Uses of Duralumin level zinc

[Mistchemist16]

We’ve already seen the fun of using Duralumin + brass to utterly crush someone. But we haven’t yet seen any duralumin + zinc on human subjects. There’s real potential to make people do extreme things that you couldn’t replicate with brass. And bendalloy makes it even better, since you can get duralumin level power without sacrificing your metals. You could even sustain brass and zinc together at duralumin levels, though it’d hardly be subtle.

So I wanted to ponder what you could do with those emotions, especially with time bubbles to sustain it. What would it be like to Riot every emotion a person is feeling all at once, like the opposite of what Vin did to Straff? What would the target feel and what would they remember? And If you used zinc, duralumin, and bendalloy together in high enough amounts, do you think you could control regular people as if they were Hemalurgic constructs? I’m tempted to say no, but high level zinc should be way better at getting people to do stuff than high level brass.

Also, what individual emotions would be interesting to boost? The possibilities I can see include, but aren’t limited to… 

Anger: Generate homicidal rage, perhaps directed towards everything around the target. Even just getting this off once can make a target do something impulsive and start a really bad situation. Just imagine a court trial about whether a murder suspect killed in a moment of passion or under extreme Allomancy

Pleasure: An ecstatic high, possibly to the point of emotional addiction. Pretty useful for making friends.

Desire: Extreme desperation. Pair with some bribes or promises and they’ll eat out of your hands

Fear: Have someone running in terror and in nightmares. Even courageous warriors will fall before you.

Distrust/suspicion: Some tugging and you could get real paranoia going

Also, be very wary of Mistborn cult leaders. They could make fanatics in no time. 
 

Of course, the cost of this raw force is subtlety. So unless you’re a fast talker, and/or have precise Allomancy up your sleeves, the victim will guess what happened sonnet or later. But I still bet you could get lots of mileage from convincing people their extreme feelings are real or even creating irreparable damage from just one moment of impulsive action or one intense memory.

Anyway, if you guys have any cool ideas for how to use duralumin level zinc, let me know. The possibilities are basically endless for even a moderately skilled user

Edited February 16, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

And bendalloy makes it even better, since you can get duralumin level power without sacrificing your metals.

I'm not sure why you say this. A-Bendalloy doesn't increase the efficacy of A-Brass/Zinc. Emotional allomancy isn't like pushing a cart across a floor, where having more time to move so many inches gets a larger result - it's more like Sisyphus and the boulder. Your pull/push can go only so far up the hill before your influence becomes obvious and your effort is to retain that place of most-effect-without-notice (since the emotions want to return to a natural state once you end your effect - i.e. roll back down the hill) until your subject acts/reacts in a beneficial way (though not necessarily an expected way). Trying to compress that effort would either have no effect, or just make your efforts more obvious and less likely to succeed.

11 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Of course, the cost of this raw force is subtlety. So unless you’re a fast talker, and/or have precise Allomancy up your sleeves, the victim will guess what happened sooner or later. But I still bet you could get lots of mileage from convincing people their extreme feelings are real or even creating irreparable damage from just one moment of impulsive action or one intense memory.

More like "almost immediately." This is called Gaslighting and takes more subtlety, not less. The extremes of emotion call immediate attention to changes and only really work well to influence impulsive actions. See Marasi at the end of AoL:

Spoiler

She felt something stirring in her, a powerful curiosity she could not describe. She had to find out who that figure was.

She caught a glimpse of the hem of a dark robe disappearing around a corner. She ran after it, holding her handbag in a tight grip and reaching inside for the small revolver Waxillium had given her.

What am I doing? a part of her mind thought. Running into an alleyway alone? It wasn’t a particularly sensible thing to do. She just felt that she had to do it.

She ran a short distance. . .

“I apologize for bringing you like this,” Ironeyes said. He had a quiet, gravelly voice.

“Like this?” she said, her voice coming out as almost a squeak.

“With emotional Allomancy. I sometimes Pull too hard. I’ve never been as good at this sort of thing as Breeze was. Be calm, child. I will not hurt you.”

She felt an instant calmness, though that felt terribly unnatural, and left her feeling even worse. Calm, but sick. One should not be calm when speaking with Death himself.

She acted on the impulse (though she may have shaken it off if she had stopped to try), while fully aware of the manipulation while being affected. This could actually have been an example of Duralumin Zinc - since we see the effort make her physically ill.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

No, it won't work like this. First of all, you won't be able to control anyone like hemalurgic constructs. There are no cracks in a person's soul for you to break through and assume control. Second of all, Bendalloy has nothing to do with it. Like not at all. What would bendalloy buble/energy do in case of emotional allomancy. Thirdly, you can't create emotions that the target doesn't feel. That's the most important lesson from Breeze. For example there are different types of anger, many of which don't cause homicidal rage. And lastly - because of the nature of duralumin, you release a powerful surge of emotion in your target. Human body isn't well adjusted for extreme emotions. People freeze in the face of overwhelming fear, faint from pleasure, collapse due to impossible guilt, or are unable to act because of extreme anger. This is what would happen. Extreme emotions would flood your brain and paralyzed you, overwhelming everything your brain is currently doing. There is no action your body would be able to take. And to add to it, the long term consequences would be far greater than what Straff experienced. Emotions shape our memories and feelings. Extreme emotions induced by duralumin+zinc would imprint on your brain like nothing before. This memory would be forever clear in your mind and cause you fear or discomfort every time you think about it - it would be like reliving it again every time you think about it, that's trauma. In a shorter time frame, right after an allomantic pull, this extreme emotion would still be felt by you, even when it’s no longer rioted, because of how your brain works and how fresh is this memory. And to add even more, duralumin lasts in a split of the second. you won't create a homicidal maniac, because he felt homicidal rage just for a split second, and only memory of this is left now.

Edit: WoB

Spoiler

dwhitlo1

I was re-reading through Vin's fight with Zane, and I think that her method of killing him might be more complicated than necessary. Here is the strategy I would use to fight a mistborn with atium (assuming I have no atium myself or electrum). First I would use a duralumin enhanced soothing to deaden everything except complacency. I would at the same time use a duralumin enhanced riot to spike their sense of complacency. I would then go for the jugular with a duralumin enhanced pewter slash. I think this strategy has a good chance of victory since atium does not show what is going on inside of you, only what you will physically do. Therefore, your enemy will not see the emotional allomancy coming which gives you a few seconds to work with as he is stunned. By the way, if you do not think complacency is a riotable emotion replace it with love. What do you think? Does my strategy have a chance of success?

Brandon Sanderson

I like this strategy. Thinking outside the proverbial box. I think it has a good chance of succeeding, depending. Remember, emotional Allomancy is NOT mind control. And a duralumin-fueled blast of emotion is going to draw a lot of attention to itself, but will still be stunning. So yes, I'd say this is a valid method of taking on someone with atium.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 16, 2015)

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by alder24

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Second of all, Bendalloy has nothing to do with it. Like not at all. What would bendalloy buble/energy do in case of emotional allomancy.

Temporal Allomancy does effect Emotional Allomancy, and it could be used to amplify or reduce the effect, depending on how it's used.

Quote

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Thirdly, you can't create emotions that the target doesn't feel. That's the most important lesson from Breeze.

I don't remember Breeze saying or teaching that. But, I also haven't really read Mistborn era 1 in a while. Could you please tell me where he says that?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 For example there are different types of anger, many of which don't cause homicidal rage. And lastly - because of the nature of duralumin, you release a powerful surge of emotion in your target. Human body isn't well adjusted for extreme emotions. People freeze in the face of overwhelming fear, faint from pleasure, collapse due to impossible guilt, or are unable to act because of extreme anger. This is what would happen. Extreme emotions would flood your brain and paralyzed you, overwhelming everything your brain is currently doing. There is no action your body would be able to take. And to add to it, the long term consequences would be far greater than what Straff experienced. Emotions shape our memories and feelings. Extreme emotions induced by duralumin+zinc would imprint on your brain like nothing before. This memory would be forever clear in your mind and cause you fear or discomfort every time you think about it - it would be like reliving it again every time you think about it, that's trauma. In a shorter time frame, right after an allomantic pull, this extreme emotion would still be felt by you, even when it’s no longer rioted, because of how your brain works and how fresh is this memory. And to add even more, duralumin lasts in a split of the second. you won't create a homicidal maniac, because he felt homicidal rage just for a split second, and only memory of this is left now.

I don't think that Emotional Allomancy has that big of an impact on your psyche, even when brought to duralumin-levels of power.

TLM spoilers...

Spoiler

Marasi is hit with incredibly powerful Emotional Allomancy, probably much stronger than even normally achievable via duralumin as a sizable amount of liquid Investiture was used, but we don't see her have lingering damage done to her, nor does she fall unconscious from the overwhelming artificial emotions she feels. I suppose this could be because she has already learned to deal with shame, but the effects of the Emotional Allomancy just don't seem to be that big of a deal in the long run.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, it won't work like this. First of all, you won't be able to control anyone like hemalurgic constructs. There are no cracks in a person's soul for you to break through and assume control.

Even full-blown Shards of Adonalsium cannot control someone unless their soul is cracked open enough, and the only way we've seen that be accomplishable is with Hemalurgy. No matter how much duralumin and bendalloy you used to enhance your Emotional Allomancy, you wouldn't be able to puppeteer someone (though obviously, you could influence them).

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Temporal Allomancy does effect Emotional Allomancy, and it could be used to amplify or reduce the effect, depending on how it's used.

That's very interesting WoB. From the inside of the bubble you have to do multiple duralumin burns to achieve a bigger effect. It can work very well in all the "vs'' topics!

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't remember Breeze saying or teaching that. But, I also haven't really read Mistborn era 1 in a while. Could you please tell me where he says that?

I doubt I will be able to find it now. I read TFE just before the TLM release, so I remember him (or maybe Kel) saying this, and Vin repeating it in her mind sometimes. I think in era 2 it could be mentioned as well. But it is a very important part of emotional allomancy, it doesn't create emotions, it only uses the existing ones.

25 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that Emotional Allomancy has that big of an impact on your psyche, even when brought to duralumin-levels of power.

It can with duralumin, emotions will disappear, but the memory will last. The more powerful emotions, the clearer the memory will remain, depending on the emotion that was rioted, it can be imprinted on your mind and can cause you some trauma. Like Straff was constantly feeling fear when he thinks about Vin and what she did to him.

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

I tried to avoid TLM spoilers. At the same time the governor of Bilming was laying on the ground with convulsions. Which ties up nicely to what I told earlier - Marasi didn't feel much guilt at that point in her life, she accepted and resolved her problems and didn't feel guilt anymore, allowing her to quickly overcome this powerful emotional allomancy, while the governor done things that cause him to subconsciously feel a lot of guilt, which was rioted to the extreme.

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Temporal Allomancy does effect Emotional Allomancy, and it could be used to amplify or reduce the effect, depending on how it's used.

Thanks, I had not seen that WoB. However, the point remains - if you want to manipulate somebody you need a steady low-level Push or Pull to avoid it being noticed as manipulation. Even if a Bubble enhanced Sooth or riot could be like Duralumin it would not further the stated goal. 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't remember Breeze saying or teaching that. But, I also haven't really read Mistborn era 1 in a while. Could you please tell me where he says that?

TFE Ch 10:

Spoiler

Breeze asked. “This is the lesson you must learn, my dear. If you can’t read how someone is feeling, then you’ll never have a subtle touch with emotional Allomancy. Push someone too hard, and even the most blind of skaa will realize that they’re being manipulated somehow. Touch too softly, and you won’t produce a noticeable effect—other, more powerful emotions will still rule your subject.”

Breeze shook his head. “It’s all about understanding people,” he continued. “You have to read how someone is feeling, change that feeling by nudging it in the proper direction, then channel their newfound emotional state to your advantage. That, my dear, is the challenge in what we do! It is difficult, but for those who can do it well . . .”

So, a skilled misting might be able to alter an emotion, but not manufacture an emotion that wasn't present. 

See also WoA Ch 36:

Spoiler

Tindwyl was an even better example. Perhaps some would call Breeze a meddler for Soothing her sense of responsibility, and her disappointment, when she saw Sazed. But, Breeze had not created the emotions that the disappointment had been overshadowing. Emotions like curiosity. Respect. Love.

No, if Soothing were simple “mind control,” Tindwyl would have turned away from Sazed as soon as the two left Breeze’s area of influence. But Breeze knew that she wouldn’t. A crucial decision had been made, and Breeze had not made that decision for her. The moment had been building for weeks; it would have occurred with or without Breeze.

He had just helped it happen sooner.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that Emotional Allomancy has that big of an impact on your psyche, even when brought to duralumin-levels of power.

See also these scenes in WoA with Straff:

Spoiler

WoA Ch 27

Quote

She smiled, extinguishing her tin. Then she burned duralumin and Soothed Straff’s emotions with explosive pressure, wiping away all capacity for feeling within him. His shadow stumbled beneath the attack.

Her brass was gone a moment later, and she turned on her tin again, watching the black patterns on the canvas.

“She’s powerful, Father,” Elend said. “She’s more powerful than any Allomancer you’ve known. She killed the Lord Ruler. She was trained by the Survivor of Hathsin. And if you kill me, she’ll kill you.”

Straff righted himself, and the tent fell silent again.

<snip>

That awful sensation returned. The sense of nothingness, the horrible knowledge that someone else had complete and total control over his emotions. Nobody should have that much power over him. Especially not Elend.

He should be dead. He came right to me. And I let him go.

And thereafter, every time rememebers the experience the feeling returns and he shivers

WoA Ch 39:

Quote

Even with the troops, Straff felt exposed. It wasn’t just the mists, and it wasn’t just the darkness. He could still remember her touch on his emotions.

“You’ve failed me, Zane,” Straff said.

<snip>

The protection provided by a Mistborn outweighed the danger of Zane’s insanity.

Barely.

“You needn’t worry, Father,” Zane said. “The city will still be yours.”

“It will never be mine as long as that woman lives,” Straff said. He shivered.

<snip>

Straff frowned. “Could this woman of yours slip the Mistborn something?”

Penrod paled slightly. “I . . .don’t think that would be wise, my lord. Besides, you know Mistborn constitutions.”

Perhaps she really is incapacitated, Straff thought. If we moved in . . . The chill of her touch on his emotions returned. Numbness. Nothingness.

“You needn’t fear her so, my lord,” Penrod said.

Straff raised an eyebrow. “I’m not afraid, I’m wary.

WoA Ch 55

Quote

An arrow suddenly shot from the midst of the charging koloss.

But, koloss didn’t use bows. Besides, the monsters were still far away, and that object was far too big to be an arrow anyway. A rock, perhaps? It seemed larger than . . .

It began to fall down toward Straff’s army. Straff stared into the sky, riveted by the strange object. It grew more distinct as it fell. It wasn’t an arrow, nor was it a rock.

It was a person—a person with a flapping mistcloak.

“No!” Straff yelled. She’s supposed to be gone!

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I would think you might be able to controll someone off the hinges - though you'd almost certainly be able to control The emporer before she uses the stamp on him. I wonder is stamps can push someone over the edge - obviosly not enough to get there, but 1 spike, slightly crazy, and a soul stamp might allow someone to control them.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:45 AM, alder24 said:

It can with duralumin, emotions will disappear, but the memory will last. The more powerful emotions, the clearer the memory will remain, depending on the emotion that was rioted, it can be imprinted on your mind and can cause you some trauma. Like Straff was constantly feeling fear when he thinks about Vin and what she did to him.

TLM spoilers:

  Hide contents

I tried to avoid TLM spoilers. At the same time the governor of Bilming was laying on the ground with convulsions. Which ties up nicely to what I told earlier - Marasi didn't feel much guilt at that point in her life, she accepted and resolved her problems and didn't feel guilt anymore, allowing her to quickly overcome this powerful emotional allomancy, while the governor done things that cause him to subconsciously feel a lot of guilt, which was rioted to the extreme.

 

 

On 2/17/2023 at 0:03 PM, Treamayne said:

See also these scenes in WoA with Straff:

  Hide contents

WoA Ch 27

And thereafter, every time rememebers the experience the feeling returns and he shivers

WoA Ch 39:

WoA Ch 55

 

 

Yeah, I can see now.

Straff may not have been completely incapacitated from the duralumin zinc blast, but it did have lasting effects on his decision making, because he could remember the effects.

I wonder if a Mistborn or Hemalurgist could use this to blast their followers with loyalty, then have them continue to have some lingering effect because of the memories? I suppose it would probably depend on whether they decide to act on their base emotions or if they use a more logical approach, but still.

[Mistchemist16]

23 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

 

Yeah, I can see now.

Straff may not have been completely incapacitated from the duralumin zinc blast, but it did have lasting effects on his decision making, because he could remember the effects.

I wonder if a Mistborn or Hemalurgist could use this to blast their followers with loyalty, then have them continue to have some lingering effect because of the memories? I suppose it would probably depend on whether they decide to act on their base emotions or if they use a more logical approach, but still.

This is actually one of the places where my speculation stands. If a Mistborn was leading a cult, they could use the intense emotions to further gaslight their followers. And they’d still have brass to help make victims less suspicious post-duralumin. You could even go so far as to pretend to be really bad at zinc and/or brass (hence the obvious blasts) while hiding skill in the latter. Just make sure the victim isn’t hiding behind a coppercloud or aluminum hat. And that you can get even a little loyalty to begin with

Edited February 26, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I've always thought of Duralumin+Emotional Allomancy a lot because psychology is my favourite field of science, but I really think that if you went to an extreme with it, specifically multiple Duralumin/Nicrosil bursts of emotional Allomancy compounded from inside a Bendalloy bubble (although if you Riot the right emotion in the right circumstances you could probably manage with just regular one Duralumin/Nicrosil blast), you'd likely cause a heart attack or at the very least trigger some form of anxiety or panic attack, not to mention lasting trauma that could potentially result in PTSD like Alder said. Soothing isn't nearly as dangerous as Rioting has the potential to be since you could make someone drop dead of a heart attack with itnstantly, but I can still very easily imagine a psychological horror story with a sadistic psychopath Hemalurgist who tortures people using extreme Rioting/Soothing