Mistborn V.S. 3rd Ideal Lightweaver

[Frustration he/him]

34 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I gave a potential radius. Do you disagree with it?

Yes, given the number of onlookers watching Sazed. Not to mention that it probably never got mor than a few degrees of rotation.

Vin passed out headbutting a guy, but didn't for this, ergo this must have been less force.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes, given the number of onlookers watching Sazed. Not to mention that it probably never got mor than a few degrees of rotation.

Vin passed out headbutting a guy, but didn't for this, ergo this must have been less force.

Doesn't matter how little rotation it was (and she cleared the whole courtyard, so it was probably more than just a few degrees), she'd still have to survive that force. And the onlookers were on the edge and outside of the square, while the koloss clumped at the middle to attack Vin.

Beyond that, after reading Vin's headbutt scene, I have to say that it was not the headbutt that knocked her out. She was already injured, and Pewter was all that was keeping her on her feet. She'd gotten hit by a coin and was about to pass out even with pewter when being strangled. After she was knocked out, no one mentioned her having a concussion, or a cracked skull. Just cracked ribs. When she woke up, her side hurt and neck ached (because she'd been strangled) but her head? nothing. It wasn't the headbutt, it was running out of the pewter that was the only thing keeping her going.

[Frustration he/him]

30 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Doesn't matter how little rotation it was (and she cleared the whole courtyard, so it was probably more than just a few degrees), she'd still have to survive that force. And the onlookers were on the edge and outside of the square, while the koloss clumped at the middle to attack Vin.

Actually, it doesn't matter. The earth isn't exercising any stronger pull on the moon, just one continuous pull of the same strength. Ergo, Vin doesn't need anything stronger than a simple pull on the gate 

31 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Beyond that, after reading Vin's headbutt scene, I have to say that it was not the headbutt that knocked her out. She was already injured, and Pewter was all that was keeping her on her feet. She'd gotten hit by a coin and was about to pass out even with pewter when being strangled. After she was knocked out, no one mentioned her having a concussion, or a cracked skull. Just cracked ribs. When she woke up, her side hurt and neck ached (because she'd been strangled) but her head? nothing. It wasn't the headbutt, it was running out of the pewter that was the only thing keeping her going.

I'll look into that.

[Immortal Platypus]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Jasnah didn't become good at soulcasting until she had years of practice, see RoW 755 where she mentions that when she was younger she tried begging for change, which she notes as being ineffective at the end of OB. It wasn't natural skill.

i know, that's my point. They aren't naturally skilled and most Lightweavers don't try to train with it while they're 3rd Ideal, they'd rather focus on Lightweaving.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Being of Cacophony said:

i know, that's my point. They aren't naturally skilled and most Lightweavers don't try to train with it while they're 3rd Ideal, they'd rather focus on Lightweaving.

Then I can argue most Mistborn don't train with Chromium or Bendalloy, they mostly focus on the first 14 metals.

[Immortal Platypus]

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Then I can argue most Mistborn don't train with Chromium or Bendalloy, they mostly focus on the first 14 metals.

I don't know about that, I would train with them if I was a mistborn because they're freakin useful.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Being of Cacophony said:

I don't know about that, I would train with them if I was a mistborn because they're freakin useful.

And I would train with soulcasting if I was a Lightweaver, because it's freaking useful.

[NameIess]

13 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Actually, it doesn't matter. The earth isn't exercising any stronger pull on the moon, just one continuous pull of the same strength. Ergo, Vin doesn't need anything stronger than a simple pull on the gate 

You know how to calculate the strength of that "continuous pull of the same strength"? mass times velocity squared divided by the radius. Which is exactly what I did. Do you disagree with my numbers? What numbers would you use?

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Actually, it doesn't matter. The earth isn't exercising any stronger pull on the moon, just one continuous pull of the same strength. Ergo, Vin doesn't need anything stronger than a simple pull on the gate 

Actually Moon is moving away from Earth at the rate of  3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year, so the Earth's pull on the Moon is weakening as the distance is increasing F=(GMm)/D^2. Also orbit of the Moon is not perfectly spherical, and its distance from Earth oscillate from 362,600 km to 405,400 km, which generate different gravitational pulls on the Moon. Ergo you are wrong.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Actually Moon is moving away from Earth at the rate of  3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year, so the Earth's pull on the Moon is weakening as the distance is increasing F=(GMm)/D^2. Also orbit of the Moon is not perfectly spherical, and its distance from Earth oscillate from 362,600 km to 405,400 km, which generate different gravitational pulls on the Moon. Ergo you are wrong.

Getting closer and further from a lurcher causes differences in the strength of their pulls.

[NameIess]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Getting closer and further from a lurcher causes differences in the strength of their pulls.

So? The strength Vin would have to pull with is still that described by the centripetal force equation.

[Immortal Platypus]

On 12/21/2022 at 11:38 AM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And I would train with soulcasting if I was a Lightweaver, because it's freaking useful.

yes, it is useful. Sorry, that wasn't the best way for me to put it. It is easier (i would guess because of how the books are written) to practice with those metals than it is to practice soulcasting.

[Frustration he/him]

So something I just found is that you can sever steel lines with a shardblade

Spoiler

Oneyespike (paraphrased)

Can a Shardblade interrupt iron or steel lines?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*after mulling it over a bit, he was very interested in this question* "It would be theoretically possible, because steel lines manifest themselves on the Spiritual Realm. Also, there are other things that can cut/interfere with steel lines."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/70/#e2796

 

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/22/2022 at 2:33 PM, Being of Cacophony said:

yes, it is useful. Sorry, that wasn't the best way for me to put it. It is easier (i would guess because of how the books are written) to practice with those metals than it is to practice soulcasting.

I think not just how the books are written, I think Allomancy is just flat out easier to learn/more intuitive - I don't know if that's inherent difficulty of Surgebinding or due to slow development/deepening of the Nahel bond (maybe the latter, as Moash could fly with an Honorblade really fast). Radiant-style Surgebinding, at least, takes a long time to learn/develop.

Some Allomantic powers are very easy to learn because they're basically "on, flare, or off"* (copper, pewter, tin, atium definitely... we haven't seen basic use of chromium but it probably is the same) or just simple modifiers of other powers (duralumin and likely nicrosil).

It's iron/steel and zinc/brass that really seem to require training ... and even there, while we should probably exclude Vin as an extra-special case with unusual Allomantic intuition, Kelsier has skill with iron/steel near the peak of what is possible short of savantism (he's doing non center of mass Pushes/Pulls) 2 years after Snapping.

(Kelsier also killed a noble Mistborn 3 months after Snapping...)

And I think there are iron and steel, as well as pewter, Mistings fighting in the defense of Urteau the day they learn they've Snapped, just like the atium mistings at the Homeland.

 *Not that there isn't skill with e.g. tin - Spook makes it clear there is - but you can get the basic effect super easily. I think basic use of time bubbles is similar, it seems Marasi in AoL didn't really practice with her power as she was embarrassed of it.

--

Despite all that, even if a 3rd ideal Lightweaver can't Soulcast in combat (and they may well not be able to) with illusions they can likely win *with time to prepare*. It's more 1st/2nd ideals that will be in deep trouble due to slow learning/development of Surge use.

Edited February 2, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think not just how the books are written, I think Allomancy is just flat out easier to learn/more intuitive - I don't know if that's inherent difficulty of Surgebinding or due to slow development/deepening of the Nahel bond (maybe the latter, as Moash could fly with an Honorblade really fast). Radiant-style Surgebinding, at least, takes a long time to learn/develop.

Some Allomantic powers are very easy to learn because they're basically "on, flare, or off"* (copper, pewter, tin, atium definitely... we haven't seen basic use of chromium but it probably is the same) or just simple modifiers of other powers (duralumin and likely nicrosil).

It's iron/steel and zinc/brass that really seem to require training ... and even there, while we should probably exclude Vin as an extra-special case with unusual Allomantic intuition, Kelsier has skill with iron/steel near the peak of what is possible short of savantism (he's doing non center of mass Pushes/Pulls) 2 years after Snapping.

(Kelsier also killed a noble Mistborn 3 months after Snapping...)

And I think there are iron and steel, as well as pewter, Mistings fighting in the defense of Urteau the day they learn they've Snapped, just like the atium mistings at the Homeland.

 *Not that there isn't skill with e.g. tin - Spook makes it clear there is - but you can get the basic effect super easily. I think basic use of time bubbles is similar, it seems Marasi in AoL didn't really practice with her power as she was embarrassed of it.

You forget that we skip over allomancers learning to use their powers.

Vin and Elend both had months off screen where they learned how to use their abilities. Kelsier also spent months learning

[cometaryorbit]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You forget that we skip over allomancers learning to use their powers.

Vin and Elend both had months off screen where they learned how to use their abilities. Kelsier also spent months learning

Vin only had really used brass and pewter before, she did the city wall jump on her literal first day with iron/steel. But she's exceptionally intuitive with Allomancy, so I wouldn't use her as an example... but Kelsier said he was.taught the same way.

Kelsier's 3 months in in 11th metal, sure, but that's way sooner than Kaladin's time from first beginning to bond Syl to being able to fly in WoR.

Skilled use of Allomancy takes time (though 2 years is enough for Kelsier to hit what's apparently about the peak of non-savant power, I think WoK and WoR cover more time than that and Kaladin's clearly not peaked by end of WoR) but basic uses of many powers are possible day-of-knowing-you-have-it. The Mist snapped Mistings in HoA show that.

Edited February 2, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kelsier's 3 months in in 11th metal, sure, but that's way sooner than Kaladin's time from first beginning to bond Syl to being able to fly in WoR.

Kaladin did that without a teacher, and his squires were using their powers adequately within a week.

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Mist snapped Mistings in HoA show that.

Atium doesn't require skill to use.

[cometaryorbit]

Just now, Frustration said:

Kaladin did that without a teacher, and his squires were using their powers adequately within a week.

Atium doesn't require skill to use.

I think the squire bond with Bridge 4 had been forming for much, much more than a week. I don't think the time it takes Kaladin is literally all learning, I think the bond is building.

It wasn't just atium, there were pewter and I think steel and iron mistings recently Mist snapped in the defense of Fadrex City.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think the squire bond with Bridge 4 had been forming for much, much more than a week.

They weren't able to draw in light until Kaladin said the third ideal.

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

It wasn't just atium, there were pewter and I think steel and iron mistings recently Mist snapped in the defense of Fadrex City.

There's a difference between being able to use abilities and having the skill necessary to use them effectively

[cometaryorbit]

I'm pretty sure you can use pewter and similar "on/flare/off" metals at pretty much full effectiveness immediately.

Iron and steel are trickier, granted, but what Kelsier says about his own training when teaching Vin suggests that the city wall jump on your first day, while probably more extreme than what your average noble Mistborn would go through, is feasible.

It's not super relevant for this thread, though, since the Lightweaver probably doesn't need combat Soulcasting. Illusions intelligently used would probably let them get into range and one good Shardblade hit kills the Mistborn- pewter won't save them from that.

Now if it was a Mistborn 2 months after Snapping vs a 2nd ideal Lightweaver, that would be totally different, and much more likely to go the other way.

Edited February 3, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm pretty sure you can use pewter and similar "on/flare/off" metals at pretty much full effectiveness immediately.

Iron and steel are trickier, granted, but what Kelsier says about his own training when teaching Vin suggests that the city wall jump on your first day, while probably more extreme than what your average noble Mistborn would go through, is feasible.

It's not super relevant for this thread, though, since the Lightweaver probably doesn't need combat Soulcasting. Illusions intelligently used would probably let them get into range and one good Shardblade hit kills the Mistborn- pewter won't save them from that.

Now if it was a Mistborn 2 months after Snapping vs a 2nd ideal Lightweaver, that would be totally different, and much more likely to go the other way.

Do you think copper and/or bronze would do anything for the mistborn here?   I don't know if of illusions are considered active use of investiture once left to themselves or not but I kind of thought bronze would give the mistborn a pretty good idea of what is real and what isn't.  

Also with steel or iron sight it would be harder to fool the mistborn through illusions as well... 

I know that all depends on the illusions but I think the mistborn is one of the best equiped systems for seeing through those illusions.  

That isn't even counting metals that give spiritual sight like gold or electrum.  Seeing zero spiritual shadow would be a dead give away even if non of the other metals count.  

[cometaryorbit]

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think copper and/or bronze would do anything for the mistborn here?   I don't know if of illusions are considered active use of investiture once left to themselves or not but I kind of thought bronze would give the mistborn a pretty good idea of what is real and what isn't.  

Also with steel or iron sight it would be harder to fool the mistborn through illusions as well... 

I know that all depends on the illusions but I think the mistborn is one of the best equiped systems for seeing through those illusions.  

That isn't even counting metals that give spiritual sight like gold or electrum.  Seeing zero spiritual shadow would be a dead give away even if non of the other metals count.  

Hmmm. That is a very good point.

I think it depends. Most Mistborn, I think we're told, don't generally use bronze since they have copper on most of the time (Marsh complains in TFE that Vin is already picking up the Mistborn attitude that bronze is useless). I'd expect the illusions to give off different pulses than the actual Lightweaver, but most Mistborn might not get that.

I doubt illusions would just vanish in a coppercloud, if nothing else because Roshar magic tends to be high Investiture and copperclouds can be pierced by superior power.

Gold only gives visions of yourself, no help here.

But yeah, lack of iron/steel lines would confirm which was the real Lightweaver if they had any non-Shardblade metal on them. Electrum would also help if we're assuming a Mistborn trained with it enough to use it for more than just anti-atium - they'd see the real Lightweaver stab them with a Shardblade in time to know that one was real.

Hmm, that's probably enough to change my vote on this - if illusions won't work, the Lightweaver has no way to get into range and so the Mistborn will eventually run them out of Stormlight with coins (assuming that their steel lasts longer, but while steel is relatively fast-burning they only really Push in short bursts; in practice we never see people run out except for duralumin or other extreme situations).

The Mistborn still can't afford to mess up, but that probably is enough to give them a slight advantage - at least if they're either trained in using iron/steel lines for spatial awareness, trained in electrum, or using bronze rather than copper.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think it depends. Most Mistborn, I think we're told, don't generally use bronze since they have copper on most of the time (Marsh complains in TFE that Vin is already picking up the Mistborn attitude that bronze is useless). I'd expect the illusions to give off different pulses than the actual Lightweaver, but most Mistborn might not get that.

I would actually expect that bronze would not be able to really pickup illusions, Lightweavers can avoid being noticed by the alerter spren, suggesting they are 'quiet'.
With enough training, or great sensitivity I would expect it would be possible, but it would be non-trivial.

Quote

Hmm, that's probably enough to change my vote on this - if illusions won't work, the Lightweaver has no way to get into range and so the Mistborn will eventually run them out of Stormlight with coins (assuming that their steel lasts longer, but while steel is relatively fast-burning they only really Push in short bursts; in practice we never see people run out except for duralumin or other extreme situations).

Not exactly true, both Vin and Wax are running out of steel relatively commonly, and carry additional vials to help with that.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmmm. That is a very good point.

I think it depends. Most Mistborn, I think we're told, don't generally use bronze since they have copper on most of the time (Marsh complains in TFE that Vin is already picking up the Mistborn attitude that bronze is useless). I'd expect the illusions to give off different pulses than the actual Lightweaver, but most Mistborn might not get that.

I doubt illusions would just vanish in a coppercloud, if nothing else because Roshar magic tends to be high Investiture and copperclouds can be pierced by superior power.

Gold only gives visions of yourself, no help here.

But yeah, lack of iron/steel lines would confirm which was the real Lightweaver if they had any non-Shardblade metal on them. Electrum would also help if we're assuming a Mistborn trained with it enough to use it for more than just anti-atium - they'd see the real Lightweaver stab them with a Shardblade in time to know that one was real.

Hmm, that's probably enough to change my vote on this - if illusions won't work, the Lightweaver has no way to get into range and so the Mistborn will eventually run them out of Stormlight with coins (assuming that their steel lasts longer, but while steel is relatively fast-burning they only really Push in short bursts; in practice we never see people run out except for duralumin or other extreme situations).

The Mistborn still can't afford to mess up, but that probably is enough to give them a slight advantage - at least if they're either trained in using iron/steel lines for spatial awareness, trained in electrum, or using bronze rather than copper.

When questioned about a character Brandon mentioned that being a gold misting would be viable as sight via the spiritual shadows but gold would burn fast enough to really start to warp you.  Everything physical except alluminum has a spiritual shadow.  

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

I would actually expect that bronze would not be able to really pickup illusions, Lightweavers can avoid being noticed by the alerter spren, suggesting they are 'quiet'.
With enough training, or great sensitivity I would expect it would be possible, but it would be non-trivial.

Not exactly true, both Vin and Wax are running out of steel relatively commonly, and carry additional vials to help with that.

My only comment on that is what we see in the books is written to be exciting.  

Spoiler

Questioner

When Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, is that something you've worked out, how much Stormlight should have, and how much each move takes?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what I do is, I actually write the thing first, and then I tell my assistant, "Work out how much he needs," and then I give him that much. I work backward. Yeah, I do that a lot in books, but that's a little bit seeing how the sausage is made, there.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Every fight is written in a way to have the characters run out of juice.  Vin and Wax are using shavings of metal... I would argue its easier to carry far more metal than it is to carry far more spheres. 

Swallowing a ton of metal and then not using it is dangerous to the misting/ mistborn.  Without aluminum they can't just wipe it out of their system.  Use it or suffer heavy metal poisoning.  

Plus when fighting other metalborn your backup metal on your person can instantly be turned into a weapon against you.  

Both of these drawbacks are nonfactors in a fight with all metals (as the mistborn could have taken pill bottles worth of metals before the fight so long as they have aluminum to cleanse it all with if not used) and there is no threat of other metalborn.  

Either way Brandon specifically writes his fights backwards to have his characters just have enough in the tank to do what has to be done.  Even if they run out they conveniently find the way to win at the last second by tricking atium or being chosen in that moment to breathe in a shardic nebulizer.  

 

[therunner he/him]

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Every fight is written in a way to have the characters run out of juice.  Vin and Wax are using shavings of metal... I would argue its easier to carry far more metal than it is to carry far more spheres.

It is easier to carry more metal true, but a person can carry enough spheres to last literal hours while using Surges non-stop (Kaladin's flight to Hearthstone at beginning of OB). Since Lightweaving consumes relatively little compared to Lashings, Lightweaver creating only Illusions could possibly outlast Mistborn.

Quote

Either way Brandon specifically writes his fights backwards to have his characters just have enough in the tank to do what has to be done.  Even if they run out they conveniently find the way to win at the last second by tricking atium or being chosen in that moment to breathe in a shardic nebulizer.  

Fair point, however using that fights are done according to narrative conventions and tropes as argument feels, odd?
Effectively every fight is determined beforehand through narrative, so from that perspective nearly nothing in the books outside of Arcanum should be taken as evidence, which then makes these threads completely moot.