Why the Ghostbloods want Stormlight so badly

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Proletariat said:

And these Skybreakers are not Hoid, and Design is not their highspren. If we accept the hint that they are Skybreakers, then the simplest presumption is that they've substituted their dead, missing, left behind, yet to be bonded or whatever spren with hemalurgic spikes to give them allomantic abilities.

I'm aware that you have a very strong opinion that Rosharan innovation means that getting spren off world on a population wide scale is imminent, but there is no suggestion in-text or by Brandon that this has seriously happened as of the Lost Metal. Insisting otherwise will make this a very circular discussion.

Them getting spren off world isn't what I'm saying.

I'm saying that with that WoB those individuals cannot be Skybreakers.

[lacrossedeamon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Them getting spren off world isn't what I'm saying.

I'm saying that with that WoB those individuals cannot be Skybreakers.

I think they weren't actually Skybreakers or related to them in any way Brandon would have just said so. The fact that he talked around the topic implies that there is something more going on there.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Proletariat said:

And these Skybreakers are not Hoid, and Design is not their highspren. If we accept the hint that they are Skybreakers, then the simplest presumption is that they've substituted their dead, missing, left behind, yet to be bonded or whatever spren with hemalurgic spikes to give them allomantic abilities.

Who said they are Radiants? Maybe they are Voidbinders bonded with enlightened sprens?

[Leuthie]

Someone asked if they were Skybreakers. Brandon proceeded to describe why they can't be Skybreakers. You conclude that they're Skybreakers? Make it make sense.

[lacrossedeamon]

53 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Someone asked if they were Skybreakers. Brandon proceeded to describe why they can't be Skybreakers. You conclude that they're Skybreakers? Make it make sense.

Brandon proceeded to describe why it would be weird for them to be Skybreakers while specifically avoiding saying “they’re not Skybreakers”. If he didn’t want us theorizing along these lines he should have just shut the train of thought down rather than talk around the issue.

[Frustration he/him]

10 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Brandon proceeded to describe why it would be weird for them to be Skybreakers while specifically avoiding saying “they’re not Skybreakers”. If he didn’t want us theorizing along these lines he should have just shut the train of thought down rather than talk around the issue.

If they can't take spren off world they can't be skybreakers, so he did shut the train of thought down.

[lacrossedeamon]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

If they can't take spren off world they can't be skybreakers, so he did shut the train of thought down.

Obviously he didn't otherwise wouldn't be having this conversation but maybe I'm giving too much credit to an author's specific phrasing than I should be.

[therunner he/him]

13 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Someone asked if they were Skybreakers. Brandon proceeded to describe why they can't be Skybreakers. You conclude that they're Skybreakers? Make it make sense.

Ok, will try to do it

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

If they can't take spren off world they can't be skybreakers, so he did shut the train of thought down.

Technically he actually did not say they cannot take spren off-world.

All he said is that at this point in continuity/time

•  Skybreaker could not easily get off Roshar 
  • So it is possible
• He believes that Hoid is the only Radiant who managed to get off Roshar and maintain powers
  • Brandon only believes this (and asks us not to hold him too much to this statement).
  • Additionally, this is specifically about Radiants, not Surgebinders in general or e.g. Voidbinders
• He thinks that Hoid is the first to get out of system.
  • If Hoid is the first, there is a second (a weak one, I know )

Brandon only says he believes Hoid is the only Radiant to get off-world an maintain powers. This may be only my perception, but Brandon rarely uses such language in WoBs. He also qualifies it by asking us to not hold him to this too much.
In my mind this leaves room for the following two interpretation:

• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but in the meantime someone managed to replicate the feat. That someone managed to get a few Skybreakers off-world.
• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but someone tried to replicate it, but succeeded in only getting some with either Surgebinding or Voindbinging out of system, but not Radiant. This could be e.g.
  •  Squires who somehow have their Connection to Radiant enhanced so they maintain some powers even at such a distance.
  •  Human equivalent of Fused
  •  Voidbinders
  •  non-Radiant Surgebinders (as Surgebinding pre-dates existence of Knights Radiant)

The WoB is below:

Spoiler

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by therunner

[lacrossedeamon]

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

Brandon only says he believes Hoid is the only Radiant to get off-world an maintain powers. This may be only my perception, but Brandon rarely uses such language in WoBs. He also qualifies it by asking us to not hold him to this too much.
In my mind this leaves room for the following two interpretation:

• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but in the meantime someone managed to replicate the feat. That someone managed to get a few Skybreakers off-world.
• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but someone tried to replicate it, but succeeded in only getting some with either Surgebinding or Voindbinging out of system, but not Radiant. This could be e.g.
  •  Squires who somehow have their Connection to Radiant enhanced so they maintain some powers even at such a distance.
  •  Human equivalent of Fused
  •  Voidbinders
  •  non-Radiant Surgebinders (as Surgebinding pre-dates existence of Knights Radiant)

The WoB is below:

  Reveal hidden contents

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Additionally it might not work this way but possibly they got off world without maintaining their powers but then hacked it to bypass that via something like unfiltered Dor or Nicrosil Medallions.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

If they can't take spren off world they can't be skybreakers, so he did shut the train of thought down.

This is my interpretation of the WoB too. 

There is enough left open though to look for other theories. 
Were they skybreakers that lost their spren and found some other source like Dor or Medallions, meaning they would no longer be Radiants.
When did they leave Roshar? recently or years ago, maybe after the Recreance,
Maybe they followed a different final Oath and did not follow Nale, their Spren may have been killed or maybe agreed with the others that chose to end their bonds.  We know that Spren before the false desolations did not become deadeyes, they could have left them safely in Shadesmar and gone off world.
There is not enough information to determine anything other than they can fly, and appear to follow the same commitment to laws that is set forth by High Spren. 

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Ok, will try to do it

Technically he actually did not say they cannot take spren off-world.

All he said is that at this point in continuity/time

•  Skybreaker could not easily get off Roshar 
  • So it is possible
• He believes that Hoid is the only Radiant who managed to get off Roshar and maintain powers
  • Brandon only believes this (and asks us not to hold him too much to this statement).
  • Additionally, this is specifically about Radiants, not Surgebinders in general or e.g. Voidbinders
• He thinks that Hoid is the first to get out of system.
  • If Hoid is the first, there is a second (a weak one, I know )

Brandon only says he believes Hoid is the only Radiant to get off-world an maintain powers. This may be only my perception, but Brandon rarely uses such language in WoBs. He also qualifies it by asking us to not hold him to this too much.
In my mind this leaves room for the following two interpretation:

• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but in the meantime someone managed to replicate the feat. That someone managed to get a few Skybreakers off-world.
• Hoid was first to get out of system (as he was off-world by AoL about 7 years prior to TLM), but someone tried to replicate it, but succeeded in only getting some with either Surgebinding or Voindbinging out of system, but not Radiant. This could be e.g.
  •  Squires who somehow have their Connection to Radiant enhanced so they maintain some powers even at such a distance.
  •  Human equivalent of Fused
  •  Voidbinders
  •  non-Radiant Surgebinders (as Surgebinding pre-dates existence of Knights Radiant)

The WoB is below:

  Reveal hidden contents

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

When he says he believes that Hoid is the only one, what he means is that right now Hoid is the only person he has decided has done it, but he is leaving the door open for him to add others.

5 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Additionally it might not work this way but possibly they got off world without maintaining their powers but then hacked it to bypass that via something like unfiltered Dor or Nicrosil Medallions.

We have two options

Option 1 requires no assumptions, no one has gotten off world and maintained powers other than Hoid, therefore there cannot be Skybreakers.

Option 2 requires two assumptions, one is that these are Skybreakers, and the second is that somehow they managed to leave by suppressing their powers.

 

In these cases I believe it is best to go with the option that requires the least amount of assumptions.

[lacrossedeamon]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

We have two options

Option 1 requires no assumptions, no one has gotten off world and maintained powers other than Hoid, therefore there cannot be Skybreakers.

Option 2 requires two assumptions, one is that these are Skybreakers, and the second is that somehow they managed to leave by suppressing their powers.

 

In these cases I believe it is best to go with the option that requires the least amount of assumptions.

Since he never directly says the group of Ghostblood members are not Skybreakers or that they are just Coinshots both of these options actually rely on assumptions. Option 2 does have more assumptions though so you can argue Ockham's Razor (which has it's own flaws) but does Ockham's Razor beat Chekov's Gun?

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

does Ockham's Razor beat Chekov's Gun?

Not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud... and I think it's a great point.

Occam's Razor is a useful tool in science and philosophy, but given that literature is neither, Chekhov's Gun may in fact be a more apt principle to invoke in this case.  While I tend to lean in favor of @Frustration's interpretation, Brandon clearly had some reason for including the "is this legal?" line.

[lacrossedeamon]

13 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud... and I think it's a great point.

Thanks I kinda got lucky on this. I know Ockham's Razor has it's uses but has it's own fallacy ptifalls. I was looking up if there is a formal or informal logical fallacy tied to applying the razor erroneously. I didn't quite find one but came across anti-razors such as Hickum's Dictum and the like. Chekhov's Gun was mentioned tangentially and I thought it the perfect rebuttal. Because as you noted Brandon intentionally has them bring up the legality and he is a big fan of using Chekhov's Gun as a method of foreshadowing as opposed to being a proponent of red herrings (why couldn't this have been called Cobbett's Herring after it's trope codifier for thematic reasons?).

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Since he never directly says the group of Ghostblood members are not Skybreakers or that they are just Coinshots both of these options actually rely on assumptions. Option 2 does have more assumptions though so you can argue Ockham's Razor (which has it's own flaws) but does Ockham's Razor beat Chekov's Gun?

What assumption is made?

TLM says that they are allomancers.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

What assumption is made?

TLM says that they are allomancers.

Without the source material directly in front of me all I can say is the assumption that Steris's perspective isn't unreliable.

[AquaRegia he/him]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

TLM says that they are allomancers.

Au contraire, mon frere.

I think what @lacrossedeamon is trying to say is that it's not the AUTHOR telling us they are Allomancers... it's STERIS.  She's never seen any use of non-Scadrian magic; it would be unreasonable to expect her to identify it as such.  She interprets what she sees through her experience, and she could certainly be wrong.

If we've learned anything about Brandon, it's that he LOVES an unreliable narrator.

I also don't like the idea of Skybreakers using Surgebinding on Scadrial at this point, and I have not yet heard an explanation for it that I can buy.  It doesn't work with what we know so far.  But given that this is fantasy fiction, I'm willing to consider the possibility that Brandon has something in mind to make it work.  There's always another secret!

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Au contraire, mon frere.

I think what @lacrossedeamon is trying to say is that it's not the AUTHOR telling us they are Allomancers... it's STERIS.  She's never seen any use of non-Scadrian magic; it would be unreasonable to expect her to identify it as such.  She interprets what she sees through her experience, and she could certainly be wrong.

If we've learned anything about Brandon, it's that he LOVES an unreliable narrator.

I also don't like the idea of Skybreakers using Surgebinding on Scadrial at this point, and I have not yet heard an explanation for it that I can buy.  It doesn't work with what we know so far.  But given that this is fantasy fiction, I'm willing to consider the possibility that Brandon has something in mind to make it work.  There's always another secret!

On a purely narrator note, Skybreakers and Coinshot do not fly the same way, and Steris can find Kandra by noticing such slight differences. She would have mentioned the oddity of there was one.

[SingleSoul he/him]

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

On a purely narrator note, Skybreakers and Coinshot do not fly the same way, and Steris can find Kandra by noticing such slight differences. She would have mentioned the oddity of there was one.

I don't think it would be much trouble for a skybreaker to mimic the flying path of a coinshot. 

Another point is that I don't think it is ever mentioned how they managed to scuttle the ships. It's said that sinking the ships is more complicated that Steris thinks. It's supposed to take hours. Then these guys fly out the problem is apparently solved in no time. Also there is no mention of dropping a coin to push against. 

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, SingleSoul said:

I don't think it would be much trouble for a skybreaker to mimic the flying path of a coinshot. 

Skybreakers fly in straight lines, not arcs. When Kaladin does a loop he has to constantly reapply lashings in order to do so. Not to mention that they don't glow, and that without their spren they wouldn't have powers.

7 minutes ago, SingleSoul said:

Another point is that I don't think it is ever mentioned how they managed to scuttle the ships. It's said that sinking the ships is more complicated that Steris thinks. It's supposed to take hours. Then these guys fly out the problem is apparently solved in no time. 

They are authorized to use their Dor supplies, a single push and they could tear a massive hole in the bottom of the ship.

8 minutes ago, SingleSoul said:

Also there is no mention of dropping a coin to push against. 

Manhole covers, buildings, cars, there's a lot of metal.

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Skybreakers fly in straight lines, not arcs. When Kaladin does a loop he has to constantly reapply lashings in order to do so. Not to mention that they don't glow, and that without their spren they wouldn't have powers.

You did just explain one possible method how they could mimic an arc. Surgebinders might not glow if they are powering their surges via non stormlight means; we just don't know yet.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

You did just explain one possible method how they could mimic an arc.

That was pushing Kaladin's abilities, and he almost passed out doing it.

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Surgebinders might not glow if they are powering their surges via non stormlight means; we just don't know yet.

They won't have powers if they don't have spren. In fact the WoB itself says that Hoid is the only one to maintain powers.

Additionally the only fuel source they would have is the Dor, which does glow.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That was pushing Kaladin's abilities, and he almost passed out doing it.

Speculating here but mimicking a slight arc for a few seconds probably does not cause as much strain. The fact that it does cause strain also implies that lashing does not redirect any prior moment which could be another way to mimic an arc.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They won't have powers if they don't have spren. In fact the WoB itself says that Hoid is the only one to maintain powers.

I wouldn't call having to use work around investiture hacks to possibly temporarily use abilities again "maintained" so this isn't a contradiction for me.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Additionally the only fuel source they would have is the Dor, which does glow.

Unsealed nicrosil medallions

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

Unsealed nicrosil medallions

Which would make them feruchemists, or allomancers.

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Speculating here but mimicking a slight arc for a few seconds probably does not cause as much strain. The fact that it does cause strain also implies that lashing does not redirect any prior moment which could be another way to mimic an arc.

The only reason it happens is because readers expect it to.

Which is dumb, but that's what he's going with

Spoiler

shinarit?

There is that scene where Kaladin takes a sharp turn at high speeds and he almost blacks out. That is normal for jet pilots, since they experience high G forces when their airplane tries to accelerate them by their backs and bottoms.

But Lashing doesn't work that way, it generates fake gravity. Accelerating your whole body shouldn't cause you anything, you can't even feel it.

Is this something that is an admitted physics hiccup or I misunderstood this kind of Investiture usage?

Brandon Sanderson

This one is actually in the process of flux, as I do more research on the effects of acceleration (including interviews with fighter pilots, which has been fun.) Basically, I realized I needed to beef up my understanding of all this, and then make some decisions on exactly how this all works, because I've been relying on instinct too much in some of these sequences.

So...that's a RAFO, I'm afraid. More because I'm still tweaking some of the little details of how I want this all to work. (In ways that become increasingly relevant as I look forward toward things like Windrunners in space.)

There are a ton of details to consider, even if I eventually hand-wave some of it with the magic. (For example, the heart pumping blood in a high-g environment. How does that interact, if at all, with stormlight? And the direct oxygenation of the brain implied by not needing to breathe while holding stormlight...)

We have several very large math-ish projects going on behind the scenes.

Phoenixdown

I think it depends on if lashing independently impacts each atom within your body simultaneously, or if it is only a subset.

Brandon Sanderson

There's one important fact you're not considering, but which is vital: reader expectation.

One of the questions I have to ask myself is this: What will the reader expect to happen? How will they expect to feel? Granted, none of us have ever flown like this before--but we generally imagine similar things, similar feelings.

As a writer, one thing I need to balance is when I go against reader expectations and when I don't. Going against the expectations can be interesting, but often takes a large burden of words and explanation to keep reminding them something is not how they'd imagine it to be.

For example, it took a relatively large amount of reader attention (and explanation) to keep reminding people in Mistborn that plants weren't green and the sky wasn't blue. In many ways, making something new (like a chull) is easier on readers than making something familiar into something strange (like the horses in Dragonsteel, which were smaller than Earth horses--and kept causing confusion problems in my alpha readers.)

As annoying as this example can me, this is why Lucas had sound, fire, gravity, etc in space. Starships banking in formation felt real to the viewers, even if it didn't make sense in context. I hope to not go that far, but these questions are something in my mind.

I try to be careful not to remove the sensations of magic, in order to keep the movements of characters grounded. Windrunning has left me having to decide how far I want to go with things like this, in order to preserve the visceral feelings for the reader.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e10357

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I wouldn't call having to use work around investiture hacks to possibly temporarily use abilities again "maintained" so this isn't a contradiction for me.

The powers would still be there, even if you fueled them differently. Using the Dor or Stormlight is irrelevant, the power exists independently of that.

[lacrossedeamon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Which would make them feruchemists, or allomancers.

That would be unkeyed metalminds, not unsealed.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only reason it happens is because readers expect it to.

Which is dumb, but that's what he's going with

  Reveal hidden contents

shinarit?

There is that scene where Kaladin takes a sharp turn at high speeds and he almost blacks out. That is normal for jet pilots, since they experience high G forces when their airplane tries to accelerate them by their backs and bottoms.

But Lashing doesn't work that way, it generates fake gravity. Accelerating your whole body shouldn't cause you anything, you can't even feel it.

Is this something that is an admitted physics hiccup or I misunderstood this kind of Investiture usage?

Brandon Sanderson

This one is actually in the process of flux, as I do more research on the effects of acceleration (including interviews with fighter pilots, which has been fun.) Basically, I realized I needed to beef up my understanding of all this, and then make some decisions on exactly how this all works, because I've been relying on instinct too much in some of these sequences.

So...that's a RAFO, I'm afraid. More because I'm still tweaking some of the little details of how I want this all to work. (In ways that become increasingly relevant as I look forward toward things like Windrunners in space.)

There are a ton of details to consider, even if I eventually hand-wave some of it with the magic. (For example, the heart pumping blood in a high-g environment. How does that interact, if at all, with stormlight? And the direct oxygenation of the brain implied by not needing to breathe while holding stormlight...)

We have several very large math-ish projects going on behind the scenes.

Phoenixdown

I think it depends on if lashing independently impacts each atom within your body simultaneously, or if it is only a subset.

Brandon Sanderson

There's one important fact you're not considering, but which is vital: reader expectation.

One of the questions I have to ask myself is this: What will the reader expect to happen? How will they expect to feel? Granted, none of us have ever flown like this before--but we generally imagine similar things, similar feelings.

As a writer, one thing I need to balance is when I go against reader expectations and when I don't. Going against the expectations can be interesting, but often takes a large burden of words and explanation to keep reminding them something is not how they'd imagine it to be.

For example, it took a relatively large amount of reader attention (and explanation) to keep reminding people in Mistborn that plants weren't green and the sky wasn't blue. In many ways, making something new (like a chull) is easier on readers than making something familiar into something strange (like the horses in Dragonsteel, which were smaller than Earth horses--and kept causing confusion problems in my alpha readers.)

As annoying as this example can me, this is why Lucas had sound, fire, gravity, etc in space. Starships banking in formation felt real to the viewers, even if it didn't make sense in context. I hope to not go that far, but these questions are something in my mind.

I try to be careful not to remove the sensations of magic, in order to keep the movements of characters grounded. Windrunning has left me having to decide how far I want to go with things like this, in order to preserve the visceral feelings for the reader.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e10357

 

 

 

 

 

Huh that is weird.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The powers would still be there, even if you fueled them differently. Using the Dor or Stormlight is irrelevant, the power exists independently of that.

Here we disagree on semantics making this train of inquiry deadlocked.