What would Fused with Adhesion be like?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

As we know, there are no Fused with access to the Surge of Adhesion.

But what if there was one that did? What could they do? What would they be called?

My idea is that they would be called "The Binded Ones", I'm not sure what they're 'Passive' ability would be, I originally thought that it would be that they could use Full Lashing on their own bodies to stick to things, like Spider-Man, and crawl on walls and stuff. But apparently you can't use Full Lashing on yourself for some reason? 

Any other ideas?

 

[bmcclure7]

43 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

As we know, there are no Fused with access to the Surge of Adhesion.

But what if there was one that did? What could they do? What would they be called?

My idea is that they would be called "The Binded Ones", I'm not sure what they're 'Passive' ability would be, I originally thought that it would be that they could use Full Lashing on their own bodies to stick to things, like Spider-Man, and crawl on walls and stuff. But apparently you can't use Full Lashing on yourself for some reason? 

Any other ideas?

 

Passive ability speak any language without using void light 

Edited January 8, 2023 by bmcclure7

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Passive ability speak any language 

That's an application of Spiritual Adhesion, the kind of Adhesion that Bondsmiths can use. 

Not sure if any other kind of Surgebinder could use it but it's an alright suggestion.

[bmcclure7]

Just now, JustQuestin2004 said:

That's an application of Spiritual Adhesion, the kind of Adhesion that Bondsmiths can use. 

Not sure if any other kind of Surgebinder could use it but it's an alright suggestion.

But it's the same surge yes?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

But it's the same surge yes?

Yes but we don't know for sure if anyone other than a Bondsmith can use the Spiritual Applications of their Surges. 

Edit:

Both Bondsmiths and Windrunners can stick stuff together with regular Adhesion, but we've never seen a Windrunner use Adhesion to Connect themselves to someone else to speak another language.

Edited January 8, 2023 by JustQuestin2004

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Yes but we don't know for sure if anyone other than a Bondsmith can use the Spiritual Applications of their Surges. 

Edit:

Both Bondsmiths and Windrunners can stick stuff together with regular Adhesion, but we've never seen a Windrunner use Adhesion to Connect themselves to someone else to speak another language.

I see well  I like your spider climb idea. I know it doesn't work for the night's radiance but perhaps it could still work for a fused.  There's still a lot we don't understand about their passives mean look at the pursuer.  

 Alternatively maybe his passive could be a regular lashing But as long as they keep touching the object  they don't use void light.  They Could specialize in grappling and restraining people

 Honestly this should be a question someone should ask Brandon Sanderson. Actually any questions about their passives and how they work would be nice.  

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

34 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I see well  I like your spider climb idea. I know it doesn't work for the night's radiance but perhaps it could still work for a fused.  There's still a lot we don't understand about their passives mean look at the pursuer.  

 Alternatively maybe his passive could be a regular lashing But as long as they keep touching the object  they don't use void light.  They Could specialize in grappling and restraining people

 Honestly this should be a question someone should ask Brandon Sanderson. Actually any questions about their passives and how they work would be nice.  

Interesting idea, it might even work with the Spider-Climb so long as the Fused had gauntlets or very tough gloves.

I also wonder if they would have some strange dual-Connection between Odium and Honor, since Adhesion is 'Honor's Truest Surge'? Maybe they'd be able to breathe in Stormlight as well as Voidlight?

Edit:

Here's a thought, since most Fused think Adhesion isn't a true Surge, they might discriminate against the Binded Ones due to this belief?

Could lead to these hypothetical Binded Ones turning against Odium like some of the Shayan-im did.

Edited January 8, 2023 by JustQuestin2004

[bmcclure7]

18 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Interesting idea, it might even work with the Spider-Climb so long as the Fused had gauntlets or very tough gloves.

I also wonder if they would have some strange dual-Connection between Odium and Honor, since Adhesion is 'Honor's Truest Surge'? Maybe they'd be able to breathe in Stormlight as well as Voidlight?

Edit:

Here's a thought, since most Fused think Adhesion isn't a true Surge, they might discriminate against the Binded Ones due to this belief?

Could lead to these hypothetical Binded Ones turning against Odium like some of the Shayan-im did.

 I suspect that they'd be treated similar to the dust bringers  ( Whom I suspect have odiums trust surge) were by the other orders.  Mainly with suspicion  And comments behind their backs ( At least if in world words of radiance is to be believed)

Edited January 8, 2023 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

I like the idea of sticky skin. So how about skin like a goo, that's super adhesive, and can stick even to a side of Shardblade stopping it? Sticking alone won't help during fight, but if he has skin that is thick and jelly-like, then he can stop any weapon and strike without being hurt. 

[Letryx13]

On 1/8/2023 at 5:35 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Yes but we don't know for sure if anyone other than a Bondsmith can use the Spiritual Applications of their Surges. 

Edit:

Both Bondsmiths and Windrunners can stick stuff together with regular Adhesion, but we've never seen a Windrunner use Adhesion to Connect themselves to someone else to speak another language.

I'm hoping that WindRunners can learn to use Adhesion for languages. Sigzil would love it.

Personally, I think Odium doesn't create fused with Adhesion is because he fears what they could do with it.  I think they would have access to spiritual Adhesion, since physical Adhesion isn't that impressive on it's own.  And since fused surgebinding is more internal, they could probably use Adhesion to connect themselves to various things, such as lands for language.  But considering we still don't fully understand what BondSmiths are capable of, there's probably other things they could use it for.  They might be able to forcibly connect with spren, and who knows what that might lead to.

[Returned]

I don't know if a Fused could use Adhesion in a way that would align with Honor's Intent, being so permeated with Odium's essence as they are. If they could use the Surge at all I have to think it would be in a way that at least follows Odium, if not in a way that directly opposes Honor. I'd call them something like Unravelers or Oathbreakers, and I think that their use of the Surge would be something like taking things which are bound together and cause their connections to weaken and fail.

Physically they'd break things in ways that would make it harder to put them back together (maybe like the reverse of Dalinar fixing the statue, causing edges to be irregular so that they couldn't just be put back together as they were originally). Spiritually (or at least more metaphorically) they'd cause groups to distrust one another by emphasizing things they cared about but didn't have in common, play up ideas and ways of thinking that make it harder for people to keep their oaths (like preventing people from advancing in Radiance, or causing them to fail to live up to their commitments and losing Radiance altogether), and help people keep the letter of oaths but violate the spirit of the agreements as much as possible.

The physical side is interesting because Adhesion seems to be duplicated by some combinations of the Surges relating to axial interconnections and Division. Adhesion has some physical powers, for sure, but it seems to me that its most important (and distinct) contributions to Roshar are less tangible: the creation of the Oathpact, the formation of the Knights Radiant, the coupling of Oaths to powers in the first place, and the concept of gaining might by uniting a changeable person with a less changeable ideal.

[alder24]

I don't think there is anything in particular that makes Odium and Fused opposite to Honor and makes them "break the bonds". Breaking the bonds is more aligned with Ruin than anyone else. Odium as a Shard is still bounded by the Oaths he makes and rules of Shards. Fused also promise and make oaths that they uphold - like Leshwi with Moash, all Heavenly Ones fighting with rules and honor, Lezian swearing to kill everyone that killed him etc. While the idea of Anti-Bondsmith is a fun one, Odium is not the opposite of Honor. But breaking isn't Adhesion, it's Division.

I think that the reason Fused doesn't have an Adhesion equivalent is that Honor is strictly about bonds and oaths, while Odium, till recently, wasn't truly part of Roshar, like Honor was. However now Odium is part of Roshar, his Rhythms are invested in this planet and I think Odium could now create Fused of Adhesion, but so far he has not had the opportunity to do so.

Only Bondsmiths are capable of manipulation of bonds, and it has to do more with the fact that they are bonded with great sprens, than Adhesion itself. Windrunners can't do it, they have Adhesion but can only use it more or less to stick something together, not to manipulate bonds. That form of Adhesion is more "natural" one, and I think could be accesable to Odium.

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only Bondsmiths are capable of manipulation of bonds, and it has to do more with the fact that they are bonded with great sprens, than Adhesion itself. Windrunners can't do it, they have Adhesion but can only use it more or less to stick something together, not to manipulate bonds. That form of Adhesion is more "natural" one, and I think could be accesable to Odium.

WindRunner's access to Adhesion is probably the reason why they can have so many squires.  Kaladin had something close to two dozen during Oathbringer.  I always perceived it as BondSmiths can connect more strongly through spiritual connection, while WindRunners can connect to a greater number of people.  It's possible Adhesion Fused could be capable of something similar, but not in an empowering squires sort of way.  But that might be the kind of power Odium fears. Ordinary charisma is powerful.  Supernaturally enhanced charisma could turn Odium's whole army on its head if any of the Fused with that power rebelled, like Leshwi has.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Letryx13
Misspelling

[Returned]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there is anything in particular that makes Odium and Fused opposite to Honor and makes them "break the bonds".

I put it glibly, but what I had wanted to express is that Odium is about conflict in the same way that Honor is about bonds. It's not bond breaking that would be the focus of an Odium-based Adhesion power, but that the push towards conflict would undermine the commitments that seem to underlie Honor's less physical applications of Adhesion.

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only Bondsmiths are capable of manipulation of bonds, and it has to do more with the fact that they are bonded with great sprens, than Adhesion itself.

I appreciate that this is a popular idea, but I'm not convinced it's accurate; Ishar could manipulate bonds pretty effectively before spren bonds were even a thing, and we don't have any indication that any of the other Heralds could do similarly (so it's not just about proximity to Honor's power). There is certainly more to it than just "powerful spren + Radiant-style bond = Bondsmith". But I'll definitely grant that "Honor's truest Surge" doesn't necessarily mean that Honor needs to be involved with accessing or applying it.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

WindRunner's access to Adhesion is probably the reason why they can have so many squires.  Kaladin had something close to two dozen during Oathbringer. 

Yes, I agree, this is the resonance between their surges.

5 minutes ago, Returned said:

I put it glibly, but what I had wanted to express is that Odium is about conflict in the same way that Honor is about bonds. It's not bond breaking that would be the focus of an Odium-based Adhesion power, but that the push towards conflict would undermine the commitments that seem to underlie Honor's less physical applications of Adhesion.

Creating conflict might be a plausible way of using Adhesion. Yet I still don't know if it fits specifically only Odium's intent. Cultivation also changes and that creates conflicts.

7 minutes ago, Returned said:

I appreciate that this is a popular idea, but I'm not convinced it's accurate; Ishar could manipulate bonds pretty effectively before spren bonds were even a thing, and we don't have any indication that any of the other Heralds could do similarly (so it's not just about proximity to Honor's power). There is certainly more to it than just "powerful spren + Radiant-style bond = Bondsmith". But I'll definitely grant that "Honor's truest Surge" doesn't necessarily mean that Honor needs to be involved with accessing or applying it.

Ashyn's surges were different from Roshar's, despite being called surges. But that's what people on Roshar would call Ishar on Ashyn. So yes, Ishar was a "Bondsmith", capable of manipulating bonds, however it seems that he doesn't possess that abilities anymore, as he took his Honorblade back. I agree that Honor isn't necessary to manipulate connections (lots of examples in Cosmere), and even Radiant Bondsmith bonded with Nightwatcher is connected mostly to Cultivation, not Honor.

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

This WoB I've found suggests that Adhesion surge was not accessible on Ashyn. What do you think?

Spoiler

LettersWords

The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

[Letryx13]

50 minutes ago, Returned said:

I appreciate that this is a popular idea, but I'm not convinced it's accurate; Ishar could manipulate bonds pretty effectively before spren bonds were even a thing, and we don't have any indication that any of the other Heralds could do similarly (so it's not just about proximity to Honor's power). There is certainly more to it than just "powerful spren + Radiant-style bond = Bondsmith". But I'll definitely grant that "Honor's truest Surge" doesn't necessarily mean that Honor needs to be involved with accessing or applying it.

I don't disagree, but to be fair, the only time we've seen Ishar manipulate bonds was with his Honorblade, which was forged from Honor's soul. So it's still connected to his power in some form.

[Returned]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Creating conflict might be a plausible way of using Adhesion. Yet I still don't know if it fits specifically only Odium's intent. Cultivation also changes and that creates conflicts.

I've been basing that interpretation of Odium's Intent through a quote along the lines of "Odium's power can't help but promote conflict, even against itself". I don't recall the exact quote nor where it's from offhand and can't look it up right now, but that's the thrust of it. Based on that I've thought of conflict being as central to Odium as destruction was to Ruin and growth/development is to Cultivation, at least so far. We'll see if that bears out.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ashyn's surges were different from Roshar's, despite being called surges. But that's what people on Roshar would call Ishar on Ashyn. So yes, Ishar was a "Bondsmith", capable of manipulating bonds, however it seems that he doesn't possess that abilities anymore, as he took his Honorblade back. I agree that Honor isn't necessary to manipulate connections (lots of examples in Cosmere), and even Radiant Bondsmith bonded with Nightwatcher is connected mostly to Cultivation, not Honor.

All good and accurate observations. What I'm not as convinced of is the hard division between powers by Shard, given that the three on Roshar are significantly Invested there and that people can apparently use each others' forms of Investiture to power their magic in at least some circumstances (Surges with Stormlight, Lifelight, Towerlight, or Voidlight). My current impression (and I don't have a strong textual basis for this) is that the magic available on Roshar is largely a function of Honor and Cultivation having Invested themselves there so strongly, including defining the Surges themselves; I don't think that their powers are so discretely categorized any more. A Radiant strongly aligned with Cultivation, perhaps more so than Honor, still progresses via Oaths binding them to ideals, and a Radiant strongly aligned with Honor rather than Cultivation still needs to grow and change to advance.

Odium is the odd one out, as a latecomer to the system. But as his Investiture continues to develop there I'd bet that the magic will become more complicated due to needing to interact with his power too (an example being Enlightened spren). I maintain that the powers on Roshar, as elsewhere in the Cosmere, are very heavily mediated by the Shards which grant them. I don't believe that there is any sort of "all else being equal" or "in a vacuum" sort of power. I don't think that Hoid, for example, can just be a Bondsmith despite his enormous Investiture and knowledge, and similarly I don't think that if Syl somehow absorbed enough Investiture Kaladin would suddenly be a Bondsmith.

We'll learn a lot more about this in book 5, when we have Navani and the Sibling as an example (though the Sibling is half Honor anyways), and even more if and when someone bonds the Nightwatcher. At present we don't know much at all about Bondsmithing, but I personally don't see much reason to think that it's about raw power or a spren's greatness.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This WoB I've found suggests that Adhesion surge was not accessible on Ashyn. What do you think?

It's intriguing, but vague to the point of uselessness (which is a big part of the intrigue!). It would make sense, given the fragments we've learned, since Ashyn was primarily under Odium's influence (so no Adhesion) and Honor was on Roshar (so his Surge would be present there along with him). I'm not 100% convinced of this, since the Surges seem to work system-wide, but I just am not knowledgeable enough about the timeline or the nature of the powers to feel confident about any conclusion.

But that just further suggests that Odium's forces can't use Adhesion as others might be able to, if they can use it at all, which is contrary to the topic of the thread. If Adhesion is accessible to a person whose powers derive from Honor to some degree in the first place, that seems uncontroversial. It would be one thing to power it with Voidlight or Lifelight, which should work OK under at least some conditions. But it's another to access one Shard's primary thing through another Shard with a conflicting (though not diametrically opposed) alignment. To my mind it's like Allomancy and Hemalurgy: you can use the latter to become and Allomancer, even Mistborn, but you can't make Hemalurgy not be destructive just because you use it to work with an end-positive power. You could probably find some way to use Odium's power to fiddle with Adhesion (if not necessarily the same way as you would through Honor's power), but if the source of your access to Adhesion is somehow Odium I don't think that you can expect to avoid Odium strongly influencing how that works for you.

But I can appreciate that there are other arguments, even using the same examples, that have obvious merit and that people may find persuasive.

Quote

I don't disagree, but to be fair, the only time we've seen Ishar manipulate bonds was with his Honorblade, which was forged from Honor's soul. So it's still connected to his power in some form.

Very true, but that's why I mentioned that the other Heralds don't seem to have similar abilities. If it were just a matter of Connection to a powerful force, spren or Shard, they would all be able to do similarly. Because they can't (presumably), it follows that it isn't.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Returned
Responded to another response to an earlier post

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I've been basing that interpretation of Odium's Intent through a quote along the lines of "Odium's power can't help but promote conflict, even against itself". I don't recall the exact quote nor where it's from offhand and can't look it up right now, but that's the thrust of it. Based on that I've thought of conflict being as central to Odium as destruction was to Ruin and growth/development is to Cultivation, at least so far. We'll see if that bears out.

If there was such a quote, which I don't remember, then your reasoning seems possible.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I don't think that if Syl somehow absorbed enough Investiture Kaladin would suddenly be a Bondsmith.

I don't think so too, there is more to Bondsmith's spren than just the amount of Investiture.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

and even more if and when someone bonds the Nightwatcher

I predict it's going to be Lift in SA6, maybe later. 

I like the way you're thinking, and I agree with you. I find your use of Adhesion plausible at least, and if Odium can't stop promoting conflict, it's quite likely then. The way you've augmented this convinced me a bit more. Right now I'm in this weird state where I mostly agree, but there is something lacking and I don't know what it is, or where I disagree.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Returned said:

Very true, but that's why I mentioned that the other Heralds don't seem to have similar abilities. If it were just a matter of Connection to a powerful force, spren or Shard, they would all be able to do similarly. Because they can't (presumably), it follows that it isn't.

Again, I don't disagree. But all that regarding the heralds means is that the power can be specialized.  Personally, I think it's a combination that allows for the manipulation of bonds. I don't think a less powerful version of the Storm Father would allow for the same kind of Nahel bond manipulation that we saw Ishar do, for example.  It requires both the specialized ability of Adhesion, and sufficient power behind it.

Of course, we know that other shards have access to connection as well. Not to get too off topic, but Feruchemy can allow for manipulation of connection.  So it's not ridiculous to assume that Odium could allow for the power in some form or another. 

Another idea I've had for the power of connection, and perhaps it's true potential, is to draw power from others into oneself using connections with them.  Drawing on the strength of others to increase the user's own power.  If something like that were possible, and I suspect it could be, then there's no limit to what the power of Adhesion could do.

[Returned]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

If there was such a quote, which I don't remember, then your reasoning seems possible.

Found it! And I didn't think I was going to today, or at all without re-reading all of Rhythm. I'm pretty sure it's the one I was thinking of, though unfortunately it's not quite as I remembered it, and not a great support for my position:

Quote

However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power... It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion. (Rhythm of War, Interludes 2, Sja-anat) (apologies, my digital copy of the book does not have real page numbers, but it's location 5697 of the Kindle edition)

My read of it is that the power likes questions and arguments, full stop. Those can't ever be opposed to the Shard because they're a major part of what it fundamentally is, though the Vessel may not feel similarly. It's the opposite of being agreeable or giving way to another's desires, and doesn't seem conducive to working together as a team. The drive isn't towards conflict, exactly, but certainly towards non-compliance and challenge. This is reflected pretty well in how the Fused seem to operate amongst each other and especially around the Singers, I think. I still feel that my position is correct (or at least a strongly supported interpretation), but 100% respect that others may not find it persuasive based on what I've been able to muster. And I'm suggesting less that Odium's power can't bind things together than that that sort of thing is more in Honor's portfolio, and so I wouldn't expect Odium's contrary and disagreeable aspects to mimic Honor's core thing all that strongly.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I predict it's going to be Lift in SA6, maybe later. 

I like the way you're thinking, and I agree with you. I find your use of Adhesion plausible at least, and if Odium can't stop promoting conflict, it's quite likely then. The way you've augmented this convinced me a bit more. Right now I'm in this weird state where I mostly agree, but there is something lacking and I don't know what it is, or where I disagree.

I also think it's likely to be Lift, and I wonder what issues that might cause. It's a lot of Surges and a lot of raw power to be held by one person, and dual tracks of oaths might be an issue. And I also agree that my theorycrafting here is far from airtight, so I'm not surprised if you and others are holding it in abeyance. I think that we need to see more Voidbinding in action before any theories like this have much weight, and I think that when we do see it it's going to upend a lot of what we've guessed at so far.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Again, I don't disagree. But all that regarding the heralds means is that the power can be specialized.  Personally, I think it's a combination that allows for the manipulation of bonds. I don't think a less powerful version of the Storm Father would allow for the same kind of Nahel bond manipulation that we saw Ishar do, for example.  It requires both the specialized ability of Adhesion, and sufficient power behind it.

Yeah, I don't think that we disagree. I was just reiterating my position that Surgebinding + tons of power from an entity a person is Connected to != Bondsmith. My mention of the Heralds were meant as more of an analogy than a 1:1 comparison.