Radiant Platespren

[Firesong she/her]

59 minutes ago, LordSolar said:

I think Willshapers may get Joyspren, definitly seems more in line than Captivityspren, a Willshaper following through on their ideals should cause Joyspren.

But the Platespren we have seen so far take on the colours associated with their Order. Windspren for Windrunners, for example. As the Plate is the Order Colour, and they make up the Plate. 

Joyspren are blue, and Willshapers are purple. 

Fearspren fit that. But they don't really have much connection to LIghtspren. 

[Humble_Knight]

I think we have seen gravitation spren; I think we see them attracted to a lashing Kaladin does in either TWOK or WOR. I think they provide that slight purple tint we see on Skybreaker plate.

I think musicspren are perfect for Willshaper plate for a bunch of reasons. First, we learned the connection between music and light in RoW. The main lightspren we know is Timbre, which is a music term. Finally, how cool is the idea that Singers will attract musicspren to form their plate, singing their plate into existence

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, Humble_Knight said:

I think we have seen gravitation spren; I think we see them attracted to a lashing Kaladin does in either TWOK or WOR. I think they provide that slight purple tint we see on Skybreaker plate.

Those were Bindspren. That was Full Lashing, sticking two objects together, surge of Adhesion, not Gravitation. They aren't purple but dark blue.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spren#Bindspren

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Humble_Knight said:

I think we have seen gravitation spren; I think we see them attracted to a lashing Kaladin does in either TWOK or WOR. I think they provide that slight purple tint we see on Skybreaker plate.

I think musicspren are perfect for Willshaper plate for a bunch of reasons. First, we learned the connection between music and light in RoW. The main lightspren we know is Timbre, which is a music term. Finally, how cool is the idea that Singers will attract musicspren to form their plate, singing their plate into existence

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Those were Bindspren. That was Full Lashing, sticking two objects together, surge of Adhesion, not Gravitation. They aren't purple but dark blue.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spren#Bindspren

Here are the references:

Spoiler

WoK Ch 57:

Quote

He felt a chill. The rock began to stream with luminescent vapors. When Kaladin pulled his hand away, the stone remained where it was, clinging to the side of the building.

Kaladin leaned close, squinting. He thought he could faintly make out tiny spren, dark blue and shaped like little splashes of ink, clustering around the place where the rock met the wall.

“Bindspren,” Syl said, walking up beside his head; she was still standing in the air.

“They’re holding the rock in place.”

“Maybe. Or maybe they’re attracted to what you’ve done in affixing the stone there.”

WoR Ch 12:

Quote

 

“Spren,” Rock said, pointing. “They pull the stone against the wall.”

“What?” Sigzil said, scrambling over, squinting at the rock Kaladin had pressed against the wall. “I don’t see them.”

“Ah,” Rock said. “Then they do not wish to be seen.” He bowed his head toward them. “Apologies, mafah’liki.”

Sigzil frowned, looking closer, holding up a sphere to light the area. Kaladin walked over and joined them. He could make out the tiny purple spren if he looked closely. “They’re there, Sig,” Kaladin said.

“Then why can’t I see them?”

“It has to do with my abilities,” Kaladin said, glancing at Syl, who sat on a cleft in the rock nearby, one leg draping over and swinging.

“But Rock—”

“I am alaii’iku,” Rock said, raising a hand to his breast.

“Which means?” Sigzil asked impatiently.

“That I can see these spren, and you cannot.” 

 

 

Color probably changes slighly depending on sunlight vs light from gems. . . 

[Elite01]

So is the rationale behind stonewards plate being made of painespren is that they can handle it? We haven't seen a stoneward POV yet but I find it hard to imagine that a stoneward would draw an unusual amount of painspren to them. Could they draw some kind of spren we haven't seen like stone spren or some kind of stubborn spren? 

[Firesong she/her]

21 minutes ago, Elite01 said:

So is the rationale behind stonewards plate being made of painespren is that they can handle it? We haven't seen a stoneward POV yet but I find it hard to imagine that a stoneward would draw an unusual amount of painspren to them. Could they draw some kind of spren we haven't seen like stone spren or some kind of stubborn spren? 

We have kind of seen a Stoneward PoV, we have seen Taln's PoV, if you consider the Herald of an Order to essentially be a part of it (even if they technically aren't). But that is the closest we have so far. 

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Elite01 said:

So is the rationale behind stonewards plate being made of painespren is that they can handle it? We haven't seen a stoneward POV yet but I find it hard to imagine that a stoneward would draw an unusual amount of painspren to them. Could they draw some kind of spren we haven't seen like stone spren or some kind of stubborn spren? 

Stonewards are people who "will stand where others fall". I think it's more important that Singer's Warform comes from the bond with Painspren, and the order of Stonewards is traditionally infantry and the frontline troops, composed of the finest soldiers. They are dependable but also stubborn to the point of taking on projects larger than themselves. They are proud to be associated with Taln, and he withstood 4500 years of torture without breaking. That's why I think Painspren are their platespren.

Spoiler

ParshendiOfRhuidean

Is there a connection between the roles of a certain order of Knight Radiant and the singer form associated with their Platespren, such as artistic Lightweavers and artform both having creation spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a connection, a deliberate connection on my part there. It's hard to keep all of these things one-to-one because there are way more forms than there are orders of Knights Radiant and things like that, so don't read too far into it, but I do make those connections deliberately where I can.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

[Firesong she/her]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Stonewards are people who "will stand where others fall". I think it's more important that Singer's Warform comes from the bond with Painspren, and the order of Stonewards is traditionally infantry and the frontline troops, composed of the finest soldiers. They are dependable but also stubborn to the point of taking on projects larger than themselves. They are proud to be associated with Taln, and he withstood 4500 years of torture without breaking. That's why I think Painspren are their platespren.

  Reveal hidden contents

ParshendiOfRhuidean

Is there a connection between the roles of a certain order of Knight Radiant and the singer form associated with their Platespren, such as artistic Lightweavers and artform both having creation spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a connection, a deliberate connection on my part there. It's hard to keep all of these things one-to-one because there are way more forms than there are orders of Knights Radiant and things like that, so don't read too far into it, but I do make those connections deliberately where I can.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Platespren colour also matches the colour , and Stonewards are a near-orange colour, and Painspren are orange. So that is further evidence. (Lightweavers and Creationspren don't exactly, but the official art of Lightweaver plate shows it as having a lot of silver, which does match. While Stonewards do have orange plate)

I believe that:

• Bondsmith: Gloryspren (Dalinar always attracts so many Gloryspren, especially when he opened the Perpendicularity, Bondsmiths are also associated with gold) 
• Flamespren: Dustrbingers (both are strongly associated with fire and rubies)
• Lifespren: Truthwatchers (Should be obvious, both really strongly associated with life and the colour green), but could also be Edgedancers, but the colour doesn't work
• Skybreakers: Gloomspren or Exhuastionspren? (based on colour matches and rather vague thematic connections)

Edited August 17, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Skybreakers: Gloomspren or Exhuastionspren? (based on colour matches and rather vague thematic connections)

I would have thought Concentrationspren:

Spoiler

OB Ch 54:

Quote

Concentrationspren rippled in the air like waves overhead—a rarity in Alethkar, but common here—and logicspren darted through them, like tiny stormclouds.

OB Ch 104:

Spoiler

Each gemstone had been removed from its individual drawer, catalogued, and numbered. While one group listened and wrote, others sat at tables, busy translating. The room buzzed with a low hum of discussion and scratching reeds, concentrationspren dotting the air like ripples in the sky.

Edgedancer Ch 13:

Quote

It was true. This whole building was full of scribes rushing this way and that, carrying piles of paper to one windowless alcove or another. They even had this spren that hung out here, one Lift had only seen a couple of times. It looked like little ripples in the air, like a raindrop in a pond—only without the rain, and without the pond. Wyndle called them concentrationspren.

 

Ripples in the air sound to me like they may be related to Highspren. . . And I would guess that investigating and passing judgement requires concentration. Coppermind mentions:

Quote

They most commonly appear around people who are deeply focused on their task.

Skybreakers seem rather "focused" to me (so far). 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Treamayne

[alder24]

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I would have thought Concentrationspren:

  Hide contents

OB Ch 54:

OB Ch 104:

  Hide contents

Each gemstone had been removed from its individual drawer, catalogued, and numbered. While one group listened and wrote, others sat at tables, busy translating. The room buzzed with a low hum of discussion and scratching reeds, concentrationspren dotting the air like ripples in the sky.

Edgedancer Ch 13:

 

Ripples in the air sound to me like they may be related to Highspren. . . And I would guess that investigating and passing judgement requires concentration. Coppermind mentions:

Skybreakers seem rather "focused" to me (so far). 

Blasphemy (joke). But they look like waves, or raindrops - Mistspren vibes for me - that's Truthwatchers, who are scholars and would concentrate a lot. 

 

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

• Skybreakers: Gloomspren or Exhuastionspren? (based on colour matches and rather vague thematic connections)

You made me look at colors, Skybreaker's glyph is gray, Starspren are gray, from coppermind:  "Pinpricks of light dot the starspren's ashen carapace." Now I think it's irrefutable that Skybreaker's platespren are Starspren.

[Firesong she/her]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Blasphemy (joke). But they look like waves, or raindrops - Mistspren vibes for me - that's Truthwatchers, who are scholars and would concentrate a lot. 

 

You made me look at colors, Skybreaker's glyph is gray, Starspren are gray, from coppermind:  "Pinpricks of light dot the starspren's ashen carapace." Now I think it's irrefutable that Skybreaker's platespren are Starspren.

Okay, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Highspren look like space made sentient covered in stars, so makes sense to be connected to starspren. Yeah, I am convinced. (also hope we learn what we are seeing through them, like, is it a real location, or is it just Cognitive and Spiritual shenanigans causing them to form some appearance of a fictional location based on the platonic ideal of a starry night sky filtered through their Identity and Cognitive Ideal)

Edited August 17, 2023 by Firesong

[The Sibling she/her]

Even though Windrunners are the order more associated with blue, due to the strong themes of freedom within the Willshaper's ideals I think that maybe riverspren or rainspren would be cool. Or wavespren? I guess I associate the idea of freedom with water, especially rain, so I think this could be cool.

 

[Firesong she/her]

14 hours ago, The Sibling said:

Even though Windrunners are the order more associated with blue, due to the strong themes of freedom within the Willshaper's ideals I think that maybe riverspren or rainspren would be cool. Or wavespren? I guess I associate the idea of freedom with water, especially rain, so I think this could be cool.

 

The Platespren I feel would have some connection with Purple and Metal and Light. Probably not with water. 

I have a theory they might be about Captivityspren, as those are the exact opposite of them in such a way it paradoxically fits. 

[Treamayne]

28 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I have a theory they might be about Captivityspren, as those are the exact opposite of them in such a way it paradoxically fits

Platespren are something naturally drawn to members of an order by virtue of their powers, traits and/or oaths. Windrunners naturally draw large numbers of windspren as they fall-with-style, Lightweavers natually attract many creationspren as they practice their art(s), Elsecallers naturally draw many logicspren as they cogitate on problems - conversely Axies' interlude told us how difficult it is to attract a captivityspren (he has not accomplished it once in centuries of being jailed) - and the only time we have seen one was in WoR when Kaladin was jailed (likely because Kaladin felt trapped - while Axies never thinks being jailed is a big deal).

I think rather than looking for random themes and colors to find the missing unknowns, it's better to review the text and see what normal spren repeatedly near a Radiant (Lift/Lifespren; Dalinar/Gloryspren, etc.)

Edited August 18, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Platespren are something naturally drawn to members of an order by virtue of their powers, traits and/or oaths. Windrunners naturally draw large numbers of windspren as they fall-with-style, Lightweavers natually attract many creationspren as they practice their art(s), Elsecallers naturally draw many logicspren as they cogitate on problems - conversely Axies' interlude told us how difficult it is to attract a captivityspren (he has not accomplished it once in centuries of being jailed) - and the only time we have seen one was in WoR when Kaladin was jailed (likely because Kaladin felt trapped - while Axies never thinks being jailed is a big deal).

I think rather than looking for random themes and colors to find the missing unknowns, it's better to review the text and see what normal spren repeatedly near a Radiant (Lift/Lifespren; Dalinar/Gloryspren, etc.)

I don't think that Edgedancers would be a green Spren, as so far, we have seen that the colour does match it the plate colour. 

Like the official art of Lightweaver plate has a lot of silver and red, like the silver of the Creationspren. Windrunners attract blue spren and have blue plate. etc. 

Edgedancers are silver and blue, so I expect a more silver coloured spren. 

I think Lift attracting so many Lifespren is due to her being Lift, with all the weird stuff with her and Cultivation. 

I think Truthwatchers are Lifespren, maybe, as they are green and gold, and are also closely associated with life and Cultivation. 

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Edgedancers are silver and blue,

I think that is supposed to be crystal - not silver. Edgedancer's eye color is clear:

Spoiler

OB Ch 65:

Quote

“I’m gonna start any day now,” she said. “You want that fruit, or…”

He leaned forward, pushing the two bowls of dried fruit toward her. She attacked them. Dalinar leaned back in the seat. This girl seemed so out of place. Though she was lighteyed—with pale, clear irises—that didn’t matter as much in the west. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

I think that is supposed to be crystal - not silver. Edgedancer's eye color is clear:

  Hide contents

OB Ch 65:

 

 

I didn't say clear or crystal as neither are really colours (clear usually means transparent and crystal can have a ton of different colours), so I felt silver was a more accurate way to describe what I meant. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

I didn't say clear or crystal as neither are really colours (clear usually means transparent and crystal can have a ton of different colours), so I felt silver was a more accurate way to describe what I meant. 

Understood - my point was if you are looking for spren colored silver - you'll not find a match. You likely need a spren that is see-through or crystalline in nature. . . 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Treamayne

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 8/18/2023 at 4:36 PM, Treamayne said:

Platespren are something naturally drawn to members of an order by virtue of their powers, traits and/or oaths. Windrunners naturally draw large numbers of windspren as they fall-with-style, Lightweavers natually attract many creationspren as they practice their art(s), Elsecallers naturally draw many logicspren as they cogitate on problems - conversely Axies' interlude told us how difficult it is to attract a captivityspren (he has not accomplished it once in centuries of being jailed) - and the only time we have seen one was in WoR when Kaladin was jailed (likely because Kaladin felt trapped - while Axies never thinks being jailed is a big deal).

I think rather than looking for random themes and colors to find the missing unknowns, it's better to review the text and see what normal spren repeatedly near a Radiant (Lift/Lifespren; Dalinar/Gloryspren, etc.)

Just a clarifying question..but what exactly attracts captivity spren? It seems like it's the depression that comes with feeling that there's no way out..no escape. Because Kaladin was in captivity for a long time when we met him and he never drew them, presumably because he was fighting for escape? Or maybe because he was outside by the time he stopped fighting that he still didn't feel the "proper" way to draw them?

It's fairly obvious that someone like Axies would be nearly incapable of attracting them with his cheery outlook on life.

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Just a clarifying question..but what exactly attracts captivity spren? It seems like it's the depression that comes with feeling that there's no way out..no escape. Because Kaladin was in captivity for a long time when we met him and he never drew them, presumably because he was fighting for escape? Or maybe because he was outside by the time he stopped fighting that he still didn't feel the "proper" way to draw them?

I don't think he was "in captivity" a long time when we meet him in WoK - he had been a Slave for a significant amount of time (and been through many "masters" in that time, too) but even in the slave wagons it was less "captivity" and more "slave movement." In prison you know you are there and will be stuck there for a long time. No movement, no freedom, nothing. In the Slave wagons he certainly wasn't free - but he also wasn't in one 8x8 barred cell with no movement and no activity and no other huuman interaction (except rare visitors in prison) - and I think that was the crux of the difference.

In the wagons he was a slave, and currently moved in a wagon with bars; but not a "captive."

When jailed in WoR he not only had more freedom to lose (due to his duties at the time) but he was very much "captive" and isolated. 

Quote

It's fairly obvious that someone like Axies would be nearly incapable of attracting them with his cheery outlook on life.

Concur

Edited August 23, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

When jailed in WoR he not only had more freedom to lose

I feel like that right there is the crux of it. The sharp knowledge of the freedom you used to have in contrast with captivity. That at least makes sense to me much better. Thanks

[Frustration he/him]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:01 AM, Elite01 said:

So is the rationale behind stonewards plate being made of painespren is that they can handle it? We haven't seen a stoneward POV yet but I find it hard to imagine that a stoneward would draw an unusual amount of painspren to them. Could they draw some kind of spren we haven't seen like stone spren or some kind of stubborn spren? 

Painspren are the spren that make warform, that's why.

[Hatman he/him]

On 4/9/2023 at 0:34 PM, Frustration said:

By whom?

Hotly contested implies that the ones in favor are vehemently in favor (which is true) and those that aren't are vehemently against(which is not).

Starspren are probably only rare in the CR, because there aren't stars there.

By me. 

Honorspren (for Windrunners) are basically the super version of windspren. They are bigger, stronger, and smarter, but they look alike, act somewhat alike, and share association with and use of the order's primary surge (adhesion). 

A similar relationship seems to be present between Highspren and gravityspren. They both match up with the Skybreaker's primary surge (Highspren appearance seems like bending of or hole in spacetime). Starspren on the other hand, don't seem to have much of an association. Gravityspren also seem to be an appropriate size (they are seen in the physical realm near creatures they bond and in the cognitive realm pulling boats). 

Additionally, both windspren and gravityspren are known to provide ordinary singer forms. This is not known to be the case for starspren. 

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Hatman said:

By me. 

Honorspren (for Windrunners) are basically the super version of windspren. They are bigger, stronger, and smarter, but they look alike, act somewhat alike, and share association with and use of the order's primary surge (adhesion). 

A similar relationship seems to be present between Highspren and gravityspren. They both match up with the Skybreaker's primary surge (Highspren appearance seems like bending of or hole in spacetime). Starspren on the other hand, don't seem to have much of an association. Gravityspren also seem to be an appropriate size (they are seen in the physical realm near creatures they bond and in the cognitive realm pulling boats). 

Additionally, both windspren and gravityspren are known to provide ordinary singer forms. This is not known to be the case for starspren. 

What kind of surge does Logicspren use? Or Gloryspren? A Logicspren stormcloud look nothing like Inkspren.

Starspren and Highspren don't have much association? Starspren look like moving stars, while Highspren are tear in the air with stars behind. Star is a very big association. They look very similar. Size doesn't matter, spren can change size. 

We don't know most of Singer forms.

Also color of Gravityspren don't match with Skybreakers' glyph - the glyph color is gray, Starspren are gray, Mandras are blue. They don't fit. The Plate color must match their glyph color.

[Ravenclawjedi42]

I think that Laughterspren are the plate spren for Edgedancers. The seem to fit with the order’s theme, and are described as “silver,” like the Edgedancer Shardplate.