Theory: The Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers

[name_here]

Evidence suggests a Desolation is when Odium and Honor instruct their various dudes to throw down. The precise mechanics are uncertain, but apparently the Voidbringers show up/turn hostile (I think that all of Odium's forces are Voidbringers, as opposed to them being some mysterious malevolent species that leads the others or something) and the Heralds get called out of the inferno to lead everyone else in battle against them, and eventually there's a huge showdown, a majority of both sides die, and the surviving Heralds and Voidbringers go back to wherever they are between Desolations.

Only most of the Heralds quit after the previous one and Honor is splintered, so the next round isn't looking so hot for Team Honor.

I think it works something like this:

1. Odium starts his prep work, Midnight Essences and other minor Voidbringer types begin showing up in quantity

2. The Radients notice and step up recruiting

3. The Unmade get called to Roshar by Odium

---Offical start of Desolation---

4. The Heralds arrive

5. Parshmen-form Voidbringers specialize, presumably powered by the Unmade. Voidbinders, Thunderclasts, and other elite Voidbringers form at this point. Alternately, the elite types simply manifest from elsewhere or form from other creatures and the Parshmen serve as foot-soldiers only

6. The Heralds and Radients create a solid front line, gathering as much of the population as possible.

7. There's the fight immediately prior to the prologue, most everyone dies

---Offical end of Desolation---

8. Surviving Heralds and Unmade withdraw from Roshar

9. Elite Voidbringers get hunted down, no new ones can form until the next Desolation

Time passes

10. goto 1

[happyman he/him]

Evidence suggests a Desolation is when Odium and Honor instruct their various dudes to throw down. The precise mechanics are uncertain, but apparently the Voidbringers show up/turn hostile (I think that all of Odium's forces are Voidbringers, as opposed to them being some mysterious malevolent species that leads the others or something) and the Heralds get called out of the inferno to lead everyone else in battle against them, and eventually there's a huge showdown, a majority of both sides die, and the surviving Heralds and Voidbringers go back to wherever they are between Desolations.

Only most of the Heralds quit after the previous one and Honor is splintered, so the next round isn't looking so hot for Team Honor.

I think it works something like this:

1. Odium starts his prep work, Midnight Essences and other minor Voidbringer types begin showing up in quantity

2. The Radients notice and step up recruiting

3. The Unmade get called to Roshar by Odium

---Offical start of Desolation---

4. The Heralds arrive

5. Parshmen-form Voidbringers specialize, presumably powered by the Unmade. Voidbinders, Thunderclasts, and other elite Voidbringers form at this point. Alternately, the elite types simply manifest from elsewhere or form from other creatures and the Parshmen serve as foot-soldiers only

6. The Heralds and Radients create a solid front line, gathering as much of the population as possible.

7. There's the fight immediately prior to the prologue, most everyone dies

---Offical end of Desolation---

8. Surviving Heralds and Unmade withdraw from Roshar

9. Elite Voidbringers get hunted down, no new ones can form until the next Desolation

Time passes

10. goto 1

This is a good outline, and is definitely what the people on Roshar generally think happened (barring the specific knowledge of Honor and Odium as Shards, although pieces are left). The trouble is, didn't one of the Knights in Dalinar's vision specifically state that the Midnight Essences were not Voidbringers?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

This is a good outline, and is definitely what the people on Roshar generally think happened (barring the specific knowledge of Honor and Odium as Shards, although pieces are left). The trouble is, didn't one of the Knights in Dalinar's vision specifically state that the Midnight Essences were not Voidbringers?

happyman would be correct!

“The Desolation,” he said. “That means the Voidbringers, right? Those are what we fought this night?” The knight sniffed dismissively. “Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 6413-6415). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

Which supports my theory that the term 'Voidbringer' has been conflated with all of Odium's forces since it has been 4500 years since the last desolation. I still agree that the Parshmen are not Voidbringers either. Maybe in the same way that Honor had Heralds, perhaps Odium had the sparsely mentioned 'Unmade' who were also known colloquially as the Voidbringers...

[Tulir he/him]

I am completely behind the idea that the Voidbringers are like the generals of the Desolations or something similar. I completely agree with name_here as how the Desolations happen, though I think that the Dustbringers still go into that formation as Odium's team.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I do think that the Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers, but I do think they are/were part of Odium's armies against Honor/Heralds/Radiants/People, I think they were more the footsoldiers aka Dustbringers, thunderclasts would be like Heavy Cavalry, Midnight Essences would be infiltrators/scouts, and Voidbringers will end up being the leaders, similar to the Knights Radiant or some such...

I'm guessing the Voidbringers are humans who serve Odium. Alternatively, has anyone thought that "Voidbringer" might be the equivalent of "Surgebinder" i.e. anyone who can use Voidbinding?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I'm guessing the Voidbringers are humans who serve Odium. Alternatively, has anyone thought that "Voidbringer" might be the equivalent of "Surgebinder" i.e. anyone who can use Voidbinding?

Well we have the "Unmade" from the epitaphs which I presume to be Odium's version of the Heralds, and we know that Voidbinders are capable of perfectly containing stormlight (per Szeth), so there's no reason to think that might not be the case... I still think it's simply a conflation of a specific term to apply to all the forces of Odium during the desolations, but I guess we'll have to RAFO!

[Vortaan he/him]

Besides the fact that he's an evil force of evil, why does Odium care about Roshar enough to create Desolations? The feeling I get is that he's rolling around the Cosmere, shattering Shards and taking names... so why does Roshar matter to him at all?

[Lamguin]

Re: Odium sticking around on Roshar for the long haul.

From the Mistborn trilogy, we learned that shardholders don't think much of time. So it's not really a long game so much as The Game. Tiny imbalances in power eventually lead to large imbalances in power.

The nature of his shard likely does not allow him to leave a job half finished. It also likely doesn't allow him to take up any power that another shardholder loses. That ability seems unique to Sazed's circumstances of two shards becoming available at once.

Honor's shard might not be as thoroughly shattered as I implied from the book. Or I could be completely wrong, and honor's shard simply has a new shardholder.

At a guess, I'd say that he went to go shatter Unity and Devotion after breaking Honor. Neither shard seems well suited to defending itself from Odium, and the letter implies that he had help. Not sure why he doesn't have help here on Roshar, though. Anyway, that little diversion would have been something like a vacation. Sun, surf, sand, deicide. Fun and relaxation, you know?

[Aeshdan he/him]

Besides the fact that he's an evil force of evil, why does Odium care about Roshar enough to create Desolations? The feeling I get is that he's rolling around the Cosmere, shattering Shards and taking names... so why does Roshar matter to him at all?

I think another point is that Honor is one of the most dangerous Shards to Odium, so he doesn't want anybody reuniting that Shard.

[Vortaan he/him]

I think another point is that Honor is one of the most dangerous Shards to Odium, so he doesn't want anybody reuniting that Shard.

Interesting. So here's a theory. The Oathpact has some kind of sustaining effect on Honor. When it's broken, his Shard splinters. The Desolations are for the sole purpose of making the Heralds break the Pact. While he waits for it to work, Odium rolls around the Cosmere, shattering other Shards.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Interesting. So here's a theory. The Oathpact has some kind of sustaining effect on Honor. When it's broken, his Shard splinters. The Desolations are for the sole purpose of making the Heralds break the Pact. While he waits for it to work, Odium rolls around the Cosmere, shattering other Shards.

Except I'm pretty sure he doesn't die until after the Recreance, which is after the Oathpact is broken.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

Except I'm pretty sure he doesn't die until after the Recreance, which is after the Oathpact is broken.

Honor dies the first time Odium comes after the Oathpact is broken. Maybe, as suggested in this thread, the Ten Heralds are the holders of various parts of Honor's shard. When the Oathpact is whole, Honor's shard is bound together and can be wielded by the shardbearer, the Almighty. Because the Oathpact is broken, the Almighty's power is reduced, and can be killed by Odium when he comes back to Roshar for "the true desolation".

Also, I got the impression that the visions Dalinar received were like some sort of prerecorded message.

Like voicemail: "I'm sorry, but Honor is currently dead. If you need to fight Odium, try getting him to appoint a champion. If you need to unite the Alethi Highprinces, please contact Dalinar Kholin. If you need someone killed, please contact Szeth-son-son-Vallano. If you need someone to stare at a lighteyes really angrily, contact Kalidan Stormblessed. Thank you for your patience."

[CrazyRioter she/her]

well we knew the visions were a sort of recorded message because Honor himself said as much, the issue is when they were recorded, I'm going to guess after the Recreance but quite a while before the book properly starts.

[Vortaan he/him]

Except I'm pretty sure he doesn't die until after the Recreance, which is after the Oathpact is broken.

Doesn't invalidate the theory. Preservation hung on for a very long time at less than full consciousness. Maybe the messages are Honor's version of that.

[Ari he/him]

To the point that it would be "too simple" for Jasnah to be right in her theory in the first book, that's not a very good argument for two reasons.

First, there's also the possibility that Jasnah's right about Parshmen being Voidbringers, but that she doesn't really understand what the Voidbringers are, and that it's more complicated than she thinks.

Secondly, there's the possibility that Jasnah's simply right, but other people won't believe her, and that there are other large conflicts in the plot, with the impending rise of the voidbringers being more of a secondary plot point, or a sort of pressure valve for SA#2.

[name_here]

Thirdly, it's possible she's simply too late, the Desolation is on and knowing about the Parshmen-Voidbringer connection no longer matters. Besides, Taln is manifest, so what Jasnah has or hasn't figured out is not terribly important compared to what Taln knows.

[Zarepath he/him]

Also worth noting is that perhaps the Parshendi ARE the voidbringers, but that their goals aren't in line with Odium's anymore for this Desolation. Somebody mentioned in another thread the idea that the Parshendi are engaging in this stalemate war with the Alethi (provoking through assassination, only matching their war efforts to keep the war going, fighting with honor, their shardbearer respecting Dalinar) to prepare the Alethi for the coming Desolation -- to get a big military force marshaled together and powered by all the massive gemstones they mine out of the Shattered Plains.

If such were the case, I'd be inclined to think that the Parshendi were operating very contrary to how evil Voidbringers might before a coming Desolation. It would imply that they know something's coming (which may just be b/c they're Voidbringers), but also that they're playing for a different team this time around, so to speak.

[Aeshdan he/him]

"I'm sorry, but Honor is currently dead. If you need to fight Odium, try getting him to appoint a champion. If you need to unite the Alethi Highprinces, please contact Dalinar Kholin. If you need someone killed, please contact Szeth-son-son-Vallano. If you need someone to stare at a lighteyes really angrily, contact Kalidan Stormblessed. Thank you for your patience."

Ok, that's worth an upvote.

[TheFinisher4Ever he/him]

I couldnt agree more with this theory. Mainly because the Parshmen/Parashendi dont seem dangerous enough to even threaten the KR with 10 heralds. Sure the initial suprise would kill many, but then it would be a slaughter as 1000+ full surgebinding shardbearers lead by the 10 Heralds would tear them apart like tissue paper.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Also worth noting is that perhaps the Parshendi ARE the voidbringers, but that their goals aren't in line with Odium's anymore for this Desolation. Somebody mentioned in another thread the idea that the Parshendi are engaging in this stalemate war with the Alethi (provoking through assassination, only matching their war efforts to keep the war going, fighting with honor, their shardbearer respecting Dalinar) to prepare the Alethi for the coming Desolation -- to get a big military force marshaled together and powered by all the massive gemstones they mine out of the Shattered Plains.

If such were the case, I'd be inclined to think that the Parshendi were operating very contrary to how evil Voidbringers might before a coming Desolation. It would imply that they know something's coming (which may just be b/c they're Voidbringers), but also that they're playing for a different team this time around, so to speak.

Mostly agree, with a few additions. I think they are currently being led by a Herald. This is pretty flimsy, the reasoning behind it is that when Kaladin examines one of their knives, he notes that they are exceptionally well-made, have glyphs on them, and a picture of what he thinks is a Herald, either "Jezerezeh or Nalan.”

Also, there's the hive music mind of the Parshendi. Normal Parshmen don't have this. I think it is vital to the system by which they change. Normally, it would make them into Voidbringers, but in the Parshendi's case, I think a Herald hijacked the frequency, and let them develop normally. However, if this control fails, the Parshendi would be turned evil, which is why they are fighting a pointless, costly war against the Alethi.

Also, I think Voidbringers is a more all-encompassing term than just Parshmen turned evil.

[Triasmus]

Chapter Twenty-nine: Errorgance

“The ones of ash and fire, who killed like a swarm, relentless before the Heralds.”

–Noted in Masly, page 337. Corroborated by Coldwin and Hasavah.

The parshendi don't kill like a swarm. It repeatedly states in the book that the parshendi fight in battle-pairs. I would think that if they killed like a swarm, there wouldn't even be very much organization in their ranks. Killing like a swarm implies, to me at least, that they either waaaay outnumber the opposing force, or they all just ATTACK without any organization, or both. The only time we see them outnumber the Alethi is when Sadeas quit. They might have brought even people to even it out if sadeas stayed, for a ll we know.

They do "think" like a swarm though. They know what to do in battle. Dalinar (i think) comments on the fact that they just KNOW what to do... i think. I don't think that thinking and killing are the same thing though.

There is orange blood in the prologue though.

I personally have a feeling that the parshendi are good guys. Maybe the parshmen are bad guys .

Too many thoughs. I don't want to have to figure out how to fix it... though .

[Eri she/her]

A bit tangent, but my few thoughts:

• Parshendi and Parshmen seem similar to Roshar native lifeforms, so I yhink they have gemhearts (“have” as a bodypart, not just treasure)
  
• IMVHO they're different because Parshendi's hearts are infused with Stormlight (I think I once wrote a post about investiture creating sentience in not-completely-human races)
  
• Voidbringers may be a more infused version; or infused with some different energy (I don't know, is Stormlight of Honor or a mix).
  
• Enslaving of Parshmen might be less like “We won, let's make them slaves!” and more like “We won, let's ensure they don't ever get infused with Stormlight again!”. Why not just kill them? Might be unhonorable (especially if they're only *potential* Voidbringers and do not control what happens when they're infused). Might be just ineffective (maybe they have some means of respawning, it would explain their obsession with not disturbing corpses).
  
• It may also be the other way around – that Parshmen are “empty” therefor may become Voidbringers (when infused with some evil, odious ;-) energy; and Parshendi are immune because they're infused with Stormlight.
  
• It may also be a difference not in Light but in spren. Can a spren be trapped in a gemheart or only in a cut gem?
  

In general: they can be good guys *and* Voidbringers. It may be an involuntary thing.I don't remember how to make a spoiler tag work, so I'd write it very short: imagine the HoA events if the Resolution didn't happen because of weakness.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Eri

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I think the greatshells' gemhearts have spren trapped in them, that are released when they die (there's a special kind of spren that appears when a chasmfiend or other greatshell is killed that aren't seen anywhere else).

[Observer]

I never liked the idea of Parshmen being Voidbringers. Why?

There are 10 more books. No way Brandon's showing us the hidden enemy of legend and using the timebomb thing again.

I always figured they were some kind of servant of Honor considering the way they do things...

Edited August 28, 2012 by Observer

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

I never liked the idea of Parshmen being Voidbringers. Why?

There are 10 more books. No way Brandon's showing us the hidden enemy of legend and using the timebomb thing again.

I always figured they were some kind of servant of Honor considering the way they do things...

I agree, similar to how Koloss were mentioned in MFE, but never seen onstage.

I think Brandon has a good sense of Chekov's gun , so with the Parshendi really not fitting the description, and none of the Parshmen going Balrog, I'm waiting for the next book.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Voldy