctly. Nobody needs to tell you which attribute to store. You need to guess, that will provide the right intent, and if you guessed correctly, you will be able to store that. I don't know where this: "until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock" came from. I've never said anything like that. It's either guessing, which isn't perfect and requires some imagination, or ask a landlord (a Shard) to tell you which key is the right one. Multiple options. How would a regular person make contact with a Shard, though? That would tell you what stores what, sure, but realistically only specific people can communicate with the Shards, and the Shards aren't likely to tell you. Harmony's already seen the effects of pampering humanity, I doubt he'd just give them answers anymore. It's theoretically possible, but practically impossible. As for the whole guessing thing, I get the premise of what you mean, and if Feruchemy works through the Pre-preparation Model then that would indeed be the ideal way to find new attributes and stuff. But the thing is, an attribute could be anything. You could store anything from how well your organs function to how flexible you are to whether or not you're constipated. It's an unending list where you don't know whether the attribute you've come up with is simply not viable or if you're just trying to store it in the wrong metal. And there are a lot of metals, so you'd have to make a list of different alloys, then come up with an attribute and test that on each and every single alloy, over and over and over again. With something like a Fullmind, that would honestly just take ages. It's not quite as futile as I originally thought, but it would still be incredibly difficult and I can't imagine it working more than once or twice, and that's if you're insanely lucky. It would just be easier in every single way for Feruchemy to work through something like the Filtration Model, where you can store and tap once you have a metal (or the Fullmind, with the Intent of using it to store as if it were that metal). The "until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock" bit was me saying that if Feruchemy works through the Filtration Model, you'd already have the right 'solute' (the attribute) in you, as well as a filter that filters everything but that specific solute (the metal), so if at that point specific Intent was required, it would be like the right key not opening the lock until you know that it's the right key, which can't happen until you use it to open the lock, and you just end up stuck in a paradox where the only way out is for a Shard to tell you which key is the right one, which as I've mentioned is very unlikely. Quote Your idea on the other hand is like throwing a bunch of keys at the doors and hoping one of them will perfectly land in a keyhole, and that will be also the correct key. But Feruchemy isn't nearly so specific; you don't need to insert a small object in a small opening, you just need to be touching a metal and want to store something in it. That's why I switched to the Filter and Solute metaphor since I'd imagined the key metaphor as fitting all the keys into the lock simultaneously (since Investiture is formless) with only one of them working, but in hindsight, that wouldn't be intuitively obvious, which is, again, why I've now switched to the Filter and Solute analog. Quote Subconscious intent was argued by me with Koloss. Your body's intent to survive is enough to burn metals like pewter. Can your body do the same with a goldmind? Tap subconsciously a gold mind in a life or death situation not knowing it's a gold mind? Possibly, as your body will be reaching out in search of investiture and it will find it in that goldmind. But storing something won't work, as there is nothing indicating in you body that there is something that you can store - no reserve, no warmth, no investiture in your body is felt - as that isn't investiture yet. You're right, of course. That's just not the point I'm making. What I was saying was that Allomancy doesn't require specific Intent like other Invested Arts; In some cases, just the will to survive is enough to trigger burning. I was comparing that low level of required Intent to Feruchemy. Obviously, Feruchemy needs more Intent that Allomancy. As you said, being unconscious or injured might be enough to induce you to tap a Metalmind, but not much beyond that. You need to understand storing and tapping on at least a subconscious level to use Feruchemy. But I don't think it requires the specificity of Intent to the extent you're suggesting. It makes a nice pattern in the Metallic Arts, too. Allomancy is end-positive, and requires little Intent, at least not to use it at the basic level. Feruchemy is end-neutral and requires a fair bit of Intent since you need to actively know what you're doing and want to store or tap. I don't see how you could figure out Feruchemy accidentally like you could Allomancy. Hemalurgy is end-negative and requires a lot of precision and Intent. There are reasons for the level of Intent required, I think. Allomancy draws the power externally but from within yourself, by swallowing metal and using it as a conduit, and it doesn't require finesse, so it can be easy to use subconsciously. Feruchemy on the other hand draws power from you yourself, so you need to have enough conscious awareness of it that you can purposefully store and tap it, not to mention you need to have the metals on you to do it. Hemalurgy is entirely external and requires ripping a chunk of someone's soul off by impaling them, then impaling yourself with said stolen soul fragment. Since the soul is complicated and different parts of it do different things, you need to be very careful and exact with it, which is why it requires very specific Intent. Quote Yes but he realized that after noticing it's both nicrosil and copper. He didn't felt an investiture after just noticing nicrosil, but after noticing there is copper too. That was the order in which this happened. It's possible, but I think that it's just worded that way to let the reader catch onto what it is; Nicrosil to make them realize it's a Medallion, then Copper to work out that it's a Coppermind, whereupon Wax begins seeing the memory. I think it may be less a showing of how Intent works in relation to Medallions and more just a structure device to make sure the readers aren't confused. Quote What does this have to do with anything we're talking about? I'm hurt, Alder. Surely you've known me long enough by now to know that I drop everything to discuss something that catches my fancy Quote It's unlikely that just a random passerby will influence accidental spiking in such a way to create a Hemalurgic spike - he didn't do the spiking and he isn't Ruin who has far more power than a random dude. Ruin being powerful doesn't make a difference, I don't think. Hemalurgy doesn't make use of Ruin's Investiture, it just steals someone else's. Ruin's power is that he commands an unthinkable amount of Investiture. If Hemalurgy worked by way of Ruin's Investiture, he could totally jackknife the system that way, but it doesn't. Beyond having a perfect and intrinsic knowledge of bind points and such, Ruin can't influence Hemalurgy. His only intervention in this situation was indirect, but somehow, that was enough. I have more to say about this, it'll be lower down, near the end of this post. Quote And stealing A-pewter from a coinshot won't work - he doesn't have A-pewter. Which begs the question what would happen? Would you still tear off a part of a soul but with nothing useful there? Or nothing will happen and no spike would be created? We know a wrong binding spot might result in stealing a wrong power (even with correct intent), so will wrong intent steal something wrongly too? I think I should steal something. That's just me being very, very stupid. When I wrote that originally, I had meant to say steal something from a guy, and I landed on A-Pewter. Except I hadn't specified the person was a Misting, so after writing it out I went back and changed it from just some random person to a Misting; only, I forgot that I'd specified A-Pewter, and instead called the person a Coinshot. Silly mistake on my part, The real question was what would happen if the Hemalurgist passerby witnessed a Coinshot being accidentally spiked for his A-Steel. Again, I say more about this specific situation down below. As for what would happen if you tried to steal the wrong thing, Stell and Pewter have very close (maybe even the same) stealing point, so I think you'd end up with A-Steel despite the Intent being for A-Pewter. If not, you'd end up with a soul fragment in the spike that does nothing, or stole some attribute from the dead guy, depending on where exactly you stabbed the Coinshot. Quote I really can't see that working. For me it's illogical as there is nothing telling you what to store. Without this you don't know what to push into a metalmind. The metal itself (ignoring the Fullmind) only accepts one attribute. It knows what can be put inside. Again with the Filtration Model, storing would just try to press all attributes against the metal at once, and only the right one goes in. Quote Oh yes, I fully remember that. Size is another limiting factor - that's why I said in some cases using a Fullmind is wasteful. But we don't know how much you can fit into a metalmind, taking the Bands as an example, you can store a looooot there, and those are a very small sized metalmind compared to the amount of attributes stored inside. We've done some math on that on the forum somewhere. Fair, but the Bands ran out pretty quickly given how we see the characters use it, so there can't have been too much in there. I will admit, my real interest in the Fullmind was more for researching new metals, I didn't give the combat aspect much thought. Quote Kelsier's Ascention might have been a part of Preservation's original plan. So it should be counted. It also showed us that you can force a Shard onto yourself, which opens a lot of possibilities. Through Connection juice, or whatever we call it. Haven't done much research into the orb. Hmmmm.... Quote Alloys aren't pure. Iron is pure, carbon is pure, together they form steel, which is a combination of those two, not pure. Even if that alloy is made out of 2 god metals, they don't make it pure. That's what Brandon said "it will act like an alloy of Honor's god metal". And we know Atium isn't burnable by everybody. Only specific Mistings can burn Atium alloys. Yes but Atium is alloyed with regular old Electrum, which is assumedly what's locking the 'anybody can burn it' aspect. If you alloy it with another God Metal, I don't really see why it shouldn't be counted as pure enough to be burned. Quote There is a difference, god metal is the fuel, and it's all keyed to a specific identity. I see that can prevent you from burning it at all, as there is no part of that god metal which doesn't have identity. Metalminds store Investiture keyed to an identity, god metals are investiture. You burn the investiture, it is released. God metals are different, they're the fuel in the purest form: I get that bit now, @therunner explained it quite well. Quote No idea. Whatever Lift does? Or Nightwatcher? We don't know yet. The only special thing about Lift is that she metabolizes food into Lifelight. God Beyond help us if Lift gets her hands on a Compounded to the brim Bendalloy Medallion. And the Nightwatcher is just a Spren, the whole Boon/Curse thing doesn't seem like an outright magic system, at least from what we've seen of it. Still, I'm looking forward to more Cultivation content. Theoretically, there should be 7 different magic systems on Roshar: One for Honor, one for Odium, and one for Cultivation, then one that's a balance between Odium and Honor, one that's a balance between Honor and Cultivation, one that's a balance between Cultivation and Odium, and one that's a balance between all three. Quote Yeah, I didn't make it clear enough - you can burn an invested metalmind just like a normal metal. That's what Vin did in TFE with Sazed metalmind. And that's likely what Inquisitors were doing when trying to figure out compounding. I was more or less thinking about "this spike killed somebody, someone innocent, I don't want to use it, it has blood on it" - that's how Wax reacted to his own Pathian spike when talking to Harmony in SoS. It having a hemalurgic charge might change something too - spikes are different from metalminds. A bit. They're quite different, given that that burning them seems to have an effect regardless of whether the Identity matches. Quote Hmm. SA: Hide contents Anti Ruin tone might work - but not by annihilating investiture, but rather by pushing investiture out of the spike. It would be like transfering Stormlight between gems - both gems and spikes leeks investiture, you need to push it out either by playing corresponding tone and luring it into another spike, or its anti tone. But it has to be more precise than Ruin anti tone, you need to have the tone of the power inside the spike, each power gives a different tone, that's what Seekers hear - you need to tune in Allomantic steel inside a Hemalurgic spike to lure it out into a different spike, or anti tone of that to push it out. But that's easier said than done. I think it would be far harder to do than in the case of Stormlight. Spikes contain a fragment of a soul that might be too attached to the spike for you to push it out, even with right tone. SA Spoiler Ruin's Investiture isn't playing a part in Hemalurgy though, not even in a passive way that's keeping the soul there. I think your other idea of an Anti-Tone specific to the power in the spike could work, but which Shard would that be based off of? Preservation? The difference between the powers may not be in Tone, but rather rhythm. Allomancy would be Preservation's Tone, played in a specific Rhythm. So maybe all you need to do is find a way to replicate the pulsing that Seekers hear, then invert it through Intent. I could see that working. But what about Feruchemy? I have a headcanon that the reason Feruchemy is hard to hear with Bronze is not because it's faint, but because it's more like a Tone than the rhythms Seekers are used to hearing. Because we know Inquisitors spent a lot of effort trying to figure out a way to detect Feruchemy, maybe while they were all looking so something like deep thumping, Feruchemy in use would actually make a noise more akin to high pitched ringing. I don't have any evidence for it, but if that's the case, the 'sound' of Feruchemy would be the Harmony between Ruin and Preservation's Tone, played at different pitches. There's only 12 pitches in a given octave, but like how Trellium's signature literally goes off the charts on a spectrometer, and Navani observes that Lights have a wider band of certain colours in the rainbows they produce, It's possible there could be some Cosmere weirdness that could somehow create the 4 other pitches needed for the full 16 variations needed. Inverting those could get rid of Feruchemy in a spike. But what if you just have an attribute in the spike, like strength? How would you remove that? Could you make a Tone that shunts your soul aside? What Shard would your soul be polarised to, given that souls are made of Investiture? As a footnote, given how hard it it to imbue metal with Breath, I don't think a soul would stick to a spike so much that you couldn't remove it. What do you think happens if you use Raysium to transfer the soul fragment into a Polestone? Given what happened to Jezrien, I think the soul would just fade off into the Beyond. So that's one way to get rid of a Hemalurgic charge. Quote SA: Hide contents It is too concentrated? I don't know. Maybe it's an alloy as some silvery metal was there too? Spoiler I doubt it was an alloy, just a strip of Raysium set into a dagger. Maybe Voidlight (and by extension Anti-Voidlight) isn't pure Odious Investiture but changed somehow. That or Raysium's structure as a metal would require Anti-Voidlight in physical form (Anti-Raysium?) and be made to touch before they destroy one another. 9 hours ago, therunner said: Spike would not be made, there is no Intent happening in the scenario you outlined. In the Spook case, Ruin supplied Intent, because it got actively involved in manipulating the person and making him spike Spook. Intent is always needed (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e209). In your scenario, that would be equal to that 'observer' somehow manipulating and forcing the first person to spike the second person. But if they just happen to see it, Intent is simply not there. I don't think Intent requires you to physically be the one driving the action. That was the case with Ruin, but it might not be the only way. We see from Unsealed/Unkeyed Metalminds that even if you don't want to use the Metalmind, you need to know what it is to be able to sense the Investiture in there. Brandon's answer as to why you need to realize its nature first is Intent, so at some level, awareness is an aspect of Intent, or Intent somehow is awareness or leads to it. We see in (SA) Spoiler that the only difference between a Pure Tone and it's negative counterpart is the Intent of the person who's making it. When Navani makes the plate that plays the Anti-Voidlight tone, the only difference there should be her Intent. Yet, when Raboniel plays the plate, it still plays the Anti-Voidlight tone instead of the regular Voidlight tone, despite her lacking the Intent. Navani's presence and awareness of the nature of the plate, even though she's not the one playing it and doesn't want Raboniel to find out, still somehow causes the plate to produce the Anti-Voidlight Tone. If you still don't think the presence of a Hemalurgist who witnesses the accident happening and understands a spike should have been made should make a spike, fair enough. But what if the Hemalurgist was there the whole time, anticipates what's about to happen, and wants a spike to be made, even though he has absolutely no hand in how or why the Coinshot gets impaled, would a spike be made? Quote Thank you It really was very clever. You took disparate, seemingly unimportant WoBs and somehow put together a whole argument that was wholly sound. Takes out-of-the-box thinking, I'm genuinely impressed. @alder24, watch out, you have competition Quote Regarding Warbreaker spoilers Hide contents I think if it would be Invested only a little, it would be burnable as metatmind and Breaths would be lost/released. But if it was Invested enough (or possibly Awakenening it would be sufficient), you could no longer burn it at all, either because there is too much Investiture and Investiture resists Investiture (so it would resist whather is making Allomancers burn the metals), or because (due to Awakening) it would no longer be 'just' Invested metal, but body of some semi-sapient entity. Incidentally, I would expect that full metalminds would also be more difficult to burn, even if not impossible, due to same principle (Investiture resists Investiture). Spoiler Technically we see Compounders burn Metalminds all the time (All the time being literally only ever observed directly in two people, and never observed on screen ), presumably even if they're full, so I assume that burning the Metalmind isn't really considered to be Investiture, more a kind of invitation or lure to the Investiture in the SR, using the metal as a gateway. Only the metal's nature as a metalmind changes what power comes through etc etc, and the end result being Compounding. I agree that if the Breaths are just in there through something like a failed Awakening or botched Command, they would be released, and if the metal was Awakened then it's own Identity would interfere with burning it. But, do you think you could Compound Breaths by burning metal with Breaths in it that were keyed to your Identity? I doubt you would get a greater quantity, but the quality would be improved, or the Breaths would just become more substantial, like wannabe Divine Breaths. You might be able to make a Divine Breath that way, actually. You could reach Heightenings with fewer and fewer Breaths, and use less and less to Awaken. How come this hasn't been discussed before? Edited June 1, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) I hope it's getting shorter. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Let's ignore God metals for a moment. Yes, Allomancy is different in regards to the origin of the power, but the main link I'm making is that storing may be like burning, where you don't need to have a specific Intent for what exactly needs to happen. One action made by you, where the result is determined by what you're performing the action on (the metal). A Full Feruchemist has 16 keys. When they store something, all of those keys are simultaneously applied to the 'lock', but only one actually unlocks the metaphorical lock, and that determines what charge is able to go through and charge the metal. I don't agree. Tapping is like burning as Feruchemist feels reserves of attributes just like Allomancer feels reserves of metals. In storing there is nothing that can be felt. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Keys may not be the best metaphor for what I'm trying to convey since you can only ever fit one key into a lock at a time. How about this: Let's say (disregarding real-world chemistry for a moment) you have a solution of water, salt, and sugar. If you run the solution through Filter #1, only water and sugar will be allowed through, and salt will be left behind. If you use Filter #2, only water and salt are let through, and sugar is left behind. This is my model of Feruchemy (let's call it the Filter Model), where storing something (the analog for pouring) isn't different in any of the 16 different cases, and it's the in-built filter in the metal which automatically lets only the specific attribute through. You have a solution of 16 different solutes in water, each of which will only have one corresponding filter, and when you pour the solution into a given filter, it's not the pouring making a difference, but the filter. That's more like Allomancy. You're taking general investiture and filtering it through the metal. But in Feruchemy, you are taking your body's attributes, something that you know, something that already has a shape and you put it in metal. There is no general investiture that you draw. you convert your body into specific investiture, but you need to know which part of your body to convert otherwise you can't do it at all. I really have no idea how to describe the same thing in 10 different ways. I'm repeating myself here and it sounds worse than before. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: This is the difference between how I think of it and how you think of it. I think of it as the Filtration Model, where you have one solution of 16 specific solutes, and you pour that into the filtered container, where the filter lets the right one in. You're thinking of it this way: Instead of a solution with 16 pre-determined solutes in it, you have to choose which solute you put in the water first, then pour that solution with only the single solute in. Let's call this the Pre-preparation Model. If this is indeed how Feruchemy works, then you would be right and you would need specific Intent to first separate the attribute you want to store in your mind, then store it. My question is this: If only one solute can go through a given filter, and there are only 16 specific solutes in the first place, what's the need for choosing one solute, putting it and only it into the water, then pouring that specific solution, when you could just have one solution with all 16 solutes in it, and pour that one into however many different filters you want, knowing you'll get the same result as picking the specific solute first? The Pre-preparation Model completely ignores the metal's in-built filtering properties. That's how you can describe Allomancy. But in Feruchemy you don't have that water solution. I'm not familiar with chemistry enough to answer those analogies. In Feruchemy you do not draw investiture from the outside source, the power comes from your own body, and for this you need to know which part of your body to convert into investiture and pour into a metalmind. In Feruchemy it's more like you have 16 different blocks, each have a different shape, and 16 different holes, each have a different shape. One block fits only into one hole and no other. You need to put each block into a corresponding hole, and for this you need to know what that block looks like. That's your attribute. A hole is a metalmind, your filter. You can start guessing and try to fit a random block into a chosen hole, but you need to know that block is a part of the toy set - that's the intent. For figuring out what can be stored in new metal: you have a one star-shaped hole, and 100 blocks hidden in your room. Yes you need to find them, each has a different shape but only one will fit through that hole. But those blocks exist, you need to search your room, find them all and start trying to fit every block through that hole. 99 won't fit, 1 will, that's the attribute which can be stored in that new metal. Your proposal just makes a block out of thin air that you didn't even know existed before, already on the other side of that hole. In Allomancy you have one block made out of plasticine - that's Preservation's investiture - and 16 holes, you squeeze that plasticine block through every hole and what comes on the other side has a shape of that hole, like circle, cube, star etc. The molecular structure of metals is important in Feruchemy, it determines what can be stored inside, but because the power is internal, not external like in Allomancy, you need to know what to take and store in the first place. You need to have that specific intent. Yes, you're using advanced chemistry as an analogy, I'm using toys for 1 year old kids. That summarizes my current mental state perfectly. Spoiler mooglefrooglian You've said previously that the molecular structure of metals serve to act sort of like the Aons in AonDor. Why, then, can mists power Allomancy? Shouldn't the metals themselves be the things causing the powers? And if metals don't cause the effect, how can a non-Feruchemist burn a metalmind that has been 'unlocked' through identity tricks and get a boost of an attribute without Feruchemist sDNA? Brandon Sanderson I was trying to figure out how to answer this, and then I realized while driving to get a hair cut that you were regarding this wrong in a fundamental way. Remember, the source of power for Allomancy is EXTERNAL while the source for Feruchemy is INTERNAL. This is a fundamental difference discussed in the series. When you burn metals, you're drawing power from another place. When you tap a metalmind, you are drawing power that the person has created--a battery developed by themselves, so to speak. So I think that's going to answer the source of your confusion. /r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015) 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: How would a regular person make contact with a Shard, though? Here I'm angry. IT DOESN'T MATTER. THAT ISN'T IMPORTANT. Stop focusing on that. What's important is that if a Feruchemist doesn't know what to store, he can't store it. Harmony will know, it doesn't mean he will share, but he knows what to store in Atium-aluminum alloy. Maybe if Atium-alluminum alloy was needed for Wayne to stop the bomb, Harmony would tell him what it does, and he wouldn't have to guess what to store there. But that's not important, stop focusing on that. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: As for the whole guessing thing, I get the premise of what you mean, and if Feruchemy works through the Pre-preparation Model then that would indeed be the ideal way to find new attributes and stuff. But the thing is, an attribute could be anything. You could store anything from how well your organs function to how flexible you are to whether or not you're constipated. It's an unending list where you don't know whether the attribute you've come up with is simply not viable or if you're just trying to store it in the wrong metal. And there are a lot of metals, so you'd have to make a list of different alloys, then come up with an attribute and test that on each and every single alloy, over and over and over again. Yes, that's right. Limitations, very harsh limitations. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: With something like a Fullmind, that would honestly just take ages. It's not quite as futile as I originally thought, but it would still be incredibly difficult and I can't imagine it working more than once or twice, and that's if you're insanely lucky. With Fullmind it would be far easier, as it stores anything. Just take a random guess and you have a fair chances that you'll find a Feruchemical attribute. Nail growth speed - sure it can be stored. Eye color intensity - yes it can. Neuron transmission speed - yup. Spiritual ancestry - it fits. Take a random guess and you'll find one of 10^19000 attribute. You'll never know which metal stores it, but that doesn't matter as long as you have your Fullmind. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It would just be easier in every single way for Feruchemy to work through something like the Filtration Model, where you can store and tap once you have a metal (or the Fullmind, with the Intent of using it to store as if it were that metal). Easier? Yes. But why does it matter? Why does it need to be easier? You noticed it yourself that your system breaks down with a Fullmind, as you'll be able to store something which is everything. You're halfway through accepting my idea, just take a next step 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The "until you're told which key is the right one, even the right one won't unlock the lock" bit was me saying that if Feruchemy works through the Filtration Model, you'd already have the right 'solute' (the attribute) in you, as well as a filter that filters everything but that specific solute (the metal), so if at that point specific Intent was required, it would be like the right key not opening the lock until you know that it's the right key, which can't happen until you use it to open the lock, and you just end up stuck in a paradox where the only way out is for a Shard to tell you which key is the right one, which as I've mentioned is very unlikely. No, that's not how my idea works. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: But Feruchemy isn't nearly so specific; you don't need to insert a small object in a small opening, you just need to be touching a metal and want to store something in it. That's why I switched to the Filter and Solute metaphor since I'd imagined the key metaphor as fitting all the keys into the lock simultaneously (since Investiture is formless) with only one of them working, but in hindsight, that wouldn't be intuitively obvious, which is, again, why I've now switched to the Filter and Solute analog. Investiture is formless, but your physical body isn't formless, it has clearly defined shape and function. That's why you need to know what to store, as you aren't dealing with formless investiture, like in Allomancy, you're dealing with your body. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I'm hurt, Alder. Surely you've known me long enough by now to know that I drop everything to discuss something that catches my fancy Is one month a long time? 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Ruin being powerful doesn't make a difference, I don't think. Hemalurgy doesn't make use of Ruin's Investiture, it just steals someone else's. Ruin's power is that he commands an unthinkable amount of Investiture. If Hemalurgy worked by way of Ruin's Investiture, he could totally jackknife the system that way, but it doesn't. Beyond having a perfect and intrinsic knowledge of bind points and such, Ruin can't influence Hemalurgy. His only intervention in this situation was indirect, but somehow, that was enough. I have more to say about this, it'll be lower down, near the end of this post. Ruin's power does a lot. And his mind. That's really important. Hemalurgically acquired powers might draw from Ruin instead of Preservation. But Hemalurgy itself is strongly tied to Ruin. Ruin directly fueled Marsh at the end of HoA. His investiture must be involved in the spiking process. Somehow. Spikes, containing Preservation's investiture (Allomancy), repel Mist like Ruin's investiture would do - it means there is Ruin's investiture inside that spike, either it corrupted Preservation's investiture, or added to it Ruin's investiture. Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Zantis Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy. Zantis Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And-- Brandon Sanderson I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Fair, but the Bands ran out pretty quickly given how we see the characters use it, so there can't have been too much in there. I will admit, my real interest in the Fullmind was more for researching new metals, I didn't give the combat aspect much thought. Marasi did like 40x compression to get to Mach 1, that was a loooooooot of hours of stored speed. That's why it ran out quite fast. There was math done on that by therunner somewhere recently on the Mistborn subforum, likely on a topic about compounding. Very beautiful math. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Still, I'm looking forward to more Cultivation content. Theoretically, there should be 7 different magic systems on Roshar: One for Honor, one for Odium, and one for Cultivation, then one that's a balance between Odium and Honor, one that's a balance between Honor and Cultivation, one that's a balance between Cultivation and Odium, and one that's a balance between all three. Yes. If you count them like that. 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: SA Hide contents Ruin's Investiture isn't playing a part in Hemalurgy though, not even in a passive way that's keeping the soul there. I think your other idea of an Anti-Tone specific to the power in the spike could work, but which Shard would that be based off of? Preservation? The difference between the powers may not be in Tone, but rather rhythm. Allomancy would be Preservation's Tone, played in a specific Rhythm. So maybe all you need to do is find a way to replicate the pulsing that Seekers hear, then invert it through Intent. I could see that working. But what about Feruchemy? I have a headcanon that the reason Feruchemy is hard to hear with Bronze is not because it's faint, but because it's more like a Tone than the rhythms Seekers are used to hearing. Because we know Inquisitors spent a lot of effort trying to figure out a way to detect Feruchemy, maybe while they were all looking so something like deep thumping, Feruchemy in use would actually make a noise more akin to high pitched ringing. I don't have any evidence for it, but if that's the case, the 'sound' of Feruchemy would be the Harmony between Ruin and Preservation's Tone, played at different pitches. There's only 12 pitches in a given octave, but like how Trellium's signature literally goes off the charts on a spectrometer, and Navani observes that Lights have a wider band of certain colours in the rainbows they produce, It's possible there could be some Cosmere weirdness that could somehow create the 4 other pitches needed for the full 16 variations needed. Inverting those could get rid of Feruchemy in a spike. But what if you just have an attribute in the spike, like strength? How would you remove that? Could you make a Tone that shunts your soul aside? What Shard would your soul be polarised to, given that souls are made of Investiture? As a footnote, given how hard it it to imbue metal with Breath, I don't think a soul would stick to a spike so much that you couldn't remove it. What do you think happens if you use Raysium to transfer the soul fragment into a Polestone? Given what happened to Jezrien, I think the soul would just fade off into the Beyond. So that's one way to get rid of a Hemalurgic charge. SA: Spoiler As I said, spikes repel Mist, they must contain Ruin's investiture, otherwise this wouldn't be happening. Anti-Ruin rhythm should push it out of a spike. It might be a mixture of Preservation and Ruin, containing enough Ruin to repel Mist, but being together so in Era 2 spikes no longer repel Mists. Tone and Rhythm, I'm using those words interchangeably. With Raysium it's a good point. It should be able to take a hemalurgic charge from a spike, and that charge might fade as you said. After all that charge is already fading when being in a spike, just slower. Feruchemy is detectable by Seekers only when storing or tapping, as only then it's in kinetic form. Because you're taking a part of your body/soul, which is made out of both Ruin and Preservation, what is stored in metalminds is likely a combination of those two investiture (and because Feruchemy is the result of both of Shards). On Scadrial human soul is composed of both Ruin and Preservation's investiture, with Preservation's fragment (giving Allomancy) stuck in between them. Taking something like strength would take both Ruin and Preservation's investiture out of your soul. Now that we mention that, can this be a reason why using attributes always create a hemalurgic constructs like Koloss? You're taking a piece of Ruin which would Ruin even more of the recipient's body, turning it into a monster, which taking powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy takes Preservation's fragment and is mostly pure Preservation, which doesn't create such drastic changes. Spoiler drughat Is the reason why Allomancy creates allomantic pulses visible to Seekers because it is an external magic drawing upon Preservation's power? In other words, is the reason why Feruchemy is much, much harder to detect by burning bronze because it is an internal magic? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 25, 2015) Spoiler zas678 Can you detect Feruchemy with bronze Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson It is actually possible but it's very difficult. There's a tweak that you need to do to make it work and I haven't talked about that yet. They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventy The Reason for the Mistsickness So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes. What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them. Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out. My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate. Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside. As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now. Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control. The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010) 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler I doubt it was an alloy, just a strip of Raysium set into a dagger. Maybe Voidlight (and by extension Anti-Voidlight) isn't pure Odious Investiture but changed somehow. That or Raysium's structure as a metal would require Anti-Voidlight in physical form (Anti-Raysium?) and be made to touch before they destroy one another. Yes, but put that in a spoiler box 7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It really was very clever. You took disparate, seemingly unimportant WoBs and somehow put together a whole argument that was wholly sound. Takes out-of-the-box thinking, I'm genuinely impressed. @alder24, watch out, you have competition Competition? Nah, @therunner is one of the best on the forum in making logical and compelling arguments, with whom I have the pleasure of quarrelling discussing. I can't compete with him. Edit: @Underwater_Worldhopper I've found the WoB, SA spoilers: Spoiler explaining why Raysium didn't get annihilated on contact with Anti-Voidlight: Spoiler TopicCharming2157 Living Shardblades are the physical manifestation of spren. If Moash had used Raboniel's anti-Stormlight charged dagger to stab a spren while in Shardblade form, would it kill the spren? (Like Kaladin forming a Syl shield to guard a stab) Brandon Sanderson Physical form of a spren is going to be more resilient to this. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Edited June 1, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, alder24 said: I hope it's getting shorter. Seems to be, Koloss17 is probably sighing in relief. Quote I don't agree. Tapping is like burning as Feruchemist feels reserves of attributes just like Allomancer feels reserves of metals. In storing there is nothing that can be felt. That's because you're generating the Investiture yourself, converting something of yourself into Investiture. Quote That's more like Allomancy. You're taking general investiture and filtering it through the metal. But in Feruchemy, you are taking your body's attributes, something that you know, something that already has a shape and you put it in metal. There is no general investiture that you draw. you convert your body into specific investiture, but you need to know which part of your body to convert otherwise you can't do it at all. It's not like you can convert any aspect of your body into Investiture, only the specific 16 (ignoring God metals again for the time being). And you can't do that on your own, either. A Feruchemist on their own can't start converting their speed into Investiture until they have a Steelmind to stash it in. You can only do that once you have somewhere to put it. Otherwise, there's a lock on your abilities. Extrapolating from this, once you have a metal, say a Steelmind, but don't know which of the attributes you can store in the Steelmind, you should just be able to 'store' in the Metalmind and see what goes through. A finite amount of the attributes of your body can be stored, and the metal only allows for one to go through. Circling back to what I said in my last post, it's like having a bunch of things dissolved in water, with a filtered container that will only allow the water to carry the corresponding solute in. Just pour whatever you have in, and only the right thing goes in. Quote I really have no idea how to describe the same thing in 10 different ways. I'm repeating myself here and it sounds worse than before. No kidding, finding analogs for something that doesn't really exist is hard Quote That's how you can describe Allomancy. But in Feruchemy you don't have that water solution. I'm not familiar with chemistry enough to answer those analogies. In Feruchemy you do not draw investiture from the outside source, the power comes from your own body, and for this you need to know which part of your body to convert into investiture and pour into a metalmind. But you have a very small stock of things that can be converted at all, and the containers of said things only allow their specific corresponding thing through. It's not like you can convert anything in your body into Investiture but the metals refuse to take anything but their respective attributes. In something like that, what you're saying would make sense, but given there's only 16 convertible attributes and 16 corresponding metals, I don't see why that has to be the case. Quote In Feruchemy it's more like you have 16 different blocks, each have a different shape, and 16 different holes, each have a different shape. One block fits only into one hole and no other. You need to put each block into a corresponding hole, and for this you need to know what that block looks like. That's your attribute. A hole is a metalmind, your filter. You can start guessing and try to fit a random block into a chosen hole, but you need to know that block is a part of the toy set - that's the intent. For figuring out what can be stored in new metal: you have a one star-shaped hole, and 100 blocks hidden in your room. Yes you need to find them, each has a different shape but only one will fit through that hole. But those blocks exist, you need to search your room, find them all and start trying to fit every block through that hole. 99 won't fit, 1 will, that's the attribute which can be stored in that new metal. Your proposal just makes a block out of thin air that you didn't even know existed before, already on the other side of that hole. I see what you're saying, but the attributes are part of you, they aren't hidden around outside of you. It's a false dichotomy again. Still, let me try and match it. Say there are 16 blocks and 16 holes, and each forms a 1 to 1 pair. You don't know which one is which. However, since they're all formless (formless as in don't have physical substance, they still can't go into a hole that isn't their's) and you don't have to physically handle them, you can simultaneously try and fit all sixteen in a single hole, and only one will actually go in. Quote In Allomancy you have one block made out of plasticine - that's Preservation's investiture - and 16 holes, you squeeze that plasticine block through every hole and what comes on the other side has a shape of that hole, like circle, cube, star etc. Sound analogy. Quote The molecular structure of metals is important in Feruchemy, it determines what can be stored inside, but because the power is internal, not external like in Allomancy, you need to know what to take and store in the first place. You need to have that specific intent. I argue that you don't. Quote Yes, you're using advanced chemistry as an analogy, I'm using toys for 1 year old kids. That summarizes my current mental state perfectly. The Allomancy one works just as well, I'd say it's better than mine just by virtue of how simple it makes it to wrap your head around. Don't beat yourself up Quote Yes, that's right. Limitations, very harsh limitations. Harsh to the point of impossibility. 10^19000 metals, each attribute you come up with can fit any one of those, or none, so you have no choice but to try and store the attribute you come up with 10^19000 times with different metals (or with different Intents with the Fullmind). Odds are that any attribute you come up with is probably storable in a metal. But will you find out which metal in a lifetime's worth of trying? 2 lifetimes? 10? 20? 1000? You will eventually come across the right one, but 10^19000 is a mind-numbingly big number, far beyond human comprehension. You could spend your life doing nothing but trying to find which metal (if any at all) stores that attribute, and you would most likely die long before you find out. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, you could get lucky and find out one, maybe two that way, but it's just not sustainable. Quote With Fullmind it would be far easier, as it stores anything. Just take a random guess and you have a fair chances that you'll find a Feruchemical attribute. Nail growth speed - sure it can be stored. Eye color intensity - yes it can. Neuron transmission speed - yup. Spiritual ancestry - it fits. Take a random guess and you'll find one of 10^19000 attribute. You'll never know which metal stores it, but that doesn't matter as long as you have your Fullmind. I'll have to disagree here. I think that while Feruchemy doesn't require Intent specific enough to the point of needing to know the attribute you're storing, It can't be so Intentless as to not know the metal. I'm a bit shocked you're saying this, given the points you were making against Feruchemy and Allomancy being similar just earlier, especially since this conflates them way more than what I was suggesting. Not to mention this use of the Fullmind is overpowered far beyond what I was intending to do with it. Quote Easier? Yes. But why does it matter? Why does it need to be easier? You noticed it yourself that your system breaks down with a Fullmind, as you'll be able to store something which is everything. You're halfway through accepting my idea, just take a next step It needs to be easier because the limitations you suggest make Feruchemical progress nigh impossible. As for the Filtration Model breaking down when confronted with the Fullmind, not really. I just admit that at that point you would need specific Intent because the Fullmind doesn't have a filter. Quote No, that's not how my idea works. I figured, I said what I said before I realized we were looking at Feruchemy fundamentally differently. Quote Investiture is formless, but your physical body isn't formless, it has clearly defined shape and function. That's why you need to know what to store, as you aren't dealing with formless investiture, like in Allomancy, you're dealing with your body. Yes, but that argument doesn't hold either. What's the shape of speed? The shape of wakefulness? Beyond F-Pewter, which I could maybe see an argument about the shape, you're really just taking a concept and converting it into Investiture, temporarily depriving you of it. Where the actual transition/insertion of Investiture into the Metalmind is concerned, the attribute is Investiture anyway. Quote Is one month a long time? Should have been, considering I did that very thing in this thread about seven different times. Quote Ruin's power does a lot. And his mind. That's really important. Hemalurgically acquired powers might draw from Ruin instead of Preservation. But Hemalurgy itself is strongly tied to Ruin. Ruin directly fueled Marsh at the end of HoA. His investiture must be involved in the spiking process. Somehow. Spikes, containing Preservation's investiture (Allomancy), repel Mist like Ruin's investiture would do - it means there is Ruin's investiture inside that spike, either it corrupted Preservation's investiture, or added to it Ruin's investiture. We really should make a thread just for this and discuss what exactly's going on with Hemalurgy. Quote Hide contents Zantis Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy. Zantis Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And-- Brandon Sanderson I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) That one always confuses me, because no other WoB says anything like that. I assume it's a mistake, but it makes so much sense, and it has so many interesting implications. I don't count it as canon myself (for now), but think of what it suggests. Would a Hemalurgist who spiked someone's spren bond not need Stormlight to Surgebind, since they have a direct line to Ruin's Investiture through the spikes, like how an Allomancer can access Preservation's Investiture through the metal. Quote Marasi did like 40x compression to get to Mach 1, that was a loooooooot of hours of stored speed. That's why it ran out quite fast. There was math done on that by therunner somewhere recently on the Mistborn subforum, likely on a topic about compounding. Very beautiful math. I'll have to check that out. Quote Yes. If you count them like that. Spoiler SA: How many have we seen, so far? We don't know the strict parameters yet to tell the difference, I think. Is Voidbinding the same as Singer Forms of Power? Is what Yelig-Nar does Voidbinding? If Voidbinding is what Renarin and Rlain do, what is what the Fused are doing? Is that the same as Yelig-Nar? Which Shard(s) caused Fabrial Science to become a thing? The lines re just too blurry right now. Quote SA: Hide contents As I said, spikes repel Mist, they must contain Ruin's investiture, otherwise this wouldn't be happening. Anti-Ruin rhythm should push it out of a spike. Maybe, I'm sure it would do something, but I feel like something is missing. Quote Feruchemy is detectable by Seekers only when storing or tapping, as only then it's in kinetic form. Because you're taking a part of your body/soul, which is made out of both Ruin and Preservation, what is stored in metalminds is likely a combination of those two investiture (and because Feruchemy is the result of both of Shards). So Ruin and Preservation's hybrid tone's Anti-Tone is what would drive Investiture out of a Metalmind? Quote On Scadrial human soul is composed of both Ruin and Preservation's investiture, with Preservation's fragment (giving Allomancy) stuck in between them. Taking something like strength would take both Ruin and Preservation's investiture out of your soul. Spoiler SA Spoilers So again, the Anti Tone for that should drive it out of a spike, if Ruin's Anti Tone alone doesn't work. But would that not also affect your soul, if played in your vicinity? I'm imagining weapons in Space Age Cosmere where you make weapons that displace the souls of everyone from a target planet, Like killing Nalthians by bombarding a battlefield with Anti-Endowment tone. Quote Now that we mention that, can this be a reason why using attributes always create a hemalurgic constructs like Koloss? You're taking a piece of Ruin which would Ruin even more of the recipient's body, turning it into a monster, which taking powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy takes Preservation's fragment and is mostly pure Preservation, which doesn't create such drastic changes. Could be. I've always thought it's because the part of your Spiritweb that codes for Allomantic and Feruchemical powers don't affect you much physically, whereas regular human attributes are meant to affect you physically, so they mutate you far, far easier, simply by your Physical Aspect trying to emulate its Spiritual Aspect; Like scrambling you DNA in a way that makes an ear grow out of your thigh, or teeth instead of nails. Your idea has a lot of merit though. Quote Competition? Nah, @therunner is one of the best on the forum in making logical and compelling arguments, with whom I have the pleasure of quarrelling discussing. I can't compete with him. Personally, I think you two should battle to the death, and whichever one comes out on top gets my kudos. Quote It might be a mixture of Preservation and Ruin, containing enough Ruin to repel Mist, but being together so in Era 2 spikes no longer repel Mists. I haven't checked, but I think the Mists pull away from Wax once he gives himself A-Duralumin. Quote Tone and Rhythm, I'm using those words interchangeably. They're not the same thing. Quote With Raysium it's a good point. It should be able to take a hemalurgic charge from a spike, and that charge might fade as you said. After all that charge is already fading when being in a spike, just slower. Well, a Hemalurgic charge in a spike acts like an unstable radioactive particle, and Hemalurgic decay works basically like Half-life. With that in mind, a Hemalurgic charge would never run out in metal, even though it might weaken to the point of not giving you any power, so it's not the same thing as fading in the way Stormlight does in a Polestone. I think that would be enough to 'kill' a Hemalurgic charge. If the soul fragment somehow stays in the Polestone though (Don't know why or how this would ever happen but let's say it does), could you fashion a spike out of the crystal? Not even by changing the shape of the crystal, necessarily, but by inserting it into the body in the right place as it is? Spoiler Quote explaining why Raysium didn't get annihilated on contact with Anti-Voidlight: So you would probably need the Anti-Investiture in the physical form to get it to annihilate, or would not even that work? Edited June 1, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted June 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 Y’all are playing a daaaangerous game with spoilers here. And I don’t mind the takeover, I really don’t. It’s fun to see all the banter, and I certainly think it can be useful to help get us closer to understanding all o these complexities. However, if you want to be taking up my thread space, which I am more than happy to give, I demand a price. Consider me a landlord of sorts, where rent must be paid to occupy their space. Or I suppose a land…Overlord. The contract shall be sent to you all shortly. Accept or reject, the terms will be set. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Koloss17 said: However, if you want to be taking up my thread space, which I am more than happy to give, I demand a price. Consider me a landlord of sorts, where rent must be paid to occupy their space. Or I suppose a land…Overlord. The contract shall be sent to you all shortly. Accept or reject, the terms will be set. We await the terms, Land Overlord. It would be an honor to enter a Contract with one of your status, leader of the F-Tin Cult 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That's because you're generating the Investiture yourself, converting something of yourself into Investiture. Yes, but it doesn't exist bofore you do it, you don't feel it. You don't know what to convert. 14 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It's not like you can convert any aspect of your body into Investiture, only the specific 16 (ignoring God metals again for the time being). And you can't do that on your own, either. A Feruchemist on their own can't start converting their speed into Investiture until they have a Steelmind to stash it in. You can only do that once you have somewhere to put it. Otherwise, there's a lock on your abilities. Extrapolating from this, once you have a metal, say a Steelmind, but don't know which of the attributes you can store in the Steelmind, you should just be able to 'store' in the Metalmind and see what goes through. A finite amount of the attributes of your body can be stored, and the metal only allows for one to go through. Circling back to what I said in my last post, it's like having a bunch of things dissolved in water, with a filtered container that will only allow the water to carry the corresponding solute in. Just pour whatever you have in, and only the right thing goes in. The ability to convert an attribute into investiture comes from your sDNA and the metal you want to use. So yes, you can try to create pewter investiture and put it into a steelmind. Intent prohibits this. You have the intent to use a steel, but your intent to use a proper attribute isn't matched with what steel Feruchemical property is. Therefore nothing would happen. But if you intend to use steel and speed - then magic will happen and the attribute will be converted into investiture and pushed into that steelmind. You need to match the attribute you want to store with the metal's feruchemical property. But storing "something" isn't a match. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I see what you're saying, but the attributes are part of you, they aren't hidden around outside of you. It's a false dichotomy again. Still, let me try and match it. Say there are 16 blocks and 16 holes, and each forms a 1 to 1 pair. You don't know which one is which. However, since they're all formless (formless as in don't have physical substance, they still can't go into a hole that isn't their's) and you don't have to physically handle them, you can simultaneously try and fit all sixteen in a single hole, and only one will actually go in. Yes they aren't hidden outside. The room is your body, blocks are the attributes and you (in that analogy) is a will, a mind that decides what to do. You already have a pile of 17 blocks that you know to which hole they fit in, the rest is "hidden" in the room among common objects. This is to explain that you need to think about what can be stored in a metalmind and test it - trying to fit that block into the hole (metalmind). Finding a block means knowing how it looks, what shape it has etc - thinking about what can be an attribute means guessing some part of your body or its function by the name - like guessing that height can be stored. Then you test it trying to store it. But you need to know what you try to store. Your "fixed" analogy still assumes that you know this block exists. That you touch it, you focus on it, you pick it up. But that's not what you are proposing. You propose to fit into the hole a block that doesn't exist, a block that you don't touch, you don't see, you don't know that is in your room. But this is something that you need to know, as you have to pick it up with your hands and push it into the hole. Without knowing about it, you won't pick it up. And yes, you have to physically touch them. Do you have telekinetic ability or something? Kids with telekinesis would be a nightmare. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Harsh to the point of impossibility. 10^19000 metals, each attribute you come up with can fit any one of those, or none, so you have no choice but to try and store the attribute you come up with 10^19000 times with different metals (or with different Intents with the Fullmind). Odds are that any attribute you come up with is probably storable in a metal. But will you find out which metal in a lifetime's worth of trying? 2 lifetimes? 10? 20? 1000? You will eventually come across the right one, but 10^19000 is a mind-numbingly big number, far beyond human comprehension. You could spend your life doing nothing but trying to find which metal (if any at all) stores that attribute, and you would most likely die long before you find out. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, you could get lucky and find out one, maybe two that way, but it's just not sustainable. Nah, If I had a Fullmind I wouldn't waste my time trying to figure out which attribute belongs to which metal. I would just make a list of new storable attributes and pass it to scientists and let them waste their life on that, while I would just have fun playing with new toys. I think you falsely assume that Fullmind will be a focus of future scientific advancements in Metallic arts. It won't be. That's just a new fancy tool for a select few to play with - at best. Another thing against your idea. If you would need JUST the intent to store SOMETHING in metalmind, then it would be no different from Inquisitors wanting to compound - just them wanting to burn metalminds should be enough. And yet none of them figured it out under Ruin, even when Marsh knew about it, heard Sazed's explanation and knew he just needed to burn his metalmind. Easy right? No. Because more is needed. You need to know that you must "burn" that new reserve of your stored attribute, not just burn a metalmind like a metal. To add more, you need to know what is happening, and how this will change you. That's what they were missing. They didn't know it. In the same way, just knowing that it is a metalmind isn't enough, you need to know which attribute to store, how will it change you and what is happening. And you can't know all of that without knowing which attribute it is. That's the proper intent you need to have. Just storing "something" won't do it, just like Inquisitors weren't able to just "burn" metalminds. Spoiler Moogle Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly? And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect? Brandon Sanderson What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENTION is vitally important to the workings of most cosmere magics. You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command. During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you. If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain. Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015) This, this explanation of intent is the last one that I will give you. This WoB explains what I've been talking to you in all those past days, confirming my idea. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I'll have to disagree here. I think that while Feruchemy doesn't require Intent specific enough to the point of needing to know the attribute you're storing, It can't be so Intentless as to not know the metal. I'm a bit shocked you're saying this, given the points you were making against Feruchemy and Allomancy being similar just earlier, especially since this conflates them way more than what I was suggesting. Not to mention this use of the Fullmind is overpowered far beyond what I was intending to do with it. That's one of many possibilities of how a Fullmind might work. You might need just to know the attribute, or both attribute and metal to which it belongs to. But I think because a Fullmind is keyed to every attribute, you just need to know only that. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler That one always confuses me, because no other WoB says anything like that. I assume it's a mistake, but it makes so much sense, and it has so many interesting implications. I don't count it as canon myself (for now), but think of what it suggests. Would a Hemalurgist who spiked someone's spren bond not need Stormlight to Surgebind, since they have a direct line to Ruin's Investiture through the spikes, like how an Allomancer can access Preservation's Investiture through the metal. SA Spoiler Possibly, but keep in mind a power provided in Allomancy by Shards is miniscule compared to what Stormlight holds. Your Surgebinding powered by Allomancy would be just very weak and not effective. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: SA: Spoiler How many have we seen, so far? We don't know the strict parameters yet to tell the difference, I think. Is Voidbinding the same as Singer Forms of Power? Is what Yelig-Nar does Voidbinding? If Voidbinding is what Renarin and Rlain do, what is what the Fused are doing? Is that the same as Yelig-Nar? Which Shard(s) caused Fabrial Science to become a thing? The lines re just too blurry right now. SA Spoiler No idea. Brandon even said if you count each Surge as a separate magic system, which is valid, there are more than 30 magic systems on Roshar. So 10 for Surgebinding, 10 for Voidbinding, 10 for Lifebinding + Old Magic and Fabrials (i don't count Fabrials as magic, Fabrial is magic-tech). Singer forms of power, Yelig-Nar and Fused is from Surgebinding. Red eyes are associated with corrupted investiture and I believe Odium corrupts Surgebinding so they can use it with Voidlight. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler So Ruin and Preservation's hybrid tone's Anti-Tone is what would drive Investiture out of a Metalmind? SA: Spoiler Maybe. Or a specific anti tone of the attribute stored there, which is a combination of Ruin and Preservation's tone. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: SA Spoilers Spoiler So again, the Anti Tone for that should drive it out of a spike, if Ruin's Anti Tone alone doesn't work. But would that not also affect your soul, if played in your vicinity? I'm imagining weapons in Space Age Cosmere where you make weapons that displace the souls of everyone from a target planet, Like killing Nalthians by bombarding a battlefield with Anti-Endowment tone. SA: Spoiler Again, maybe. It depends how much "sticky" the spike is. Your soul, just like Raboniel's soul, would be in discomfort, but just by playing that tone won't make your soul disappear. Iirc, In RoW, the gem with the anti-tone being close to the gem with proper tone didn't push the light out of the gem. Nor just playing anti tone close to the gem didn't do that. With spikes you would need something more, a way to conduct anti-investiture into the spike without damaging it in the process. 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Personally, I think you two should battle to the death, and whichever one comes out on top gets my kudos. Who do you think you are that we need to fight for your approval? 15 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I haven't checked, but I think the Mists pull away from Wax once he gives himself A-Duralumin. No, they don't do that anymore. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventeen The Mists Form In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony? The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away? I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.) The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later. The Alloy of Law Annotations (Nov. 30, 2015) Spoiler Chaos Do all three Metallic Arts still exist after the events of the book? Are Allomancy and Hemalurgy slightly degenerated now that Ruin and Preservation are dead, or does Allomancy still draw upon Preservation's power (just held with Sazed now)? Brandon Sanderson Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings." Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) That shouldn't be the case. They shouldn't be repealed by spikes. But I had to check and it did happen with Wax in TLM! Ch 69: Quote In that shadow, Wellid saw a misbegotten shape. A thing that wasn’t human, a thing that couldn’t be human. The mists seemed to know this, for while they played with the waving tentacles, they stayed away from the figure. It repelled the mist. This is another proof that something is wrong with Harmony, that he favors Preservation over Ruin and Mist reacted to this and are now repealed by Hemalurgy. Or this is even an indication that Sazed is already Discord. That's very interesting. 16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: They're not the same thing. For me are, as I lack the proper knowledge of music and waves 16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Well, a Hemalurgic charge in a spike acts like an unstable radioactive particle, and Hemalurgic decay works basically like Half-life. With that in mind, a Hemalurgic charge would never run out in metal, even though it might weaken to the point of not giving you any power That's not true, after a long time, there will be only one atom of that isotope left, and it will decay, leaving you with nothing. Technically speaking. 16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I think that would be enough to 'kill' a Hemalurgic charge. If the soul fragment somehow stays in the Polestone though (Don't know why or how this would ever happen but let's say it does), could you fashion a spike out of the crystal? Not even by changing the shape of the crystal, necessarily, but by inserting it into the body in the right place as it is? No, it's not metal. It's not a spike anymore. Fabrial on the other hand might be possible to make that way. You replace a spren with a different kind of soul. Interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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