Theory: Shadesmar Map is Complete

[discipleofhoid he/him]

I love this interpretation of the theory! I really do believe that the "coincidence" of three realm types and three shadesmar types isn't a coincidence at all and I think this idea fits very well...

As to why it looks like an inversion of Roshar...? I think since the map and information are coming from a book about Roshar there is no issue with that. It may well look very similar to any given world when viewed from the point of view of those people accessing Shadesmar.

One of my thoughts that I had on this, and in looking at the actual map, I'm not sure how well it pans out, but what if in addition to the inversion of land/sea relative to Roshar, there is also an inversion of the characteristics of a world?

We know that Roshar is a broken land, at least the Shattered Plains. What if in Shadesmar, that corresponds to the Expanse of the Broken Sky (inverted)?

Similarly, if the Expanse of the Densities is a "world we know" and with inversion Scadrial typically associated with Vapors could be this one?

Alternately, my other thought is that if these do break out into three categories as they correspond Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual, I would say that corresponds to the magics of the world and what is used to "power" it. So:

• Expanse of the Densities would be Scadrial because of the metals that are used for all the different magic systems
  
• Sea of Souls would related to Breaths used to power magic on Nalthis
  
• Nexus of Truth as a Cognitive world seems to fit Roshar given the "truth" needed to power Soulcasting, as the spren says, "tell us something true"
  
• Sea of Lost Lights: if I remember correctly, the magic of the world that Liar of Partinel is set on is a light based magic...
  
• I'm torn between Nexus of Imagination and Nexus of Transition for Sel because you can do anything you can imagine/write with AonDor, but the magic of Skai/Dominion seems to transform its practitioners as much as Elantrians need to be transformed before they can use AonDor
  

Thoughts?

What do we do with Brandon saying that you shouldn't travel to Shadesmar on Sel? Does that fit into the map at all?

I still don't think that the Roshar shape is a coincidence(see my explanation above.) However my theory for Sel would be that the sun Shallan sees in the distance is the Dor and it is located in the Shadesmar location corresponding to Sel. I also wonder is this is what the broken sky could refer to.

[pmj812]

Juicy tidbit:

Part 4 of "Hero of Ages" is called "The Broken Skies."

Coincidence?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Juicy tidbit:

Part 4 of "Hero of Ages" is called "The Broken Skies."

Coincidence?

hehe, probably but who knows with Brandon

[fiveAM he/him]

The similarities of Roshar to the map of Shadesmar makes me think that the map is specific to Roshar. Also, I have no idea what the differences between the Expanses, Nexuses and Seas would be, or even what they are, although Nexus of Truth is one of them, and considering Shallan... Anyways, considering number of worlds, etc. what if not all the worlds are connected directly in Shadesmar, or maybe it's easier to move in certain ways? Kind of like transition areas or what not to shift to another world? It seems likely that specific areas have significance in regards to the different worlds, or else someone who could step into Shadesmar could pop back out in another world without having to move a step inside Shadesmar. So here's an idea. If each world's Shadesmar is shaped differently, then proximity of these "transition areas" or i guess could call them portals would change. So what if it's easier, or only possible to get from one world to the next by going to a different world's Shadesmar first? So say Scadrial to Sel on Scadrial's Shadesmar is like 10 miles, but stopping by Roshar makes it easier because Scadrial to Roshar is 2 miles and Roshar to to Sel is 4 miles (or something like that).

I know totally wild theory, but, 'what if?'

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

The similarities of Roshar to the map of Shadesmar makes me think that the map is specific to Roshar. Also, I have no idea what the differences between the Expanses, Nexuses and Seas would be, or even what they are, although Nexus of Truth is one of them, and considering Shallan... Anyways, considering number of worlds, etc. what if not all the worlds are connected directly in Shadesmar, or maybe it's easier to move in certain ways? Kind of like transition areas or what not to shift to another world? It seems likely that specific areas have significance in regards to the different worlds, or else someone who could step into Shadesmar could pop back out in another world without having to move a step inside Shadesmar. So here's an idea. If each world's Shadesmar is shaped differently, then proximity of these "transition areas" or i guess could call them portals would change. So what if it's easier, or only possible to get from one world to the next by going to a different world's Shadesmar first? So say Scadrial to Sel on Scadrial's Shadesmar is like 10 miles, but stopping by Roshar makes it easier because Scadrial to Roshar is 2 miles and Roshar to to Sel is 4 miles (or something like that).

I know totally wild theory, but, 'what if?'

Well we have this from the Brandonothology:

And there is a single plane of existence--called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm--which connects them all.

My assumption on reading that is that they are all connected directly via Shadesmar, but I suppose they don't have to be direct connections.

Then we'd have different world hoppers talking about how their route is the best... "I can make the Sel run in 6 parsecs" For Hoid it might not be incorrect to also say, "I'm not talking a big bulk-hopper. I'm fast enough for you old man, I can do .5 past light speed" either...

We also have the quote regarding Sel

Do not go to Shadesmar on this world (really, I'm not kidding)

So maybe Sel is the Expanse of the Broken Sky? I don't think so but it depends on why you shouldn't go to Shadesmar on Sel. I'm assuming it has something to do with the Shattering of Aona and Skai, but it could be anything as to why the Cognitive realm in the area of Sel is dangerous. Maybe if it is related to the shattering of the shards, it has to do with the fact that the Shard's consciousnesses have been shattered and the Shard's are what hold each realm together in their vicinity? So with no consciousness to the Shard's power it leaves the Cognitive realm in that area in disarray. Just a thought.

[Shard Obsessed]

The real question about Sel is - if you can't (or shouldn't) go to Shadesmar on Sel, how are Galladon and the other Elantrian world-hoppers traveling? Did they use the Aon for transportation? If so, and given how we all assume their power is lessened away from Sel - how do they intend to get back?

[Eri she/her]

If so, and given how we all assume their power is lessened away from Sel - how do they intend to get back?

Maybe this is why they're working for the-person-Hoid-is-writing-to - they need his/her help?

[discipleofhoid he/him]

Maybe this is why they're working for the-person-Hoid-is-writing-to - they need his/her help?

Or it could be that in elantris time you wouldn't want to but they fixed it pre-WoK times

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

The real question about Sel is - if you can't (or shouldn't) go to Shadesmar on Sel, how are Galladon and the other Elantrian world-hoppers traveling? Did they use the Aon for transportation? If so, and given how we all assume their power is lessened away from Sel - how do they intend to get back?

Heh, I asked this same question in the "Seventeenth Shard are Separate" theory thread a few minutes ago...

Remember Hoid managed to go there AND leave and I suspect that he was using the Shadesmar to travel, but he might just be that much better at manuplulating it than others given how long he's been doing it.

Also remember that WoK is 100's, possibly close to 1000 years after the events in Elantris, so Galladon may have had much practice as well. (Elantris + unknown time span = Mistborn 1-3 +341 yrs = Alloy of Law/Warbreaker + "hundreds of years" = Way of Kings)

[Shard Obsessed]

Ah hah! I called it! So Brandon confirmed at a signing that there are ten core shardworlds in the cosmere! I'm convinced now that I'm right about the map of Shadesmar reflecting the cosmere - the expanses are four worlds, the seas are three and the nexus are the last three.

[Djerf he/him]

Well it makes sense to me. I think that the difference (Sea, Nexus, Expanse) is the form of the focus on that world. On Scadrial we have the molecular pattern of metals being the focus which is physical.

OTF: My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

BS: Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

(Bolded by me)

I would think Sel’s focus is physical ( the SHAPE of the aon decides)

Nalthis I think is cognitive mostly due to this Thread.

Roshar’s focus is still anyones guess but it could be spiritual

So I think:

Expanse of density = Scadrial

Nexus of imagination = Nalthis

Since we miss one Expanse I’m hoping it fits with Sel.

As to why the map looks like Roshar.

It’s a map of Roshar in shadesmar with portals or whatever leading to the other worlds, if you do a map of a house you don’t also show the neighbors houses outside the doors, you shows the doors and might write where they lead.

[Windrunner he/him]

As to why the map looks like Roshar.

It’s a map of Roshar in shadesmar with portals or whatever leading to the other worlds, if you do a map of a house you don’t also show the neighbors houses outside the doors, you shows the doors and might write where they lead.

But there's a problem here. There are ten nexuses, seas, and expanses. If you are seeing the Roshar Shadesmar, there should be only 9 portals to other Shardworlds, not ten, because if you are on Roshar's Shadesmar you don't need a portal to Roshar's Shadesmar. So we end up with an extra portal.

[Shard Obsessed]

But there's a problem here. There are ten nexuses, seas, and expanses. If you are seeing the Roshar Shadesmar, there should be only 9 portals to other Shardworlds, not ten, because if you are on Roshar's Shadesmar you don't need a portal to Roshar's Shadesmar. So we end up with an extra portal.

Yeah, that's not how maps work. Just because you're in a certain place already doesn't mean the representation of that place on the map ceases to exist. The map looks like Roshar because of in-world artistic representation 'Roshar is the center of the universe' kinda thing. But just like a map of the British Empire at its height.....just because the map was based in Britain, doesn't mean that it would just show America, India, etc and not have a representation of Britain itself.

It's a pseudo-geographical representation of the Cognitive Realm, not a Super Mario Bros. game. I don't know that portals are the right way to describe how one gets from one world to another using Shadesmar. To be honest, 'portals' doesn't really sound like Brandon's style.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Shard Obsessed

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I think that any map of Shadesmar is flawed at the core. This is not the physical realm, it doesn't have a definite shape. To some degree, a shape can be imposed on it by people who are visiting/thinking about it, but that shape would be somewhere between an illusion of shape and reality. Shadesmar isn't the realm of thought, it is thought.

The shape of Roshar would likely be imposed upon Shadesmar by any visitors from Roshar accidentally. Someone visiting from another world would see Shadesmar shaped like their world. If you are adept at manipulating Shadesmar, like Hoid is, you could force it to assume any shape you wished.

The names of the different areas are the physical interpretations of the overall manifestation of thoughts from each world.

[Windrunner he/him]

Yeah, that's not how maps work. Just because you're in a certain place already doesn't mean the representation of that place on the map ceases to exist. The map looks like Roshar because of in-world artistic representation 'Roshar is the center of the universe' kinda thing. But just like a map of the British Empire at its height.....just because the map was based in Britain, doesn't mean that it would just show America, India, etc and not have a representation of Britain itself.

I am aware of how maps work. I don't think you and I see eye to eye on why the Shadesmar is shaped like Roshar in the map. You claim that it doesn't really look like Roshar because it is an artists interpretation, which is a good theory. However that does not make it fact. We know it is an in-world artifact, and subject to bias, but that does not make it certain that that part of Shadesmar is not an inverted Roshar. Just because it is an interpretation doesn't make it completely untrue. After all there was an artists interpretation of the Alethi War Camps in the book. Sure it wasn't perfect but that doesn't invalidate everything about it. The camps are round, there are ten, and they are even ordered correctly. So you can't just assume that the only accurate part of the Shadesmar map is the names of the Nexuses, Seas, and Expanses. In fact from what we've seen so far of Shadesmar, the map can't be proven inaccurate. Shallan is standing on land in Kharbranth, and when she arrives in Shadesmar she is in a Sea of Cognitive aspects, which is what you would expect from a part of Shadesmar that is shaped like an inverted Roshar.

It's a pseudo-geographical representation of the Cognitive Realm, not a Super Mario Bros. game. I don't know that portals are the right way to describe how one gets from one world to another using Shadesmar. To be honest, 'portals' doesn't really sound like Brandon's style.

I thought this is what you were saying from your earlier post, but now I don't understand what you think they are. If not a portal to a part of Shadesmar that is shaped like its corresponding world then what is it? I also don't think that it makes sense that only the ten planets with Shards would be represented. Brandon says there are other inhabited planets in the cosmere with no Shards but the people there would still have cognitive aspects, am I right? If you can't find those aspects in the Cognitive Realm, then where are they?

I did notice something else today in the Hero of Ages. While Vin is holding Preservation, she refers to the place where her mind and power are mainly located as a Nexus. And coincidentally there are three Nexuses on Roshar, and three Shards as well. I don't know is this is happenstance or what. It makes me think though, there are also three Seas, one for each Shardpool. And we know for sure that at least one of the Expanses is another Shardworld, maybe the others are as well. I don't know if this is just idle speculation but it sure would wrap up nicely.

[happyman he/him]

I see a lot of speculation in this thread, but not a lot of hard facts. We are these ideas coming from? The only hard facts I know is that the Shadesmar representation is an in-world artifact. Do we have Word of Brandon on any of the rest?

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I see a lot of speculation in this thread, but not a lot of hard facts. We are these ideas coming from? The only hard facts I know is that the Shadesmar representation is an in-world artifact. Do we have Word of Brandon on any of the rest?

This is pretty much all theorizing.

We do know that there are 10 main Shardworlds in the Cosmere, I believe.

Brandon says there are other inhabited planets in the cosmere with no Shards but the people there would still have cognitive aspects, am I right? If you can't find those aspects in the Cognitive Realm, then where are they?

If we are looking at this as a map, I think we could think of the 10 major worlds to be the big cities. Yes, there are small towns dotted all over the landscape, but they aren't necessarily included on the map.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

This is pretty much all theorizing.

We do know that there are 10 main Shardworlds in the Cosmere, I believe.

If we are looking at this as a map, I think we could think of the 10 major worlds to be the big cities. Yes, there are small towns dotted all over the landscape, but they aren't necessarily included on the map.

Brandon also confirmed that Expanse of densities is a world that we know. Other then that it is all speculation.

[happyman he/him]

Brandon also confirmed that Expanse of densities is a world that we know. Other then that it is all speculation.

Oh, OK then. That's not a lot of information, but it's more than we had before, so the speculation seems a little less extreme. I don't have much to say beyond that, because I tend to not do much with the more speculative topics.

[Zas678 he/him]

I did notice something else today in the Hero of Ages. While Vin is holding Preservation, she refers to the place where her mind and power are mainly located as a Nexus. And coincidentally there are three Nexuses on Roshar, and three Shards as well. I don't know is this is happenstance or what. It makes me think though, there are also three Seas, one for each Shardpool. And we know for sure that at least one of the Expanses is another Shardworld, maybe the others are as well. I don't know if this is just idle speculation but it sure would wrap up nicely.

Woah, really? That is really really interesting. A nexus huh? Let me find it...

SOMETHING CHANGED.

Vin arose from her contemplation of the world.Something important was happening. She didn't have enough experience to tellwhat it was immediately, but she did see Ruin's nexus suddenly shoot away.

She followed. Speed wasn't an issue. In fact, shedidn't even really feel like she was moving. She "followed" becausethat was how her mind interpreted the experience of instantly moving herconsciousness to the place where Ruin had focused his.

For these were people she knew. People she loved.

She turned back toward the entrance. She didn't want towatch, but she wouldn't be able to do anything else. Her self was everywhere.Even if she pulled her nexus away, she knew that she'd still feel thedeaths—that they would make her tremble and weep.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

Ok so maybe we are way off. That is an interesting take on this issue. It deserves some thought.

So if understand what you are saying if would be something like

Nexus of Truth+Sea of Regret = Honor

Sea of Souls + Nexus of Transition = Cultivation

Nexus of Imagination + Sea of Lost Lights = Odium

Edited December 2, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Windrunner he/him]

Ok so maybe we are way off. That is an interesting take on this issue. It deserves some thought.

So if understand what you are saying if would be something like

Nexus of Truth+Sea of Regret = Honor

Sea of Souls + Nexus of Transition = Cultivation

Nexus of Imagination + Sea of Lost Lights = Odium

This is exactly what I meant! If I may ask, what criteria did you use to make those groupings? I can't decide yet which Nexuses and Seas I would fit with each Shard. One of the names for the Almighty, is Elithanathile (I think) which means one who changes or something like that. But truth would also fit, it is actually honorable.

[Wispsy he/him]

The seas are shaped like roshar, exactly they appear to contain beads which appear to be soul of physical stuff, and can be manipulated with enough stormlight (also assuming other magics can manipulated them in ways too). There appears to be mountains where seas were, and we know expanse of the densities is a world we know, but we have no idea how big it is.... It's like having a map of Europe and writing America in one direction, sure it tells u that over there is America but nothing about the place but the name.

What I wanna know is why there are mountains in the purelake which appears to be not sea deep!

[discipleofhoid he/him]

This is exactly what I meant! If I may ask, what criteria did you use to make those groupings? I can't decide yet which Nexuses and Seas I would fit with each Shard. One of the names for the Almighty, is Elithanathile (I think) which means one who changes or something like that. But truth would also fit, it is actually honorable.

Regret with honor because of the conversation with Dalinar and westward being the place close to honor. Lost lights with Odium because lack of light and Odium seem to go together. Then the nexus closest to the seas with that sea. Not a very good reason for each more I was just giving an example of a way it could be.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

The seas are shaped like roshar, exactly they appear to contain beads which appear to be soul of physical stuff, and can be manipulated with enough stormlight (also assuming other magics can manipulated them in ways too). There appears to be mountains where seas were, and we know expanse of the densities is a world we know, but we have no idea how big it is.... It's like having a map of Europe and writing America in one direction, sure it tells u that over there is America but nothing about the place but the name.

What I wanna know is why there are mountains in the purelake which appears to be not sea deep!

not the soul of those objects (that would be the Spiritual Realm) but the mind, whatever the heck that means when talking about goblets and stuff.