Windrunner V.S. Skybreaker

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

Who would win a 4th ideal windrunner or a 4th ideal skybreaker.

[Frustration he/him]

I'd say Windrunner because they have more squires.

Other than that, they're probably about equal, maybe still Windrunner, because they can manipulate the wind to move faster and more maneuverably.

[alder24]

So reverse lashing would be mostly useless here, and Adhesion as well. In Gravitation Windrunners are slightly better than Skybreakers, but Skybreakers have Division. And this can do damage. So if Skybreaker manage to touch Windrunner he can use Division on him and harm him that way, why Windrunner can't do much with touch. I have to give this one to Skybreaker.

Also it's 1v1 so no squires.

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So if Skybreaker manage to touch Windrunner he can use Division on him and harm him that way, why Windrunner can't do much with touch.

Division wouldn't work on Shardplate, so until you brealk the plate apart Division won't work.

And as Windrunners are more maneuverable they can break the plate apart first.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Also it's 1v1 so no squires.

Squires are part of the magic.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Squires are part of the magic.

Is the title "Windrunners vs Skybreaker" or "Windrunner vs Skybreaker"?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

Is the title "Windrunners vs Skybreaker" or "Windrunner vs Skybreaker"?

A Squire isn't a Radiant yet.

[Quantus he/him]

A lot will depend on the actual capabilities of Division, and maybe what sort of Resonances the Skybreakers get with it and Gravitation. For example, I strongly suspect the Lightning powers of Stormform are an application of the Division Surge.  If that's both true and a power that Radiants can replicate, that sort of ranged attack will give the Skybreakers an decent advantage and a better chance to hammer through the Windrunner's shardplate. 

[Frustration he/him]

19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

A lot will depend on the actual capabilities of Division, and maybe what sort of Resonances the Skybreakers get with it and Gravitation. For example, I strongly suspect the Lightning powers of Stormform are an application of the Division Surge.  If that's both true and a power that Radiants can replicate, that sort of ranged attack will give the Skybreakers an decent advantage and a better chance to hammer through the Windrunner's shardplate. 

Shardplate is basically immune to lightning

Spoiler

polaristar

So in Words of Radiance, at the end of the book, the singers in their Stormform can summon red lightning and it's revealed Shardplate can neutralize it. I was wondering, can Shardplate neutralize ALL electric discharges or just the "special" kind from Voidlight/voidspren powered from.

And if Shardplate can defend against lightning in general is their a maximum voltage/amperage before it loses effectiveness?

nagewaza

In my mind - the plate likely acts like a Faraday cage - essentially allowing the lightning to never have a path through the user's body (electricity moving through your body is how you get injured). This would assume that Shardplate is conductive.

If they jumped, then likely the lightning would again travel through the outside Shardplate metal and then to ground - again avoiding the human altogether..... That said, small aluminum airplanes have been known to have damage to wings from strikes. In the case of Shardplate, I doubt that thermal shock or melting temperature is an issue for the material.

Brandon Sanderson

This is along the lines of what I was thinking, though I'm not sure I have a maximum volt/amp answer handy.

polaristar

Was basically asking to find out if I can use Shardplate users against Electromaster characters on /r/whowouldwin

Brandon Sanderson

Then I give you an official, "Yes you can."

General Reddit 2018 (Sept. 10, 2018)

 

[SzethTheHonorblade]

I personally think that the Skybreaker would win, in like the third book it says that the Skybreakers were better flyers, and they are cooler anyways.

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, SzethTheHonorblade said:

I personally think that the Skybreaker would win, in like the third book it says that the Skybreakers were better flyers,

It never says that they are better fliers.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It never says that they are better fliers.

this sounds sort of familiar maybe a character boasting rather than an actual fact? idk but  it does sound familiar 

[Primeival Chaos he/him]

Windrunner: Access to Basic, Full, and Reverse Lashings

Basic Lashing- The most important of the Windrunner's powers in this fight, allows flight.

Full Lashing- Much less usable than Basic Lashings, not used much in arial fights as one with a Skybreaker would be. 

Reverse Lashings- Still less useful than Basic Lashings, could be used to block projectiles.

Increased squires- Probably not allowed to have squires in a 1v1 match

 

Skybreaker- Access to Division and Basic Lashings

Basic Lashing- same as Windrunner

Division- We haven't seen much of Division. We know Dustbringers can burn and engrave things with their powers, but Skybreakers may be different.

 

Overall, I think that a Skybreaker would win. Full and Reverse Lashings don't really offer much in a fight in the air. Dodging projectiles would be much more efficient than pulling them with a Reverse Lashing, and Full Lashings are very situational. We don't really know what Division does for Skybreakers, but that surge seems more offensive to me than Adhesion. Other than that, assuming equal skill, they are the same. Both have Sprenblades and Shardplate. Both can fly, and both are more combat focused orders, from what we've seen in the books. It comes down to what is more applicable in a 1v1- Division or Adhesion

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Primeival Chaos

[cometaryorbit]

I feel like the Skybreaker should win, because Division is I think supposed to be an extremely destructive combat Surge, but we've seen very little of it. I'm not sure it's touch limited, because Amaram ignites the air around his sword in OB, but it might not be usable against Shardplate. (Does living Plate fully seal, so if the Radiant is bathed in flame their lungs won't be burned?)

So I think it comes down to whether Division is usable as a ranged attack against someone in Plate. If so, the Skybreaker probably wins; if not, the Windrunner probably has the advantage, but it's likely close enough that individual skill will decide - both have flight, Blade, Plate, and Stormlight healing.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'd say Windrunner because they have more squires.

Other than that, they're probably about equal, maybe still Windrunner, because they can manipulate the wind to move faster and more maneuverably.

I kind of think squires may be a nuesence but not something the skybreaker should have to worry about.  If anything they are more sacks of gems for him to refuel from as he cuts them all down.  They have no shards and he is wearing plate.  Windrunners dont have much in terms of offensive surges either.  It would be like a few flies trying to annoy a bear as it is fighting another bear hoping to swing the odds.  

5 hours ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Windrunner: Access to Basic, Full, and Reverse Lashings

Basic Lashing- The most important of the Windrunner's powers in this fight, allows flight.

Full Lashing- Much less usable than Basic Lashings, not used much in arial fights as one with a Skybreaker would be. 

Reverse Lashings- Still less useful than Basic Lashings, could be used to block projectiles.

Increased squires- Probably not allowed to have squires in a 1v1 match

 

Skybreaker- Access to Division and Basic Lashings

Basic Lashing- same as Windrunner

Division- We haven't seen much of Division. We know Dustbringers can burn and engrave things with their powers, but Skybreakers may be different.

 

Overall, I think that a Skybreaker would win. Full and Reverse Lashings don't really offer much in a fight in the air. Dodging projectiles would be much more efficient than pulling them with a Reverse Lashing, and Full Lashings are very situational. We don't really know what Division does for Skybreakers, but that surge seems more offensive to me than Adhesion. Other than that, assuming equal skill, they are the same. Both have Sprenblades and Shardplate. Both can fly, and both are more combat focused orders, from what we've seen in the books. It comes down to what is more applicable in a 1v1- Division or Adhesion

 

It would be exciting if division can cause small explosions.  I would hate division to be limited to sith lighting... I think of dividing things as being quite a bit more than just lightning and fire.  Depending on what it can do your division could be more devestating than your shardblade. 

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I feel like the Skybreaker should win, because Division is I think supposed to be an extremely destructive combat Surge, but we've seen very little of it. I'm not sure it's touch limited, because Amaram ignites the air around his sword in OB, but it might not be usable against Shardplate. (Does living Plate fully seal, so if the Radiant is bathed in flame their lungs won't be burned?)

So I think it comes down to whether Division is usable as a ranged attack against someone in Plate. If so, the Skybreaker probably wins; if not, the Windrunner probably has the advantage, but it's likely close enough that individual skill will decide - both have flight, Blade, Plate, and Stormlight healing.

I wouldnt be shocked if division is usable at a range to some extent or another.  I think the biggest factor for the skybreaker is that they can use their shard for defense only in the form of a shield while landing touch hits with division... perhaps being able to target the windrunners stormlight reserves specifically.   Having a shield and a touch weapon swings the fight more than just about anything else.  Every touch you land on your opponents living plate while absorbing their hit on your sprenblade/shield/whatever is an advantage.  Advantages add up fast.  

 

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I kind of think squires may be a nuesence but not something the skybreaker should have to worry about.  If anything they are more sacks of gems for him to refuel from as he cuts them all down.  They have no shards and he is wearing plate.  Windrunners dont have much in terms of offensive surges either.  It would be like a few flies trying to annoy a bear as it is fighting another bear hoping to swing the odds.

Even if they serve as nothing more than distractions(which I believe they can) that means the Skybreaker has to fight the Windrunner, while also chasing away the squires, which puts them on the back foot.

And given how Kaladin was able to crack plate with lashings, the squires would be able to as well.

[Argenti he/him]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:35 PM, Frustration said:

And given how Kaladin was able to crack plate with lashings, the squires would be able to as well.

Well, we can't take Kaladin as a baseline. He has way to much going on.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

Well, we can't take Kaladin as a baseline. He has way to much going on.

We can, he hasn't done anything that we can definatively say that another windrunner couldn't do.

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

We can, he hasn't done anything that we can definatively say that another windrunner couldn't do.

That's the issue, we haven't seen enough from their POV's, all the Special Sauce and son of Tanavast

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Argenti said:

That's the issue, we haven't seen enough from their POV's, all the Special Sauce and son of Tanavast

Between Dawnshard, Teft and others yes we have.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm sure Division can do far more than we've seen so far, so this topic is highly speculative until SA 5 at least.

If we're looking at current Roshar, I'm leaning towards Skybreaker in general at present but mostly because of the current history of each Order. Skybreakers have combat exercises and millenia of practice and training methods. Even just that some of them have worked with as experienced a warrior as Nale and have recently been trained systematically to find and take down Surgebinders (granted generally budding Radiants). They will likely know more about general Surgebinding then nearly anyone as well as proper techniques to counter them.

Kaladin is a good trainer, but he doesn't have that history. That said, he recruited heavily from the Alethi war camps so that combat experience among the Windrunners will help in general compared to an Order that have primarily been lawkeepers.

If we're permitting Windrunner squires, they definitely won't have any Plate to protect them from Division. That said, Skybreaker squires don't have access to Division until Oath 3.

If we're talking SA right now, then hands down Windrunner, 'cuz that only leaves Kaladin and eliminates Nale as a candidate from the Skybreakers. Not necessarily in all his abilities, but Kaladin is an outlier in terms of combat skill in so many ways it's ridiculous, even if he barely has any squires anymore.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Duxredux
added thought

[The Stick]

The squire debate is easy to settle. If the get close and try to lash the Skybreaker, they have to touch him. They then disappear screaming into a cloud of flames. If they chase him with weapons, they would be conventional, the Skybreaker could just turn them to dust with division. If the Skybreaker even touches squires, they die, so they play no large part in the fight. I personally believe Skybreakers have more chances of winning. One reason that nobody has mentioned yet is the restrictions of their oaths. It is presumed that the Windrunner must fight honorably without dirty tricks while Skybreakers can do pretty much whatever they want.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

The squire debate is easy to settle. If the get close and try to lash the Skybreaker, they have to touch him. They then disappear screaming into a cloud of flames. If they chase him with weapons, they would be conventional, the Skybreaker could just turn them to dust with division. If the Skybreaker even touches squires, they die, so they play no large part in the fight. I personally believe Skybreakers have more chances of winning. One reason that nobody has mentioned yet is the restrictions of their oaths. It is presumed that the Windrunner must fight honorably without dirty tricks while Skybreakers can do pretty much whatever they want.

Idk about them having to fight honorably I think if the cause is honorable then depending on the spren I don't think it would matter to much

[Frustration he/him]

20 hours ago, The Stick said:

The squire debate is easy to settle. If the get close and try to lash the Skybreaker, they have to touch him.

Why on earth would they try to lash the skybreaker?

They can't even do that. They would however use aluminum weapons, or lash rocks at them.

20 hours ago, The Stick said:

One reason that nobody has mentioned yet is the restrictions of their oaths. It is presumed that the Windrunner must fight honorably without dirty tricks while Skybreakers can do pretty much whatever they want.

Nothing in Windrunner oaths forces them to fight honorably.

[The Stick]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why on earth would they try to lash the skybreaker?

They can't even do that. They would however use aluminum weapons, or lash rocks at them.

Nothing in Windrunner oaths forces them to fight honorably.

They would try to lash him into a spiked rock or something of the sort.

The rocks would be Divided, I do not know about aluminum weapons, but Aluminum is not widespread on Roshar yet so I doubt they have them.

I think the oaths are based on spren interpretation, so it depends on the spren's opinion. However, we know the way the Radiant and spren view it can both influence the nature of oaths.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, The Stick said:

They would try to lash him into a spiked rock or something of the sort.

Why? That not only takes more light than lashing the rocks, it's more dangerous, and it wouldn't work as the Skybreaker's investiture would resist theirs.

1 minute ago, The Stick said:

The rocks would be Divided,

That still takes stormlight, so it's progress.

1 minute ago, The Stick said:

I do not know about aluminum weapons, but Aluminum is not widespread on Roshar yet so I doubt they have them.

Aluminum is immune to division.

They had enough aluminum to cover the entirety of the interior of urithiru in it in the past. And Shallan a rural noble just had a necklace made out of it, it is very widespread, just not used all that often.