Yolen's human diaspora

[AquaRegia he/him]

When and how did humans leave Yolen for other planets?

The Coppermind entry on Yolen tells us that

1) "Yolen is one of the oldest inhabited worlds in the cosmere, and the first on which humans have appeared."

2) "Following the Shattering, most Shards left Yolen to go their own separate ways.  Many humans have also abandoned it, spreading across the cosmere."

Implied is a timeline thus:  humans live only on Yolen --> Adonalsium --> The Shattering --> Humans and Shards emigrate to other systems.  Cool?

Rereading Arcanum Unbounded, I just stumbled across this claim, by Khriss, in the Scadrian System Prologue:

"It is one of only two places in the cosmere where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards."

Say what now?  Khriss is positively asserting that every single human-inhabited system known (in her "present") already had humans before any Shards showed up (except Scadrial and one other).

How did humans accomplish travel to other planetary systems without Shards?  How did they manage to get there FASTER than the Shards?

[Quantus he/him]

20 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

When and how did humans leave Yolen for other planets?

The Coppermind entry on Yolen tells us that

1) "Yolen is one of the oldest inhabited worlds in the cosmere, and the first on which humans have appeared."

2) "Following the Shattering, most Shards left Yolen to go their own separate ways.  Many humans have also abandoned it, spreading across the cosmere."

Implied is a timeline thus:  humans live only on Yolen --> Adonalsium --> The Shattering --> Humans and Shards emigrate to other systems.  Cool?

Rereading Arcanum Unbounded, I just stumbled across this claim, by Khriss, in the Scadrian System Prologue:

"It is one of only two places in the cosmere where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards."

Say what now?  Khriss is positively asserting that every single human-inhabited system known (in her "present") already had humans before any Shards showed up (except Scadrial and one other).

How did humans accomplish travel to other planetary systems without Shards?  How did they manage to get there FASTER than the Shards?

She may not be talking about Migration.  The populations of both Scadrial and Nalthis were Created by their Shards to mimic the Yolish, they arent actually of a linage that can trace back to Yolen.  And there were populations on other worlds besides Yolen prior to the shattering, even if it originated there (Cant find that WOB atm but I've seen it, sorry).

 

Quote

Questioner

Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis, but it's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation...

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ookla the Wandering

[AquaRegia he/him]

Yes, I get that part.  Humans were created by Shards on Scadrial and Nalthis. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Wandering said:

there were populations on other worlds besides Yolen prior to the shattering, even if it originated there (Cant find that WOB atm but I've seen it, sorry).

This is my question.  The implication is that humans definitely lived on Sel, on Threnody, on Ashyn, on Taldain, on First of the Sun, and likely others, BEFORE the Shattering.  When and how did those migrations happen?

Are we supposed to assume humans could travel through the Cognitive Realm without Shards or Perpendicularities?  Or that they had Physical Realm interstellar travel in the past?  Neither one makes any sense to me.

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

Yes, I get that part.  Humans were created by Shards on Scadrial and Nalthis. 

This is my question.  The implication is that humans definitely lived on Sel, on Threnody, on Ashyn, on Taldain, on First of the Sun, and likely others, BEFORE the Shattering.  When and how did those migrations happen?

Are we supposed to assume humans could travel through the Cognitive Realm without Shards or Perpendicularities?  Or that they had Physical Realm interstellar travel in the past?  Neither one makes any sense to me.

There might have been pre-shattering magics that allowed people to make perpendicularities.

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla of axi said:

Yes, I get that part.  Humans were created by Shards on Scadrial and Nalthis. 

This is my question.  The implication is that humans definitely lived on Sel, on Threnody, on Ashyn, on Taldain, on First of the Sun, and likely others, BEFORE the Shattering.  When and how did those migrations happen?

Are we supposed to assume humans could travel through the Cognitive Realm without Shards or Perpendicularities?  Or that they had Physical Realm interstellar travel in the past?  Neither one makes any sense to me.

The Former, I assume, since they did have access to several forms of Investiture: Lightweaving, Microkniesis, Aethers, Dawnshards, Investiture-in-gems (may or may not have been present off Roshar), Dragon magic (shapeshifting at least, maybe other stuff).  

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Ookla of axi said:

Are we supposed to assume humans could travel through the Cognitive Realm without Shards or Perpendicularities?  Or that they had Physical Realm interstellar travel in the past?  Neither one makes any sense to me.

Why without Perpendicularities? Adonalsium invested multiple worlds, like Roshar, it's highly likely that his Perpendicularities were scadered around Cosmere, or even created by Adonalsium purposefully. And also there are some way of creating perpendicularities, either by magic systems we don't know about, or stacking lots of Investiture in one place. I don't think they had Interstellar travel.

[Ixthos he/him]

It would be interesting if Dragonsteel involved, as one of the plots within it, humans fleeing Yolen because of whatever issue eventually forced the Shattering - so many people saw their only option being to flee or to kill their deity. I believe many of the planets were stated to have been named before the Shattering - I need to look that up again - but that could explain it, if there were worldhoppers prior to the Shattering, exploring the Cosmere either to escape or find a solution. Perhaps gathering the Dawnshards required travelling to other planets, with the Dawnshards originally being scattered throughout the Cosmere - so a quest plot that foreshadows many of the other worlds in the Cosmere, with primordial Roshar, for example, being visited, or Threnody scouted by Uli Da before she went to claim it, and Bavadin, as a mortal, inspecting Taldain.

[AquaRegia he/him]

Thanks all!  I guess I've been fixated on Perpendicularities being associated with Shards for so long I couldn't conceive of such things predating them, which is silly since Adonalsium contained all the Investiture that they now hold separately... and presumably whatever came BEFORE Adonalsium could have connected the Realms as well.

I don't know why I'm surprised every time my incomplete understanding of the cosmere is shown to be incomplete.  Ego, anyone?  It's only happened about a thousand times already LOL

8 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

whatever issue eventually forced the Shattering - so many people saw their only option being to flee or to kill their deity

This idea both intrigues and terrifies me.  I hope that means it will make for an amazing story someday!

[KaladinWorldsinger]

10 hours ago, Ookla of axi said:

Thanks all!  I guess I've been fixated on Perpendicularities being associated with Shards for so long I couldn't conceive of such things predating them, which is silly since Adonalsium contained all the Investiture that they now hold separately... and presumably whatever came BEFORE Adonalsium could have connected the Realms as well.

I don't know why I'm surprised every time my incomplete understanding of the cosmere is shown to be incomplete.  Ego, anyone?  It's only happened about a thousand times already LOL

This idea both intrigues and terrifies me.  I hope that means it will make for an amazing story someday!

Isn't there a far simpler explanation too? That Adonalsium created humans on many planets independently to begin with? Or do we have confirmation that Yolish are the first human race and the only human race

[Ixthos he/him]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Isn't there a far simpler explanation too? That Adonalsium created humans on many planets independently to begin with? Or do we have confirmation that Yolish are the first human race and the only human race

 

Strongly implied that most humans elsewhere in the Cosmere came from Yolen, with only a few exceptions (though see below in that those few exceptions might imply they made more):

Quote

halo6819

What planet did humans originate on? Or did they originate on Scadrial when Preservation and Ruin got together?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans did not originate on Scadrial, because they were on Yolen, which is a planet before Adonalsium-- the story that takes place before Adonalsium was Shattered. They may have been on other planets, but they-- the very first ones you would care about are probably on Yolen.

Shadows of Self San Diego signing (Oct. 8, 2015)

 

Quote

Zach G

Dunno if you can answer this now, but if everyone is from Yolen way back when, is there a migration story?

Brandon Sanderson

Not all humans originated on Yolen, but the first humans were there. Watch the books for myths that hint at more.

General Twitter 2016 (Jan. 3, 2016)

 

Quote

Aethling

Where did humanity originate in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

The first planet with humans on it was Yolen.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Interestingly, humans are stated to be on other worlds before the Shattering, though perhaps those are only relatively recent colonies, though he implies some believe they were separate creations:

Quote

ConserveGuy

Hi Brandon I don't know if you will answer, but. Did "earth" ever exist in the cosmere? There seems to be humans on all the planets. so where did humans come from? or even the idea of humans?

Brandon Sanderson

Earth did not exist in the cosmere. Humans existed on Yolen (and other planets) before the shattering of Adonalsium, and it is assumed Adonalsium created them.

From a writing perspective, stepping back, I feel like other book series (like the Wheel of Time, Pern, Shannara) really covered the idea of, "This is Earth and/or earth people in another dimension/after an apocalypse/or far in the future." It's been a common enough theme in fantasy that I felt I wanted not to touch on it. So there are no plans to connect the cosmere to Earth in any way.

/r/fantasy AMA 2017 (May 30, 2017)

 

Which means Scadrial isn't one of the planet being considered here.

 

And an interesting wrinkle, depending on how subtle Brandon is being in how he phrased this, but before the Shattering their was worldhopping, but "very very rarely":

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Before the Shattering, was Worldhopping from Yolen possible to other worlds like Roshar, etc.?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm gonna say yes, it was possible--but it was a lot more difficult to pull off. Not nearly as frequently as now.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

Quote

Questioner

Before the Shattering, were people already able to worldhop from Yolen to the other planets like Roshar, and so on?

Brandon Sanderson

It was possible, it did not happen nearly on the extent that it happens now. It's possible. I would say that, I don't know if there, yeah very very very few instances.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

So that really would seem to depend on whether a few rare instances, followed by a massive exodus, would count as "a few instances," or if that completely rules out large scale travel, even if only briefly.

Brandon is fond of carefully wording his responses to throw people off (remember the question of Kelsier joining the Ghostbloods, and how Brandon's wording implied a hypothetical possibility of joining them and then rising to become their leader, as opposed to the now implied reality that Kelsier founded them?) so some of this could imply he's just talking about Scadrial for the earlier quotes, but that last quote very much is subject to personal opinion on what would constitute a few instances, and if one ore more exoduses over the entire span of time prior to the Shattering would count or not - or if some force swept up a large group of humans prior to the Shattering and placed them on other worlds would count as well, if the humans didn't have a say in it or didn't know what was happening.

[trav]

Ado create humans on Yolen then eventually winds up creating them on other planets too.

Migration is not required at all and I even doubt it happened. Else each world would have some knowledge of Yolen/Realmatic Theory right of the bat. Which does not seem to be the case.

[AquaRegia he/him]

We've been told that many current cosmere languages derive from Yolish tongues, which has always caused me to assume migration... but I suppose it's not necessarily inconsistent with divine creation either.

[Treamayne]

On 12/16/2022 at 0:50 PM, Ookla of axi said:

We've been told that many current cosmere languages derive from Yolish tongues, which has always caused me to assume migration... but I suppose it's not necessarily inconsistent with divine creation either.

It's likely a combination of multiple elements. You can have lingual migration (especially vocabulary; over grammar/syntax) without population migration. Sometimes it's the "common root" causing similar derivations and sometimes it's cognates being incorporated into language (and possibly altered/shifted). Examples:

• Tea - In dozens of languages of the eastern hemisphere the word for tea (chai, cha, jai, etc.) is so close in pronunciation it can often be understood between languages. Many of these languages do not share a common root (e.g. Mandarin, Pashtu, Hindi, Nihongo are all different language families) but the similarity could come from vocabulary sharing and cognate drift
• Kindergarten - A direct German cognate, but so assimilated into English that a large percentage of the population no longer recognizes it as a word with a foreign origin (unlike jalapeno or samurai which are similarly incorporated, but still recognized as cognates)
• Succotash (a reverse cognate) is an example of a local vocabulary being incorporated into a migration population; with usage spreading backward to the migration origin. It's accepted by most English speakers as a non-cognate, despite originating with American Natives and drifting backward to Europe.

I would imagine that it went something like:

Spoiler

• Humans on Yolen (either created or evolved)
• Ado creates or moves humans to other worlds as well (such as Ashyn)
• Shattering
• Taldain and Scadrial are created (possibly Nalthis)
  • Humans are created on Scadrial by Preservation/Ruin to mimic Yolen
  • Humans are either created on Taldain, or moved there by Autonomy
  • Nalthis is either extant, with humans created there by Endowment or she makes Nalthis to create humans there
• Humans migrate to/from multiple origins/destinations
  • Possibly including one or two of the Iriali Long Trail migrations
  • Langauge mixing and vocabulary drift begin
• Ashyn Migration to Roshar
  • Worldhopping begins to affect language and vocabulary exchange
• Iriali migrate to Roshar from an unknown source outside the Rosharan System