Roshar deserves to lose

[nyxvoid]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

No they did not? What are you referring to?
The only thing they found is a way to kill spren permanently, which however also works against Fused.

i meant same thing but phrased it keep spoilers minimum. you see ,spren donot get born often . and even when they are "born" they need centuries worth time to mature and be able to make bonds with humans. if they  make premature bonds they get hurt badly and i think even die, when they lose their radiant. sylphrena is an example of premature bonding.

on the other hand odium can convert any singer into fused at his leisure . 

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You mean the huge monsters being scared of a Radient? They cool and scary, but not that powerful tbf. 

 

they did seem scared of radiants but then  again they are big and massive .they can smoother normal armies by simply walking over them . radiants might be able to kill them easily but it will still take time . imagine what a thunderclast would do to human army in few seconds or minutes before radiants kill them. and when they fall they might take down even more soldiers .

[StormingTexan he/him]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I haven't had any of that yet in stormlight.  The most significant death so far was Sadeas and I almost miss him as a villain because in 32 hours of listening I have yet to see a comparable obstacle pop up

I think your opinion on this will change when you finish RoW. I will admit there is a good chunk of OB that really dragged for me but the ending kind of makes up for it. A lot of the things you are concerned about get resolved in RoW in my opinion and I think will be even more ramped up in SA5. Things get introduced that I think will tip the scales of balance.  

[Frustration he/him]

9 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

betrayal of sadeas army in oathbringer was bad . It made alithi as nation look bad. they were on verge of losing support of rest of kingdoms 

They don't need the other kingdoms other than for Oathgates. 1 Radiant is worth hundreds of Fused, and thousands of regular soldiers.

9 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

what about thunderclasts. they are huge and . huge. and there are lot of thunderclasts. that  we have yet to see.

How does a thunderclast deal with a windrunner? They can't fly, nor do they have special powers. They are cur by a shardblade the same way regular stone is, so I'd guess that surgebinding works on them too, which means that pretty much any order can kill them at their leisure.

9 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

you know , in ROW , rabonial tells venli that most powerful of their ranks were yet to awaken.

That was the end of OB, not RoW. And by this point the most powerful should have awakened.

9 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

AND then there is a point that odium can convert any singer into brand new fused and they will be new brains that could survive madness for next thousand year or so. true , new fused would have to learn from scratch ,but each fused has one surge. it would be easier to learn one surge than it is to learn two surges and their combinations . Odium did'nt want to make new fused in past but,,, you guys know that  odium has  changed his mind till the end of ROW and he could bring new fused at any time . and then there is matter of gods .

That would make him weaker and allow Cultivation to kill him.

And he didn't change his mind about making new fused.

And even if he did The Stormfather can make new honorspren the same way.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Taln is in the same state and he still was able to catch the dart with impossible speed.  Even the craziest Fused would most likely still be able to fight - muscle memory

Taln can defend himself, but he couldn't attack to save his life. And he was way better than the fused.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No they really aren't. 1 Windrunner, who was barely conscious, and had lost most of his power routinely beat multiple fully powered opponents, including a guy who could teleport. Given what we see 4th oath Kaladin on his own has the power to stop Odium's entire force, it isn't even close.

Kaladin is a special case- he actually accessed voidlight in that case because Odium was trying to win him over as a champion after the pain of his close friends death. So he wasn’t totally devoid of power in that situation. Plus he was close to the next ideal which gave him additional power.

[Primeival Chaos he/him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They don't need the other kingdoms other than for Oathgates. 1 Radiant is worth hundreds of Fused, and thousands of regular soldiers.

I feel like you are overestimating the ability of the average Radiant. Thus far, we have seen mostly the peak of the skill level of the Radiants. Kaladin, Jasnah, etc.

Hundreds of Fused is definitely an overstatement, even for Kaladin or Jasnah. The Fused are still highly skilled. Think Leshwi, or the Pursuer. Radiants are definitely overpowered, but Fused are nothing to joke around with. Most of the relatively new Radiants are 100% outclassed by Fused.

But I do think that the strongest Radiants like Kaladin and Jasnah are worth many Fused

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

I feel like you are overestimating the ability of the average Radiant. Thus far, we have seen mostly the peak of the skill level of the Radiants. Kaladin, Jasnah, etc.

Hundreds of Fused is definitely an overstatement, even for Kaladin or Jasnah. The Fused are still highly skilled. Think Leshwi, or the Pursuer. Radiants are definitely overpowered, but Fused are nothing to joke around with. Most of the relatively new Radiants are 100% outclassed by Fused.

But I do think that the strongest Radiants like Kaladin and Jasnah are worth many Fused

So when comparing systems would you say that the peak of radiant potential has been reached with Kaladin and Jasnah and speaking at and beyond their capabilities is an ever further stretch for some average vs average vs battles?  

[rabidhexley]

21 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Kaladin is a special case- he actually accessed voidlight in that case because Odium was trying to win him over as a champion after the pain of his close friends death. So he wasn’t totally devoid of power in that situation. Plus he was close to the next ideal which gave him additional power.

8 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

I feel like you are overestimating the ability of the average Radiant. Thus far, we have seen mostly the peak of the skill level of the Radiants. Kaladin, Jasnah, etc.

Hundreds of Fused is definitely an overstatement, even for Kaladin or Jasnah. The Fused are still highly skilled. Think Leshwi, or the Pursuer. Radiants are definitely overpowered, but Fused are nothing to joke around with. Most of the relatively new Radiants are 100% outclassed by Fused.

But I do think that the strongest Radiants like Kaladin and Jasnah are worth many Fused

I agree, I think anyone using Kaladin (or Jasnah) as a measuring stick for what to expect from Radiants by and large is vastly overestimating their martial prowess. Kaladin cannot be seen as the standard for what we expect an "average" Windrunner (or average anyone really) to be capable of in terms of martial skill.

 

WoK and WoR make it abundantly clear that he's a prodigy among prodigies, there haven't been any human characters even close in terms of raw talent. Everyone who ever witnesses him actually fight in the first two books basically has their minds blown. Before having access to any surges he was a historical figure in the making if it wasn't for cultural bigotry. And the rest of the cast seems pretty much in agreement that Kaladin is their best fighter (in terms of martial capability) by a pretty wide margin if it wasn't for his difficulties with mental health.

 

But, he can't single handedly win a war against an ever-growing (more, powerful fused are still waking up to join the conflict) force of enemies that can't actually be defeated by strength of arms alone. Kaladin also doesn't have the power to stop Odium's entire force, like, not at all. He's a single, incredibly skilled guy who only needs to be killed once. He's made a very good showing, he's definitely better than any fused we've seen thus far, but it's mostly luck on humanity's part that Kaladin exists during this time period and hasn't been wasted by an unlucky fight.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Kaladin is a special case- he actually accessed voidlight in that case because Odium was trying to win him over as a champion after the pain of his close friends death. So he wasn’t totally devoid of power in that situation. Plus he was close to the next ideal which gave him additional power.

And? He had lost most of his power, barely able to heal, and unable to use basic lashings.

1 hour ago, Primeival Chaos said:

I feel like you are overestimating the ability of the average Radiant. Thus far, we have seen mostly the peak of the skill level of the Radiants. Kaladin, Jasnah, etc.

And you know Jasnah is the peak of Elsecaller skill because? And Stonewards were noted(WoR 430) to take after Taln, the best fighter ever.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And? He had lost most of his power, barely able to heal, and unable to use basic lashings.

Yeah but he was underestimated and he is insanely good / skilled at fighting. My point here though is that he actually had a whole lot of power that he was able to draw upon, which kept him from dying. His emotional connection to Odium gave him access to voidlight, which is how he survived the situation that really should have killed him. I agree that he should not have been able to beat those odds, but I am saying there is a purpose here. Note his glowing eyes of red and gold, not blue. It's foreshadowing something to come in book five

Spoiler

Kaladin becomes Odium's champion and tries to sacrifice himself to protect everyone else, but Dalinar won't kill Kaladin, leads to a stalemate. This fulfills / breaks the pact and frees Odium from Roshar

Edit: Ultimately, What I'm saying is all of these complaints either become irrelevant once you get to the end of RoW, or I am confident will be by the end of SA5. I say just finish reading the books so you can see how things balance out and make sense in the end. Clearly with all of the detailed analysis that goes on in these forums, we would have a whole lot more complaints out there if things didn't add up / balance out or make sense in-world.

Edited December 22, 2022 by CognitiveShadow
final thought

[KaladinWorldsinger]

To add my 2 cents, i think lezian can kill almost any radiant except for Kaladin. Kaladin is too stupidly talented. I am pretty sure even Jasnah will die against lezian. She has shown that she is not the unstoppable war machine that she thought she was. If she does live, it will be purely based on the strength of her plate( assuming that lezian has no solution against living plate). 

The two big problems i think are:

1) Stormlight healing is too powerful

2)The main characters are untouchable in their talent. Dalinar is not only a great fighter, he is also a pretty amazing war general strategist. Kaladin has prolly made all of Roshar lose hope that hard work will ever beat raw talent.

@Frustration A radiant is not equal to 100 fused. Kal is equal to 100 fused. The rest are prolly like 2 or 3

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Dalinar is not only a great fighter, he is also a pretty amazing war general strategist. Kaladin has prolly made all of Roshar lose hope that hard work will ever beat raw talent.

Dalinar has decades of practice, training and experience in both fighting and leading armies

Kaladin isn't just raw talent, it's thousands of hours of fighting and spear practice** and dozens of "battles" practicing reading combat situations.

The main characters are talented. But it is a talent sharpened by practice and honed by experience.

• Spoiler

  Note: based on the Roshar Year is 500 days and we know that after Tien's death Kaladin was practicing 3-5 hours per day for over three years. So a conservative calculation may be 3*(1750-days lost to actual fighting or nonstop march) would still put him at 3000+ hours of spear training and practice where, as the saying goes, it takes 1000 hrs of practice to master a skill.

   

Edited December 30, 2022 by Treamayne
Note

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I am pretty sure even Jasnah will die against lezian.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure we have words of Brandon mentioning that Jasnah will be even more of a main character in the back half of SA. So she’s probably even more invincible than Kaladin haha but in all seriousness yeah I’m very interested to see what Lezian can do and how powerful he is. Though I doubt he will be Odium’s champion since he is just showing up now. 
 

Agreed with @Treamayne, the strongest radiants also have some serious and legitimate training / experience in battle that is enhanced by their nahel bond and use of investiture. Their performance correlates pretty well to their experiences I think.

[Frustration he/him]

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

To add my 2 cents, i think lezian can kill almost any radiant except for Kaladin. Kaladin is too stupidly talented. I am pretty sure even Jasnah will die against lezian. She has shown that she is not the unstoppable war machine that she thought she was. If she does live, it will be purely based on the strength of her plate( assuming that lezian has no solution against living plate). 

That is just strictly speaking not true. The fused have shown no ability to harm plate other than just battering it down with repeated hits. And we know given by the fact that only a handful of times in the history of Roshar has that ever worked, most of those being stories involving poison or other tricks rather than actually beating plate, that that is not an effective strategy.

Jasnah in plate is basically immune to Lezian, while she is free to soulcast the air around his head or body into stone at a moments notice.

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

@Frustration A radiant is not equal to 100 fused. Kal is equal to 100 fused. The rest are prolly like 2 or 3

The only Radiants to ever die to our knowledge, have either been killed by Nale, by Moash, when unconscious, or by Skybreakers. There has only been 1 in all that time who may have fallen to the fused.

If that doesn't show you how utterly incompetent the fused are I don't know what will.

Every order has surges that make fighting a piece of cake, If any order with gravitation loses in a fight it's because they have no idea what they are doing. Division is even more busted, Abrasion users can't be touched, Progression enhances your already unbeatable healing, with Illumination you opponents should never see you coming, a single competent Lightweaver could take out the entire fused High Command. Transformation is just about the most busted ability ever, either turn your opponents to smoke, or the air around them to dust. Cohesion means you own the terrain, you can force you opponents to fight on your terms, box them in, sink them into the ground etc.

Compared to that the best thing the Fused have is teleportation, and that is comprised of the least populated brands. Sure they can move through stone, but they can't shape it, command an entire field to become liquid sinking all your enemies in a single blow. They can fly forever, but so slowly that even squires can keep up with them.

Add in shardblades, and plate and there is literally nothing the Fused can do.

[offer]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The only Radiants to ever die to our knowledge, have either been killed by Nale, by Moash, when unconscious, or by Skybreakers. There has only been 1 in all that time who may have fallen to the fused.

 

In RoW chapter 10 we learn that some radiant have died in the battles (presumably against heavenly ones):

Quote

"At first, when they`d began losing Radiants in battle, Kaladin had worried it would cause him to lose the spren as well."

One of the dead radiants was named Vratim. I think this is all the information we get about them.

So radiants have died in battles but none of those we know.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, offer said:

In RoW chapter 10 we learn that some radiant have died in the battles (presumably against heavenly ones):

One of the dead radiants was named Vratim. I think this is all the information we get about them.

So radiants have died in battles but none of those we know.

One known death, of an unknown cause and ideal.

And that would make them a single notable casualty in the entire conflict.

[offer]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

One known death, of an unknown cause and ideal.

And that would make them a single notable casualty in the entire conflict.

Kaladin refers to it as multiple deaths, WE only have one of their names.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Jasnah in plate is basically immune to Lezian, while she is free to soulcast the air around his head or body into stone at a moments notice.

This is pretty much why I say they deserve to lose.  For being one of the best soulcasters out there and filled with raw talent you would think she would be wrecking armies while perfectly immune in the cognitive realm but she doesn't.  

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The only Radiants to ever die to our knowledge, have either been killed by Nale, by Moash, when unconscious, or by Skybreakers. There has only been 1 in all that time who may have fallen to the fused.

If that doesn't show you how utterly incompetent the fused are I don't know what will.

Again my point as well the only reason there is a story with the power creep in Stormlight is because both sides are written as total knobs.  

People talk about Koloss being slow monkeys and there isn't really a show of skill by the seers fighting and only dying when their atium ran out... but here we have radiants who only die when they are totally unconscious but they can't be knocked unconscious unless they are so far away from stormlight and bondsmith to be a normal human with no powers at all.  

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Every order has surges that make fighting a piece of cake, If any order with gravitation loses in a fight it's because they have no idea what they are doing. Division is even more busted, Abrasion users can't be touched, Progression enhances your already unbeatable healing, with Illumination you opponents should never see you coming, a single competent Lightweaver could take out the entire fused High Command. Transformation is just about the most busted ability ever, either turn your opponents to smoke, or the air around them to dust. Cohesion means you own the terrain, you can force you opponents to fight on your terms, box them in, sink them into the ground etc.

Compared to that the best thing the Fused have is teleportation, and that is comprised of the least populated brands. Sure they can move through stone, but they can't shape it, command an entire field to become liquid sinking all your enemies in a single blow. They can fly forever, but so slowly that even squires can keep up with them.

Add in shardblades, and plate and there is literally nothing the Fused can do.

This is my whole frustration with the stormlight.  I would rather read about competent weaker characters than incompetent demigods.  

Brandon built this system with unparalleled access to massive ranged AoE damage and control as well as making the most mobile set of characters possible with a fully slotted single target dps weapons and a full tank armor build all in one....

But because they are moron demigods who won't use their powers and they are fighting morons who can't do anything against the demigod morons because they are demigods. 

I will finish for completions sake and I really think the cosmere wide story is going to hinge on Odium and Roshar but if this were a stand alone book series I probably would have regifted it long long ago.  

There is something awesome about using hooks like flying and soulcasting and unbreakable armor and swords that slice through everything like butter... and I love how Brandon ties magic into the economies of his worlds... but these are things cool on their own.  Once you mash them all together and then destroy the cost by implementing your bondsmiths ability to provide infinite healing and power it just falls flat.  

All of the anti magic stuff being implemented to help the story telling actually makes it worse.  Now you dumb down your system and write the same fights as you had before the magic started to unfold.  

You can't make a lasting story when all of your protagonists and antagonists are too stupid to use their powers or you threaten them by making it so they can't use their powers.  Why be scared of a soulcaster who could encase your head in aluminum when she won't do it because the story would be anticlimactic? 

Stormlight suffers from having a cast of characters who are so strong they don't have to be good while simultaneously being so good that they ignore how strong they are.  

I don't know if I am reading about a monkey who has a nuke and decides its only good for climbing on as decoration, or if I am reading about Bruce Lee making a demonstration with all of his limbs tied together so he is just a stump hobbling around.  

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is pretty much why I say they deserve to lose.  For being one of the best soulcasters out there and filled with raw talent you would think she would be wrecking armies while perfectly immune in the cognitive realm but she doesn't.  

To be fair, she can't use Plate or Blade in the Cognitive so she's far more vulnerable to enemy Fused there than she is in the Physical Realm.

I agree that much of the tension in the story was lost in Rythm of War. As I've said before,  Fused became a joke in my opinion, they aren't even masters of their Surges, they are masters of a single application of their Surges. Brandon should not have given Dalinar the ability to open Perpendicularities whenever he wanted as that makes any battle he's at one that the Radiants have no right to lose. Heralds being absolute combat masters would make sense IF the Fused which have lived as long were also shown to be nightmares to fight but they aren't. The simple matter of the situation is he has made Radiants so strong in comparison to their enemies that the things he had in the story to limit them (spren not trusting humans, no training, etc) make the backstory make no sense when previous generations of Radiants has ample spren to form Bonds with, good training, and a Shard to talk with. The Radiants of previous Desolations should have steamrolled Odium's forces

[Frustration he/him]

21 hours ago, StanLemon said:

To be fair, she can't use Plate or Blade in the Cognitive so she's far more vulnerable to enemy Fused there than she is in the Physical Realm.

I agree that much of the tension in the story was lost in Rythm of War. As I've said before,  Fused became a joke in my opinion, they aren't even masters of their Surges, they are masters of a single application of their Surges. Brandon should not have given Dalinar the ability to open Perpendicularities whenever he wanted as that makes any battle he's at one that the Radiants have no right to lose. Heralds being absolute combat masters would make sense IF the Fused which have lived as long were also shown to be nightmares to fight but they aren't. The simple matter of the situation is he has made Radiants so strong in comparison to their enemies that the things he had in the story to limit them (spren not trusting humans, no training, etc) make the backstory make no sense when previous generations of Radiants has ample spren to form Bonds with, good training, and a Shard to talk with. The Radiants of previous Desolations should have steamrolled Odium's forces

Not to mention that in the past they had Dawnshards, which when combined with surgebinding have already destroyed one planet.

[nyxvoid]

guys . i know healing power of this lvl is overkill . i also know that indestructible swords that can cut through every thing without much effort is an over power. also surges  appear to be much more ... idk , unique ? useful ? flexible ? ah useable if user has mind to use them . and it does sometime appears that in SA , very few surgebinders use their surges to full extent ( i might counter this argument with training requirement). yes . i think that whole sytem is so overwhelmed with magic and abilities that it should have exploded .but it has not ,or brandon has not let the system to explode . he is still juggling things ?

i did think ,previously , that good guys are weaker than bad guys . now i think that they are  nearly equal . you see that both sides had same information about technology , specifically fabrials and anti lights at the end of ROW.

the argument that , with enough training , radiants will come out superior than fused ; is  pretty solid one. and i would agree with this argument .... for next half of SA. in fifth book , i dont think that many radiants are going to be able to master their surges to max lvl.

and then ... but if enemy put their mind to annihilate humans , they could simply go and kill common humans and eventually , spren will have no one to bond . this is one scenario . fused could do a lot if they have a mind to.  

fused could ... but they dont want to kill humans by their own hands , they want subjugate them , use them as shock troops or army to invade cosmere. then after completing conquest to cosmere , killing what remains of humans.

still their are many possibilities , if powers are used in right way ....

but ...

 

my point  is , SA is balanced as of first five books. both sides have some abilities ( overpowering ones yes ) but there are some hurdles aren't there? some limitations ?

there is agenda with in agenda of enemy and to some extent of good guys. and then there is problem with fuel . fused can request voidlight at any time, they dont leak it very much.  radiants have to use spheres . they can run out of stormlight .  they cant have delinar at every battlefront . 

yes yes  . this does not make fused any stonger.  radiants of 4th or 5th ideal would use stormlight as slowly as fused.

also , healing consumes a lot of investiture . i think that in most of 1v1 fights, they aim to injure opponent to so that  he would have to heal himself and run out of light.... i think this happens most of the times  when there is fight between surgebinders.

 

 

again there are good arguments highlighting +points of each side. i would still say that story is balanced . there aren't any flaws that say that story is ruined . and there is not much of power / ability gap  between both sides ( at least in first half of SA). and it is one of best epic fantasy series .

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

23 minutes ago, nyxvoid said:

it is one of best epic fantasy series .

I think this is what it all boils down to.  It is written in a way that people can enjoy it who don't enjoy all the filth that a lot of other authors litter their books with.  For that I am really glad. That's actually my favorite thing about reading Brandon's works is how clean they are relative to the other big series I enjoy.   My kid will be able to enjoy stormlight far before he will enjoy some of the other epics out there for that reason and I just choose not to read certain things anyways.  

I have a hard time calling SA an epic fantasy though for myself.  Its closer to the MCU than Lord of the Rings and I would put the main characters far beneath those in middle earth.  

What makes a great fantasy is the tension imo.  Hobbits going out and traveling the world was always going to work.  The little guy tackling an impossible task.  

What is so frustrating about SA is that I had that feeling the first book and I had epic feelings as kaladin grew in the second book.  But now it feels the characters have outgrown their world.  When Dalinar lost most of his force after being abandoned by his friend it was a blow.  A hard blow at a critical time.  Kaladin running back with the bridge 4 crew to save them was so fun to listen to because it was an EPIC feat to go back and risk literally everything for them. 

Now it is not a risk.  Half an army dying in book 1 was devastating.  Now entire armies die while you read about a few superheroes and villians fighting above the mass destruction below them. 

Vin vs Ruin was so epic because the stakes were all or nothing.  You laid it all out on the table or the whole world was going to be destroyed.  The desperation was so thick.  All that antagonist wanted was for everyone to be dead.  We got to see allomancy stretched to its limits.   The BoM gave us a look at the world through the eyes of the most powerful being they knew to live.  So epic in that moment of desperation unleashing that power.  

Odium wants a planet he can control and keep in bondage thus we have all of these characters who by necessity can't use their entire tool kits.  We see through the eyes of these all powerful radiants and none of them use it.  They don't have too either.  They aren't so desperate as to need to soulcast the air around their enemies.  They aren't so desperate to need to use lasers or turn their opponents into dust or root down the entire army to negate losses on their side.   

The complete disregard of the little guy in SA is kind of what kills it on the epic fantasy level and moves it to more of a fun, long superheroe comic book level.  

This is why I actually really like reading Adolins story.  He went from being in the 99% to being in the 98% and still having so much a gap between himself and the top % that the story isn't nearly as fun anymore.

When Kaladin was fighting a shardbearer and his men were being cut down as he danced around the blade it was an epic scene.  When he hopped into the ring to save Adolin it was epic.  But fast forward a couple books and we went from them being a close match to this point where Adolin vs Kaladin isn't even a match up.  Kaladin at 4th ideal could destroy Adolin in his shards about as fast as Adolin could destroy an old granny crossing the street. 

You can't write a magic system that stacks power that fast and not have it damage the story.   You can't have the best duelist in the world suddenly be a fly under the feet of your magic system and have there be any meaning to the little guys dying.  

Adolin might be annoying but I actually love his character because when he looks at the world the same way I imagine Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli must have when they approached the black gate.  Powerful in their own rights but utterly outclassed and outmatched in the grand scheme of things.  Biggest difference is that Adolin knows he has radiants in his corner where the fellowship were totally unaware of whether Frodo was even alive anymore.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 21.12.2022 at 10:59 PM, Frustration said:

Fused souls wear out after each rebirth. Spren don't, so killing then is making progress.

Not to mention they have virtually no way to counter a radiant once they reach 4th ideal.

The Knights Radiant wouldn't lose. The Rosharan humans would lose. You would have a small elite and a broken people. And then: Shardbearers cannot hold territory.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Knights Radiant wouldn't lose. The Rosharan humans would lose. You would have a small elite and a broken people. And then: Shardbearers cannot hold territory.

I think this is a great point.  Shardbearers cannot hold ground... radiants can.  Open a perpendicularity and do whatever bonkers shenanigan's you can think of with the surges on an aoe scale and in theory you should be able to swallow up entire armies of enemies without breaking a sweat.  

Thats my whole issue with SA.  

I would much prefer a book full of PoV characters who are in unpowered in the armies fighting battles that they can't win only to have radiants swoop in and do their things.  How epic was that vision Dalinar had when he first saw a windrunner swoop in and the awe it inspired from him and the readers.  Sprinkle in a few PoV characters who have these powers but to try revolving the story around them just takes the wind right out of the sails.  

Again Adolin is such a fun character to read because he is strong.  He was the thing everyone wanted to be.  He studied and knows the limits of what he is.  Reading his PoV in battles great... he plays this hugely important role as a shardbearer knowing he can't hold ground but willing to try to do exactly that when it is needed.  To watch him going from this powerful character to being a play toy for radiants is just sad.   

Perhaps I also draw issue with the fact that the powersets are so broad in stormlight.  Stormlight does soooo much.  If a person were only able to do a single thing in the cosmere I think you would be a fool to not choose breathing stormlight as the option.  No surges no plate or blade.  Just stormlight.  Certainly for me it is between that and A pewter.  (I don't know what a comparable amount of breaths would be but I could be enticed by the 3rd or 4th heightening).  

 

[Tglassy]

If you haven't finished Oathbringer, I suggest doing so.  I've listened to all the Stormlight books over half a dozen times, and before RoW came out, and it was because I wanted to get back to the end of Oathbringer.  It isn't about the magic system.  It isn't about the stakes.  It isn't about who is more powerful than whom.

It's about the people.  It's about Dalinar's struggles with who he was vs who he is.  It's about Kaladin's depression, which I relate to deeply.  It's about people, real people, who yeah have superpowers, but in having superpowers still struggle with the same issues that we struggle with.  It's about understanding ourselves, and learning to rise above our past, or our own natures, and be better people.  Shallan is about being honest with one's self and accepting what has happened to you while not accepting that you deserved it.  Kaladin is about understanding that when it is dark, it is just a season, and that there HAVE been good times, even if you can't remember them, and there will be again.  Dalinar is about accepting who you were, but not accepting that you have to stay that way.  THESE are the reasons I love these books.  The magic is fun.  But it was always secondary.  

The moment when Kaladin realized he and his men could be free...but they just had to sacrifice an entire army to do it.  The moment when Kaladin realized that the King was Dalinar's TIen, and just because someone is invonvenient doesn't mean they are worthless. The moments when Shallan admits what she's done.  The moment when Teft, in tears, finally makes his Oath.  The moment when Dalinar accepts responsibility for his actions.  The moment Maya speaks.  The moment when Kaladin accepts that he cannot protect everyone.  These moments are the climaxes.  Not the fight against the Parshendi, or against Moash, or against the Fused.  Those are backdrops.  Fun backdrops, but backdrops.  The climaxes is the personal revelations.  The acknoledgements of how things really are, and the promises to become better.  I see myself in many of these characters, or aspects, at least, and going through their stories helps me go through mine.  

One thing that does frustrate me is that there are a lot of people here that seem to ascribe more power to them than there is.  Things like soulcasting a brick around someone's head, or jumping to the CR to soulcast an entire army.  These things are just not feasible for one reason or another, because if they were, Jasnah would have done it.  Powers are ascribed to the Radiants that just aren't in the books.  Division is bonkers?  When?  We've only seen it once!  Sort of!  Nale doesn't even use it!  If it was so powerful, why doesn't he just use it to wipe out all of Dalinar's armies?  If you read the various threads here, it makes it seem that if certain members of our community were to be in charge of the Radiants at Urutheru, the entire war would have been over by now, becasue who could ever imagine they couldn't win?  

Or you can trust that it just doesn't work that way.  Soulcasters can't just soulcast a block around someone's head, and jumping to the CR wouldn't help them soulcast an entire army.  Maybe at one time they could, but these Radiants don't have the training.  Dalinar is an Unchaned Bondsmith who knows nothing of his powers.  He's just flipping switches and learning as he goes, and that's all of them.   

As for Fused being a threat, it really depends, I guess.  It depends on how many Radiants ever really got Plate.  Currently, there's only 2.  It seems like they are these bastions of power and authority...and maybe they are.  Maybe that's why the humans literally never lost a desolation in thousands of years.  But there are still only two at the moment.  

But again, that's not what these stories are about.  Not really.

On 12/22/2022 at 11:50 AM, Frustration said:

They don't need the other kingdoms other than for Oathgates. 1 Radiant is worth hundreds of Fused, and thousands of regular soldiers.

And...many of those Radiants belong to those other Kingdoms...And would be loyal to the Kingdom rather than Urutheru if they did not have a union of some kind.  Sure, 1 Radiant is worth a thousand Fused, but if every Kingdom decides to take their Radiants and do things their own way, then you don't have one unified Radiant army, you have a whole bunch of seperate armies, all of which only have a few Radiants.  Divide and Conquer.  

 

On 12/22/2022 at 11:50 AM, Frustration said:

And even if he did The Stormfather can make new honorspren the same way.

But he won't.  I'll never understand the use of irellivant arguments.  "Just ask the Nightwatcher to give it to you."  The Nightwatcher is an insane Spren who does NOT give you what you asked for, but what SHE thinks you should have, and a curse to go along with it, which in every case but one made the individual regret going to the Nightwatcher.  "Ask the Nightwacher for it" is never a valid argument for anything.   "The Stormfather can just make new honorspren" is not a valid argument, because he won't do it.  Period.  Ever.  Regardless of whether or not he's going to die.  He's too proud, too stuborn, and too scared.  Now, other Honorspren could, and have, done it, but the Stormfather never will.   

 

On 12/21/2022 at 8:05 PM, Frustration said:

Spren aren't hurt by their knight dying, and find bonding again therapeutic, so that's not an issue at all.

Yeah.  Ok.  Tell that to Syl.  Who literally went to sleep for a thousand years to hide from the fact that her Knight had died.  They are most certainly hurt.  It isn't deadly, but it still hurts.  It causes them pain.  You can't bond your soul, your very essence, to someone, feel them die, and just go on like "Oh well.  I guess I gotta pick the next schmuk in line." 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think this is a great point.  Shardbearers cannot hold ground... radiants can.  Open a perpendicularity and do whatever bonkers shenanigan's you can think of with the surges on an aoe scale and in theory you should be able to swallow up entire armies of enemies without breaking a sweat.  

Then can in accordance with their numbers. Which will dwindle with the general population. Radiants can't lower their recruiting standards by much. They cannot draft people like conventional armies can.

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thats my whole issue with SA.

They can be at a few places. And at that places they can slaughter armies. But there won't be armies to slaughter. The Singers don't need large armies at that stage. It will be one burned village after another. And then the Radiants will be forced to make peace.