Roshar deserves to lose

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You don't. Radiants are limited to the numbers of available sprens. And sprens don't reproduce like humans. So their numbers are not changing - within a certain timeframe.

They are also limited by the number of people able to live up to the oaths.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do we know that humanity USE Downshards during Desolation or it was just Honor that mention them in the visions, and one poem also?

Dawnshards were used during the Cataclysm of Ashyn, Honor mentions that fighting Odium will be harder without them, the poem of Ista etc.

So Roshar at least had one during that time probably multiple. 

[nyxvoid]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

. Imagine what combined arms teams of Reals and Fused who have Futuresight can do.

 

Ah .there is nightform for singers it would indeed provide significant edge in battle strategies . even if future couldn't be determined clearly enough , it still is priceless edge. and i dont think that Honor helped his human troops with future insights , considering how vorinism ,Honor's own religion  disapproved of predicting future , calling that it is of voidbrigers . 

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Or maybe 4th Ideal and more Radiants are just extremely rare. 

So the number of 4th Ideal Radiants would be even lower than what we saw during Dalinar's vision. I hope that's the case at least.

yes , in OB one of Skybreaker training instructors tell szeth and others that -

most radiants would go as high as 3rd ideal . few would achive 4th ideal and 'i think' there hasn't been any 5th ideal Skybreaker around in recent years. -

also in ROW one of honor spren tells same thing that few readiants achive 4th ideal before proceeding to tell Kaladin that he has also reached his potential in radiant path and most likely will remain 3rd ideal radiant for his life.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

 

Quote

Kaladin is exceptionally super awesome, sure, but I do think Moash killing Leshwi without powers is very significant.

we see Kaladin take down Lezian, the Pursuer even when his powers are suppressed . we see Moash kill lady Leshwi while she has superior powers. In both cases weaker one exploited ignorance of superior one. they used their enemies' arrogance against them . they had surprise on their sides , for Kaladin and Moash predicted where  enemy will be and how eny will attack . If enemy was humble and careful , they both have died . to say that normal soldiers could kill heavenly ones similarly, is not likely  . normal soldiers wont have surprise or training on their sides . and in battles every one is focused enough that arrogance of fused cannot be exploited in same way as Kaladin and Moash did. 

 

Quote

. The Feverstone Keep vision arguably implies that fully functional Radiant orders had most people in Plate,

yes , in books it is mentioned that there are fewer 4th ideal radiants compared to 3rd ideal radiants. but we also see alot of 4th ideal ones in that vision. may be it is just a vision and  so not entirely accurate . or may be there were even more radiants than we previously thought . later seems more likely .  it would indicate that overall number of radiants was more than thousand. 

 

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not to mention the fact that you should never actually lose anyone as with a Dawnshard you could easily wipe out the entirety of the singers forces.

i dont think humans used dawnshards in past desolations. i don't think that humans had any access to dawnshards. Stormfather tells Delinar that Honor began raving about dawnshard toward his end and kind of lost his mind. also we have only seen one dawnshard on roshar . 

There is something peculiar going on with order of truth watchers , enlightened mist spren bonded radiants can see into future . IDK if normal truthwatchers can do such things as well when they are progressed enough in ideals . may be we see only renarian do that because he is advanced enough . but I think Relain did same think on end of Rythem of War. still there does seem to be something fishy with their order. information provided by gems left by ancient radiants do say that truthwatchers were secrative bunch. It is mentioned in one of epigraphs.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by nyxvoid

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, nyxvoid said:

i dont think humans used dawnshards in past desolations. i don't think that humans had any access to dawnshards. Stormfather tells Delinar that Honor began raving about dawnshard toward his end and kind of lost his mind. also we have only seen one dawnshard on roshar .

See my last post.

1 minute ago, nyxvoid said:

yes , in books it is mentioned that there are fewer 4th ideal radiants compared to 3rd ideal radiants. but we also see alot of 4th ideal ones in that vision. may be it is just a vision and  so not entirely accurate . or may be there were even more radiants than we previously thought . later seems more likely .  it would indicate that overall number of radiants was more than thousand. 

Brandon has said some orders had thousands of members on their own.

2 minutes ago, nyxvoid said:

There is something peculiar going on with order of truth watchers , enlightened mist spren bonded radiants can see into future . IDK if normal truthwatchers can do such things as well when they are progressed enough in ideals . may be we see only renarian do that because he is advanced enough . but I think Relain did same think on end of Rythem of War. still there does seem to be something fishy with their order. information provided by gems left by ancient radiants do say that truthwatchers were secrative bunch. It is mentioned in one of epigraphs.

I don't think they could until Honor's restrictions began to fall away.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Dawnshards were used during the Cataclysm of Ashyn, Honor mentions that fighting Odium will be harder without them, the poem of Ista etc.

So Roshar at least had one during that time probably multiple. 

So the only known use of Downshard was on Ashyn, on Roshar we only know humans had them, but no information about USING them during Desolation.

3 minutes ago, nyxvoid said:

to say that normal soldiers could kill heavenly ones similarly, is not likely

It's not possible - siege of Kholinar proves it.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

The back and forth on this thread is as eternal and evenly matched as the opposing sides in SA. A battle destined to go on forever until someone finds the anti-light equivalent of a forum argument

[nyxvoid]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

See my last post.

 

i agree with you .Honor might have ,on some point , used a dawnshard against Odium but it is unlikely that  dawnshards were used in battles.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's not possible - siege of Kholinar proves it.

Some soldiers -that is to say very few- could have managed to kill fused in battles but it is not likely , as if normal soldier is never expected to slay a fused. if someone did managed to kill one, he would have done  that because of luck more than because of skill. if you shoot enough arrows at someone clad in plate, there is a chance(small one) that one arrow will find eye slit and kill that person .

I thhought only Kaladin and marshal Azure managed to kill fused? did others kill fused in siege?

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, nyxvoid said:

I thhought only Kaladin and marshal Azure managed to kill fused? did others kill fused in siege?

Only Kaladin killed one. And that was the only one Fused that died during siege. Azure managed to "scare" them away, but never kill.

Non Radiant soldier most likely killed a Fused, but it was extremely rare to happen. Not impossible, I should write improbable.

 

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

So the only known use of Downshard was on Ashyn, on Roshar we only know humans had them, but no information about USING them during Desolation.

Why would you not use them?

And Honor said that he didn't see how Humans could beat Odium now that they didn't have them, implying that they were used during the desolations.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's not possible - siege of Kholinar proves it.

And Raboniel saying that humans killed fused with sticks.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Why would you not use them?

And Honor said that he didn't see how Humans could beat Odium now that they didn't have them, implying that they were used during the desolations.

Because Honor during Recreance was ranting about people destroying Roshar with Surges and Dawnshards just like Ashyn? He most likely forbade the use of Dawnshards by humans, just like he chained the Surges (most notably Bondsmiths). He told only in the visions, that now when he's gone, humans stand no chance against Odium without Downshards. 

There is no proof suggesting that humans ever used Dawnshards during Desolation. Even The Poem of Ista doesn't prove it, as it mention only climbing up the stairs to a temple with a Dawnshard - not fighting in Desolation.

Quote

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

You need in book proof, or WoB, to claim that Dawnshards were used in battle during Desolations. There is none. Just accept it.

 

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And Raboniel saying that humans killed fused with sticks.

I've already corrected myself on the use of word "not possible", see post above.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because Honor during Recreance was ranting about people destroying Roshar with Surges and Dawnshards just like Ashyn?

A full two thousand years after the Desolations ended.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He most likely forbade the use of Dawnshards by humans,

How would he do that? Dawnshards are independent of his power.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is no proof suggesting that humans ever used Dawnshards during Desolation.

There are a lot of things implying it, the Dawncities first and foremost, which are noted as being beyond Radiants ability to soulcast

Spoiler

jurble

So, Rysn's Dawnshard was totally used with Surgebinding to make the Dawncities right? E.g. the giant windbreaks in Kholinar that everyone wonders "How did they make those?" that would seem outside the power-level of Radiant soulcasting.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say this is a linguistic connection I expected people to make.

Also, creation of the Dawncities (and Urithiru) is beyond the scope of what a Radiant, or even a group of them working together, could create via Soulcasting. (Though note, it's not beyond the scope of what Surgebinding itself could do.)

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 13, 2020)

But also the shattering of the plains, depending on what caused that and so forth.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You need in book proof, or WoB, to claim that Dawnshards were used in battle during Desolations. There is none. Just accept it.

Why would they not have been?

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

A full two thousand years after the Desolations ended.

And you have proof that he didn't think the same way during Desolation about dangers of using Dawnshards? There was a particular planet nearby that was a blunt example of the Dawnshard's danger.

Just now, Frustration said:

How would he do that? Dawnshards are independent of his power.

Just say, that everyone that will try to become a Dawnshard would be public enemy nr 1, and killed immediately. Sprens could just break the bond if someone were to disobey. But this is pointless speculation.

Just now, Frustration said:

There are a lot of things implying it, the Dawncities first and foremost, which are noted as being beyond Radiants ability to soulcast

Forming Dawncities is not an example of fighting with the Dawnshards during Desolations.  And you have also Dawnsingers, that were Parshendi, not Humans, so that would suggest that it was them who made Dawncities and even could used Dawnshards to do it, as Brandon pointed out the "linguistic connection".

Just now, Frustration said:

But also the shattering of the plains, depending on what caused that and so forth.

This is the only instant that I can agree, that Dawnshard were used, but we don't have any confirmation about it, and no proof. I'm of the opinion that it was amplified anti-frequency of Stormseat that shattered it - Dawnshard might be involved.

Just now, Frustration said:

Why would they not have been?

Because when the Dawnshard was used previously, it cause almost total destruction of the whole planet with lot's of casualties and injuries. Why would you ever try to use it again when last time was so disastrous? Honor binded Bondsmith power to prevent it from happening ever again, allowing Dawnshard to be in hands of the men would make this binding pointless. 

You need to prove its usage during fights of Desolations, not claim they were "because why not". I'm telling you why not - Ashyn is your why.

 

Moreover, Dawnshard was given to Akinah to be hold safely and protected by lanceryn , so nobody would claim it and use it. Sleepless were very precise about it.

 

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

The back and forth on this thread is as eternal and evenly matched as the opposing sides in SA. A battle destined to go on forever until someone finds the anti-light equivalent of a forum argument

Spoiler

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Reveal hidden contents

Lol that’s perfect  if there’s one thing we can all agree on completely, it’s that there is nothing we can all agree on completely haha

[Frustration he/him]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And you have proof that he didn't think the same way during Desolation about dangers of using Dawnshards? There was a particular planet nearby that was a blunt example of the Dawnshard's danger.

In the visions he seems to have considered them worth using, and given that everyone says he changed towards his death, yes I do say that his opinions were different.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Just say, that everyone that will try to become a Dawnshard would be public enemy nr 1, and killed immediately. Sprens could just break the bond if someone were to disobey. But this is pointless speculation.

How would you kill a Dawnshard? Hoid doesn't even consider shardblades a threat to him.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

.Because when the Dawnshard was used previously, it cause almost total destruction of the whole planet with lot's of casualties and injuries. Why would you ever try to use it again when last time was so disastrous? Honor binded Bondsmith power to prevent it from happening ever again, allowing Dawnshard to be in hands of the men would make this binding pointless.

And Desolations often resulted in 90% of kingdoms dying, Dawnshards suddenly look like a pretty good option.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You need to prove its usage during fights of Desolations, not claim they were "because why not". I'm telling you why not - Ashyn is your why

We haven't seen a single PoV from a fight, and probably won't for several years. Even if it did happen we wouldn't have the proof.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Moreover, Dawnshard was given to Akinah to be hold safely and protected by lanceryn , so nobody would claim it and use it. Sleepless were very precise about it.

learhpa

If someone (with the appropriate knowledge of where to place the spikes to be successful) were to spike Rysn and try to steal the power of the Dawnshard, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

A very bad time, for the person attempting it. Dawnshards self-protect.

Bennet Alterman

If Dawnshards self-protect, what's the need for larkins and Sleepless?

Brandon Sanderson

They do self-protect. The larkins and Sleepless are there! You're assuming the larkins and Sleepless aren't there because of Dawnshard influence. Which is a false assumption.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15937

 

 

 

 

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

In the visions he seems to have considered them worth using, and given that everyone says he changed towards his death, yes I do say that his opinions were different.

Yes, because he is dead and can't help them anymore. That's why he mention them. Binding surges suggest he did not change his mind about Dawnshards.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would you kill a Dawnshard? Hoid doesn't even consider shardblades a threat to him.

Kill him before he becomes Dawnshard. But Hoid effects are because he once held a Dawnshard. Does the same effects apply to someone that is currently holding a Dawnshard?

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And Desolations often resulted in 90% of kingdoms dying, Dawnshards suddenly look like a pretty good option.

Total planet destruction seams a lot worse than mere 90% of population. 

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

learhpa

If someone (with the appropriate knowledge of where to place the spikes to be successful) were to spike Rysn and try to steal the power of the Dawnshard, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

A very bad time, for the person attempting it. Dawnshards self-protect.

Bennet Alterman

If Dawnshards self-protect, what's the need for larkins and Sleepless?

Brandon Sanderson

They do self-protect. The larkins and Sleepless are there! You're assuming the larkins and Sleepless aren't there because of Dawnshard influence. Which is a false assumption.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15937

Don't you remember that Sleepless were to kill Rysn after they realised she took Dawnshard? Apparently there is a way to kill a person holding a Dawnshard.

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We haven't seen a single PoV from a fight, and probably won't for several years. Even if it did happen we wouldn't have the proof.

Thank you. You finally admitted that there is no proof of Dawnshards being use for fight during Desolation. I rest my case, your Honor.

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Thank you. You finally admitted that there is no proof of Dawnshards being use for fight during Desolation. I rest my case, your Honor.

There is also isn't any proof Truthwatchers fought during desolations, which would be silly to assume.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, because he is dead and can't help them anymore. That's why he mention them. Binding surges suggest he did not change his mind about Dawnshards.

He says it would be harder now, without the Dawnshards, meaning they used them in the past, and he seems to approve.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Does the same effects apply to someone that is currently holding a Dawnshard?

Why would it not?

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Total planet destruction seams a lot worse than mere 90% of population. 

When everyone you know just died it becomes a lot harder to justify not using the super powerful mega weapon that can instantly end the war forever.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Don't you remember that Sleepless were to kill Rysn after they realised she took Dawnshard? Apparently there is a way to kill a person holding a Dawnshard.

They tried, but I doubt they could have succeeded.

And even Nightblood isn't confirmed to be able to kill a Dawnshard vessel.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There is also isn't any proof Truthwatchers fought during desolations, which would be silly to assume.

You can't be serious? How is this an argument? It was said, that Radiants fought in Desolation, Truthwatchers are Radiants, therefore they fought aswell. Nowhere was it said that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolation.

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He says it would be harder now, without the Dawnshards, meaning they used them in the past, and he seems to approve.

This quote only suggest that Dawnshards are now inaccessible for humanity, NOT that they were using them in the past. He is worried that humanity won't make it without him ("I wish I could do more"), and lists out possible ways to fight Odium - only excluding Dawnshards. Please, point out where it says in this quote, that humanity was using the Dawnshards to fight? 

Quote

 

I wish I could do more. You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone. 

It doesn't have the meaning you claim it to have.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would it not?

As the person is still holding the Dawnshard and is actively changing its holder and his soul? Those are wildly different circumstances. And Rysn behavior doesn't indicate that she currently has this effects, however barely anything was specify in her interludes. We don't know yet, as Brandon doesn't tell us this.

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When everyone you know just died it becomes a lot harder to justify not using the super powerful mega weapon that can instantly end the war forever.

Or instantly destroy your world and everyone that is still alive, as it done it on Ashyn. This is too risky to justify using it.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They tried, but I doubt they could have succeeded.

You doubt, they didn't. They were very aggressive about it.

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And even Nightblood isn't confirmed to be able to kill a Dawnshard vessel.

Again, what is this argument? It's Rafo for now. You can't use it as a proof, as this is not a proof. 

Spoiler

Zachrandir

Does this mean that Rysn is immortal now? If so that's going to start causing some questions if she stops aging.

Also, would Hoid be able to tell that Rysn bears a Dawnshard? Solely from having born one before? (Maybe he'd be able to sense it with Breaths or some other mystery Investiture.)

I also want to see what would happen if you stabbed a Dawnshard (/Dawnshard bearing person) with Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson

These kinds of questions are why I gave a preemptive RAFO.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

 

Why do you even keep insisting on this? You don't provide any arguments, you don't have any proof. This is not argumentative discussion, this is finding any "arguments" just to support your opinion. Again. give me definite proof, that Dawnshards were used in combat during Desolation. Evidence from books, or WoBs. Just one. If you can't find any confirmation. don't claim it to be truth.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Why do you even keep insisting on this? You don't provide any arguments, you don't have any proof. This is not argumentative discussion, this is finding any "arguments" just to support your opinion. Again. give me definite proof, that Dawnshards were used in combat during Desolation. Evidence from books, or WoBs. Just one. If you can't find any confirmation. don't claim it to be truth.

I have given several arguments, and several hints, and clues, but let's look at this again.

1. The Rosharans had Dawnshards. This is a fact
2. The Rosharans were in multiple wars of extermination. This is a fact.
3. It got so bad at one point that Radiants lobotomized an entire species. This is a fact.
4. Both humans and the Stormfather considered the Dawnshards weapons. This is a fact.

Given these situations humans are left with a choice:

Use the Dawnshards and you have a chance of dying, or don't use the Dawnshards and have a higher chance of dying.

Given that, why would thousands of individuals across nearly three thousand years all have come to the conclusion that using Dawnshards was too risky?

Additionally we have evidence of potential Dawnshard use: The Dawncities, Urithiru, The Shattered plains, Nohadon being more than just a surgebinder and king, etc.

Given that it is not only logical that Dawnshards were used during the desolation, but it becomes almost a certainty.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

• It got so bad at one point that Radiants lobotomized an entire species. This is a fact.

By accident... Not purposefully.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Use the Dawnshards and you have a chance of dying, or don't use the Dawnshards and have a higher chance of dying.

You mean use the Dawnshards and have certainty of destruction of Roshar, just like it was done on Ashyn, and just like Honor told them?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Given that, why would thousands of individuals across nearly three thousand years all have come to the conclusion that using Dawnshards was too risky?

Because there was Honor telling them, they would destroy Roshar, like their ancestors before, if they use it. And the last time someone used a Dawnshard it render whole planet uninhabitable.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Additionally we have evidence of potential Dawnshard use: The Dawncities, Urithiru, The Shattered plains, Nohadon being more than just a surgebinder and king, etc.

This is not an evidence, this is only speculations. Speculation is not an evidence. No proof that Nohadon hold a Dawnshard - only Rafoed WoBs, which are not a proof.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Given that it is not only logical that Dawnshards were used during the desolation, but it becomes almost a certainty.

It's not certain, it's just speculative.

So let's look at this again.

1. Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium - the bigest event after creation of Cosmere - this is a fact
2. Dawnshard, with combination of Surges, was used on Ashyn and accidentally destroy whole planet - this is a fact
3. Honor was so worried about it happening on Roshar, that he binded Surges, especially Bondsmithing - this is a fact
4. Dawnshard was hidden in Akinah, under protection of lanceryn, so nobody could ever access it - this is a fact
5. The burden of responsibility for Ashyn destruction was so big, that Honor had to personally reassure Radiants every generation - this is a fact (edit: or I might be wrong in that case)
6. Honor was ranting before Recreance about humanity using Dawnshard with Surges and destroying Roshar, like their ancestors before on Ashyn - this is the fact
7. Recreance was caused by the will to protect Roshar from destruction by the use of Dawnshards and Surges like on Ashyn - this is a fact
8. After Scouring of Aimia, and extinction of lanceryn, the task of protecting the Dawnshard was so important, that Sleepless took it upon themselves, and created elaborated distractions and obstacles just to hide its presence on Akinah - this is a fact
9. When Rysn became Dawnshard, Sleepless were so scared, that they immediately decided to kill her - this is a fact
10. Even Sleepless decided that nobody with access to powers or investiture should hold a Dawnshard, to prevent it from being ever used - this is a fact
11. Dawnshards were never said in books to be used in fighting during Desolations - this is a fact
12. There is no WoB proving/suggesting that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolations  - this is a fact

I'm not seeing tthe certainty that Dawnshards were used during the desolation, what I'm seeing is that it's extremely unlikely to be true. And that you definitely can't claim it as a confirmed truth, as that is simply a lie.

Every Radiant that was worried so much, about possibility of Roshar destruction by usage of Dawnshards, that Honor had to personally reassure them, would never suggest to use Dawnshards as a weapons in the first place. And when this reassurance was absent and reversed, they immediately abandoned their surges, making all the same, spontaneous decision, independent from each other.

Spoiler

Questioner: (paraphrased)

In RoW was see Kaladin telling Syl that he believes that the Recreance took place not as one event such as fever stone keep, but on an individual basis. This has created many discussions in the fandom about how the spren could have been unaware that they would become deadeye's. Is this because it took people years later to discover how to summon and dismiss shards through an ornementation mishap, and deadeye's weren't seen by the other spren in shadesmar until there was no stopping anyone. 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The recreance wasn't something that happened over months, more like days. And the decision was made in the heat of the moment by the spren and their knights.

Footnote: I don't have the exact wording unfortunately, but he did say 'days not months' and explained that this was something that he hoped to be totally cleared up by the end of book 5. 
Miscellaneous 2021 (July 1, 2021)

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by alder24

[nyxvoid]

well this is an intriguing Discussion . i believe dawnshards are not used in past desolation , in order to defeat fused / singers/enemy . it is to say that dawnshards might have been used on roshar for other reasons than war so that use is  not related . 

 

we do not know what  capabilities of dawnshards are and how person holding it can use it.Brandon says that each dawnshard give its bearer different set of capabilities . hightninig awareness of colors and sounds is common ability for all four dawnshards. so it would mean that not all dawnshards can ( possibly ) harm enemy / kill them / destroy their land etc.

we do however know that ashyn was destroyed by reckless use of surges along with use of a dawnshard( it is stated somewhere that one dawnshard was involved in this process).we also know that Odium came to Roshar with human refugees [ possibly ,when Honor and  Cultivation accepted human refugees from ashyn , he became a god of Roshar] . i belive Odium wanted a way in so he would have manipulated humans into destroying their home world and then he would have shown their bondsmith how to use his surge to go to Roshar. 

it is mentioned that dawnshards protect their bearers against use of hemalurgy. that is because hemalurgy would pose threat to dawnshar itself ( not only its bearer ) as investiture is lost during this act. we dont know if dawnshards have some built-in mechanism to ward of threats against the life of their bears ( other then special abilities they give their users). apparently they don't .

we do know that some of dawnshards can manipulate land as dawn cities were created with dawnshards  that event might have happened before Honor and cultivation came to roshar. It certainly happened long befor coming of humans.  we know that Odium wants a way out of braiz and he would not mind doing so with destroying everything . if he can.

 

dawnshard Currently on roshar was protected by sleepless because if Odium managed to get that dawnshard , he would do untold destruction to Roshar( or some thing along those lines). Odium does not even now that dawnshard is there.  if dawnshard is to be used in war againt Odium , he would definitely notice when it is used against him  or his troops . so exposing existence of dawnshard by humans even if they managed to kill every single singer and fused , would certainly lead to Odium hunting down-- specifically-- for dawnshard and him doing untold damage to Roshar when he get it.

It doesn't seem feasible enough for humans to use them against enemy in significant way. If they use dawnshard in an insignificant way against enemy, Odium may not notice its use, but risk of him noticing that it is in his reach is too great to use it for small things . if it is used in more significant way as  defeatin singers , then he would notice it and then only way out for Odium would be to get Dawnshard and then kill cultivation with it or destroy Roshar or something along those lines . eventually , use of dawnshards against Odium would either lead to destruction of Roshar or Odium becoming god of men and then him using humans as his troops in his conquest of Cosmere. 

one can question that how can Odium manage to capture dawnshardbearer. to answer that , i would say that he is a god and have a wast army on his disposal , once he knows his target ,he would use every trick at his disposal to get it , and he has more  aggressive tricks than other gods . and he is more cunning than Honor.

 

In visions of Delinar , Honor seems to suggest that dawnshards maybe useful aginst enemy. he may be suggesting this because humans are truly desperate now with no apparent end of desolation( please dont go on saying that humans are more powerful than enemy. i am mentioning Honor's point of view . it is apparent enough by Visions that he is extremely worried about human defeat so he is providing any help he can after his death).

so i believe that dawnshards were never used against enemy-- in a significant way . if they were , we might have noticed effects

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Dawnshard, with combination of Surges, was used on Ashyn and accidentally destroy whole planet - this is a fact

This is not a fact, Ashyn both still exists and is habitable in certain regions.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

The burden of responsibility for Ashyn destruction was so big, that Honor had to personally reassure Radiants every generation - this is a fact

This is not a fact. The invasion of singer lands was the shame the Radinats needed comfort for.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

After Scouring of Aimia, and extinction of lanceryn, the task of protecting the Dawnshard was so important, that Sleepless took it upon themselves, and created elaborated distractions and obstacles just to hide its presence on Akinah - this is a fact

Due to the Dawnshard protecting itself.

[nyxvoid]

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

  Hide contents

Questioner: (paraphrased)

In RoW was see Kaladin telling Syl that he believes that the Recreance took place not as one event such as fever stone keep, but on an individual basis. This has created many discussions in the fandom about how the spren could have been unaware that they would become deadeye's. Is this because it took people years later to discover how to summon and dismiss shards through an ornementation mishap, and deadeye's weren't seen by the other spren in shadesmar until there was no stopping anyone. 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The recreance wasn't something that happened over months, more like days. And the decision was made in the heat of the moment by the spren and their knights.

Footnote: I don't have the exact wording unfortunately, but he did say 'days not months' and explained that this was something that he hoped to be totally cleared up by the end of book 5. 
Miscellaneous 2021 (July 1, 2021)

 

i think  maya tells Adolin that spren knew something bad and painful would happen to them if bonds were to break ,in towards end of ROW . i think she mentioned that they didn't specifically knew what would happen , only vague sence of dread , pain etc.  she didn't knew that they would become deadeyes.

 

we also know that dead eyes first ever appeared in history due to events of  recreance ( there is a WoB somewhere about it) . recreance happened( I think ,soon) after end of false desolation . false desolation was considered won when last bondsmith of sibling captured Ba Ado Mishram in a perfect gem.

 

several sources in SA seems to think that capturing of Ba Ado Mishram was a bad decision as it  had significant  consequences for roshar .Singers lost their identity completely and became something of slave form when they couldn't even look  after for them selves. Honor lost his mind after that , so this capture may have some hand in death of Honor  it does seem far fetched , but still a possibility . dead eyes happend after that event . it is highly unlikely that no single radiant ever broke their bond befor recreance. so why dead eyes were seen only that time and afterwards ? these events seem connected someway.

 

also there is something fishy with missing vast majority of shardplates and blades resulting from dead spren.

Edited January 3, 2023 by nyxvoid

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is not a fact, Ashyn both still exists and is habitable in certain regions.

You know what I meant, everyone knows what I meant - let's not argue semantics. The world "destruction" is often used to describe that event.

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is not a fact. The invasion of singer lands was the shame the Radinats needed comfort for.

From coppermind 

Quote

The Knights Radiant somehow discovered that Surgebinding had destroyed Ashyn, the world mankind first inhabited, and humans then invaded Roshar, the Dawnsingers' land. When previous generations had learned this fact, Honor had counseled them that their cause was just. During the generation of the Recreance, Honor was deteriorating under the onslaught of Odium and did not do so. Instead, he raved about the Dawnshards, ancient weapons responsible for the destruction of Ashyn, and promised the Radiants they would also destroy Roshar. In order to save the world, nine orders decided to give up their powers so that Roshar wouldn't be destroyed like their first world was. - OB ch 113

I don't have english version of OB, so can't provide quote. What is "this fact" in Coppermind - the destruction of Ashyn, or invasion, or both, not what you think or belive to be the truth, but how the text and wording of this sentences suggest it?  But I've understood it as it was both destruction of Ashyn and later invasion of Singers that needed reassurance from Honor, and that's how I've remembered it described in the books. Not one of those events, but two combined.

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Due to the Dawnshard protecting itself.

That's a possibility, and also to prevent it from bonding with someone so it can't destroy another world. 

 

Also didn't Odium claimed that humanity would also destroy the Roshar like Ashyn?

Also also, to previous points, if Dawnshard's torments were applied to its current holders, then they would be unable to hurt people, like Hoid and someone else we know - causing destruction of the planet and severe burns on survivors looks pretty harmful. Splittening of Adonalsium also seams very harmful. So it's speculative that Dawnshards doesn't have torments before they gave it up. But again - no proofs and WoBs on that yet.

 

8 minutes ago, nyxvoid said:

it is highly unlikely that no single radiant ever broke their bond befor recreance. so why dead eyes were seen only that time and afterwards ? these events seem connected someway.

Cause BAM was conneted to Roshar's spirit web, and capturing her rip a hole in that web, to which sprens were also connected and could feel it, and most likely that's why deadeyes apear only after Recreance.

Edited January 3, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You know what I meant, everyone knows what I meant - let's not argue semantics. The world "destruction" is often used to describe that event.

If you want to argue that using a Dawnshard would inevitably destroy Roshar I will argue against it.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Also also, if Dawnshard's torments were applied to its current holders, then they would be unable to hurt people, like Hoid and someone else we know - causing destruction of the planet and severe burns on survivors looks pretty harmful. Splittening of Adonalsium also seams very harmful. So it's speculative that Dawnshards doesn't have torments before they gave it up. But again - no proofs and WoBs on that yet.

Not all Dawnshards prevent their holder from inflicting harm

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

And even with that, they can still harm Cognitive Shadows as seen by Kelsier, so they could simply destroy the Fused.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

If you want to argue that using a Dawnshard would inevitably destroy Roshar I will argue against it. Dawnshards are powerful, but not that strong.

They did it with Ashyn - not whole planet, but they did something to it that people calls it destruction of Ashyn. So yes, they are that strong. They were able to shatter God.

I argue that people on Roshar had all reasons to believe that if they use a Dawnshard, they would destroy Roshar. So it was in their best interest not to use any Dawnshards, especially in combat.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not all Dawnshards prevent their holder from inflicting harm

And even with that, they can still harm Cognitive Shadows as seen by Kelsier, so they could simply destroy the Fused.

I know not all Dawnshards are the same, and have the same torment, but we don't know which one Hoid hold. Fused are slightly different from Kel - they have body and can FEEL pain therefore it causes them harm - Kel just thought there should be pain and felt it as a result.

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

And Raboniel saying that humans killed fused with sticks.

Moash had zero powers when he killed Leshwi. Fused healing is quite limited compared to Radiants - a hit to the gemheart is instant death - so anyone with a blade could potentially kill one.

A Fused (especially the ones with more combat relevant powers) has a huge advantage against a normal human, but they don't get the "invulnerable to normal harm until out of Investiture" status Radiants do.

1 v 1 the Fused will nearly always win... unless they get overconfident like Leshwi. A Heavenly One can fly away from regular humans easily, and hitting a gemheart with arrows would probably be near impossible.

But if the Fused is stuck in a close fight - either a brand without mobility powers or refusing to flee - its gemheart will eventually get hit. Magnified Ones with super carapace probably do better.

There's still two Brands we haven't seen yet, though. Those might be super powerful.