Quick question

[Psych0k1ll3r]

I'm a little confused about something and wonder if maybe someone can clarify. Is the magic system of surgebinding Odium's magic system? I feel like it says that the people from Ashyn destroyed their planet with surges, moved to Roshar bringing their god Odium, and their powers with them right? so Odium was their god when they destroyed their planet and so how can that be if surgebinding is the magic system of Honor and Cultivation? How could they have gotten access to surgebinding if they were on a different planet with Odium? Thanks in advance 

[Treamayne]

58 minutes ago, Psych0k1ll3r said:

I'm a little confused about something and wonder if maybe someone can clarify. Is the magic system of surgebinding Odium's magic system? I feel like it says that the people from Ashyn destroyed their planet with surges, moved to Roshar bringing their god Odium, and their powers with them right? so Odium was their god when they destroyed their planet and so how can that be if surgebinding is the magic system of Honor and Cultivation? How could they have gotten access to surgebinding if they were on a different planet with Odium? Thanks in advance 

How much of the Stormlight Archive have you read?

Spoiler

Surgebinding as we see in the Stormlight Archive is not necessarily the same maic systme that was in use on Ashyn before the emigration to Roshar. We do know (spoilers for all published works):

Spoiler

• The Magic of the Heralds before the Emigration was amplified with Dawnshards
• The damage was devastating, but Ashyn survived and now has a disease based Magic
  • We do not know if the disease-based system is the same as what Ishar used to cause the damage he did
• The Honoblades are "unchained" and have less limits that normal Surgebinding
• The Nahel bond creates a natural limitation to prevent a similar disaster
• Odium at least influenced some of the events leading up to the devestation of Ashyn

Also, modern Surgebinding is a combination of Honor and Cultivation - which is a contributing reason why the Singers went to war with Humans - they felt betrayed by the Spren and Shards when they bonded Humans, so the Singers went and bonded Odium to become the Fused.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Treamayne
Adding Spoilers

[Psych0k1ll3r]

Thank you for your response. I've read all of them so far. So then are we thinking that the humans used a different magic system to destroy their original planet and then after they began accessing Honor & Cultivation's system, at that point Honor bound the surges because he was worried that they might do the same thing with the Rosharan magic system?

[offer]

25 minutes ago, Psych0k1ll3r said:

Thank you for your response. I've read all of them so far. So then are we thinking that the humans used a different magic system to destroy their original planet and then after they began accessing Honor & Cultivation's system, at that point Honor bound the surges because he was worried that they might do the same thing with the Rosharan magic system?

Something like that. It is unclear what magic the humans had on Ashyn, maybe they had the same powers but accessed differently so saying "different magic system" is dependant on the definition of a magic system but we know it was not powered by Honor.

 

[alder24]

I would say that Surgebinding is all the same, it's manipulation of natural forces and phenomena, like gravity or light. In that definition they use the same magic system on Ashyn that is used on Roshar. But Surgebinding can be manifested by different gods/Shards, they are still working by the same principles as they still manipulate the same forces, but they using it differently. Like Windrunners and Heavenly Ones - they both can manipulete the same surge - Gravitation, but they power it with a different source (Odium vs Honor), which have a bit different effects when they use it. So if you look just at who is powering that surge, they use different magic system.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I would say that Surgebinding is all the same, it's manipulation of natural forces and phenomena, like gravity or light. In that definition they use the same magic system on Ashyn that is used on Roshar.

Well, we know that before the devastation of Ashyn, they manipulated Surges. Part of the definition of Sugebinding is the "binding" and we know that they didn't have Spren or the Spren Bond on Ashyn*. We also don't know if it was the same 10 surges, less or more than 10, or just a different set altogether.

Both systems might legitimately be called Surgebinding. But it's mostly semantics to say either they are the same system or possibly related systems (or separate branches of an over-all system). I, personally, consider them to be different, but related, systems of Investiture.

My personal opinion, based on current known information, is that it was a version of Microkinesis that caused the devastation. That may have been the only Surge they could manipulate, or just one of multiple surges to which they had access. We know Khriss considers Microkinesis to be related to, and much stronger than, Cohesion. We also know that, at least in the unpublished material, Microkinesis was able to cause a fission reaction pre-Shattering. Something like that would fit with what we know of the event(s) on Ashyn pre-emigration.

*Note:

Spoiler

Since the Honorblades were created to limit the power of accessing the surges. Then the Spren mimicked that through the Nahel Bond, further limiting the power of the surges through the mechanics of the Bond.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, we know that before the devastation of Ashyn, they manipulated Surges. Part of the definition of Sugebinding is the "binding" and we know that they didn't have Spren or the Spren Bond on Ashyn*. We also don't know if it was the same 10 surges, less or more than 10, or just a different set altogether.

Both systems might legitimately be called Surgebinding. But it's mostly semantics to say either they are the same system or possibly related systems (or separate branches of an over-all system). I, personally, consider them to be different, but related, systems of Investiture.

My personal opinion, based on current known information, is that it was a version of Microkinesis that caused the devastation. That may have been the only Surge they could manipulate, or just one of multiple surges to which they had access.

They had a Bondsmith on Ashyn and use boosted surge of transportation to get out of there - from WoBs. It's very likely they had access to all 10 surges.

I guess it depends if you consider Fused Surgebinding the same Surgebinding as Radiants use. They manipulate 9 surges without bond with spren. If they're not the same for you, Ashyn Surgebinding is also different system. But this is asking "how many magic systems does Roshar have?' all over again. Depending on your definition, there could be more than 30, or just 3.

[Treamayne]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They had a Bondsmith on Ashyn and use boosted surge of transportation to get out of there - from WoBs. It's very likely they had access to all 10 surges.

I guess it depends if you consider Fused Surgebinding the same Surgebinding as Radiants use. They manipulate 9 surges without bond with spren. If they're not the same for you, Ashyn Surgebinding is also different system. But this is asking "how many magic systems does Roshar have?' all over again. Depending on your definition, there could be more than 30, or just 3.

Do you mean these WoBs?

Spoiler

Quote

 

Ryan

Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges.

 

Quote

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

Quote

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

 

What I meant was the part where he says "Different Magic Systems, same principals"

Edited January 11, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAGF

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Do you mean these WoBs?

Yes, and few others, particularly this one

Spoiler

Questioner

At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time.

Brandon Sanderson

It can also speed it up.

Questioner

How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years?

Brandon Sanderson

There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring.

Questioner

Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it?

Brandon Sanderson

Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy.

So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do.

I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, and few others, particularly this one

So that WoB, plus the ones I posted, plus this (Sel Spoiler):

Spoiler

Questioner

Could you use AonDor to manipulate Connection? If so, would a real AonDor smarty be able to do something similar to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer to your question is: yes. Let me give some explanation.

Even when you are seeings some things happening in Elantris itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done.

In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff.

Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program. But you may need an injection of Investiture in certain ways.

Tells me that some magic abilities (Lightweaving - the power of Illusion; Elsecalling - the power of Translocation; Bondsmithing - the power of Connection) are abilities that are inherent to many magic systems, and can use the same terminology; but may differ in specifics.

Sel Spoiler

Spoiler

If Aon Tia can also be called Elsecalling - then Ashyn Natives definitely had some "surges" at least related to the Surges used in Rosharan Surgebinding - but not necessarily the same in specifics of how to access the investiture or how it manifests - even when the effects are the same.

 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Tells me that some magic abilities (Lightweaving - the power of Illusion; Elsecalling - the power of Translocation; Bondsmithing - the power of Connection) are abilities that are inherent to many magic systems, and can use the same terminology; but may differ in specifics.

Yes, that's how I see it. To add more, for me it's all about differences. I wouldn't call Selish magic Surgebinding (I can see why someone would call it that), but for me Fused Surgebinding is the same as Radiant Surgebinding - they are too similar, and operate on the same principles with little differences.

Ashyn surges might be as similar to Radiant surges, as Fused surges are- they were developed on the same system, and more importantly, Odium was involved on Ashyn and with humans. There are Voidsprens in human form, they might have come from Ashyn. Specifics might differ, but it is likely they were close to each other to justify calling them the same surges.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's how I see it. To add more, for me it's all about differences. I wouldn't call Selish magic Surgebinding (I can see why someone would call it that),

RIght, I would say that AonDor is able to manipulate surges - but I would not call AonDor a form of Surgebinding.

Quote

but for me Fused Surgebinding is the same as Radiant Surgebinding - they are too similar, and operate on the same principles with little differences.

They are similar - with differences being more about the culture and biology of the Surgebinders than differences in the Magic systems. Though, Voidbinding may be a tiger of a similar, related, or different stripe.

Quote

Ashyn surges might be as similar to Radiant surges, as Fused surges are- they were developed on the same system, and more importantly, Odium was involved on Ashyn and with humans. There are Voidsprens in human form, they might have come from Ashyn. Specifics might differ, but it is likely they were close to each other to justify calling them the same surges.

Well, since Stormlight is a thing of the Highstorms (which is a thing of Roshar); I, personally, am more comfortable referring to the pre-Emigration Magic of Ashyn as Surge Manipulation. The lack of Spren and Light, to me, indicates enough of a difference to warrent a variant term even if they are working with the same forces. At least until we learn more (which is unlikely to happen until we get to Taln's or Ash's book in the back 5).

[Psych0k1ll3r]

Thank you all again for the great responses. I have one last question here, what happened to Odium's magic system the people used on Ashyn? Did it get left behind and is no longer available due to the exodus, is it still being used and we just don't have enough info to identify that there is a difference, or is it actually what we've been seeing the entire time just with restrictions added by Honor which maybe changed it in a way? I feel like somewhere it says that the voidbringers came and brought their terrible powers with them. Was there a "magic system" on Roshar before the humans came? I know the dawnsingers existed but I've always viewed their feats as a combination of Kabsal's sand demonstration combined with the surge that the stonewards use to liquefy stone so not the same as what we have now? Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Psych0k1ll3r said:

Thank you all again for the great responses. I have one last question here, what happened to Odium's magic system the people used on Ashyn? Did it get left behind and is no longer available due to the exodus, is it still being used and we just don't have enough info to identify that there is a difference, or is it actually what we've been seeing the entire time just with restrictions added by Honor which maybe changed it in a way? I feel like somewhere it says that the voidbringers came and brought their terrible powers with them. Was there a "magic system" on Roshar before the humans came? I know the dawnsingers existed but I've always viewed their feats as a combination of Kabsal's sand demonstration combined with the surge that the stonewards use to liquefy stone so not the same as what we have now? Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated 

We don't know what had happened to magic on Ashyn, we know however that now it is some kind of illness based system from WoBs - how it works, we don't know. Some WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Singers most likely didn't have access to full Surgebinging powers, as It's sprens who mimic what Honor did with Honorblades gave first surges to humanity. Also one of Parshendi songs says 

Quote

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.
They gave their Surges to human heirs,
But not to those who know them most dear, before us.

Which implies, humans were the first to use full Surgebinding on Roshar. Singers had most likely access to some form of powers derived from their spren bond in gemheart, but how much power, or what could they did with it? We don't know. We only know what stone showed Venli in RoW. 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Psych0k1ll3r said:

Thank you all again for the great responses. I have one last question here, what happened to Odium's magic system the people used on Ashyn? Did it get left behind and is no longer available due to the exodus, is it still being used and we just don't have enough info to identify that there is a difference, or is it actually what we've been seeing the entire time just with restrictions added by Honor which maybe changed it in a way? I feel like somewhere it says that the voidbringers came and brought their terrible powers with them. Was there a "magic system" on Roshar before the humans came? I know the dawnsingers existed but I've always viewed their feats as a combination of Kabsal's sand demonstration combined with the surge that the stonewards use to liquefy stone so not the same as what we have now? Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Singers most likely didn't have access to full Surgebinging powers, as It's sprens who mimic what Honor did with Honorblades gave first surges to humanity. Also one of Parshendi songs says 

Which implies, humans were the first to use full Surgebinding on Roshar. Singers had most likely access to some form of powers derived from their spren bond in gemheart, but how much power, or what could they did with it? We don't know. We only know what stone showed Venli in RoW. 

Also, it is unlikely that Odium had any "magic system"; prior to the Fused and (possibly) Voidbinding. From the Coppermind:

Quote

Unlike most other Shards, which typically pick a single world and settle there, Odium has been traveling freely throughout the cosmere for a long time, deliberately refusing to Invest himself anywhere. 

So, when a Shard Invests in a world/system (which may include creating an Avatar in that location), by using their power to affect the world, their power creates the magic systems associated with that investiture (can be either deliberate or accidental). Since Odium was moving though systems while deliberately Not investing in them, he was also not creating any magic systems powered with his investiture - until Honor bound him to Roshar and he had no choice but to invest in Braize - which started the process of creating Odium's investiture systems there and on Roshar. 

Just because Cohesion is the only surge we have evidence of Singers using before the arrival of humans does not mean that was the only surge to which the Dawnsingers had access. 

From what we know of pre-Emigration Ashyn, the Magic was already present (possibly Honor/Cultivation, since they were already in teh Rosharan system; but also possibly remnants from pre-Shattering) - Odium was just messing with people like Ishar to tempt them into creating the destruction that eventually occured. Words of Brandon:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a metal like atium, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

If another Shard just came to visit, probably not.

Questioner

If they brought a spren or--

Brandon Sanderson

If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (edited)

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it.

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (edited)

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are.

 

Quote

Phantine

Are there any magic systems in the cosmere that aren't shard based?

Brandon Sanderson

This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

 

 

 

 

[Psych0k1ll3r]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and being patient with what I imagine are my extremely noobish questions. I appreciate both very much.