Loophole in the contract

[The_Milkgod]

I was just reading a post that mentioned the loophole in the contract. I haven’t thought of it since finishing RoW other than reading some posts around the baby champion theory. So does anyone have any ideas what it could be? The baby champion theory comes to mind but anything else? 

Edited December 1, 2022 by The_Milkgod
Grammar error

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

7 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said:

I was just reading a post that mentioned the loophole in the contract. I haven’t thought of it since finishing RoW other than reading some post around the baby champion theory. So does anyone have any ideas what it could be? The baby champion theory comes to mind but anything else? 

I’m also not sure and definitely what to see what people think here. Great question!

[slavagh he/him]

 

On 01.12.2022 at 7:06 PM, The_Milkgod said:

I was just reading a post that mentioned the loophole in the contract. I haven’t thought of it since finishing RoW other than reading some posts around the baby champion theory. So does anyone have any ideas what it could be? The baby champion theory comes to mind but anything else? 

I had this topic a while back:  "Battle of champions. (I spent way too much time thinking about this topic, and here is the result)"

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about a loophole:

The weird thing about the setup of this battle is how relatively low the stakes are. No matter the outcome, Dalinar has already won. (Even Wit said that to Odium). The stakes basically are Alethkar, Herdas, and Dalinar’s soul. For us, the audience, the stakes are whether one of the heroes that we care about can die.  When Taravangian took the shard, the stakes for Odium became even lower. His goal was always to save Roshar and now he basically has the power to end this war. For him, the outcome of this fight is even more meaningless than for Raise.

The second weird thing is Taravangian-Odium thought about Raise being maneuvered into this deal: “The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control”. And literally the next sentence: “It can still be done”. And something about subtle possibilities. Both outcomes of the fight are unsatisfying for him. I think Taravangian really wants the same thing the Raise did: to be free of Honors restrictions. This is the outcome that he is looking for.

Chapter Terms has this interesting bit:

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here:

1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility)

2) Dalinar refuses to kill his opponent (child, Gavilar, etc). Terms are strict about the killing part.

3) Dalinar is not a champion but intervenes in the fight.

The third option is the one I want to speculate on the most. Who will be Dalinar’s champion if not himself?

I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards.  Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son.

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

[offer]

8 minutes ago, slavagh said:

 

I had this topic a while back:  "Battle of champions. (I spent way too much time thinking about this topic, and here is the result)"

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about a loophole:

The weird thing about the setup of this battle is how relatively low the stakes are. No matter the outcome, Dalinar has already won. (Even Wit said that to Odium). The stakes basically are Alethkar, Herdas, and Dalinar’s soul. For us, the audience, the stakes are whether one of the heroes that we care about can die.  When Taravangian took the shard, the stakes for Odium became even lower. His goal was always to save Roshar and now he basically has the power to end this war. For him, the outcome of this fight is even more meaningless than for Raise.

The second weird thing is Taravangian-Odium thought about Raise being maneuvered into this deal: “The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control”. And literally the next sentence: “It can still be done”. And something about subtle possibilities. Both outcomes of the fight are unsatisfying for him. I think Taravangian really wants the same thing the Raise did: to be free of Honors restrictions. This is the outcome that he is looking for.

Chapter Terms has this interesting bit:

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here:

1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility)

2) Dalinar refuses to kill his opponent (child, Gavilar, etc). Terms are strict about the killing part.

3) Dalinar is not a champion but intervenes in the fight.

The third option is the one I want to speculate on the most. Who will be Dalinar’s champion if not himself?

I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards.  Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son.

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

 

I don`t think option 2 is breaking the terms - it is just loosing.

But option 3 seems really interesting. It gave me the idea that maybe it is not Dalinar that intervenes but someone of his side (I think Dalinar will be the champion) - for example I ccan imagine a situation where Moash is Odium`s champion and Kaladin sees it and tries to stop the fight.

[slavagh he/him]

6 minutes ago, offer said:

I don`t think option 2 is breaking the terms - it is just loosing.

But option 3 seems really interesting. It gave me the idea that maybe it is not Dalinar that intervenes but someone of his side (I think Dalinar will be the champion) - for example I ccan imagine a situation where Moash is Odium`s champion and Kaladin sees it and tries to stop the fight.

Like the idea about Kaladin being the one to intervene. It will be poetic if his noble need to save will free Odium. But I think he will try to save Honor's champion (Dalinar or Adolin). It needs to be someone from his side. There is the quote on Final terms: "allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces".

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

3 hours ago, slavagh said:

I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards.  Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son.

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I actually posted a theory I have just recently too here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/113736-spoilers-for-sa5-readings-predictions/

basically, I think Syl gets killed by Ishar and Kaladin snaps. He gives his pain to Odium and agrees to be his champion. But he and Dalinar refuse to fight each other and the agreement collapses. 

[The_Milkgod]

5 hours ago, slavagh said:

 

I had this topic a while back:  "Battle of champions. (I spent way too much time thinking about this topic, and here is the result)"

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about a loophole:

The weird thing about the setup of this battle is how relatively low the stakes are. No matter the outcome, Dalinar has already won. (Even Wit said that to Odium). The stakes basically are Alethkar, Herdas, and Dalinar’s soul. For us, the audience, the stakes are whether one of the heroes that we care about can die.  When Taravangian took the shard, the stakes for Odium became even lower. His goal was always to save Roshar and now he basically has the power to end this war. For him, the outcome of this fight is even more meaningless than for Raise.

The second weird thing is Taravangian-Odium thought about Raise being maneuvered into this deal: “The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control”. And literally the next sentence: “It can still be done”. And something about subtle possibilities. Both outcomes of the fight are unsatisfying for him. I think Taravangian really wants the same thing the Raise did: to be free of Honors restrictions. This is the outcome that he is looking for.

Chapter Terms has this interesting bit:

 “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here:

1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility)

2) Dalinar refuses to kill his opponent (child, Gavilar, etc). Terms are strict about the killing part.

3) Dalinar is not a champion but intervenes in the fight.

The third option is the one I want to speculate on the most. Who will be Dalinar’s champion if not himself?

I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards.  Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son.

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

Honestly this is so much better than the baby champion theory. Referring to the third thought I mean. I would hate and love to see Kaladin be pit against Adolin. Though Dalinar said he’d be his own champion so we’ll have to see. 

[slavagh he/him]

21 hours ago, The_Milkgod said:

Honestly this is so much better than the baby champion theory. Referring to the third thought I mean. I would hate and love to see Kaladin be pit against Adolin. Though Dalinar said he’d be his own champion so we’ll have to see. 

I am quite confident Dalinar as his own champion is a clever misdirection from the author.
1) Why reveal it so early? It's one of the most intriguing parts of the next book.
2) He is not the best fighter. Adolin or Kaladin are better. Don't think magical powers will count. Otherwise, Odium can grant unlimited powers to his champion.
3) One of Dalinar's major arks throughout all four books is his realization that as the leader - bondsmith he needs to delegate his responsibilities and put trust in others.  First, he stopped directly participating in battles.  Then he sought Mink to take over the command on the battlefield. His direct foe is Odium himself, not his champion.

Edited December 3, 2022 by slavagh

[DiePie]

On 12/3/2022 at 4:42 PM, slavagh said:

I am quite confident Dalinar as his own champion is a clever misdirection from the author.
1) Why reveal it so early? It's one of the most intriguing parts of the next book.
2) He is not the best fighter. Adolin or Kaladin are better. Don't think magical powers will count. Otherwise, Odium can grant unlimited powers to his champion.
3) One of Dalinar's major arks throughout all four books is his realization that as the leader - bondsmith he needs to delegate his responsibilities and put trust in others.  First, he stopped directly participating in battles.  Then he sought Mink to take over the command on the battlefield. His direct foe is Odium himself, not his champion.

I sort of assumed from that that the battle wouldn't be a literal duel, but instead a fight for the, "hearts of men". Where Dalinar and Rayse (now Taravangian) try to convince each other and also each other's forces to switch sides. After all, both options of the deal lock Odium to Roshar, but allow the Fused and Radiants to do as they please. I think that under this format, Dalinar would be the best choice because of his ability to summon visions.

<spoilers for WoT>

Spoiler

Sort of like how Rand and the Dark One start their battle by pulling on threads of the wheel to create worlds of their own.

 

On 12/1/2022 at 0:06 PM, The_Milkgod said:

I was just reading a post that mentioned the loophole in the contract. I haven’t thought of it since finishing RoW other than reading some posts around the baby champion theory. So does anyone have any ideas what it could be? The baby champion theory comes to mind but anything else? 

If you want loopholes: the contract doesn't have provisions for what to do during the contest of champions, meaning that if Taravodium can find some way of prolonging it (perhaps indefinitely) he might gain more agency. There's also the fact that Cultivation things that Taravodium may be on her side -- perhaps allowing him to act directly against Dalinar (who would stand no chance against the full might of a shard). So he just elects himself as champion and wins.

[slavagh he/him]

17 hours ago, DiePie said:

I sort of assumed from that that the battle wouldn't be a literal duel, but instead a fight for the, "hearts of men". Where Dalinar and Rayse (now Taravangian) try to convince each other and also each other's forces to switch sides. After all, both options of the deal lock Odium to Roshar, but allow the Fused and Radiants to do as they please. I think that under this format, Dalinar would be the best choice because of his ability to summon visions.

Fair point. Dalinar himself said that the fight won't simply be a swordfight. But the terms are strict about the killing part.  I kind of assume that the whole point to have the contest of champions is to avoid a direct clash between two shards. Fighting for the "hearts of men" doesn't need champions. Dalinar and Odium are in the middle of that fight already. For me, the fight between two people without using superpowers makes more sense. I always thought it will be that way, before those words from Dalinar.

17 hours ago, DiePie said:

If you want loopholes: the contract doesn't have provisions for what to do during the contest of champions, meaning that if Taravodium can find some way of prolonging it (perhaps indefinitely) he might gain more agency. There's also the fact that Cultivation things that Taravodium may be on her side -- perhaps allowing him to act directly against Dalinar (who would stand no chance against the full might of a shard). So he just elects himself as champion and wins.

That's interesting. I haven't really considered Cultivation's preferences in the fight. But Odium might think she is an ally. I don't know what her game is at this point. Does she realize who Taravangian is, or has she made a horrible mistake? Is she playing Odium or is he playing her now?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

Fair point. Dalinar himself said that the fight won't simply be a swordfight. But the terms are strict about the killing part.

Yes, so we have more options

• both champions die
• it becomes impossible to fulfill the terms (for example Urithiru no longer exists)
• one side sends somebody who can technically not die, for example a robot - though that may be cheating

[alder24]

There are some great ideas here, especially @slavagh, seams very likely.

I doubt it will be something else than a duel, as Odium told Taravangian during his deal with him, it's binding not by the words, that can be differently interpreted, but by the spirit of it. Dalinar is convinced it will be a fight to death.

I think the loophole was already foreshadowed to us twice - Hoid told Jasnah a story about person who always bets only on win or lose, but he lost to someone who made him draw and second time in a Death Rattle. The contract Dalinar and Odium made, specify what happens in case of Dalinar victory and defeat, but not a single word about a draw - what will happen if both contestants would withdraw or both be killed. When duel ends in draw, the contract no longer apply, and Odium would be freed of it. 

The first ever Death Rattle in whole series foreshadows this, and we all know what Brandon likes to do with this.

Quote

The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather... we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.

"We are his" probably refers to the origin of Humans and their first god, Odium. 1000 days till Everstorm is obvious. But the first part "The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice." is unknown to us. What could this mean? Cold, mountain, stream, ice? Well it gives me impression that it could be about Urithiru, probably related to duel of Champions - "the love of man" - with all that was spoken in this topic, its fits with someone like Dalinar being forced to fight someone he loves - Adolin, Gavinor, or stoping the fight because of love - Adolin vs Kaladin, Dalinar vs Vyre (stoped by Kaladin) etc. I bet this part of the Death Rattle predicts the ending of SA5 and duel of Champions.

 

Unfortunatly I think Dalinar might get killed, hurt or broken. But the reason I think that would be a case is soo many Death Rattles predicting that something bad will happen to Stromfather. He will suffer, maybe become a deadeye, be shattered, or be ripped off from Roshar completely - there are too many  Death Rattles suggesting something like this. Stormlight will be gone, Highstorms will be gone. Only endless weeping and darkness will remain.

Quote

The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above.

And there is that Death Rattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

This also refers to water raising. I think that whatever Todium will do to Dalinar and Stormfather causing endless weeping, would flood Roshar and unintentionally lead to flooding and destruction of Kharbranth. This will mean breaking of the deal between Odium and Taravangian, hurting him in process, making him unable to act and susceptible to attacks. Todium destroying Kharbranth would be very poetic and fitting. Every time when he was emotional and passionate, he cried easily, "they were his own tears".

 

I think it will be a duel, between two people who are loved by Dalinar, or love eachother (Kaladin/Dalinar vs Adolin, Adolin/Dalinar vs Gavinor, Adolin/Dalinar vs Vyre) and both will agree to withdraw form it, or both will kill eachother. It might also be stoped by Dalinar himself, which would mean breaking the contract, and that would harm both Dalinar and Stormfather as well, stoping Hightstorms and Stormlight, which would begin endless weeping. Drawing the fight beause of love is the loophole for Odium.

Edited May 23, 2023 by alder24

[slavagh he/him]

On 06.12.2022 at 3:41 PM, alder24 said:

I think it will be a duel, between two people who are loved by Dalinar, or love eachother (Kaladin/Dalinar vs Adolin, Adolin/Dalinar vs Gavilor, Adolin/Dalinar vs Vyre) and both will agree to withdraw form it, or both will kill eachother. It might also be stoped by Dalinar himself, which would mean breaking the contract, and that would harm both Dalinar and Stormfather as well, stoping Hightstorms and Stormlight, which would begin endless weeping. Drawing the fight beause of love is the loophole for Odium.

Drawing the fight because of love feels very satisfying for me. I have no idea about the implications of that outcome. I think it gives the author the wiggle room to have an unexpected ending.

Also agree about the bad ending for the main characters, Stormfather, and storms. Too many Death Rattles are foreshadowing it. It is more likely it is about the first five books ending than the second.

[Letryx13]

I've said it before and I'll argue it again.  I think that this contest is the opportunity to bind Odium permanently. If Odium loses the contest, he has to return Alethkar and Herdaz.  But if he doesn't have both of those to return to Dalinar, then he can't return them, which would force him to break his oath.  That puts him in Dalinar's power, and Dalinar could then order him to return to Braize, never interacting, influecning, or empowering anyone ever again.  It's hard to imagine how either country could fall out of Odium's hands in less than ten days, but I think it's a mistake to call it impossible.  The main possibilities that jumps out to me is the GhostBloods or some other third party to the Desolation coming into play, or the singers of Herdaz rebelling (since Kholinar seems to be the singers capital for now, Herdaz seems more likely to slip free of Odium) and breaking apart from the others that way.

I also have not ruled out Kaladin as the champion.  Most readers were assuming he would be, despite Sanderson's attempts to convince us he wouldn't be.  Dalinar makes it plain he was planning on being his own champion since at least Oathbringer.  Then Dalinar's conversation with Rayse setting terms for the contest and then his conversation at the end with Kaladin. It just seems like Sanderson is trying really hard to convince us.  And I'm not convinced.

Kaladin is headed to Shinovar with Szeth in book five, and the Shin have an Oathgate, which means, it is entirely possible that he could be back at Uritheru in time for the contest, possibly failing at retrieving Ishar in time to train Dalinar in BondSmithing.

Adolin as Odium's champion is a possibility that ties frighteningly well into my theory.  Aside from one brief sparring match, we've never seen Adolin and Khaladin actually fight.  It's stated that Adolin has trained Khaladin in using a sword, but we've never seen it.  As much as I don't want to think that Adolin would support Odium, Tarravangian is crafty enough that he could probably find a way to manipulate or coerce Adolin into complying. Taking Shallan as a hostage, for instance.  I actually think that it's a likely scenario. Tarravangian kidnaps Shallan to control Adolin, who lets himself be used as a champion with the idea that Dalinar won't be able to kill his own son. But as the twist, Kaladin steps in to do the job.  I hope it doesn't happen, but I think it's all too likely.

[CMac716]

So, what if it's a reverse loophole, a check-mate by none other than Cultivation. TOdium is still bound by the agreement he made with, well, himself. Odium the shard is bound by the agreement made with Taravangian that Karbranth and its people were to be left alone.

 

If the Coalition chooses anyone from Karbranth, it's an auto-win. By defeating the champion TOdium wounds himself enough that Cultivation could shatter him, but if he doesn't, they get the thousand years on repeat, even easier if the blood of Karbranth disseminates over that millenia.

 

Biggest issue, only Taravangian and Odium for sure knew about the deal, maybe Cultivation can assume it because of the boon she granted tho, if she didn't plan for it to begin with

[bmcclure7]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:41 AM, alder24 said:

There are some great ideas here, especially @slavagh, seams very likely.

I doubt it will be something else than a duel, as Odium told Taravangian during his deal with him, it's binding not by the words, that can be differently interpreted, but by the spirit of it. Dalinar is convinced it will be a fight to death.

I think the loophole was already foreshadowed to us twice - Hoid told Jasnah a story about person who always bets only on win or lose, but he lost to someone who made him draw and second time in a Death Rattle. The contract Dalinar and Odium made, specify what happens in case of Dalinar victory and defeat, but not a single word about a draw - what will happen if both contestants would withdraw or both be killed. When duel ends in draw, the contract no longer apply, and Odium would be freed of it. 

The first ever Death Rattle in whole series foreshadows this, and we all know what Brandon likes to do with this.

"We are his" probably refers to the origin of Humans and their first god, Odium. 1000 days till Everstorm is obvious. But the first part "The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice." is unknown to us. What could this mean? Cold, mountain, stream, ice? Well it gives me impression that it could be about Urithiru, probably related to duel of Champions - "the love of man" - with all that was spoken in this topic, its fits with someone like Dalinar being forced to fight someone he loves - Adolin, Gavilor, or stoping the fight because of love - Adolin vs Kaladin, Dalinar vs Vyre (stoped by Kaladin) etc. I bet this part of the Death Rattle predicts the ending of SA5 and duel of Champions.

 

Unfortunatly I think Dalinar might get killed, hurt or broken. But the reason I think that would be a case is soo many Death Rattles predicting that something bad will happen to Stromfather. He will suffer, maybe become a deadeye, be shattered, or be ripped off from Roshar completely - there are too many  Death Rattles suggesting something like this. Stormlight will be gone, Highstorms will be gone. Only endless weeping and darkness will remain.

And there is that Death Rattle:

This also refers to water raising. I think that whatever Todium will do to Dalinar and Stormfather causing endless weeping, would flood Roshar and unintentionally lead to flooding and destruction of Kharbranth. This will mean breaking of the deal between Odium and Taravangian, hurting him in process, making him unable to act and susceptible to attacks. Todium destroying Kharbranth would be very poetic and fitting. Every time when he was emotional and passionate, he cried easily, "they were his own tears".

 

I think it will be a duel, between two people who are loved by Dalinar, or love eachother (Kaladin/Dalinar vs Adolin, Adolin/Dalinar vs Gavilor, Adolin/Dalinar vs Vyre) and both will agree to withdraw form it, or both will kill eachother. It might also be stoped by Dalinar himself, which would mean breaking the contract, and that would harm both Dalinar and Stormfather as well, stoping Hightstorms and Stormlight, which would begin endless weeping. Drawing the fight beause of love is the loophole for Odium.

Funny I have almost exact opposite theory. Jasnah or some other radiant will attack Kharbranth. Sending odium into a mindless rage and resulting in him flooding the world with a world wide ever storm. 

[Wuestenfuchs]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:00 PM, Letryx13 said:

I've said it before and I'll argue it again.  I think that this contest is the opportunity to bind Odium permanently. If Odium loses the contest, he has to return Alethkar and Herdaz.  But if he doesn't have both of those to return to Dalinar, then he can't return them, which would force him to break his oath.  That puts him in Dalinar's power, and Dalinar could then order him to return to Braize, never interacting, influecning, or empowering anyone ever again.  It's hard to imagine how either country could fall out of Odium's hands in less than ten days, but I think it's a mistake to call it impossible.  The main possibilities that jumps out to me is the GhostBloods or some other third party to the Desolation coming into play, or the singers of Herdaz rebelling (since Kholinar seems to be the singers capital for now, Herdaz seems more likely to slip free of Odium) and breaking apart from the others that way.

I also have not ruled out Kaladin as the champion.  Most readers were assuming he would be, despite Sanderson's attempts to convince us he wouldn't be.  Dalinar makes it plain he was planning on being his own champion since at least Oathbringer.  Then Dalinar's conversation with Rayse setting terms for the contest and then his conversation at the end with Kaladin. It just seems like Sanderson is trying really hard to convince us.  And I'm not convinced.

Kaladin is headed to Shinovar with Szeth in book five, and the Shin have an Oathgate, which means, it is entirely possible that he could be back at Uritheru in time for the contest, possibly failing at retrieving Ishar in time to train Dalinar in BondSmithing.

Adolin as Odium's champion is a possibility that ties frighteningly well into my theory.  Aside from one brief sparring match, we've never seen Adolin and Khaladin actually fight.  It's stated that Adolin has trained Khaladin in using a sword, but we've never seen it.  As much as I don't want to think that Adolin would support Odium, Tarravangian is crafty enough that he could probably find a way to manipulate or coerce Adolin into complying. Taking Shallan as a hostage, for instance.  I actually think that it's a likely scenario. Tarravangian kidnaps Shallan to control Adolin, who lets himself be used as a champion with the idea that Dalinar won't be able to kill his own son. But as the twist, Kaladin steps in to do the job.  I hope it doesn't happen, but I think it's all too likely.

I like all of your theory, but I disagree with the first paragraph.

 

Odium isn't about the letter of the law, more of the spirit of the law. If he loses, he has to move out of Herdaz and Alethkar, if he was already out, then so be it. Technicalities are more something that would bound Honor.

But the part about Adolin becoming the Champion I really liked, willing doesn't mean you have to like it. I don't believe it's probable, but it is definitely possible.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Wuestenfuchs

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, CMac716 said:

So, what if it's a reverse loophole, a check-mate by none other than Cultivation. TOdium is still bound by the agreement he made with, well, himself. Odium the shard is bound by the agreement made with Taravangian that Karbranth and its people were to be left alone.

An agreement based on Taravangian serving Odium. He has done the very opposite.

 

[Letryx13]

13 hours ago, CMac716 said:

So, what if it's a reverse loophole, a check-mate by none other than Cultivation. TOdium is still bound by the agreement he made with, well, himself. Odium the shard is bound by the agreement made with Taravangian that Karbranth and its people were to be left alone.

 

If the Coalition chooses anyone from Karbranth, it's an auto-win. By defeating the champion TOdium wounds himself enough that Cultivation could shatter him, but if he doesn't, they get the thousand years on repeat, even easier if the blood of Karbranth disseminates over that millenia.

 

Biggest issue, only Taravangian and Odium for sure knew about the deal, maybe Cultivation can assume it because of the boon she granted tho, if she didn't plan for it to begin with

I actually love the idea of the deal Taravangian made with Odium being the very thing that ends up defeating him. I've had the same idea too, but there's another problem.  If Dalinar is able to ease the restrictions of Odium's promise to Honor (as he represents Honor), then Taravangian would have been able to ease his restrictions on Odium. And since Taravangian is now Odium, how would that work? Is he bound by a promise that he basically made to himself?  On the other hand, I think most of the Diagram organization knew about the deal, so Dalinar might find out from them.

My idea was to try and provoke Todium into taking action against Karbranth to "save" it, which violates his agreement with Rayse.  But your idea might be better. Rayse agreed to spare anyone born to Karbranth and their spouses.  We know that Liren was trained by a Karbranth surgeon. I wonder if Kaladin himself was born there.

My brother had a theory that the super smart day Taravangian was actually tricking his future self, and this feels similar. It's just so good, the characters own actions literally going against themselves.

6 hours ago, Wuestenfuchs said:

I like all of your theory, but I disagree with the first paragraph.

Odium isn't about the letter of the law, more of the spirit of the law. If he loses, he has to move out of Herdaz and Alethkar, if he was already out, then so be it. Technicalities are more something that would bound Honor.

But the part about Adolin becoming the Champion I really liked, willing doesn't mean you have to like it. I don't believe it's probable, but it is definitely possible.

That's the rub of the theory.  Dalinar's exact words were "...but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants in tact."  The part of stopping the war is a separate sentence. Obviously, Dalinar is attempting to get Odium out of Alethkar and Herdaz, but the terms state Odium will return them to Dalinar.

On top of that, Rayse was the one that said he honored contracts in spirit, not following the letter of his promises.  Taravangian seems to be a little more technical in his interpretation of contracts, judging by what he did to Wit in the epilogue. So I suppose it comes down to how literal the interpretation.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Letryx13
Misspelling

[NicheBurn]

What if during/before the contest of champions, Dalinar obtains/is forced to obtain a dawnshard? It might make him incapable of causing harm to others like it did to Hoid and allow Odium to render the contract void if both champions refuse to kill each other.

[Treach]

The biggest loophole I see isn’t really a loophole. Dalinar’s encounter with Ishar shows us Ishar, or presumably Navani, can actually take the bond of the contract from Dalinar. And I think the more impactful implication is, if they can take it from Dalinar, they could also take it from Odium. 
 

The other thing we know is that Dalinar “as the largest portion of Honor’s power” can release Odium from Honor’s bonds. So if one side wanted/needed, the other could actually release them from the contract. 
 

To the baby theory, I’m increasingly convinced people are taking it too literally. 
 

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

This is referring to Nightblood. The suckling child is nightblood, (the use of him and it tells us the child is not whose throat the knife is held to) and the wielder has a metaphorical knife to someone’s throat. All they have to do is let the blade slip from its sheathe, it’s blood (black smoke/mist/investiture) spill over his hands and onto the ground. Nightblood feasts off the wielder when it runs out of investiture (breaths) to drink from its victims, letting it claim the target would give it and the wielder more breath to draw. 
Szeth (I assume) is going to die because he refuses to unsheathe NB. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Treach

[Letryx13]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:58 PM, Treach said:

To the baby theory, I’m increasingly convinced people are taking it too literally. 
 

This is referring to Nightblood. The suckling child is nightblood, (the use of him and it tells us the child is not whose throat the knife is held to) and the wielder has a metaphorical knife to someone’s throat. All they have to do is let the blade slip from its sheathe, it’s blood (black smoke/mist/investiture) spill over his hands and onto the ground. Nightblood feasts off the wielder when it runs out of investiture (breaths) to drink from its victims, letting it claim the target would give it and the wielder more breath to draw. 
Szeth (I assume) is going to die because he refuses to unsheathe NB. 

I agree people are taking the baby theory too literally. But I think the passage about killing the child is a reference to Taravangian's actions, and how he's willing to sacrifice innocent people for Karbranth's sake. Doing something terrible for what could be construed as noble, but ultimately isn't noble at all.

I've heard this hypothetical of killing a child like that before, and it's usually in reference to people hiding for their lives. People fearing soldiers or something, and sacrificing a child that is crying or could cry and give away their position.  I think it's presented in the books to demonstrate that there are situations with no right answers, only terrible decisions to make; to try and show how Tarravangian has justified his actions.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Letryx13

[Chandlerhimself]

I think TOdium is going to try to purposely void the contract and then renegotiate with Dalinar. I think Dalinar and TOdium are both aligned in what they want. 

 

Rayse wanted to take over Roshar and use it as a breeding ground for a strong army. TOdium thinks Rayse's plans are foolish. If he thinks that the Roshar plan itself is foolish he can just force a draw. Then he could just tell Dalinar he is Taravagian, explain that he doesn't want to be on Roshar anymore, and give up his influence there. Dalinar ends the desolations and gets rid of Odium at no cost to anyone on Roshar. From his POV it is a great deal. Hoid might not like it, but assuming he can't convince Dalinar not to do it, it should be easy. 

[Elder]

I agree Taravangian is going to try and force Dalinar to breach contract and forfeit, setting Odium free.  So let’s look at the terms they have to meet:

Quote

“I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn’t some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language. A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death. They will meet on the top of Urithiru. No tricks, no lies.”

Giving us the rules of engagement and the location.

Quote

Odium waved dismissively at the contract Wit had drawn up. “No more talk of delays, of sending me away. Of half measures. We have a contest of champions on the tenth of next month,” Odium said. “At the tenth hour.”

Giving us the time

Quote

“My life? Odium, I intend to be my own champion. I’ll have died if you win.”

Indicating one of the intended Champions, though this may be less than binding.

Quote

He took a deep breath. “Final terms are these: [1] A contest of champions to the death. [2] On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. [3] [a] We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, [c] otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces.

Final Draft, enumeration added.

In order to get free, Odium must trick Dalinar into violating one of those 3 rules.

Rule #1.  To the death.  Of course, this can mean a few things.  One champion is going to kill the other is obvious, but there are alternatives.  It can just as easily be the loser is executed, by either human or divine action.  Checkers to the Death!  Literal Breakneck!  Sometimes the book makes this seem less like a duel and more like a contest of Bondsmithery.  Either way, this plays into the child theory nicely.

Rule #2.  The date.  If someone is late or absent, that could do it.  Kinda boring.  There are other reasons I don’t think this is it.

Rule #3.  Kinda complex, lots of stuff to play with here:

a.  Providing a willing champion.  If one side fails to provide a champion? Forfeit.  If one of the champions is unwilling?  Forfeit.  Dalinar intends to represent himself.  It would be right up in Taravangian’s wheelhouse to compromise Dalinar’s will to fight.  This does fit the child theory as well.

b.  Location.  Again, possible forfeit if a champion is absent.  Boring.

c.  No roughing up the opposition’s champion.  Lots of play here.  Pick a champion who is so provocative that someone from Dalinar’s camp attacks prematurely.  Storm’s, pick a champion who Dalinar’s side unwittingly hurts within the 10 days.  It’s a fertile ground to play with.

When all’s said and done, it seems like Taravangian’s trick will be in his own choice of Champion.  That’s what he poked Wit’s brain on after all. 

Quote

So interesting, Odium said. How did I never see you there, in all my planning … Tell me, whom would you pick as champion? If you were in my place? “Why does it matter?” Wit asked. Humor me. Wit cocked his head. There was something odd about this change in tone from Odium. Asking whom Wit would choose? Rayse wouldn’t care to know. Never mind, Odium said quickly. It matters not. Whomever I pick, they will destroy Dalinar’s champion! Then I will use him, and my minions on this planet, to finally do whatever I wish!

Could be the child.  Could be a provocateur.  Could be someone Odium throws at the Radiants during the 10 days so that they’ll breach contract without knowing it.  

[TheOtherDave]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:15 AM, slavagh said:

But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa.

Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

I can't decide if https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432-youtube-livestream-13/#e14016 suggests that you're wrong or if it's irrelevant.