End- Positive, Negative, and Neutral

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I hope this has not been discussed before - at the least, I did not see it elsewhere.

In the Ars Arcanum from Alloy of Law, we get the now-famous breakdown of the Metallic Arts. One thing there really caught my eye above all others - the terminology of "End-Positive," "End-Negative," and "End-Neutral". The fact that the writer bills this as some ongoing terminology of their own, rather than a description unique to Scadrial, made me ponder. Do these terms describe the other arts we've seen so far adequately?

Allomancy gets compared directly to AonDor. That seems logical - AonDor is drawing its power from the Dor, and is thus End-Positive. The description implies that the other Investures of Sel might fit under the same category, though I am not so sure. The Drakhor methods appear to require sacrificing multiple lives to attain their power, which seems End-Negative to me.

Awakening, meanwhile, seems largely End-Neutral, since it's all about transferring Breaths from one form to another. Nightblood is End-Negative, but only when he's drawn. I was unsure how to classify the Returned: they consume Breaths as they go, but start out by Returning with a huge store of Breath, presumably directly from the Shard. Of all the systems of magic we mostly understand, that one seems to defy the classification to me. Does anyone else have a theory about it?

Or any of this?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[happyman he/him]

I would add that if I had to guess, ChayShan, the other Selian magic we know of, is probably end-neutral, like Feruchemy.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I thought about mentioning that, since ChayShan appears to need time to build up its power, but we just know so little about it, and the writer does talk about Sel's magic as a whole being End-Positive (which I do not yet understand).

[discipleofhoid he/him]

Awakening, meanwhile, seems largely End-Neutral, since it's all about transferring Breaths from one form to another. Nightblood is End-Negative, but only when he's drawn. I was unsure how to classify the Returned: they consume Breaths as they go, but start out by Returning with a huge store of Breath, presumably directly from the Shard. Of all the systems of magic we mostly understand, that one seems to defy the classification to me. Does anyone else have a theory about it?

Or any of this?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I don't think that awakening can be end-neutral. If it was it would require some kind of storage of magic or abilities in order to use it. It doesn't, the breaths can be used and recovered over and over again one right after the other as long as there is color. This implies an End-positive system to me. I don't think the returned are a separate magic system from Awakening either - They seem to be more of a special case within awakening.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

A single Breath has a defined amount of power, which can be used in various ways, transferred, etc. Sometimes, it can be put into a vessel to do its thing, then recovered, like memories from a Coppermind. Sometimes, you release it, and it's gone (into a Lifeless, say), like most other Feruchemical attributes. Either way, it is a distinct energy which can be traced and neither gets stronger nor weaker from use. Sounds End-Neutral to me!

I have considered that Returned might effectively be Lifeless created by the Shard itself, but that leads me in to a larger theory:

End-Positive, End-Negative, and End-Neutral aren't just applicable to all forms of magic, they tell us something specific about how the magic really functions.

End-Positive arts aren't just creating energy out of nowhere (I suspect that, even in the Cosmere, that's impossible), they draw it from the appropriate Shard (and, perhaps, from other beings, as well). So, Allomancy uses metals to tap the power of Preservation, AonDor uses symbols to tap the power of the Dor, and Surgebinding appears to use Stormlight to tap an outside power as well. Returned, representing a sizeable investment of power seeming directly by Endowment should fit here, although I still think I'm missing a key piece of the puzzle there.

End-Neutral arts still seem tied in some way to the resident Shard, but do not rely directly upon them in any form (note, for example, Feruchemy existing before Rashek went to the Well Of Ascension). Their use, then, is limited in some way by the human form - Feruchemy needs time to fill, ChayShan requires you to not break your rhythm, BioChroma needs a source of Breaths.

End-Negative arts raise some questions for me. They seem to be directly set into motion by Shards, like End-Positive arts, but not fueled by them. Maybe that's all there is to it. I considered that maybe the Shard is taking the excess power, but I think Sazed would have noted that when he described Feruchemy. For now, I will assume that a Shard setting up magic and then not providing the fuel results in one of these.

With me so far? Then let's try to extrapolate something else. Surgebinding is an End-Positive Art. It uses Stormlight as the catalyst to draw upon the power of Honor. Then it disappeared. Why? Honor died. (When the Knights Radiant set aside their weapons, they seemed to still have Surgebinding.) And now, it is showing up again, which seems to invalidate the theory... but it still is getting fuel from somewhere. For example, when Shallan and Jasnath use their Surgebinding, they end up having to deal with some very sinister entities in Shadesmar. From this, I conclude that without a Shard to fuel End-Positive Arts, they might still exist, provided that something else fuels them, though it probably won't be able to do so on the same scale as a true Shard... and may have terms of its own. Thus, I suspect that some unknown entity (or maybe one for each of them) is contributing to the powers of Szeth and Kaladin, for its own reasons.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. EDIT: I am taking it as a good omen that, mere minutes after posting this theory, I saw in the Way Of Kings threads that in an interview, Brandon Sanderson said that Szeth's powers are not gained the same way as Kaladin's.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Deus Ex Biotica

[discipleofhoid he/him]

A single Breath has a defined amount of power, which can be used in various ways, transferred, etc. Sometimes, it can be put into a vessel to do its thing, then recovered, like memories from a Coppermind. Sometimes, you release it, and it's gone (into a Lifeless, say), like most other Feruchemical attributes. Either way, it is a distinct energy which can be traced and neither gets stronger nor weaker from use. Sounds End-Neutral to me!

I don't know if I can agree with parts of this. Two parts in specific:

1.)In the only confirmed end-neutral system we have the power is drawn from the user when being stored and equal amounts of power are later available for their use.(15 secs of 50% weight gives 15 sec of 150% weight.) In Awakening you gather 50 breaths and you can do 50 breaths worth of magic over and over again there is no limit on the length or number of awakenings. Energy for that is not coming from inside the system and thus must be coming from outside of the system making it end-positive.

To me a end-neutral system is one with no magical entropy within the system. A end-positive has negative entropy within the system and end-negative has increasing entropy.(Note that this is within the system only.)

2.) Breath is not lost when creating a lifeless. It just sticks to the lifeless and cannot be retrieved it is still there powering the lifeless. The only two things that we know of that actually consume breath are nightblood and returned.

To sum up what I am saying - I don't think breath works as an energy source. Brandon has been careful to include most laws of physics and if breath is an infinite energy source 80% of physics goes out the window. I don't think the laws of thermodynamics are being broken here. That means breath cannot be the energy source. (conduit for the energy probably but not the source.)

Also note that in the only confirmed end-neutral system the power does get weaker when used and stronger when stored.

Edited November 23, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

A single Breath has a defined amount of power, which can be used in various ways, transferred, etc. Sometimes, it can be put into a vessel to do its thing, then recovered, like memories from a Coppermind. Sometimes, you release it, and it's gone (into a Lifeless, say), like most other Feruchemical attributes. Either way, it is a distinct energy which can be traced and neither gets stronger nor weaker from use. Sounds End-Neutral to me!

I have considered that Returned might effectively be Lifeless created by the Shard itself, but that leads me in to a larger theory...

We do know that the Returned's breath is actually a Splinter of the Shard Endowment, LINK SO I think they are part of the same type of magic system, but wholly different from Awakening in general. They are more akin to (if the theories are right and Brandon has said we're close) Seons/Skaze than they are to Awakeners. They do make great Awakeners since they are using the Shard's power more directly however. There is also text in Warbreaker to indicate that different breaths even of normal people are more powerful than others. I think of this as similar to Allomancers having different Allomantic strength than others.

As to whether Awakening is End-Neutral or something else... there is an argument to be made that it is end-negative since you have to power it with the breaths of others. Hemalurgy is stated as "End-negative" and "at its core...deals with removing abilities, or attributes, from one person and bestowing them on another." Draining color is similar in my mind to burning metals, that isn't the power itself, it is the catalyst or fuel necessary to access that power. Hemalurgic allomancers still need metals to do anything, similarly Awakeners take the breath of another, and with that their abilities/attributes ("health", "awareness", "immune system", "life span"), reducing them to drabs... and then they use color as a catalyst for accessing the power of Endowment's Shard to endow animation to that which is without animation. We do know from Brandon that you can do Hemalurgy on someone without killing them, but it severely alters that person. Similar to becoming a Drab, but at least Drabness is reversible, I doubt that you can gain that part of your spirit which is ripped from you in Hemalurgy back, even if you are the one to gains that Hemalurgic spike.

End-Positive arts aren't just creating energy out of nowhere (I suspect that, even in the Cosmere, that's impossible), they draw it from the appropriate Shard (and, perhaps, from other beings, as well). So, Allomancy uses metals to tap the power of Preservation, AonDor uses symbols to tap the power of the Dor, and Surgebinding appears to use Stormlight to tap an outside power as well. Returned, representing a sizeable investment of power seeming directly by Endowment should fit here, although I still think I'm missing a key piece of the puzzle there.

End-Neutral arts still seem tied in some way to the resident Shard, but do not rely directly upon them in any form (note, for example, Feruchemy existing before Rashek went to the Well Of Ascension). Their use, then, is limited in some way by the human form - Feruchemy needs time to fill, ChayShan requires you to not break your rhythm, BioChroma needs a source of Breaths.

End-Negative arts raise some questions for me. They seem to be directly set into motion by Shards, like End-Positive arts, but not fueled by them. Maybe that's all there is to it. I considered that maybe the Shard is taking the excess power, but I think Sazed would have noted that when he described Feruchemy. For now, I will assume that a Shard setting up magic and then not providing the fuel results in one of these.

With me so far? Then let's try to extrapolate something else. Surgebinding is an End-Positive Art. It uses Stormlight as the catalyst to draw upon the power of Honor. Then it disappeared. Why? Honor died. (When the Knights Radiant set aside their weapons, they seemed to still have Surgebinding.) And now, it is showing up again, which seems to invalidate the theory... but it still is getting fuel from somewhere. For example, when Shallan and Jasnath use their Surgebinding, they end up having to deal with some very sinister entities in Shadesmar. From this, I conclude that without a Shard to fuel End-Positive Arts, they might still exist, provided that something else fuels them, though it probably won't be able to do so on the same scale as a true Shard... and may have terms of its own. Thus, I suspect that some unknown entity (or maybe one for each of them) is contributing to the powers of Szeth and Kaladin, for its own reasons.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. EDIT: I am taking it as a good omen that, mere minutes after posting this theory, I saw in the Way Of Kings threads that in an interview, Brandon Sanderson said that Szeth's powers are not gained the same way as Kaladin's.

I have issues with this section for a couple of reasons. The Magic systems of each world aren't "developed" by the Shards, they are an interaction of the Shard's power with the Spiritual/Cognitive/Physical realms of the world that a Shard "inhabits". So to say that this power or that is "set in motion" by the Shard is an incorrect view of it. Allomancy wasn't designed by Preservation to access the power of creation, it is the natural outflow of Preservation and that Shard's interaction with the 3 Realms on Scadrial.

The premise that an unknown entity(ies) is/are "granting" powers to Kaladin/Szeth/Shallan/Jasnah is missing the mark as well I think, based on my above statements. People of the worlds don't lose their ability to access the magics of a world even when a Shard has "died". We have the example of Leras dying, but allomancy still works, Aona/Skai were killed, but AonDor/Dhakor magic still worked, AonDor was just blocked because of the Chasm.

So the fact that Honor is dead should be irrelevant in whether people are able to access Surgebinding magics. It may well be that Stormlight is simply a common catalyst for accessing the 3 Shards of Roshar's powers. So even if Szeth is doing similar things in use of Stormlight/Surgebinding, he may well be accessing Cultivation's power or even Odium's power instead of Honor's, maybe that is why he is Truthless... because he betrayed Honor/honor for power?

Brandon has said there are "30 Magic systems ... depending on how you look at it." Maybe there is only 1 magic system that is interpreted 10 different ways by 3 Shards?

I will say however that the Old Magic from Roshar seems to be a sort of End-Neutral Art, you lose something to gain something else.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[discipleofhoid he/him]

As to whether Awakening is End-Neutral or something else... there is an argument to be made that it is end-negative since you have to power it with the breaths of others.

I think we need to look at the actual definitions of End-Positive, End-Neutral and End-Negitive. From AofL

It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source.

Feruchemy is an end-neutral art, meaning that power is neither gained nor lost.

Hemalurgy is an end-negative art. Some power is lost in the practice of it.

If breaths were consumed as a fuel - then yes this would be end-negative. With awakening that is never the case.

With Awakening the power seems to be coming from an outside source - just like with Allomancy or AonDor.

Nightblood on the other hand is a different story.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I think we need to look at the actual definitions of End-Positive, End-Neutral and End-Negitive. From AofL

If breaths were consumed as a fuel - then yes this would be end-negative. With awakening that is never the case.

With Awakening the power seems to be coming from an outside source - just like with Allomancy or AonDor.

Nightblood on the other hand is a different story.

That is true. What we don't know is whether there is some small loss of the power or 'strength' of a Breath over time as it is transfered to and from hosts. Hemalurgy loses power only when it is outside of a body, so you have the time to spike, pull it out and then properly spike the recipient where it is losing power, but even that power loss can't be significant over time as Vin's earring spike was mostly out of her body by the time we meet her at the beginning of Final Empire, yet when she starts to wear it more often come Well of Ascension she still has the power to pierce copper clouds. There is also the Koloss re-use of spikes to create new Koloss, where they would gather the spikes and keep them in a bag, but those spikes were still sufficient to create a new Koloss without a noticeable decrease in power...

Breaths on the other hand transfer almost immediately from host to host so their loss of power may not be significant, even in the long run, possibly the loss isn't even noticeable on a "human" scale and the breath could pass back and forth for decades and not lose enough power to be noticeable.

But Vasher does say that different breaths have different strengths, maybe that is because some of the weaker ones are "older" breaths passed around more than "newer" ones?

There is also the taking of attributes and giving them to others aspect that the passing of Breath mirrors from Hemalurgy.

In the Q&A on 11/10, Brandon mentioned that anyone on Nalthis could gain Breaths regardless of what planet they are from, similarly anyone can use Hemalurgy based on the end of the Ars Arcanum from AoL ("...most use to the cosmere..."). So they are both Arts that can travel, or seemingly so.

The fact that Nightblood, and the Splinters/Returned actually consume breath to power themselves is for me and IMO icing on the proverbial cake that the use of Breaths in Awakening is an End-Negative Art

[discipleofhoid he/him]

But Vasher does say that different breaths have different strengths, maybe that is because some of the weaker ones are "older" breaths passed around more than "newer" ones?

I will give you the possibility of breath decaying over time. There is no evidence to support it and IMO it is unlikely but I can't think of any evidence against it either. However the different size of breath thing occurs naturally. I think the following quote implies this.

“She is quite healthy,” the healer said to Bluefingers. “And most likely

still a maiden. She also has a very strong Breath.”

[Aiken Frost he/him]

I believe, by the definitions we are given (and GHM quoted) that Awakening is firmly in the End-Neutral classification, exactly like Feruchemy. The why is because while there is no decay or permanent expense of Breath in its execution, there is also no gain in it.

When you awake something, you "lock" those Breaths in the object, but you can retrieve them later and use them over and over. But, if you keep the breaths locked in an object, you can't use them during that period. There is no loss of Breath, but there is no gain either. If you don't hold those Breaths, you will not generate any more, like with Allomancy.

It works like Feruchemy: you store your attribute, "locking" part of it in a metalmind for the storage period and then "retrieve" the attribute for the same coefficient. Same amount of energy goes, same amount of energy comes back.

I could be convinced that it is in the End-Negative class, though. While the Breaths are "permanent" you do have to lose something in the Awakening process: color. Other than that, tough, I'm putting my money in End-Neutral.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Based on my theory about what Positive, Negative, and Neutral really mean, I think I must revise my guess to Negative, as well. It seems to fit the archetype of magic the Shard provided, but does not fuel.

[Wispsy he/him]

Eh allomancy is end positive, when you are invested with enough of preservation you can access power by using up metals right, that's what makes it positive. The fact that metals run out doesn't make this negative as its coming from outside. When you awaken an object yes you give it a load of breaths, but you can get them all back, what is used up is colour, that's not a part of you, that's just like metal getting used up, the strength of the colour even works like the purity of the alloys, less bright = less effect

This suggests it is end positive, as you don't lose power (the breaths are still yours alone to take out) it comes from an outside source.

The fact that returned and nightblood consume

Breath is a little awkward! However perhaps to power consciousness/sentience/life actually consumes a small part of endowments power, not entirely sure :/

[happyman he/him]

I would have to go with the idea that most aspects of Awakening are end-Neutral. I think the analogy with Feruchemy is quite good; you endow breaths on things, and the awakening does something, and then you get it back with no loss. The color disappearing doesn't mean any more than the metal disappearing in Allomancy.

Nightblood and Returned, on the other hand, seem to be end-Negative, without question. So it's an interesting question, and one that's hard to resolve.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Awakening seems to have aspects of all three types.

If we assume a Breath to be a unit of energy (and a Divine Breath to be unit of energy several hundred times as powerful as a Breath):

Birth is ends-positive - it creates a Breath.

Awakening is ends-neutral - no breaths are consumed or created, just transferred.

Awakening a Lifeless is also ends-neutral - the Breath can't be recovered, but it's still there. It isn't consumed. (incidentally, could a Lifeless give it's Breath to somebody else?)

Death is ends-negative - it destroys whatever Breaths the dying person holds without any corresponding outflow of energy.

Returning is ends-positive - it creates a Divine Breath.

Living as a Returned is ends-negative - it consumes Breath

Giving up your Divine Breath is ends-neutral - although it uses up the Divine Breath, the energy released by the Breath is not consumed, it is used to heal someone.

Creating Nightblood was ends-neutral (probably) - the Breaths are probably still in Nightblood.

Wielding Nightblood is ends-negative (probably) - wielding Nightblood consumes Breaths, and the energy of the Breaths is apparently consumed unused.

If indeed Awakening has all three aspects, I wonder if this is because it is the only magic system on Nalthis, or if this is a coincidence.

Also, a parallel should be drawn to the chemistry terms "exothermic" and "endothermic". They're not entirely the same as ends-positive and ends-negative, but neither are they entirely different.

[Wispsy he/him]

If returned giving up their breath to heal someone isn't negative then I'm not sure nightblood is either, did u read about the crazy destruction he caused whilst drawing those breaths? xD

[Zas678 he/him]

Death is ends-negative - it destroys whatever Breaths the dying person holds without any corresponding outflow of energy.

I'm not so sure. I would actually say that Death is end-neutral. After all, Drabs can't become Returned. This seems to imply that the Breath stays with you- even if you can't give it to others at that point.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I'm not so sure. I would actually say that Death is end-neutral. After all, Drabs can't become Returned. This seems to imply that the Breath stays with you- even if you can't give it to others at that point.

Hm... That's a good point. I wonder if there's a time limit on being Returned? If you've been dead a century, could you be Returned? a year? a day? an hour? a second? The only Returning we've seen so far was Lightsong's (and that one we learned about secondhand).

If there is a time limit, it implies that the Breath does eventually leave a dead person. If not, then yes, I agree that death is ends-neutral.

Also, to be clear, there is a distinction between whether people do Return long after death, and whether they can return long after death. I suspect that people who are given the chance to Return are given the chance once, when they die, and that's it, but does not necessarily preclude the ability to Return later, just the opportunity.

[Kurkistan he/him]

To sum up what I am saying - I don't think breath works as an energy source. Brandon has been careful to include most laws of physics and if breath is an infinite energy source 80% of physics goes out the window. I don't think the laws of thermodynamics are being broken here. That means breath cannot be the energy source. (conduit for the energy probably but not the source.)

Also note that in the only confirmed end-neutral system the power does get weaker when used and stronger when stored.

Actually, feruchemy, the definitive "end-neutral" magic system, has already been shown to be capable of producing infinite energy. So while "does it produce energy?" is a good rule of thumb for end-neutral systems, a magic system isn't necessarily disqualified if it can be finagled into producing energy.

[happyman he/him]

Actually, feruchemy, the definitive "end-neutral" magic system, has already been shown to be capable of producing infinite energy. So while "does it produce energy?" is a good rule of thumb for end-neutral systems, a magic system isn't necessarily disqualified if it can be finagled into producing energy.

"Feruchemy" being used for Compounding is really using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemical characteristics. Feruchemy without Allomancy is end-Neutral. Allomancy is end-Positive, and through a clever loophole can be used to fuel attributes normally attributed to Feruchemy.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

"Feruchemy" being used for Compounding is really using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemical characteristics. Feruchemy without Allomancy is end-Neutral. Allomancy is end-Positive, and through a clever loophole can be used to fuel attributes normally attributed to Feruchemy.

Kurkistan wasn't referring to Compounding. He was referring to using weight storage to create a perpetual motion machine. Basically, you take a large seesaw, and put an Iron Ferring on one side. She stores weight, and her side goes up. She taps weight, and her side goes down. Repeat, and you have infinite energy. Since tapping and storing apparently takes minimal energy, energy is produced by the system, although not by the Feruchemy directly.

There are several ways of creating the machine, but they basically work on the principle that changing the mass of a fast moving or high object creates a greater change in the energy of that object then changing the mass of a slow moving or low object does. Therefore, adding mass to a high/fast object adds more energy to the system then removing mass from a low/slow object takes away.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Sir_Read-a-Lot