Improving spore guns

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 5/28/2023 at 1:27 PM, alder24 said:

Aluminum hats for example. On Lumar both silver and aluminum are lined on the objects because it has a field of effect. There was a WoB on that, I don't know if it is this WoB or different:

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ParshendiOfRhuidean

If an [attractor] fabrial is blocked by aluminum in a certain direction, will the attraction bend around the aluminum or does it work purely off line of sight?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh man... *mumbling* *sigh* All right. This could bend around aluminum. I believe. So. CAN bend around aluminum. Which would allow you to do some cool things. Yeah. That is, I believe... the aluminum is going to set up a big patch of... an interference pattern. Like, imagine it's going to make a shadow. How about that. That's a really good example. It'll bend around the corners like light is going to bend around a corner to a similar extent. Hopefully that helps in your theorizing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

I don't understand how you want to use Sunlight spores in your design. A ball of wax, inside is water and Sunlight spores? Ball melts and water evaporates before you even put it in a gun. 

So your whole bullet would shatter on ignition. That's not good. The metal tip can go in any direction after leaving the muzzle.

I'm blind, but I don't see spore powder anywhere (P). And that means that R is a part of the bullet, not cartridges, it would likely shatter on ignition. Bullets are small. very small. There isn't much space there to fit all of this. Spores alone are quite big, if Tress was able to pick up individual pieces.

I've never heard of that. There are bullets with round or flat tips but I've never heard of double tipped bullets. And I don't remember them from Era 2. None of the hazekiller rounds has a double tip. Look at Coppermind https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hazekiller 

Hand cannon? That's a late medieval gun.

Your gun doesn't have any ignition mechanism tbf, not to mention outside one. That's a big leap.

Yeah, cartridges are similar yet it took like 500 years to develop. I wonder why (rhetorical, I know why). In the early modern period they were using paper cartridges, first separate from bullets, later together.

Bleeding around is different that AOE. Bleeding makes it slightly less effective than line of sight, but still better than no aluminum.

Here's a redo, but with the sunlight added and the Spore poweder fixed (I accedently put S, and fixed it on the old picture). Also, have you ever seen the bottom of a sword fern? That's how large I was invisioning. Definitly too large for smaller sized modern bullets.

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Key:

I- Iron; S- Steel; P- SporePoweder; R- pre-grown Rosite; T- tip (aluminum, rosite, crimson, etc); A- Aluminum; (Whitespace)- gap or not part of design; C- Spore Charge; B- Backplate; E: else. M- Mirror;  W- water charge (surrounded by wax, fat, etc)

The gun:

                   SSSSS
                 SSMMMS
              SSM  SS MSS
SSSSSSSSSRRRSSSSSSSSSIIIASS
SSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIIIASS
EEE
EEE
EEE

A cartridge and bullet. (Stylized Rosite are separate pieces from differnt stylized)

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTT
RBWWRRIRRRR CC RTTTTT
RBPPR     IIIIIIIAS CCC    T
RBBRRRIRRRR CC RTTTTT
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTT

It's not double tipped, hollow tipped. Keep in mind this is a cross-section, it's kind of like a cookie cutter, except made to split open and shrapnel itself into the target. You can google it to get a look at modern ones, and it's definitely in the MAG Era 2, but I guess not actual Era 2. Anyways, aluminum hollow tips are often discussed for dealing with bloodmakers or radiants.

Prettymuch what I was thinking though.

True, because you could put a hole in it and toss a bullet (no cartridge in) or use sunlight spores or modern/awakened tech

Metal cartridges are hard to make. Have you read anything from the Grisha-verse? Manipulating rosite should allow for similar drops in tech level as fabriacators; (though not as widespread;) the hardest part of cartridges is getting them into the right shape and connect to the bullet properly (I assume). Rosite fixes those.

Edited May 30, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed

[CrypticSpren he/him]

Oh boy, it's been a while since I checked on 17th Shard... that being said, here's my thoughts overall.

 

General Comments:

Generally, it looks like y'all (@IlstrawberrySeed and @alder24) are asking for the spore gun to do completely different things. @alder24 is looking for what I think the original topic was about: a spore gun that serves the purpose of a gun for personal use. Something akin to a handgun. Maybe something along the lines of a rifle or shotgun.

Meanwhile, it looks like @IlstrawberrySeed is designing something way bigger:

On 5/30/2023 at 11:07 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Also, have you ever seen the bottom of a sword fern? That's how large I was invisioning. Definitly too large for smaller sized modern bullets.

I don't really know about military tech terminology, but I think when people talk about what you're discussing people usually say something along the lines of "anti-personnel heavy artillery rounds" as opposed to "bullets" .

As a general principle, all of @alder24 's assumptions critiques seem to have been spot on under the assumption that you are making a gun that you can actually hold. But some are non-issues for heavy artillery, and none of @IlstrawberrySeed's replies have addressed that.

Or maybe I just totally misunderstood @IlstrawberrySeed. In that case, let me know.

 

Specific comments:

Confusion: I still don't understand the ignition mechanism. What's up with the wax? How does pulling the trigger actually make the water in the cartridge trigger the spore powder?

Issue:

On 5/30/2023 at 11:07 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Metal cartridges are hard to make. Have you read anything from the Grisha-verse? Manipulating rosite should allow for similar drops in tech level as fabriacators; (though not as widespread;) the hardest part of cartridges is getting them into the right shape and connect to the bullet properly (I assume). Rosite fixes those.

I don't think roseite spores are analogous to metals for fabrikators. Roseite spores can only have their general direction of growth controlled with metals. And it makes crystals, not smooth surfaces. Furthermore, once the roseite is grown, it's kind of locked in place and can't be further machined. You'd need a person who has bonded the actual roseite aether to be like a fabrikator. The appeal of roseite is that you can quickly make hard, durable crystal in roughly the shape you want, as opposed to being able to get really precise shapes. I still think that standard metal bullets are probably the way to go.

 

Final thoughts -- on the philosophy of spore guns:

I think that we should generally think about one of the things that makes spore guns appealing before making suggestions: they are simple and cheap to use on Lumar. Spores are found in entire oceans and can keep if you just hold some as dry powder in a bucket. Ammunition, even for advanced artillery like cannons, doesn't require a factory. It can be created on a boat with some simple tools, spores, and a small silver spike.

Outside of Lumar, spores are expensive to get. So if you're in a position where you're fighting Allomancers and Radiants (i.e. probably in a more important part of the Cosmere), it probably isn't worth getting a spore gun, much less an Aluminum-loaded one. And if you have breaths, standard awakening techniques are probably your best form of combat.

Even within Lumar, if you need to precision machine cartridges to be able to use your gun, you've lost a little bit of what makes a spore gun cool and special.

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

Generally, it looks like y'all (@IlstrawberrySeed and @alder24) are asking for the spore gun to do completely different things. @alder24 is looking for what I think the original topic was about: a spore gun that serves the purpose of a gun for personal use. Something akin to a handgun. Maybe something along the lines of a rifle or shotgun.

Yes, what I imagine is more or less what Crow has on the image. An early modern pistol. If there is a working design for a pistol, it can be scaled up into a musket, which doesn't have that much bigger of a caliber. But I want this to remain in the early modern period. 

8 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

I don't really know about military tech terminology, but I think when people talk about what you're discussing people usually say something along the lines of "anti-personnel heavy artillery rounds" as opposed to "bullets" .

Yyyy, yes, if @IlstrawberrySeed wants it to be like an artillery gun, then yes, his design, with tweaks here and there, might work. An artillery shell (or mortar) is much bigger than a pistol round and it can have a strong roselit case, thick enough to withstand forces. But that thing won't “penetrate" a body, it will explode it into pieces. I think he just wants to have a bigger pistol, something like the Vindication - then it's almost impossible to make a bullet that small with so many details inside.

8 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

Final thoughts -- on the philosophy of spore guns:

I think that we should generally think about one of the things that makes spore guns appealing before making suggestions: they are simple and cheap to use on Lumar. Spores are found in entire oceans and can keep if you just hold some as dry powder in a bucket. Ammunition, even for advanced artillery like cannons, doesn't require a factory. It can be created on a boat with some simple tools, spores, and a small silver spike.

Outside of Lumar, spores are expensive to get. So if you're in a position where you're fighting Allomancers and Radiants (i.e. probably in a more important part of the Cosmere), it probably isn't worth getting a spore gun, much less an Aluminum-loaded one. And if you have breaths, standard awakening techniques are probably your best form of combat.

Even within Lumar, if you need to precision machine cartridges to be able to use your gun, you've lost a little bit of what makes a spore gun cool and special.

I agree, spore guns work only on Lumar. If you want to fight Allomancers or Radiants and you have access to aluminum - just use normal guns with aluminum bullets, gunpowder is much more accessible (especially in the futuristic time period events of Tress are taking place) than use Lumar's spore guns. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:57 PM, CrypticSpren said:

Oh boy, it's been a while since I checked on 17th Shard... that being said, here's my thoughts overall.

 

General Comments:

Generally, it looks like y'all (@IlstrawberrySeed and @alder24) are asking for the spore gun to do completely different things. @alder24 is looking for what I think the original topic was about: a spore gun that serves the purpose of a gun for personal use. Something akin to a handgun. Maybe something along the lines of a rifle or shotgun.

Meanwhile, it looks like @IlstrawberrySeed is designing something way bigger:

I don't really know about military tech terminology, but I think when people talk about what you're discussing people usually say something along the lines of "anti-personnel heavy artillery rounds" as opposed to "bullets" .

As a general principle, all of @alder24 's assumptions critiques seem to have been spot on under the assumption that you are making a gun that you can actually hold. But some are non-issues for heavy artillery, and none of @IlstrawberrySeed's replies have addressed that.

Or maybe I just totally misunderstood @IlstrawberrySeed. In that case, let me know.

 

Specific comments:

Confusion: I still don't understand the ignition mechanism. What's up with the wax? How does pulling the trigger actually make the water in the cartridge trigger the spore powder?

Issue:

I don't think roseite spores are analogous to metals for fabrikators. Roseite spores can only have their general direction of growth controlled with metals. And it makes crystals, not smooth surfaces. Furthermore, once the roseite is grown, it's kind of locked in place and can't be further machined. You'd need a person who has bonded the actual roseite aether to be like a fabrikator. The appeal of roseite is that you can quickly make hard, durable crystal in roughly the shape you want, as opposed to being able to get really precise shapes. I still think that standard metal bullets are probably the way to go.

 

Final thoughts -- on the philosophy of spore guns:

I think that we should generally think about one of the things that makes spore guns appealing before making suggestions: they are simple and cheap to use on Lumar. Spores are found in entire oceans and can keep if you just hold some as dry powder in a bucket. Ammunition, even for advanced artillery like cannons, doesn't require a factory. It can be created on a boat with some simple tools, spores, and a small silver spike.

Outside of Lumar, spores are expensive to get. So if you're in a position where you're fighting Allomancers and Radiants (i.e. probably in a more important part of the Cosmere), it probably isn't worth getting a spore gun, much less an Aluminum-loaded one. And if you have breaths, standard awakening techniques are probably your best form of combat.

Even within Lumar, if you need to precision machine cartridges to be able to use your gun, you've lost a little bit of what makes a spore gun cool and special.

 

I didn't think about the cost off-planet, or the likelihood that they will have to fight the power 9 on/near lumar. Of course, it could haver to fight colonization soon, or if it's colonized the spores may be used on one side.

On 6/4/2023 at 4:16 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, what I imagine is more or less what Crow has on the image. An early modern pistol. If there is a working design for a pistol, it can be scaled up into a musket, which doesn't have that much bigger of a caliber. But I want this to remain in the early modern period. 

Yyyy, yes, if @IlstrawberrySeed wants it to be like an artillery gun, then yes, his design, with tweaks here and there, might work. An artillery shell (or mortar) is much bigger than a pistol round and it can have a strong roselit case, thick enough to withstand forces. But that thing won't “penetrate" a body, it will explode it into pieces. I think he just wants to have a bigger pistol, something like the Vindication - then it's almost impossible to make a bullet that small with so many details inside.

I agree, spore guns work only on Lumar. If you want to fight Allomancers or Radiants and you have access to aluminum - just use normal guns with aluminum bullets, gunpowder is much more accessible (especially in the futuristic time period events of Tress are taking place) than use Lumar's spore guns. 

 

I was not thinking artillery, and I was thinking we had more control roseite after the initial burst than you guys (apparently). Without that to provide the machining required, my cartridge design is not possible. Additionally, I don't think a spore or 2 in a slightly larger than normal bullet is much of an issue.

Some questions on your opinions:

1. How big is too big for a slightly larger bullet? 
2. How big are aether spores compared to sword fern spores?
3. Is a front loader akin to our black powder possible?

I was thinking just under twice the diameter for this bullet, about the same size, and yes. If any of these are wrong, then artillery might be the only way for this to work.

Edited June 6, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed
akin, not skin

[CrypticSpren he/him]

I'm agreement with everything from @alder24's comment. I think I misunderstood the sword fern comment (see picture attached; I'm quite illiterate).

6 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

How big is too big for a slightly larger bullet? 

I think two or three times the size is fine? Just a gut feeling.

6 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

How big are aether spores compared to sword fern spores?

Probably much smaller than a sori of spores, likely larger than a single spore. Sand-speck size I would think. It's not really the "there are spores in this bullet" that doesn't work, and more so "there's layers of different metals in the back and trigger mechanism for those spores in this bullet" that makes the design too complicated.

I believe that early bullets are just cast metal; if that's the case then I'd imagine just dropping a couple of spores into the mold while making bullets wouldn't be very difficult. I wouldn't really recommend it though - most of the time, the spores wouldn't do anything since being encased in metal means they won't get wet on impact, and you also run the risk of the bullet blowing up inside your gun on ignition.

6 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Is a front loader skin to our black powder possible?

I have no idea what this means.

To be honest, I have high school/early undergraduate level physics/chem knowledge but that's about as far I go. I'm just confident enough to shoot down parts of your design that don't pass a common sense check.

My (former) roommate is the Mech E; I'm a computer science kid. I'm also really bad with guns. I'll miss a head-sized paper target at 25 yards with a .22 rifle more than half the time and I'm too weak to even be able to hold a shotgun correctly through a full box of shells. @alder24 seems to have a better handle on things.

 

Edit:

I realized that I never commented on the use of aluminum on my previous post. The claim:

On 5/30/2023 at 11:07 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Bleeding around is different that AOE. Bleeding makes it slightly less effective than line of sight, but still better than no aluminum.

I'm not entirely convinced of this. I haven't worked much with superconductors and stuff that bends fields generally, but I get the impression that oftentimes the behaviors of things that start and end far from the thing that bends the field tends not to be affected very much by the bent field. So putting a layer of aluminum in the design may add complexity to and decrease the durability of gun for no or very little effect. I'd have to look more into the physics to give a definite answer though.

Edited June 5, 2023 by CrypticSpren
Aluminum comments

[Frustration he/him]

On 6/4/2023 at 5:16 AM, alder24 said:

I agree, spore guns work only on Lumar. If you want to fight Allomancers or Radiants and you have access to aluminum - just use normal guns with aluminum bullets, gunpowder is much more accessible (especially in the futuristic time period events of Tress are taking place) than use Lumar's spore guns. 

I don't know about that Rosite spores would make imobilizing both of them much easier. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

My (former) roommate is the Mech E; I'm a computer science kid. I'm also really bad with guns. I'll miss a head-sized paper target at 25 yards with a .22 rifle more than half the time and I'm too weak to even be able to hold a shotgun correctly through a full box of shells. @alder24 seems to have a better handle on things.

Not really. I'm using common sense, just like you, with basic science and some help from google. I'm in no way expert. If being good with guns qualifies someone for one, then I failed from the start as I've never held a gun in my life.

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't know about that Rosite spores would make imobilizing both of them much easier. 

They can be handy, but there is no need to develop a bullet made out of Aethers. Just use incendiary design. Or better, use Tress' flare gun.

19 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

• How big are aether spores compared to sword fern spores?

Roseite spores were described as grains of salt. They have to be small enough to be spores, but large for them to be picked up individually by hand. But as it was pointed out, it's not the spore size that matters - few spores can patch a cannon-sized hole, so you don't need much of them. But you do need a proper isolation and mechanism of ignition, which would work when you want it to work. And that's harder to fit inside the bullet with multiple different metal layers, especially the one made out of Aether. It's getting too complicated too fast with too many failure points. Tress, ch 26:

Quote

Last of all, she opened the aluminum box of spores. They looked like grains of pink salt. Trembling, she tipped the box until a few of them dribbled out onto the edge of the broken wood.

[...]

With her other hand, she grabbed a tiny pinch of two or three spores.

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

I'm agreement with everything from @alder24's comment. I think I misunderstood the sword fern comment (see picture attached; I'm quite illiterate).

I think two or three times the size is fine? Just a gut feeling.

Probably much smaller than a sori of spores, likely larger than a single spore. Sand-speck size I would think. It's not really the "there are spores in this bullet" that doesn't work, and more so "there's layers of different metals in the back and trigger mechanism for those spores in this bullet" that makes the design too complicated.

I believe that early bullets are just cast metal; if that's the case then I'd imagine just dropping a couple of spores into the mold while making bullets wouldn't be very difficult. I wouldn't really recommend it though - most of the time, the spores wouldn't do anything since being encased in metal means they won't get wet on impact, and you also run the risk of the bullet blowing up inside your gun on ignition.

I have no idea what this means.

To be honest, I have high school/early undergraduate level physics/chem knowledge but that's about as far I go. I'm just confident enough to shoot down parts of your design that don't pass a common sense check.

My (former) roommate is the Mech E; I'm a computer science kid. I'm also really bad with guns. I'll miss a head-sized paper target at 25 yards with a .22 rifle more than half the time and I'm too weak to even be able to hold a shotgun correctly through a full box of shells. @alder24 seems to have a better handle on things.

 

Edit:

I realized that I never commented on the use of aluminum on my previous post. The claim:

I'm not entirely convinced of this. I haven't worked much with superconductors and stuff that bends fields generally, but I get the impression that oftentimes the behaviors of things that start and end far from the thing that bends the field tends not to be affected very much by the bent field. So putting a layer of aluminum in the design may add complexity to and decrease the durability of gun for no or very little effect. I'd have to look more into the physics to give a definite answer though.

That's good.

Alder describes them as salt, so slightly smaller seems like the answer.

Pretty much what I thought. Hence why not using said design.

Suposed to be "akin," not "skin." I've used a black poweder rifle once or twice in my life- you have to pour the black poweder into the barrel, then stuff the bullet down with a rod. Similar to a canon, but smaller. Something similar (not rifeling though) should be possible with spore poweder and non-spherical bullets. Is that within their tech level though, or only slightly past it?

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really. I'm using common sense, just like you, with basic science and some help from google. I'm in no way expert. If being good with guns qualifies someone for one, then I failed from the start as I've never held a gun in my life.

They can be handy, but there is no need to develop a bullet made out of Aethers. Just use incendiary design. Or better, use Tress' flare gun.

Roseite spores were described as grains of salt. They have to be small enough to be spores, but large for them to be picked up individually by hand. But as it was pointed out, it's not the spore size that matters - few spores can patch a cannon-sized hole, so you don't need much of them. But you do need a proper isolation and mechanism of ignition, which would work when you want it to work. And that's harder to fit inside the bullet with multiple different metal layers, especially the one made out of Aether. It's getting too complicated too fast with too many failure points. Tress, ch 26:

 

Tress's flare gun uses internal spores on a miss, this may drop some, but shouldn't trigger them.

The "trigger" is the targets blood, as the bullet breaks inside. There isn't ignition/isolation inside the bullet. In the casing? Yes, I can see that could be an issue - especially if using a cartridge style. But if we switch it to a Black Powder rifle style, then we use a water cartridge of wax, followed by some spores, and then the wadding & bullet, then it shouldn't be that bad.
 

Make a metal container, thin as possible; with holes. Coat it in wax; again thin as possible.

1. Put water charge in barrel.
2. Pour sporepowder (zepehr spores, possibly sunlight) in barrel
3. Put wadding on barrel and insert bullet
4. Ram rod it to the back of the barrel.
5. Pour sunlight spores into over-barrel.

Pulling the trigger applies a drop of water to the sunlight spores.

[CrypticSpren he/him]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really. I'm using common sense, just like you, with basic science and some help from google. I'm in no way expert. If being good with guns qualifies someone for one, then I failed from the start as I've never held a gun in my life.

Well your insight has been pretty darn good for someone also going off of common sense . Nice find on the spore size.

8 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Suposed to be "akin," not "skin." I've used a black poweder rifle once or twice in my life- you have to pour the black poweder into the barrel, then stuff the bullet down with a rod. Similar to a canon, but smaller. Something similar (not rifeling though) should be possible with spore poweder and non-spherical bullets. Is that within their tech level though, or only slightly past it?

Tress's flare gun uses internal spores on a miss, this may drop some, but shouldn't trigger them.

The "trigger" is the targets blood, as the bullet breaks inside. There isn't ignition/isolation inside the bullet. In the casing? Yes, I can see that could be an issue - especially if using a cartridge style. But if we switch it to a Black Powder rifle style, then we use a water cartridge of wax, followed by some spores, and then the wadding & bullet, then it shouldn't be that bad.
 

Make a metal container, thin as possible; with holes. Coat it in wax; again thin as possible.

1. Put water charge in barrel.
2. Pour sporepowder (zepehr spores, possibly sunlight) in barrel
3. Put wadding on barrel and insert bullet
4. Ram rod it to the back of the barrel.
5. Pour sunlight spores into over-barrel.

Pulling the trigger applies a drop of water to the sunlight spores.

Oh, this is cool. Definitely much less of a stretch than fancy cartridges! I will say, though I've fired black powder once before, someone else did the prep for me so I had to do some reading up on the mechanisms .

The one thing that I am worried about with this design is the water cartridge. Firstly, it seems like it would be easy to accidentally break the water charge when using the ram rod. Secondly, wax could gunk up the back of the gun after repeated usages.

The immediately obvious solution is, instead of having sunlight spores light a flame that travels down the touch hole and melts the wax, we just pour water directly down the touch hole.

However, I'm not sure how you'd get a good mechanism for getting a consistent amount of water down the touch hole. Because water is sticky. If the touch hole is small (which it must be, in order for the majority of the gas to expand down the barrel), capillary action is going to make how much a drop of water slides down it be unpredictable. And we actually do need a consistent amount - if there isn't enough water that goes in, the gun won't fire properly, but if there is too much water, then the gun won't be dry for the next shot and activate when spore powder is spilled down the barrel.

I still think that something along these lines is a better approach than a wax cartridge though. Let me know if y'all have any ideas.

 

Edit: I posted before I responded to everything, whoopsie.

On 6/5/2023 at 7:52 PM, Frustration said:

I don't know about that Rosite spores would make imobilizing both of them much easier. 

Hmm. I'd think you'd want Verdant spores for immobilization; Roseite is just going to push people. That's what Tress uses them for after all. I suppose after further consideration, other forms of immobilization (i.e. Awakening) are probably more expensive than spore guns. I'll give credit where credit is due: spore guns may have a small niche in the greater Cosmere as a means of immobilizing enemies with something cheaper than breaths.

Also, in reading up on different spore types, I found this WOB. So Zephyr must only have trace amounts of ozone, as it wouldn't be very safe to breath otherwise.

Edited June 7, 2023 by CrypticSpren
Response to @Frustration; WOB

[IlstrawberrySeed]

12 hours ago, CrypticSpren said:

Oh, this is cool. Definitely much less of a stretch than fancy cartridges! I will say, though I've fired black powder once before, someone else did the prep for me so I had to do some reading up on the mechanisms .

The one thing that I am worried about with this design is the water cartridge. Firstly, it seems like it would be easy to accidentally break the water charge when using the ram rod. Secondly, wax could gunk up the back of the gun after repeated usages.

The immediately obvious solution is, instead of having sunlight spores light a flame that travels down the touch hole and melts the wax, we just pour water directly down the touch hole.

However, I'm not sure how you'd get a good mechanism for getting a consistent amount of water down the touch hole. Because water is sticky. If the touch hole is small (which it must be, in order for the majority of the gas to expand down the barrel), capillary action is going to make how much a drop of water slides down it be unpredictable. And we actually do need a consistent amount - if there isn't enough water that goes in, the gun won't fire properly, but if there is too much water, then the gun won't be dry for the next shot and activate when spore powder is spilled down the barrel.

I still think that something along these lines is a better approach than a wax cartridge though. Let me know if y'all have any ideas.

 

Edit: I posted before I responded to everything, whoopsie.

Hmm. I'd think you'd want Verdant spores for immobilization; Roseite is just going to push people. That's what Tress uses them for after all. I suppose after further consideration, other forms of immobilization (i.e. Awakening) are probably more expensive than spore guns. I'll give credit where credit is due: spore guns may have a small niche in the greater Cosmere as a means of immobilizing enemies with something cheaper than breaths.

Also, in reading up on different spore types, I found this WOB. So Zephyr must only have trace amounts of ozone, as it wouldn't be very safe to breath otherwise.

It's basically the same as the cartridge, but the water and spores aren't attached to the bullet.

That is a concern, And I didn't think of the clogging. However, I've been working hard to avoid putting a hole - the sunlight spores melt the wax through a glass/rosite section, not by lighting a fuse.

A dropper would work, and those shouldn't be too hard to get from worldhoppers, but hard to make in world. You could use midnight essence or a few breaths, but that is expensive or finiky. We could use a wet barrel and dump spores in, but again, that's either complex or not airtight. Unfortunately, with the gumming issue, I think we either need barrel covers that you pull out each time or to just use a non-airtight method. (Dropping the sunlight spores all together.)

[CrypticSpren he/him]

On 6/7/2023 at 0:34 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

However, I've been working hard to avoid putting a hole - the sunlight spores melt the wax through a glass/rosite section, not by lighting a fuse.

I'm not using a fuse, just a touch hole. Regular black powder flintlock rifles do this too, and it's fine. When the trigger is pulled, flint is struck down onto metal above a flash pan, sending a spark down to ignite a powder in it. The hot gas from the resultant mini-explosion goes up a touch hole that lights the powder in the barrel. Since the touch hole is small this is OK.

I assumed your design would be very similar. I don't think going through a roseite or glass section would work very well. Heat transfer is not instantaneous, so it's already a slight stretch for enough heat to go from sunlight -> wax to consistently melt the cartridge with a touch hole, and improbable without one.

TLDR, I think we should drop being airtight as a goal entirely.

On 6/7/2023 at 0:34 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

A dropper would work, and those shouldn't be too hard to get from worldhoppers, but hard to make in world.

Yeah, a pipette type of thing would be really nice here. Really, I think the key to getting a consistent amount of water is releasing it in a pressurized squirt instead of just letting gravity do the work so there's enough forces for surface tension and adhesion not to matter. I can't think of anything more simple than a dropper.

I guess a wet sponged that gets squeezed when the trigger is pulled could also technically work, but that seems really prone to generating misfires.

I will say, it might be worth digging into the book to see how the ignition mechanisms for Crow's gun and the ship cannons work. Brandon may have done some of the work here for us in this domain.

On 6/7/2023 at 0:34 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

You could use midnight essence or a few breaths, but that is expensive or finiky.

Yeah. Midnight essence is expensive on the user to use, breaths are expensive to get. Not good options.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:10 PM, CrypticSpren said:

I'm not using a fuse, just a touch hole. Regular black powder flintlock rifles do this too, and it's fine. When the trigger is pulled, flint is struck down onto metal above a flash pan, sending a spark down to ignite a powder in it. The hot gas from the resultant mini-explosion goes up a touch hole that lights the powder in the barrel. Since the touch hole is small this is OK.

I assumed your design would be very similar. I don't think going through a roseite or glass section would work very well. Heat transfer is not instantaneous, so it's already a slight stretch for enough heat to go from sunlight -> wax to consistently melt the cartridge with a touch hole, and improbable without one.

TLDR, I think we should drop being airtight as a goal entirely.

Yeah, a pipette type of thing would be really nice here. Really, I think the key to getting a consistent amount of water is releasing it in a pressurized squirt instead of just letting gravity do the work so there's enough forces for surface tension and adhesion not to matter. I can't think of anything more simple than a dropper.

I guess a wet sponged that gets squeezed when the trigger is pulled could also technically work, but that seems really prone to generating misfires.

I will say, it might be worth digging into the book to see how the ignition mechanisms for Crow's gun and the ship cannons work. Brandon may have done some of the work here for us in this domain.

Yeah. Midnight essence is expensive on the user to use, breaths are expensive to get. Not good options.

I guess. We could do something like a sponge on a stick, and pulling the trigger slams it into a grate above the spores. Still not great, definetly worse than a screw in dropper, but it is what it is.

Midnight essence isn't actually necessarily all that expensive. Hollow the handle and fill it with water. Pulling the trigger allows you to touch the water at the same time a single midnight spore is wet, and a silver thing cuts the black line after the .2 seconds required to get the ME to move a drop of water. The real question is how expensive it is to get ME to move water without absorbing it, compared to moving a simple object.