How busted is compounding?

[alder24]

57 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I probably phrased it badly. But there are multiple examples in the book from Wax and Vin where it's referenced that they Push harder against larger more massive pieces of metal. Mostly in reference to their flight.

This can likely be attributed to two things. One is the larger and more massive a piece of metal is, the further away an Allomancer can be and still keep Pushing on it. This part isn't influenced by the Allomancer's weight

The second reason though is the important part to this conversation. Steelpushing applies the force equally* to both the Allomancer and metal. Accordingly the nature of Newtonian physics means that the greater the disparity in the mass of the two, the harder the less massive one is Pushed away.

*theoretically at least, we do have a few examples of seeming exceptions to this

It's basically like conservation of momentum, if allomancer and the metal have the same mass, they both have the same spead, if allomancer is much heavier, inertia prevents him from moving, and metal flies away. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

When does the weight of the individual ever impact how strong their push is?

So when Wax pushes on train car, he has to have almost the same mass as that car to push it. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

So when Wax pushes on train car, he has to have almost the same mass as that car to push it. 

So that he doesn't get launched backward. But if he were braced in place(and had a way to not die) the effect would have been the same.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So that he doesn't get launched backward. But if he were braced in place(and had a way to not die) the effect would have been the same.

For him not to get launched, he would have to have greater weight than train car. But can he braced? He doesn't have pewter to counter being crushed between two steel pushes. so he most likely just increased his weight well beyond train car (I don't remember what was it in book). In Era 1 Vin was always using pewter to survive being braced between two steel pushes - it's necessary. Without pewter he has to use weight.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

For him not to get launched, he would have to have greater weight than train car. But can he braced? He doesn't have pewter to counter being crushed between two steel pushes. so he most likely just increased his weight well beyond train car (I don't remember what was it in book). In Era 1 Vin was always using pewter to survive being braced between two steel pushes - it's necessary. Without pewter he has to use weight.

Yes, but that doesn't increase the strength of the push is what I'm saying.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but that doesn't increase the strength of the push is what I'm saying.

You right, it doesn't. The steel push is always the same strength, but the strength of its effect on object depends on weight.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In TFE it was painted as being just the weight vs weight.  Once we get to Vin blowing down the doors to the well of ascension things get fuzzy.  Was she burning duralumin for the steel or for the pewter to protect herself?   They both went because thats how duralumin worked but what are the odds her being braced against the wall would have still done the job even if it killed her in the process minus the duralumin?  

Also we don't see Wax dying from internal injury when he turns himself into the anchor point to crush the building... I imagine that would put similar pressure on Wax's body... I also imagine that if he needed pewter to make that work we would have known then.  

I see it as iron tapping makes your body capable of withstanding those forces.  

Weight vs weight determines who/what moves.

But the force seems to be based on Allomantic strength, burn rate (normal / flaring / duralumin), and anchor quality (mass of metal / distance to object / etc.)

Duralumin steel gives a burst of increased force. If Vin had just been braced against the wall burning normal steel and pewter, no duralumin, probably nothing would have happened (the force wouldn't be sufficient either to open the door or crush her against the wall, so the metal gets used up but nothing moves).

Similarly when one of Vin's early uses of duralumin steel + pewter sends horses flying by their horseshoes... without duralumin the horses would probably have stumbled but not much more.

F-iron may help Wax for the same reason suddenly weighing tons doesn't break all his bones. It gives enough structural strength the increased weight isn't harmful, though not muscular strength (that's pewter).

Edited January 9, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but that doesn't increase the strength of the push is what I'm saying.

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You right, it doesn't. The steel push is always the same strength, but the strength of its effect on object depends on weight.

I believe the strength of steel is more a matter of how small am object or how invested an object can be before you can no longer have an affect with it.  

Although that makes me question how flaring actually increases it... if you can already shove an object would you more umph! out of that shove?  

Like a really hot loaded .357 Buffalo Bore vs some light cowboy loads...  

It still wouldn't effect the size difference rules we have it would just effect the velocity of whichever side is smaller... 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Weight vs weight determines who/what moves.

But the force seems to be based on Allomantic strength, burn rate (normal / flaring / duralumin), and anchor quality (mass of metal / distance to object / etc.)

Duralumin steel gives a burst of increased force. If Vin had just been braced against the wall burning normal steel and pewter, no duralumin, probably nothing would have happened (the force wouldn't be sufficient either to open the door or crush her against the wall, so the metal gets used up but nothing moves).

Similarly when one of Vin's early uses of duralumin steel + pewter sends horses flying by their horseshoes... without duralumin the horses would probably have stumbled but not much more.

F-iron may help Wax for the same reason suddenly weighing tons doesn't break all his bones. It gives enough structural strength the increased weight isn't harmful, though not muscular strength (that's pewter).

Okay perfect.  That is pretty much what I was picturing... 

Wax may not have had the strength of a lerasium mistborn in that the factory gets obliterated by him... he may not have had the powder to punch through it... but he had the weight to make it buckle no matter the allomantic strength.  

Likewise, I think Vin with the wall would have still broken through that door... it would have been far more time under tension and the pewter would not have been enough on its own.  When she duralumin burned she likely loaded up a bunch more powder for the shot and the pewter simply kept her alive.  

Both feats required more than just steel alone or else the allomancer surely would have died.  Wax was saved by the feruchemy allowing his body to withstand those forces and weight.  Vin survived because she had a massive pewter flare along with it causing her body to survive the forces.  

 

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe the strength of steel is more a matter of how small am object or how invested an object can be before you can no longer have an affect with it.  

Although that makes me question how flaring actually increases it... if you can already shove an object would you more umph! out of that shove?  

Strength of the steel push is the same, is constant without flaring. It is how much power you can get from burning your steel. But strength of the effect of steel push on object vary, as you now look at the effect your steel push have on different object, which depends on values like weight, distance, angle, being braced etc, and strength of your steel push (like Vin had stronger steel push than Kelsier, but due to mass difference, they both had almost equal effect on coin) Those factors determinate how strong effect deos your steel push have on something.

Flaring increace your strength of the steel push. I don't konw if there is any value for steel, but for pewter, it makes you 3 times stronger, while non-flared pewter only 2x. So expect something similar with steel.

[JustOneMoreQuesiton]

[screwed up the spoilers so nuking this until i figure out a better way to word it]

Edited January 10, 2023 by JustOneMoreQuesiton

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, JustOneMoreQuesiton said:

 

TLM spoilers aren't allowed here.

[StanLemon]

11 hours ago, JustOneMoreQuesiton said:

[screwed up the spoilers so nuking this until i figure out a better way to word it]

As long as you put in a spoiler box it should be fine

[cometaryorbit]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Strength of the steel push is the same, is constant without flaring. It is how much power you can get from burning your steel. But strength of the effect of steel push on object vary, as you now look at the effect your steel push have on different object, which depends on values like weight, distance, angle, being braced etc, and strength of your steel push

Yeah. I think there are basically three steps:

1) strength of the Push itself, which is based on the fundamental strength of the Allomancer (Elend > Vin > normal Era 1 strength > normal Era 2 strength) and modified by burn rate ( duralumin > flaring > normal)

2) "effectiveness"/efficiency of the Push: if the metal object is too far away or too small, not all the force the Push *could* apply will actually be applied.

3) weight (presumably actually mass): Given a certain force from steps 2 and 3, weight determines who/what moves and how much.

I think being braced affects both 2 and 3. Obviously if Vin is braced against a city wall she won't move because the Push is trying to move not only her mass but the entire mass of the city wall (step 3). But it *also* seems like a coin braced against a wall or the ground is a better anchor (higher Push effectiveness - step 2) than a free-flying coin.

 

When Vin and Kelsier have their early training Pushing match, Kelsier is still able to win because of his greater mass (step 3). But he feels much more force than he was expecting, feels beat up afterward, because Vin's fundamental strength (step 1) is more than he was expecting. That greater force is applied to both of them, but it moves Vin more (but it still pummels Kelsier, his body still has to take the strain of being an anchor for it - and presumably his somewhat lesser Allomantic strength means he gets less pewter boost for that than Vin).

Edited January 10, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Could it be that the amount of power is based off of mass, due to work being provided, rather than energy?

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Could it be that the amount of power is based off of mass, due to work being provided, rather than energy?

I doubt it, because if nothing moves no work is done - I think Vin pushing on the door to the Well with regular steel, when she's not moving (because she's braced against the wall and the door is too heavy) before she burns duralumin, is still putting out force.

[CMac716]

Well, we know that the make up of alloys affects their potency, such that they need to be nearly exact for them to work and  making you sick or killing you if they're too far off. Do we think perhaps the atomic structure, similar to gemstones on Roshar holding Stormlight better with perfect structure?

[rabidhexley]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah. I think there are basically three steps:

1) strength of the Push itself, which is based on the fundamental strength of the Allomancer (Elend > Vin > normal Era 1 strength > normal Era 2 strength) and modified by burn rate ( duralumin > flaring > normal)

2) "effectiveness"/efficiency of the Push: if the metal object is too far away or too small, not all the force the Push *could* apply will actually be applied.

3) weight (presumably actually mass): Given a certain force from steps 2 and 3, weight determines who/what moves and how much.

I think being braced affects both 2 and 3. Obviously if Vin is braced against a city wall she won't move because the Push is trying to move not only her mass but the entire mass of the city wall (step 3). But it *also* seems like a coin braced against a wall or the ground is a better anchor (higher Push effectiveness - step 2) than a free-flying coin.

 

When Vin and Kelsier have their early training Pushing match, Kelsier is still able to win because of his greater mass (step 3). But he feels much more force than he was expecting, feels beat up afterward, because Vin's fundamental strength (step 1) is more than he was expecting. That greater force is applied to both of them, but it moves Vin more (but it still pummels Kelsier, his body still has to take the strain of being an anchor for it - and presumably his somewhat lesser Allomantic strength means he gets less pewter boost for that than Vin).

This seems fairly accurate.

 

In my mind it's always kind of been like F = MA (on the allomancer) given an allomantic push in a frictionless vacuum against an infinitely heavy anchor. Where M = Mass of the Allomancer, A = How fast the allomancer accelerates away and is dependent on how hard the allomancer is pushing (stronger allomancer's can accelerate more), and the final force F (the actual output force of a given Push) is just dependent on the previous variables. So in this formula Acceleration basically serves as a drop-in variable for "Allomantic Strength", assuming they're pushing as hard as they can.

 

The acceleration achieved (by the allomancer) by the allomantic push doesn't care about the mass of the allomancer, and the Force of the push is entirely dependent on the Mass and Acceleration. Take two Mistborn of exactly equal strength, but one weighs twice as much as the other, they can both accelerate a roughly equal amount if they push equally hard. So, due to their greater mass, the heavier allomancer is capable of higher force pushes. If the lighter allomancer was stronger than the heavier one (such as Vin v Kelsier), they're able to apply a higher degree of allomantic acceleration, and thus force. It's just important to note that Pushing isn't apply force, it's applying acceleration.

 

I think for this reason you could more accurately characterize Steel/Iron Allomancy as magically applying Acceleration to your body, not force. If it was force Wax would be able to drop his weight to near zero, push, and fly like a literal bullet (and at the same time wouldn't be able to pull off feats like stopping a train). But his weight doesn't effect his ability to accelerate his own body (that's always the same), just other objects. Duralumin pushes allow instantaneous pushes with incredible acceleration, but the math is still the same.

 

In terms of anchor mass, I think it only matters in terms of the quality and effective range. The limit is 100% bodily-acceleration (however much that is depending on the "strength" of the Push) regardless of the mass of the anchor, as the anchor moves away from the allomancer you start dropping below 100% until they can't apply any acceleration to the object. At close range even low mass objects like coins work for near 100% acceleration, but fall off more quickly. The maximum height you can hover over a given anchor is the distance at which you can apply 9.8 m/s^2 of bodily-acceleration (in Earth gravity). Bigger anchor, greater distance, but never more than 100% acceleration.

 

For Iron apply all of this just in reverse, bodily-acceleration towards the anchor, all rules apply the same. Heavier allomancers can pull with greater force due to applying more mass to the acceleration.

Edited January 10, 2023 by rabidhexley

[IlstrawberrySeed]

This works much better than what I was thinking, but with the same basic principles.

[rabidhexley]

24 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

This works much better than what I was thinking, but with the same basic principles.

Seems to explain most principles and feats (crushing buildings, stopping trains, spoiled tomato, etc.) fairly cleanly. And it works in a magical sense in my eyes. Steel & Iron are just trying to accelerate your body to and from objects, and don't care how much you weigh. Fortunately/unfortunately, the rest of the world- and the objects you're pulling/pushing on -care very much about your weight, and you end up with the whacky stuff Coinshots, Crashers, and Duralumin pushes are capable of.

Edited January 10, 2023 by rabidhexley

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

27 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

This seems fairly accurate.

 

In my mind it's always kind of been like F = MA (on the allomancer) given an allomantic push in a frictionless vacuum against an infinitely heavy anchor. Where M = Mass of the Allomancer, A = How fast the allomancer accelerates away and is dependent on how hard the allomancer is pushing (stronger allomancer's can accelerate more), and the final force F (the actual output force of a given Push) is just dependent on the previous variables. So in this formula Acceleration basically serves as a drop-in variable for "Allomantic Strength", assuming they're pushing as hard as they can.

 

The acceleration achieved (by the allomancer) by the allomantic push doesn't care about the mass of the allomancer, and the Force of the push is entirely dependent on the Mass and Acceleration. Take two Mistborn of exactly equal strength, but one weighs twice as much as the other, they can both accelerate a roughly equal amount if they push equally hard. So, due to their greater mass, the heavier allomancer is capable of higher force pushes. If the lighter allomancer was stronger than the heavier one (such as Vin v Kelsier), they're able to apply a higher degree of allomantic acceleration, and thus force. It's just important to note that Pushing isn't apply force, it's applying acceleration.

 

I think for this reason you could more accurately characterize Steel/Iron Allomancy as magically applying Acceleration to your body, not force. If it was force Wax would be able to drop his weight to near zero, push, and fly like a literal bullet  But his weight doesn't effect his ability to accelerate his own body (that's always the same), just other objects. Duralumin pushes allow instantaneous pushes with incredible acceleration, but the math is still the same.

 

In terms of anchor mass, I think it only matters in terms of the quality and effective range. The limit is 100% bodily-acceleration (however much that is depending on the "strength" of the Push) regardless of the mass of the anchor, as the anchor moves away from the allomancer you start dropping below 100% until they can't apply any acceleration to the object. At close range even low mass objects like coins work for near 100% acceleration, but fall off more quickly. The maximum height you can hover over a given anchor is the distance at which you can apply 9.8 m/s^2 of bodily-acceleration (in Earth gravity). Bigger anchor, greater distance, but never more than 100% acceleration.

 

For Iron apply all of this just in reverse, bodily-acceleration towards the anchor, all rules apply the same. Heavier allomancers can pull with greater force due to applying more mass to the acceleration.

This is pretty much how I pictured it.  Same 300 grain bullet out of a 45 colt would be your typical TFE powered mistborn.  Then you have the 45-70 as the lerasium mistborn which even at the same weight basically packs that much more ump.  More powder behind that hunk of lead.  

As for Wax... That is something I have been wishing brandon did more to show.  It happened in his conversation in BoM where he mentioned storing a going faster vs tapping and slowing down.  Conservation of momentum does say that if he doubled his size before a push off of the ground and then stored as much as he possibly could once airborn he would take off a bit like a rocket.  He should have the ability to double / triple / even more his speed based on how heavy he was when he pushes.  As for slowing down so many people get confused by the idea of becoming light as a feather but all he really needs to do is make himself two / three / or more times as heavy as he is falling to sap all of that speed and land safely with his feruchemically enhanced bone structure build to withstand those forces that come with being so heavy.  

[rabidhexley]

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is pretty much how I pictured it.  Same 300 grain bullet out of a 45 colt would be your typical TFE powered mistborn.  Then you have the 45-70 as the lerasium mistborn which even at the same weight basically packs that much more ump.  More powder behind that hunk of lead.  

As for Wax... That is something I have been wishing brandon did more to show.  It happened in his conversation in BoM where he mentioned storing a going faster vs tapping and slowing down.  Conservation of momentum does say that if he doubled his size before a push off of the ground and then stored as much as he possibly could once airborn he would take off a bit like a rocket.  He should have the ability to double / triple / even more his speed based on how heavy he was when he pushes.  As for slowing down so many people get confused by the idea of becoming light as a feather but all he really needs to do is make himself two / three / or more times as heavy as he is falling to sap all of that speed and land safely with his feruchemically enhanced bone structure build to withstand those forces that come with being so heavy.  

Indeed. There may be confounding factors and raw limits at the high end, but he's literally crushed a building, which would generally count out force as a general limitation.

 

In terms of flying like a rocket/bullet, it does seem that if he was flying through the air at multiplied (or even just normal) weight, and suddenly dropped, conservation of momentum should send him flying. But we've never had confirmation of this, and I think Wax would use this if he could. He could get to the top of skyscrapers by just using a normal Steel push and dropping his weight mid-flight to speed up.

 

I think that tapping weight effects speed since the existing momentum has to be applied to the additional weight, but maybe when storing weight the excess momentum is sheered off along with the mass. Sort of like holding onto a rock when it's launched from a catapult, you drop the rock and you don't speed up because that extra momentum leaves with the rock. The whatever extra momentum was held by that extra weight leaves along with it.

 

I think this is the case because you wouldn't even need to be a Crasher for some stupid conservation of momentum weight-storing feats. A basic Iron Ferring could literally just jump at normal weight, immediately drop their weight to a feather, and launch into the air. Landing would be problematic, but too late to worry about that now.

Edited January 10, 2023 by rabidhexley

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, rabidhexley said:

Indeed. There may be confounding factors and raw limits at the high end, but he's literally crushed a building, which would generally count out force as a general limitation.

 

In terms of flying like a rocket/bullet, it does seem that if he was flying through the air at multiplied (or even just normal) weight, and suddenly dropped, conservation of momentum should send him flying. But we've never had confirmation of this, and I think Wax would use this if he could. He could get to the top of skyscrapers by just using a normal Steel push and dropping his weight mid-flight to speed up.

 

It's possible that tapping weight effects speed since the existing momentum has to be applied to the additional weight, but maybe when storing weight the excess momentum is sheered off along with the mass. Sort of like holding onto a rock when it's launched from a catapult, you drop the rock and you don't speed up because that extra momentum leaves with the rock. The whatever extra momentum was held by that extra weight leaves along with it.

 

I think this is the case because you wouldn't even need to be a Crasher for some stupid conservation of momentum weight-storing feats. A basic Iron Ferring could literally just jump at normal weight, immediately drop their weight to a feather, and launch into the air. Landing would be problematic, but too late to worry about that now.

As far as landing it should be EZPZ.  Double your weight and your speed cuts in half.  It doesn't take a bunch of weight to slow you down to next to nothing and at that point your body is magically enhanced to absorb the shock of falling at that weight.  

[rabidhexley]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As far as landing it should be EZPZ.  Double your weight and your speed cuts in half.  It doesn't take a bunch of weight to slow you down to next to nothing and at that point your body is magically enhanced to absorb the shock of falling at that weight.  

Maybe risky because you're still experiencing gravitational acceleration regardless of mass. You're cutting instantaneous velocity, but not acceleration due to gravity. And even though your body is magically enhanced, if you don't manage to correctly time cutting your speed to almost nothing close enough to the ground to avoid coming in hot you're dealing with a lot of momentum your body needs to arrest. I guess you could just ramp up tapping the metalmind as you approach the ground though.

 

Momentum in downward free fall is something that I don't think was considered in any case lol

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, rabidhexley said:

Maybe risky because you're still experiencing gravitational acceleration regardless of mass. You're cutting instantaneous velocity, but not acceleration due to gravity. And even though your body is magically enhanced, if you don't manage to correctly time cutting your speed to almost nothing close enough to the ground to avoid coming in hot you're dealing with a lot of momentum your body needs to arrest. I guess you could just ramp up tapping the metalmind as you approach the ground though.

 

Momentum in downward free fall is something that I don't think was considered in any case lol

I have always liked the idea of making some John Carter of Mars character capable of jumping stupid distances and safely landing.  If the momentum gets shed as you drop weight (which I totally see as a possibility though its one of those weird parts of iron feruchemy that breaks science for me, just like how mass doesnt actually increase because then you would have super dense walls of men walking around) ... If the momentum does get shed then I suppose going A-pewter and F-iron would be the closest to that.  Pewter strength jump at next to no weight at all and then slowly tap as you approach the ground.  

And yeah, bad timing could easily get you pancaked on the ground.  

[rabidhexley]

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If the momentum gets shed as you drop weight (which I totally see as a possibility though its one of those weird parts of iron feruchemy that breaks science for me, just like how mass doesnt actually increase because then you would have super dense walls of men walking around)

In this case I'm just imagining it as the metalmind absorbing the mass and taking whatever mass-relevant properties it was experiencing (position, gravity, acceleration, velocity, momentum, etc.) along with it. The properties aren't being stored like the weight, but are being absorbed into the spiritual realm since they were acting upon the weight. They don't get applied to whatever mass/weight is being left behind. 

 

But when you tap the metalmind, you're adding mass to the physical world and so existing real-world physical properties such as momentum need to be spread out to accommodate it. Like if you grabbed a 5 lb drone hovering in the air mid-flight, you need to now accelerate the extra mass. But if you launched with that same drone in your hands from the beginning, dropping it won't speed you up. Basically freuchemy is treating the weight like an actual physical thing being added or removed.