Thoughts of Tarson

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

The koloss blooded thug... 

In the first books Ham seemed to suggest that Vin got more out of pewter than a stronger person. Was Vin actually just a stronger pewter allomamcer or was it her lack of strength that allowed her to appear stronger?  

Spoiler

I have a theory on Shallan appearing to gain more strength from stormlight because she does not train and is not at a baseline as close to using the full potential of her strength when compared to Kaladin. 

Could it be that Vin appears stronger because she is not as trained as Ham? Or is it literally that everyone just get boosted to the same level period?  

How does this work for a kolossblooded? Is Tarson gaining less benefit than other thugs or would his kolossbloodedness stack and allow pewter to be even more effective for him?  

I think I remember him being able to shrug off any would other than a 1 hit kill while burning pewter and I assume that is a result of having the koloss toughness combined with the pewterarm effects.  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The koloss blooded thug... 

In the first books Ham seemed to suggest that Vin got more out of pewter than a stronger person. Was Vin actually just a stronger pewter allomamcer or was it her lack of strength that allowed her to appear stronger?  

  Reveal hidden contents

I have a theory on Shallan appearing to gain more strength from stormlight because she does not train and is not at a baseline as close to using the full potential of her strength when compared to Kaladin. 

Could it be that Vin appears stronger because she is not as trained as Ham? Or is it literally that everyone just get boosted to the same level period?

It's not just pewter, Vin is just stronger (more skilled) Mistborn than all others. Even Kel notice that she can steel push against his push almost as an equal, where normally, as much lighter than him, she should be pushed away. She is more skilled Mistborn, as Allomancy was instinctive for her. Sazed thinks she had to draw a little from Mists when she was a kid.

Spoiler

Questioner

We were talking about Kelsier, and how he was much more powerful than most Mistborn, and how Vin was slightly more than most Mistborn...

Brandon Sanderson

Why were Vin and Kelsier more powerful?

Questioner

I know why Kelsier, but why Vin?

Brandon Sanderson

Vin was not more powerful. Vin just took to it very naturally. She was highly skilled. It was very instinctive to her, but Elend was actually more powerful than she was, if you count just raw power. Vin just knew her stuff. Beyond that Vin is a rare individual that for reasons I have not explained yet, was able to draw in the mists for a little extra boost at times. And there are other characters you have seen do this.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

HoA Epigraphs, Epilogue

Quote

Vin was unusually talented and strong with Allomancy, even from the beginning. I believe that she must have drawn some of the mist into her when she was still a child, in those brief times when she wasn't wearing the earring.

 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How does this work for a kolossblooded? Is Tarson gaining less benefit than other thugs or would his kolossbloodedness stack and allow pewter to be even more effective for him?  

I think I remember him being able to shrug off any would other than a 1 hit kill while burning pewter and I assume that is a result of having the koloss toughness combined with the pewterarm effects.  

So he should get even more, as burning pewter makes you 2x stronger, but you your're already 1.5x stronger thatn regular person, then with pewter Tarson should be like 3x stronger by just burning pewter.

Spoiler

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could it be that Vin appears stronger because she is not as trained as Ham?

Part of it is the square-cube law. Just as an ant can carry 10-20 times their body weight*, the strength to mass ratio (as explained by Ham in WoA) plays a role in how Vin can make use of her Pewter in ways that larger people cannot. 

We don't see Vin and Ham doing something like a deadlift or benchpress competition. Ham would likely win since he probably has a greater total strength while burning Pewter - but when it comes to physical feats where your strength is pitted against your mass, Vin's higher ratio can make it appear she is stronger. 

*Note: Strength to mass ratio is only part of this, with body structure and an exoskeleton (etc.) also playing a large part. 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Vin is somewhat stronger than a normal Allomancer of her era, but not massively so like Elend. Ham is likely still stronger than her with pewter on (his much higher natural strength likely more than compensates for her larger pewter boost). But her much smaller body mass means she can super-jump with that strength in a way he can't.

Pewter Allomancy adds a fixed amount to your natural strength, so the stronger you are naturally the stronger you are with a-pewter. So if you can lift 100lb normally and it adds +150lb you could lift 250lb with a-pewter; if you could lift 200lb normally you could lift 350lb with a-pewter.  

It's not a multiplier like Feruchemy. The x2 burning/x3 flaring WoB was specifically a question about how much pewter Feruchemy you'd have to tap to match pewter Allomancy; it's really more like +1 average human strength burning/+2 average human strength flaring.

Tarson, specifically, is a pewter *savant*, so he's going to get much more out of his a-pewter than most Thugs or Mistborn. That added on to his higher natural strength from being a koloss-blood ... he'll be *really* strong.

(A-pewter also does a lot more than just muscle strength. It also boosts toughness - not just structural strength (eg harder to break bones) but resistance to things like cold weather - as well as movement speed and dexterity/grace. It also helps with healing, though on a "medical recovery" timescale not a heal-wounds-instantly one like gold Feruchemy. So pewter savants are likely very powerful. But HoA epigraphs say people usually die in the process of becoming one.)

Edited March 9, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

29 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, Vin is somewhat stronger than a normal Allomancer of her era, but not massively so like Elend. Ham is likely still stronger than her with pewter on (his much higher natural strength likely more than compensates for her larger pewter boost). But her much smaller body mass means she can super-jump with that strength in a way he can't.

Pewter Allomancy adds a fixed amount to your natural strength, so the stronger you are naturally the stronger you are with a-pewter. So if you can lift 100lb normally and it adds +150lb you could lift 250lb with a-pewter; if you could lift 200lb normally you could lift 350lb with a-pewter.  

It's not a multiplier like Feruchemy. The x2 burning/x3 flaring WoB was specifically a question about how much pewter Feruchemy you'd have to tap to match pewter Allomancy; it's really more like +1 average human strength burning/+2 average human strength flaring.

Tarson, specifically, is a pewter *savant*, so he's going to get much more out of his a-pewter than most Thugs or Mistborn. That added on to his higher natural strength from being a koloss-blood ... he'll be *really* strong.

(A-pewter also does a lot more than just muscle strength. It also boosts toughness - not just structural strength (eg harder to break bones) but resistance to things like cold weather - as well as movement speed and dexterity/grace. It also helps with healing, though on a "medical recovery" timescale not a heal-wounds-instantly one like gold Feruchemy. So pewter savants are likely very powerful. But HoA epigraphs say people usually die in the process of becoming one.)

I would have loved to see Tarson with F gold as well. Probably would have just ended with a head shot anyways but dang that would have been a tank of an enemy for Wax to deal with. 

[cometaryorbit]

That would be a terrifying combination. Assuming he gets way more health benefit from pewter than a normal Thug due to his savantism, he could store a lot of health easily by burning pewter. His healing wouldn't be quite as crazy as Miles's, but he'd have the superstrength...

Pewter / koloss-blooded is already a scary combination. It's likely the extra base toughness from being koloss-blooded made it easier to survive becoming a pewter savant (which is usually fatal before someone gets there). Add f-gold, wow.

F-steel + pewter savant koloss-blooded would also be terrifying.

Double pewter savant koloss-blooded too ... easier to kill than the other two, but still super scary.

Edited March 10, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tglassy]

I always assumed Pewter WAS a multiplier.  In fact, Brandon's quote kinda shows it is.  It roughtly doubles the strength for each muscle fiber.  So if one person could bench press 100 lbs and another could bench press 200 lbs, then if both burned pewter, the first would be benching 200 and the second would be benching 400, and while flaring the first could get to 300 while the second could do 600.  A Koloss Blooded, then, would be able to bench that much more while burning pewter.  Same with a Pewter Compounder.  Increase the muscle mass from feruchemical pewter, then burn pewter and you get double what you're pulling out of the metalmind.  It makes it extremely efficient.  

I really wish Brandon would spend some time conversing about Pewter Compounding and the intricacies, cause there are a lot of little questions I have about it. 

I assumed Vin was "hitting harder" than Ham because she is smaller, so her force is going into a smaller area.  It's the difference between punching a window, and hitting it with a spike.  That itty bitty point on the spike is holding all the forcce for the punch, so it shatters the window, while punching it with your fist would require a lot more force to break it.  That, and she weighs like 100 lbs soaking wet, but has the strength of a full grown man, so she can launch herself pretty high.  And maybe she is also just better at pulling strength from the metal, so she gets a little more than most.  

I still see it as being a multiplier rather than just a static amount of strength pulled out.  If it's just a static amount of strength, then it almost is a diservice to those who are already strong.  Anyone with Pewter is already a match for anyone else, even if they bulk up.  Why bulk up, then?  Why bother?  The gains are insignificant next to just burning some pewter.

[cometaryorbit]

The quote is talking multiplier because the question is specifically a comparison to Feruchemy.

Bulking up still makes sense because pewter strength isn't so huge as to make the difference in natural strength irrelevant.