Kandra Blessings

[Eric]

Honestly, I thought that the Blessing = 2 Spikes was another reference to the rule of 16. Consider the powers of 2 in all of our hemalurgic gents: 2 for the Kandra, 4 for the Koloss, and 11 for the Inquisitors. That last one doesn't seem to fit, until you remember that Marsh said it was 2 in the head, 8 in the chest, and 1 in the back to seal them. All of them seem to be gravitating towards powers of 2 in their groupings.

[Ari he/him]

There's also the possibility that some bind points function in pairs.

[Chaos he/him]

This may be true; the "arithmetic" of souls may well be more complex that 1+1=2 (plenty of things are). My fundamental point is, the patches are never as effective as they were in the original context. Thus you can't get a fully sentient creature by just patching in the sentient part from another. You need at least two patches. However, it's entirely in line with Hemalurgy that you then get more than full sentience from two patches, e.g. the blessing comes along as well. We also know that it is possible to have more than two patches, which results in an unusually powerful, but not notably more intelligent, Kandra. (TenSoon was pretty intelligent to begin with, but the extra blessing didn't seem to affect that one way or the other.)

I very much like this.

Honestly, I thought that the Blessing = 2 Spikes was another reference to the rule of 16. Consider the powers of 2 in all of our hemalurgic gents: 2 for the Kandra, 4 for the Koloss, and 11 for the Inquisitors. That last one doesn't seem to fit, until you remember that Marsh said it was 2 in the head, 8 in the chest, and 1 in the back to seal them. All of them seem to be gravitating towards powers of 2 in their groupings.

One problem is that the amount of spikes in an Inquisitor actually varies. It's usually between nine and eleven spikes. For example, the Inquisitor Vin and Elend kill in the beginning of Hero of Ages had nine spikes. (I don't have the book near, so it could have been ten, but I distinctly remember that it wasn't eleven and it threw me off initially.)

[Deus Ex Biotica]

And there's the issue where adding more spikes to either a Kandra or an Inquisitor does not make them into a new sort of being.

Here's a notion: what if two spikes is a "threshold" for Feruchemy changing you into a different species. Vin and Spook each get one spike, and remain largely themselves. But Inquisitors are no longer human, even though they do not seem to get an Attribute Spikes. Maybe once you have two spikes, there starts to be as much "other" Spiritweb as there is "original" Spiritweb, so it's the cutoff point for staying the same being.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Chaos he/him]

And there's the issue where adding more spikes to either a Kandra or an Inquisitor does not make them into a new sort of being.

Here's a notion: what if two spikes is a "threshold" for Feruchemy changing you into a different species. Vin and Spook each get one spike, and remain largely themselves. But Inquisitors are no longer human, even though they do not seem to get an Attribute Spikes. Maybe once you have two spikes, there starts to be as much "other" Spiritweb as there is "original" Spiritweb, so it's the cutoff point for staying the same being.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I don't know about that. I don't really consider Inquisitors to be a separate race. Yes, I know Sazed considers them a separate race. but in that same line, he says that you could consider an Allomantic savant as no longer human. But come on, regardless of Spook's powers, he was a human. Warped by power, I suppose. There's a scale of warping on the imaginary Humanity Continuum, and while Spook and Inquisitors are further away from human, they seem human to me. After all, Inquisitors can procreate like regular humans. It's a fuzzy line.

It may be somewhat a futile effort to try to think too hard about the distinctions of species. It's a question biologists always discuss, because there's many different ways to define what a species is. But come now. Inquisitors have neither blue skin nor translucent skin. Human enough for me

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Isn't a component of the transformation to koloss the skin of a dead one, not only the spikes? Could this be a factor?

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I don't know about that. I don't really consider Inquisitors to be a separate race. Yes, I know Sazed considers them a separate race. but in that same line, he says that you could consider an Allomantic savant as no longer human. But come on, regardless of Spook's powers, he was a human. Warped by power, I suppose. There's a scale of warping on the imaginary Humanity Continuum, and while Spook and Inquisitors are further away from human, they seem human to me. After all, Inquisitors can procreate like regular humans. It's a fuzzy line.

Can they?

I draw my comment about them no longer being human not just from the fact that they are no longer surviving due to the actions of their organs (I wonder if they even need to eat), but also from the Hero Of Ages annotations for chapter forty

The Inquisitors were always so determined to catch the skaa. So passionate. With good reason, for that was the only means by which their race—and Inquisitors are a separate race, just like the koloss and the kandra—could perpetuate itself.

In the annotation for 44, he also commends the subtlety in Rashek designing three new races before he began altering the biology of the world's plants and animals.

So, it might or might not have anything to do with the exact number of spikes, but no matter what color their skin, Inquisitors are no longer human.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Chaos he/him]

Can they?

I draw my comment about them no longer being human not just from the fact that they are no longer surviving due to the actions of their organs (I wonder if they even need to eat), but also from the Hero Of Ages annotations for chapter forty

In the annotation for 44, he also commends the subtlety in Rashek designing three new races before he began altering the biology of the world's plants and animals.

So, it might or might not have anything to do with the exact number of spikes, but no matter what color their skin, Inquisitors are no longer human.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Yes, I'm well aware of that, but they can indeed reproduce through normal human methods. My point still stands.

20. Can Inquisitors still breed through human reproductive methods?

ANSWER: Yes.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ookla the Inalterable

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Hurm.

I will admit, that makes his comment about them being a different species puzzling.

[Chaos he/him]

Hurm.

I will admit, that makes his comment about them being a different species puzzling.

I know right? The species puzzle is confusing, and depends on how you define them. For my purposes at least, they are much more human than kandra or koloss, so they definitely slide more on the human side of the spectrum.

Of course, if an Inquisitor had a child, that child wouldn't be an Inquisitor itself, so it wouldn't be "truly" perpetuating the Inquisitor race.

[Haven]

There's also the possibility that some bind points function in pairs.

This follows along with that I think, if you remember whenever the Kandra were in a humanoid form their Blessing spikes were always located in the region of their "shoulders"

I think it's the idea that of the 300 or so possible bind points by activated points I dunno let's say 161 and 162, with hemalurtic spikes it changes the mist wraith enough to promote sentience and recover any previous memory. The fact that by the nature of Hemalurgy something must be taken to charge the spike creates the blessing.

To sum it all up, in the technical sense spiking mist wraiths is intending to give them the Blessing, with the sentience as side effect that the Lord Ruler discovered in his "phenomenal cosmic power" state.

[happyman he/him]

I know right? The species puzzle is confusing, and depends on how you define them. For my purposes at least, they are much more human than kandra or koloss, so they definitely slide more on the human side of the spectrum.

Of course, if an Inquisitor had a child, that child wouldn't be an Inquisitor itself, so it wouldn't be "truly" perpetuating the Inquisitor race.

It is a puzzle. Maybe it has more to do with their fundamental urges and mindset than it does with their biology? Somehow they find creating a new Inquisitor satisfying, whereas they no longer find the "standard technique" fulfilling? (From Marshs' description of his spiking, this seems likely.)

My mind is now wandering to some really odd quirks inquisitors would have if this were true.

[Guest Galavantes]

I know right? The species puzzle is confusing, and depends on how you define them. For my purposes at least, they are much more human than kandra or koloss, so they definitely slide more on the human side of the spectrum.

Of course, if an Inquisitor had a child, that child wouldn't be an Inquisitor itself, so it wouldn't be "truly" perpetuating the Inquisitor race.

I don't see a disconnect here. Technically the "human reproductive method" is just intercourse leading to sperm + egg = crying hellspawn..I mean baby. This is the same "method" used by dogs, cats, horses, etc. None of these are the same species. Also as noted the offspring of an Inquisitor and a human would (probably) not be an inquisitor, but could certainly be a little different than a normal human. This is similar to a horse mating with a mule. While they aren't technically the same species, their DNA is close enough to allow them to birth a donkey, which is an entirely different species also.

So my argument is that if Brandon says they're not human then they're not human, but they are close enough genetically that they mate in a similar fashion, and in fact can probably successfully mate with a human. Depending on your definition of success.

[Guest Galavantes]

Also I'd like to note that "reproduce" and "produce more of" are not the same. Spiking a human to create an Inquisitor is not reproduction, just production.

[happyman he/him]

Also I'd like to note that "reproduce" and "produce more of" are not the same. Spiking a human to create an Inquisitor is not reproduction, just production.

If Sazed hadn't described them as a new species intent on creating more of themselves via killing Mistings, I would be more likely to agree with you.

[Aradel he/him]

I tend to think that Inquizitors are in fact a different species. First, there is the quote by Sazed which seems pretty explicit. Second, they have 11 spikes. Even if Misting(allomantic) and Ferring(Feruchemic) spikes don't warp the subject as much as Human(Kandra Blessing) Spikes, 11 should be more than enough to warp them. Lastly, they may still be able to breed w/ humans even as a different species. Like the Koloss.

Think of Inquizitors like lions that were magically changed into tigers. They can still breed with Lions, although the offspring won't really be either.

[Ari he/him]

I tend to think that Inquizitors are in fact a different species. First, there is the quote by Sazed which seems pretty explicit. Second, they have 11 spikes. Even if Misting(allomantic) and Ferring(Feruchemic) spikes don't warp the subject as much as Human(Kandra Blessing) Spikes, 11 should be more than enough to warp them. Lastly, they may still be able to breed w/ humans even as a different species. Like the Koloss.

Think of Inquizitors like lions that were magically changed into tigers. They can still breed with Lions, although the offspring won't really be either.

Scientifically speaking, there's no doubt, inquisitors wouldn't be a species.

It might make sense to talk of them as a distinct "race", however.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

the scientific definition of species is a bit muddled, there's a lot of argument over it.

[Bremen]

True, but I don't think any definition would support Inquisitors as a separate species.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Would kandra be able to reproduce with humans, if they created the proper organs? I see no reason why not, although I'm not sure why they would. (Although a story about a kandra who decided to be human, and live like a normal human could be fascinating.)

And kandra are clearly a separate species.

One thing to consider is how much spiritual DNA affects reproduction. Certainly an inquisitor's spiritual DNA is warped enough that I think it would be considered a different species if it was real DNA.

[Guest Galavantes]

If Sazed hadn't described them as a new species intent on creating more of themselves via killing Mistings, I would be more likely to agree with you.

My argument is that they are actually a different species (as the book and Brandon seem to say), just that spiking isn't actually reproduction. They can reproduce via intercourse, we just don't know what the actual product of that would be.

[happyman he/him]

It's true that the scientific definition of species is sometimes muddled. However, the state of the word race is much, much more muddled, and frankly I don't think it clarifies the situation at all.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

It's true that the scientific definition of species is sometimes muddled. However, the state of the word race is much, much more muddled, and frankly I don't think it clarifies the situation at all.

Especially as, if WoK is any indication, Brandon plans on running the definitions of race and species through the wringer.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Ultimately, I have to conclude that it doesn't really matter whether they are a "different species" or not.

Their biology works very differently, (insofar as it works at all), since they should functionally be dead, but are kept alive through the extra souls attached to them, they have different senses, and they lived apart from outsiders, but they could still sire human children on other humans. Any question we have about them, we can answer through their properties, rather than by contemplating whether those properties make them a "species" or not.

Note that this only holds until there is some kind of magic which cares about "species" status, at which point Brandon's statement that, as far as he's concerned, they are a separate species will provide the best guideline available.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Although, it did just occur to me that there might be some interesting ground in the implied fact that changing spiritual DNA does not alter physical DNA, even if it does alter the body's functioning.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Agree with Ex Biotica. The only question on this topic which matters in my mind is what the offspring of an Inquisitor and a human would be like, and it doesn't seem likely to me that Marsh will be having any children any time soon.